So I was recently in a situation in which a Judge made a *****ty call that lead to me losing a game 3 that I otherwise would have won (for a SSG Qualifier event).
I was playing naya burn, my opponent was playing 4c gifts. It was late game, and I was in topdeck mode with only a Deflecting Palm in hand. He had managed to resolve an Emrakul, and swung. I had my lands untapped and in response to his annihilator trigger, tapped and played Deflecting Palm, naming Emrakul, and thinking I was about to win in the most hilarious way possible. He calls the judge over, and asks if Emrakul can be targeted by palm, to which the Judge says no, Emrakul has protection from all colors. He then gave me a ******* warning for casting a spell without a legal target. I've never gotten a warning at an event, and I didn't want to get in trouble, so I accepted the warning, shook my opponent's hand and watched him scoop his deck.
At this point, my neighbor at the table next to us, who had been half-listening, interrupted us and told me that I should call for the judge to come back, because he had made a wrong call (Palm doesn't target, so naming Emrakul is completely legal). So I did. The judge comes over, sees that he was wrong, and tells me that since we shook hands and my opponent cleared his board, the board state had moved beyond anything he could do, and the round was over.
I dropped from the event immediately, and after explaining what happened I at least got my entry money back from the store owner, which he definitely didn't have to do. That said, the whole experience really soured me on playing and I have't been back in a while, when I do, Is there anything I could or should have done differently?
So the rule is basically, once I accept a Judge's word, if I didn't appeal it, then that's that even if they are dead wrong and their mistake changed the game/round entirely?
If you ever have any doubts you can ask him to show you the ruling. They have the ability to look it up online. It definitely sucks and I feel for you but you probably should have told him he was wrong and to show you otherwise.
So the rule is basically, once I accept a Judge's word, if I didn't appeal it, then that's that even if they are dead wrong and their mistake changed the game/round entirely?
Is the judge supposed to go up to the guy he ruled in favor of and say "Oops, nevermind, you lost the round and WON'T be going forward into the Top 8"?
As bad as a call that the judge made, you also didn't know what your card did.
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That sucks. Sorry about that. I will say that you should never feel bullied by a judge who gives a bad call, especially that is so flagrantly wrong. But it's not your fault that he's a jerk and made the wrong ruling and then didn't resolve it in a good way, so I don't want you to feel like I'm blaming you.
There are three things you can do here:
1. Talk to the judge. Maybe he's a cool dude who had a bad day and you can just talk it over to resolve the situation. He will probably apologize and admit fault. He could also be a jerk about it, however.
2. Talk to the store owner. Let them know that you have not returned to play because of this incident (he or she will probably loop in the judge, however, to discuss the situation). The owner can't sanction the judge but he or she can look out for this in the future.
If a judge makes a call, even if the judge is wrong, the judge is right. Players have the ability to appeal a judge call, but whatever the Head Judge says (wrong or right) is still right. This is a crappy situation, and if the game didn't progress beyond the point you were at before you made the realization, something could have been done. But that's how the cookie crumbles.
Emrakul doesn't even have protection from all colors, like Etched Champion does. He has protection from colored spells. He can still be targeted by abilities of colored sources that aren't spells, blocked by colored creatures, dealt damage by colored sources that aren't spells, and enchanted by colored sources (assuming you're putting the enchantment on him some way other than targeting him when you cast it, which you can't do.).
Technically, the judge was correct in saying that Emrakul can't be "targeted" by Deflecting Palm, because Deflecting Palm doesn't target.
But of course you can choose Emrakul and reflect the next damage that would be dealt by him, yes.
Once you've got that down, if a judge hands down a bad ruling, appeal to the head judge. If he makes a bad call, tough luck.
Yeah if you were familiar with the cards you're using, this probably wouldn't have happened. And if you did know that the interaction worked (which it seems as though you did considering you chose to make the play) but chose not to mention to the judge that they were wrong with the ruling, well, that's your own fault. It's also too bad the player next to you didn't speak up.
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Yeah if you were familiar with the cards you're using, this probably wouldn't have happened. And if you did know that the interaction worked (which it seems as though you did considering you chose to make the play) but chose not to mention to the judge that they were wrong with the ruling, well, that's your own fault. It's also too bad the player next to you didn't speak up.
It sounds to me that the OP knew the judge was wrong but didn't want to risk getting in trouble by calling the judge out on it, not that he didn't know how his cards worked.
The judge was correct when you went back to him after the match, though. Once the board state has advanced past a certain point (certainly after the game has already ended) they can not retroactively change their ruling. The issue has to be settled right away, before the game can be allowed to continue.
You shouldn't be afraid to speak out if a judge makes a bad call. They are human; they make mistakes. I would have politely pointed out to the judge that deflecting palm doesn't target. If he insisted he was right after you pointed out the mistake, then you call over the head judge. If the mistake still wasn't corrected at that point by the head judge you could go to the regional coordinator after the event as ktkenshinx pointed out above, as if the head judge looks over that event and agrees with the ruling, something is wrong at that shop. From what you stated, though, it doesn't sound like the judge was trying to be an ass or anything, he just made a mistake and you were too scared to call him out on it until it was too late which is understandable (especially for someone who's never been in a situation like that before), but now you know in the future that if something like that happens you have to point it out and have the issue resolved right away.
Yeah, the real problem here seems to be that you shook hands with your opponent and allowed the game to move forward, in this case, ending. Judges don't bite, if you think a judge is wrong, say something, the worst that can happen is that the judge explains why you are wrong.
This kind of situation always makes me feel badly because I have had poor calls stop me from getting Top 8 before. The last time was probably 12 years ago, so I should be over it, but something about it still stings. When my opponents question the way something works when I play it, I tell them that they should call a Judge just to be sure and you never know, the Judge could rule the wrong way and I could lose because of it.
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So the rule is basically, once I accept a Judge's word, if I didn't appeal it, then that's that even if they are dead wrong and their mistake changed the game/round entirely?
Is the judge supposed to go up to the guy he ruled in favor of and say "Oops, nevermind, you lost the round and WON'T be going forward into the Top 8"?
As bad as a call that the judge made, you also didn't know what your card did.
As much as it sucks to have a thing like this happen to you - and I'm truly sorry it did - I feel that this post is pretty much correct.
If you did know that your Deflecting Palm was not cast illegally (doesn't sound like this is the case) then there's no reason to not appeal the ruling immediately, especially if you tried to do so after the match was over. And by that point it would be even more unprofessional of the judge to rule that your opponent actually lost - the game had officially ended, and you'd conceded already.
The initial ruling was very bad, how he handled the situation after the fact was in my opinion perfectly reasonable. I'm not a judge but if I was then I doubt I'd alter a ruling on a match that's already resolved if it would change the outcome. I'm not even sure if that's technically permissible. (I'm interested to know what other judges think of this as my gut tells me I'm right but perhaps the outcome of the match could have been altered within the rules.)
This whole scenario really irks me reading it. A player who can't read cards asks a judge that doesn't read cards if a spell that doesn't target can target a creature that can't be targeted. Then the warning goes to the one person in it all who can play. The question was irrelevant. The ruling took irrelevancy and ran with it to a touchdown. The whole situation makes no sense. That the whole debacle can be shrugged off with an oops is terrible.
The problem is we judges are under a couple of constraints:
1. we can't give you strategic advice.
--this means that if you ask "can this spell target emrakul" and the answer is NO, for any reason, then we tell you "no". It doesn't matter if it's because the spell doesn't require targets or because emrakul is not a legal target, the answer is "no".
--We can't tell you what you want to know if you don't ask the right question; If you ask a question, (judge, I have an urborg out, my opponent then played a blood moon, then I played another urborg, what the **** happens now?) then we have to tell you what happens ("you have to pick one of your urborg-mountains and sacrifice it because state-based actions") rather than ("blood moon doesn't change the name or supertypes of lands, only their type, mountain, and accordingly their textbox, reducing it to 'taps for red'"). This is because we can't give you strategic advice, and this could be construed as strategic advice quite easily.
2. We don't know the text on every card ever. Shocking, but true. Sure, I was able to correctly recite the oracle text of every card I was asked about at the open at Worcestire, but I'm a legacy specialist. I couldn't tell you didly squat about standard cards, I'd have to look them up/read them myself. Your opponent used the word "targeting" in his question to the judge, which any judge who doesn't know exactly what deflecting palm says will assume means the spell is actually targeting emrakul, and most judges who've been around longer than about six minutes know that emrakul has protection from colored spells--ipso facto, no that stuff can't target him. If a judge makes an incorrect ruling based on incorrect knowledge of the cards involved, he may not be incompetent, because if he thinks the spell your opponent asks was "targeting" emrakul is targeting emrakul, then the answer he gave was absolutely correct.
My takeaway point for you here leads from #2--competitive REL events attract all types, and while I don't know the people involved, I want to make it clear to you that you should NEVER allow your opponents to tell the judge what you did/are trying to do. Angle shooters can and will try to take advantage of inexperienced judges/judges who don't look up or know the oracle text, and they WILL get away with it if you don't ensure the judge has all of the correct information before he or she makes a ruling. Were I in your shoes, I would view this as another opportunity to learn how to avoid losing to angle shooters, and think of it like that--not that the other guy was being intentionally scummy, but being vigilant for people being intentionally scummy that way means you're less likely to get bitten by this problem (judges not actually ruling based on correct information) again.
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The original post says a warning was given for choosing illegal targets. I think that's the bigger issue. I'm on the quest, with a level 2 judge, to get my level 1 certification, and the rules make it sound like I'd be required to see if a mistake was made before issuing a penalty. God forbid the other player in this scenario asked whether it was okay for his opponent to do something more serious -- the judge would rightly say no, and what infraction then? Isn't there a step between answering whether something is right or wrong (the right answer, perhaps), and issuing a warning? The opponent essentially asked a rhetorical question, since it certainly had no basis in any facts related to the game. I'd like to think, for example, that if my opponent asked a judge how many shuffles is sufficient randomization, that further inquiry would be had before assuming I didn't live up to the answer.
Read the original post: "he calls the judge over and asks if emrakul can be targeted by deflecting palm". That right there is the problem--You don't indicate whether the judge actually stopped to read the oracle text on deflecting palm. If the judge didn't read the oracle text and assumed that deflecting palm uses the word "target", then he's "correct" in the sense that, if the card did what the judge assumed it did, his ruling was correct. The issue is that this judge didn't read the oracle text and made a ruling based in incorrect information. Judges are human.
As far as the penalty goes, that's incorrect to give you a penalty there, that's just a complete and total cluster. Two separate analyses to do here: First, assuming that the initial ruling was correct (it was not) then there isn't a penalty because the game rules back up the gamestate to just before you began casting the deflecting palm. No penalty.
Second analysis: No penalty because no infraction because cards do what the oracle text says they do, period end of story.
No matter what, the judge was wrong to issue you a penalty, although if he's a *new* L1 I can understand him not being quite as familiar with the IPG and how it applies, because casting spells with the incorrect mana, for example, can get you a warning, as can resolving spells that were cast incorrectly and then moving on with the game before discovering the mistake.
Final note--my point wasn't that the opponent saying "deflecting palm can't target emrakul" isn't that it's supposed to be relevant to the judge, because it's not--the only thing we judges *should* care about here is what the oracle text on the card says. The point I was making is that it was the responsibility of the OP in that situation to make sure that the judge reads the oracle text on the card before issuing any sort of penalty. That's a super reasonable request to make in any situation, and I can think of absolutely zero judges that will give you any flak for it provided you do so in a polite and non-belligerent fashion. Doing so doesn't accuse the judge or anyone else of being stupid, but rather gives them a chance to slow down and re-evaluate. I know I've messed up rulings on simple cards that didn't do exactly what I thought they did (mostly in standard events since I barely touch that format) and been informed by players that the cards do something other than I thought they did, and it's never been a problem. Also note that it usually comes either in the middle of the day around lunch time or at the end of a long day, depending on event size; judges are humans and get tired, thirsty, and headaches too, on top of being on our feet most of the round while you guys are sitting down playing!
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I was playing naya burn, my opponent was playing 4c gifts. It was late game, and I was in topdeck mode with only a Deflecting Palm in hand. He had managed to resolve an Emrakul, and swung. I had my lands untapped and in response to his annihilator trigger, tapped and played Deflecting Palm, naming Emrakul, and thinking I was about to win in the most hilarious way possible. He calls the judge over, and asks if Emrakul can be targeted by palm, to which the Judge says no, Emrakul has protection from all colors. He then gave me a ******* warning for casting a spell without a legal target. I've never gotten a warning at an event, and I didn't want to get in trouble, so I accepted the warning, shook my opponent's hand and watched him scoop his deck.
At this point, my neighbor at the table next to us, who had been half-listening, interrupted us and told me that I should call for the judge to come back, because he had made a wrong call (Palm doesn't target, so naming Emrakul is completely legal). So I did. The judge comes over, sees that he was wrong, and tells me that since we shook hands and my opponent cleared his board, the board state had moved beyond anything he could do, and the round was over.
I dropped from the event immediately, and after explaining what happened I at least got my entry money back from the store owner, which he definitely didn't have to do. That said, the whole experience really soured me on playing and I have't been back in a while, when I do, Is there anything I could or should have done differently?
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It also can't hurt to politely point out the facts (i.e. Deflecting Palm does not target).
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Is the judge supposed to go up to the guy he ruled in favor of and say "Oops, nevermind, you lost the round and WON'T be going forward into the Top 8"?
As bad as a call that the judge made, you also didn't know what your card did.
There are three things you can do here:
1. Talk to the judge. Maybe he's a cool dude who had a bad day and you can just talk it over to resolve the situation. He will probably apologize and admit fault. He could also be a jerk about it, however.
2. Talk to the store owner. Let them know that you have not returned to play because of this incident (he or she will probably loop in the judge, however, to discuss the situation). The owner can't sanction the judge but he or she can look out for this in the future.
3. Complain to the regional coordinator (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/tcg/events.aspx?x=judge/resources/coords). If you don't want to be diplomatic at all and are okay with just going over the judge's head to state your case, this is the source to go to.
Yeah if you were familiar with the cards you're using, this probably wouldn't have happened. And if you did know that the interaction worked (which it seems as though you did considering you chose to make the play) but chose not to mention to the judge that they were wrong with the ruling, well, that's your own fault. It's also too bad the player next to you didn't speak up.
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It sounds to me that the OP knew the judge was wrong but didn't want to risk getting in trouble by calling the judge out on it, not that he didn't know how his cards worked.
The judge was correct when you went back to him after the match, though. Once the board state has advanced past a certain point (certainly after the game has already ended) they can not retroactively change their ruling. The issue has to be settled right away, before the game can be allowed to continue.
You shouldn't be afraid to speak out if a judge makes a bad call. They are human; they make mistakes. I would have politely pointed out to the judge that deflecting palm doesn't target. If he insisted he was right after you pointed out the mistake, then you call over the head judge. If the mistake still wasn't corrected at that point by the head judge you could go to the regional coordinator after the event as ktkenshinx pointed out above, as if the head judge looks over that event and agrees with the ruling, something is wrong at that shop. From what you stated, though, it doesn't sound like the judge was trying to be an ass or anything, he just made a mistake and you were too scared to call him out on it until it was too late which is understandable (especially for someone who's never been in a situation like that before), but now you know in the future that if something like that happens you have to point it out and have the issue resolved right away.
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Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)As much as it sucks to have a thing like this happen to you - and I'm truly sorry it did - I feel that this post is pretty much correct.
If you did know that your Deflecting Palm was not cast illegally (doesn't sound like this is the case) then there's no reason to not appeal the ruling immediately, especially if you tried to do so after the match was over. And by that point it would be even more unprofessional of the judge to rule that your opponent actually lost - the game had officially ended, and you'd conceded already.
The initial ruling was very bad, how he handled the situation after the fact was in my opinion perfectly reasonable. I'm not a judge but if I was then I doubt I'd alter a ruling on a match that's already resolved if it would change the outcome. I'm not even sure if that's technically permissible. (I'm interested to know what other judges think of this as my gut tells me I'm right but perhaps the outcome of the match could have been altered within the rules.)
1. we can't give you strategic advice.
--this means that if you ask "can this spell target emrakul" and the answer is NO, for any reason, then we tell you "no". It doesn't matter if it's because the spell doesn't require targets or because emrakul is not a legal target, the answer is "no".
--We can't tell you what you want to know if you don't ask the right question; If you ask a question, (judge, I have an urborg out, my opponent then played a blood moon, then I played another urborg, what the **** happens now?) then we have to tell you what happens ("you have to pick one of your urborg-mountains and sacrifice it because state-based actions") rather than ("blood moon doesn't change the name or supertypes of lands, only their type, mountain, and accordingly their textbox, reducing it to 'taps for red'"). This is because we can't give you strategic advice, and this could be construed as strategic advice quite easily.
2. We don't know the text on every card ever. Shocking, but true. Sure, I was able to correctly recite the oracle text of every card I was asked about at the open at Worcestire, but I'm a legacy specialist. I couldn't tell you didly squat about standard cards, I'd have to look them up/read them myself. Your opponent used the word "targeting" in his question to the judge, which any judge who doesn't know exactly what deflecting palm says will assume means the spell is actually targeting emrakul, and most judges who've been around longer than about six minutes know that emrakul has protection from colored spells--ipso facto, no that stuff can't target him. If a judge makes an incorrect ruling based on incorrect knowledge of the cards involved, he may not be incompetent, because if he thinks the spell your opponent asks was "targeting" emrakul is targeting emrakul, then the answer he gave was absolutely correct.
My takeaway point for you here leads from #2--competitive REL events attract all types, and while I don't know the people involved, I want to make it clear to you that you should NEVER allow your opponents to tell the judge what you did/are trying to do. Angle shooters can and will try to take advantage of inexperienced judges/judges who don't look up or know the oracle text, and they WILL get away with it if you don't ensure the judge has all of the correct information before he or she makes a ruling. Were I in your shoes, I would view this as another opportunity to learn how to avoid losing to angle shooters, and think of it like that--not that the other guy was being intentionally scummy, but being vigilant for people being intentionally scummy that way means you're less likely to get bitten by this problem (judges not actually ruling based on correct information) again.
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As far as the penalty goes, that's incorrect to give you a penalty there, that's just a complete and total cluster. Two separate analyses to do here: First, assuming that the initial ruling was correct (it was not) then there isn't a penalty because the game rules back up the gamestate to just before you began casting the deflecting palm. No penalty.
Second analysis: No penalty because no infraction because cards do what the oracle text says they do, period end of story.
No matter what, the judge was wrong to issue you a penalty, although if he's a *new* L1 I can understand him not being quite as familiar with the IPG and how it applies, because casting spells with the incorrect mana, for example, can get you a warning, as can resolving spells that were cast incorrectly and then moving on with the game before discovering the mistake.
Final note--my point wasn't that the opponent saying "deflecting palm can't target emrakul" isn't that it's supposed to be relevant to the judge, because it's not--the only thing we judges *should* care about here is what the oracle text on the card says. The point I was making is that it was the responsibility of the OP in that situation to make sure that the judge reads the oracle text on the card before issuing any sort of penalty. That's a super reasonable request to make in any situation, and I can think of absolutely zero judges that will give you any flak for it provided you do so in a polite and non-belligerent fashion. Doing so doesn't accuse the judge or anyone else of being stupid, but rather gives them a chance to slow down and re-evaluate. I know I've messed up rulings on simple cards that didn't do exactly what I thought they did (mostly in standard events since I barely touch that format) and been informed by players that the cards do something other than I thought they did, and it's never been a problem. Also note that it usually comes either in the middle of the day around lunch time or at the end of a long day, depending on event size; judges are humans and get tired, thirsty, and headaches too, on top of being on our feet most of the round while you guys are sitting down playing!
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