An interesting read. Sorry if its already been posted up. Would love to discuss some of his points about a "healthy" format. Please share yours.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
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Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I'm still not sure a turn 2 thought-knot seer is fair ground (in the case of bant eldrazis) nor I'm happy with the banning of splinter twin, but I agree it would be terrible to print a modern only product (specially with the limited supply of the masters sets). I would really like that they placed a bigger effort in increasing reprints of modern staples, I mean, after I got my deck banned I had to spend a considerate amount of time and money to keep myself competitive on the format (at least they did'nt banned the most expensive cards at the moment like snapcaster mage) and that's not something I would considerate healthy. Maybe they should implement a watchlist (a part from reprints) like the duel commander ban list, so we can get a heads up on what cards are being troublesome to the format. That way most of us could have reacted differently. I don't know, I still feel there's a lot of work to be done and this article feels too complacent.
I'm still not sure a turn 2 thought-knot seer is fair ground
You really wouldn't like my possible turn one tks in EldraziTron then.
I tend to agree with most in the article on the health of the format. I do think play is fairly healthy. There are other aspects I don't feel are as healthy. Cost of entry, lack or reprints, rarity shifts up. I think a platform is needed to show Wizards that there are things they can improve. Turning a deaf ear towards the player base is not healthy. I hope we can get some valid criticisms that hopefully will get passed up the chain. Also if you like many of the things the author listed, as I do as well, bring those up too. I have brought up some ideas that could be implemented at tournaments that would reward players for playing fringe/unused/bulk/cheap cards over format staple and pricey cards and the rampant net-decking that goes on. That's in another thread though.
A couple of key points from the article I'd like to raise here:
The first reason for this is that we actually playtest these cards extensively, so we have a much better idea about how strong they are in the abstract, but it also accomplishes the goal I mentioned earlier of letting Standard decks become Modern decks when they rotate out.
Not sure I like the idea of Standard Extended.
The cards that have become Modern playable from Standard sets are cards that were probably a bit stronger than we expected them to be. We aim cards at a specific power band, and some hit high and some hit low. If we start aiming cards for the kind of power needed to impact Modern, we would probably be very disappointed when we end up hitting higher than expected. Nobody in Magic R&D wants to dictate what the strongest deck in the format is.
Good to see stuff still gets through the cracks every once in a while. But this also says they are setting the bar lower and lower on power levels.
One thing I hear people ask for a lot is a product that lets us print cards straight into Modern without them going through Standard. The kind of place to put cards like Counterspell, Force of Will, Wasteland, or whatever other cards people think would make Modern more fun. Well, we can debate whether or not those cards would help, but that product itself is not something we currently plan to do for Modern. Those examples are kind of extreme, and I do believe there would be cards that could make Modern more interesting—like the Onslaught cycling lands—but I also believe that the current way of getting cards in the format is better than trying to pick out things we think would be fun and add them. For the foreseeable future, cards will only become legal in Modern by coming through Standard.
Boo Hiss!!! They could do it, they just don't want to. Plus the answer always comes back to "The Precious" i.e. Standard.
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STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
This thread should become the "Sam Stoddard Article Thread". He's an oracle for anything metagame related.
Compilation of Modern-related articles: Development Risks in Modern: forget about cantrips/rituals, Infect is OK because you can kill their creatures, 8th Edition is a messed-up Magic set (YES, HE SAYS THIS) A Standard Power Level: aka "this is why you can't have reprints" Using Real-World Data: tier 0 is bad, all-<insert type of deck here> formats are bad, solved formats are bad FFL FAQ: yes, we pay more attention to Modern now, but we still don't test for it Modern Musings: no Twin is good, no PT is good, you still can't have reprints, we don't intentionally make broken cards to force you to buy the new set
The thing about Pro Tours is that they tend to solve formats.
^^^ Interesting that you brought this one up. Solving Modern is going to take more than just Pro tours imho. And I'm with you I like the slower nature of Modern as well. I guess I should be happy for a lower power level in Standard then as I don't have to worry about putting together new Modern Decks every year as the current set rotates out.
How about simply having Modern Masters be a yearly set that also introduces a few cards previously unplayable in the format? Waiting 2 years for a MM set is too long as supplies of current staples dwindle and prices make a steady march upward.
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STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I don't really agree with that statement of PTs solving formats. I get the idea, that you have some of the best players in the world trying to break the format, but actual PTs have shown that sometimes they just miss the mark. Two examples:
- At PT BNG, Nacatl had just been unbanned and Zoo was the most-played deck on Day 1. Zoo did almost nothing of significance until someone spiked a GP with Siege Rhino in the deck, and later when Collected Company was printed.
- At PT OGW, the Eldrazi decks that T8ed were colorless, UR, or Sultai with processors. The best Eldrazi decks turned out to be UW and RG. RG was actually discovered around the same time as the PT, while UW took a few more weeks.
Of course those two examples show that the PT was of some help after all, even if the pros weren't completely correct: the Zoo decks did badly at PT BNG which was reflective of their performance in the following months, and PT OGW showed that Eldrazi was broken regardless of what color it came in. However, I believe that the hive mind would have discovered those things by themselves without the PT (such as the RG Eldrazi deck).
I don't really agree with that statement of PTs solving formats. I get the idea, that you have some of the best players in the world trying to break the format, but actual PTs have shown that sometimes they just miss the mark. Two examples:
- At PT BNG, Nacatl had just been unbanned and Zoo was the most-played deck on Day 1. Zoo did almost nothing of significance until someone spiked a GP with Siege Rhino in the deck, and later when Collected Company was printed.
- At PT OGW, the Eldrazi decks that T8ed were colorless, UR, or Sultai with processors. The best Eldrazi decks turned out to be UW and RG. RG was actually discovered around the same time as the PT, while UW took a few more weeks.
Of course those two examples show that the PT was of some help after all, even if the pros weren't completely correct: the Zoo decks did badly at PT BNG which was reflective of their performance in the following months, and PT OGW showed that Eldrazi was broken regardless of what color it came in. However, I believe that the hive mind would have discovered those things by themselves without the PT (such as the RG Eldrazi deck).
Yep, thanks. I think the Pro's get the general archetypes close then the community fine tunes it through practice and play. But frankly that is how it works with most all decks anyway.
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STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Honestly, what struck me the most about the article were two specific points--
the first one, when he indicates that the onslaught cycling lands could be beneficial to modern. This actually gives us some serious insight into a couple of things--number one, the powerlevel of cards a lead developer feels could absolutely be safely included in the modern format, number two the types of "metagame space" they think could still be reasonably expanded into, and number three a sense of historical interactions that they feel would be beneficial to modern (aka the loam decks abusing the cycle-dredge chain with life from the loam).
The second point that interested me as a topic for discussion is the point he made about porting over standard decks--he specifically cites mono black devotion from a few years back, and indicates that you should be able to play it for FNM LEVEL EVENTS as long as you don't expect to win with it every week. That says a lot to me, both about types of interaction they want to remain in the format, speed of the format, and their view on the strength of individual cards (aka siege rhino vs tarmogoyf vs something crazy like deathrite shaman).
At least, those were my takeaways for significant points--the ban list talk is all moot, they made their decisions and they clearly think they made the right ones.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I find the statement about not being Legacy Lite or Standard Plus very interestint after he states he wants room to exist for favorite Standard archetypes to survive as FNM decks. It's kind of a hedge towards "brewing should be do able in Modern." Overall, this article is a huge insight for the playerbase, and I like the direction Modern is going.
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I do think they should explore different ways to get cards into modern. Standard has a different mindset for the cards that they print these days (focus on making standard a primarly midrange format where they slow the format, only printing 5 drop boardwipes and 2 drop mana dorks, printing underpowered counterspells, etc.). I think it would be very nice if they did create cards only for modern because it would spawn new formats. Shardless agent and flusterstorm are mainstay cards that they put in the format on purpose and they only messed up with one card in true name.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
I do think they should explore different ways to get cards into modern. Standard has a different mindset for the cards that they print these days (focus on making standard a primarly midrange format where they slow the format, only printing 5 drop boardwipes and 2 drop mana dorks, printing underpowered counterspells, etc.). I think it would be very nice if they did create cards only for modern because it would spawn new formats. Shardless agent and flusterstorm are mainstay cards that they put in the format on purpose and they only messed up with one card in true name.
I disagree with your standard analysis - they've said they want different types of decks to exist, not just midrange. Last season had one of the most brutal standard red decks EVER with Atarka Red so I don't think things are as 'midrange or bust' that the playerbase makes it out to be.
I do think they should explore different ways to get cards into modern. Standard has a different mindset for the cards that they print these days (focus on making standard a primarly midrange format where they slow the format, only printing 5 drop boardwipes and 2 drop mana dorks, printing underpowered counterspells, etc.). I think it would be very nice if they did create cards only for modern because it would spawn new formats. Shardless agent and flusterstorm are mainstay cards that they put in the format on purpose and they only messed up with one card in true name.
I disagree with your standard analysis - they've said they want different types of decks to exist, not just midrange. Last season had one of the most brutal standard red decks EVER with Atarka Red so I don't think things are as 'midrange or bust' that the playerbase makes it out to be.
Atarka red wasn't a very fast deck when you compare it to aggro decks of the past, there just wasn't good removal to answer it. They are hesitant to even print weaker bolt cards and they have said that they don't like red decks being fast anymore. It's not a standard "analysis" it's literally what wizards has said in the past year. If you look at all the standard decks right now they are all midrange decks in essence. Even the "control decks" play like grixis does in modern.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
I do think they should explore different ways to get cards into modern. Standard has a different mindset for the cards that they print these days (focus on making standard a primarly midrange format where they slow the format, only printing 5 drop boardwipes and 2 drop mana dorks, printing underpowered counterspells, etc.). I think it would be very nice if they did create cards only for modern because it would spawn new formats. Shardless agent and flusterstorm are mainstay cards that they put in the format on purpose and they only messed up with one card in true name.
I disagree with your standard analysis - they've said they want different types of decks to exist, not just midrange. Last season had one of the most brutal standard red decks EVER with Atarka Red so I don't think things are as 'midrange or bust' that the playerbase makes it out to be.
Atarka red wasn't a very fast deck when you compare it to aggro decks of the past, there just wasn't good removal to answer it. They are hesitant to even print weaker bolt cards and they have said that they don't like red decks being fast anymore. It's not a standard "analysis" it's literally what wizards has said in the past year. If you look at all the standard decks right now they are all midrange decks in essence. Even the "control decks" play like grixis does in modern.
In Sam Stoddard's latest standard development article he talks about how mucked up the format was by goodstuff.dec (a point MANY players have made) and said that the red decks were hurt by no lightning bolt variant in this season and that they like to have aggro red decks be a competitively viable option. And no, I disagree that they are all just midrange - you have aggro fliers decks, control decks (BW, Seasons past), midrange, with a small amount of 'combo' (bg aristocrats) etc. To classify all of it as midrange is disingenuous to what the format looks like and for what wizards' goals are for their formats. They express over and over again how they want there to be strategic diversity in their formats.
I do think they should explore different ways to get cards into modern. Standard has a different mindset for the cards that they print these days (focus on making standard a primarly midrange format where they slow the format, only printing 5 drop boardwipes and 2 drop mana dorks, printing underpowered counterspells, etc.). I think it would be very nice if they did create cards only for modern because it would spawn new formats. Shardless agent and flusterstorm are mainstay cards that they put in the format on purpose and they only messed up with one card in true name.
I disagree with your standard analysis - they've said they want different types of decks to exist, not just midrange. Last season had one of the most brutal standard red decks EVER with Atarka Red so I don't think things are as 'midrange or bust' that the playerbase makes it out to be.
Atarka red wasn't a very fast deck when you compare it to aggro decks of the past, there just wasn't good removal to answer it. They are hesitant to even print weaker bolt cards and they have said that they don't like red decks being fast anymore. It's not a standard "analysis" it's literally what wizards has said in the past year. If you look at all the standard decks right now they are all midrange decks in essence. Even the "control decks" play like grixis does in modern.
In Sam Stoddard's latest standard development article he talks about how mucked up the format was by goodstuff.dec (a point MANY players have made) and said that the red decks were hurt by no lightning bolt variant in this season and that they like to have aggro red decks be a competitively viable option. And no, I disagree that they are all just midrange - you have aggro fliers decks, control decks (BW, Seasons past), midrange, with a small amount of 'combo' (bg aristocrats) etc. To classify all of it as midrange is disingenuous to what the format looks like and for what wizards' goals are for their formats. They express over and over again how they want there to be strategic diversity in their formats.
While there may be "aggro" the aggro is REALLY slowed down based on how aggro is normally hence why I think this format has moved to more "midrange." The fastest aggro deck cast a 5 drop in it so you aren't really selling me that the aggro decks aren't really midrangy. Most of the "control" decks are really just goodstuff decks to be honest with you. The only control deck that I see is the grixis control deck that is around. All "control" decks play like "grixis midrange" does in modern which is still about playing goodstuff cards at the end of the day. My original point is that Wizards really wants to slow down standard and print weaker conterspells so we can have a standard that is about combat steps rather than about spells. This has been a slow shift for the last few years if you have noticed. That is why I want a product where they can design cards for modern. Many modern decks are very spell focused by lack the spells that flat out will not be printed anymore because of wizard's design decisions around standard. Put it this way: cards like Prohibit, Forbid, pox, Moment's Peace and Curfew have a lot lower of a chance of ever getting printed anymore because they don't fit with wizard's design philosophy. Instead expect more goodstuff 4 drops like siege rhino and Kalitas, Traitor of ghet.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
I do think they should explore different ways to get cards into modern. Standard has a different mindset for the cards that they print these days (focus on making standard a primarly midrange format where they slow the format, only printing 5 drop boardwipes and 2 drop mana dorks, printing underpowered counterspells, etc.). I think it would be very nice if they did create cards only for modern because it would spawn new formats. Shardless agent and flusterstorm are mainstay cards that they put in the format on purpose and they only messed up with one card in true name.
I disagree with your standard analysis - they've said they want different types of decks to exist, not just midrange. Last season had one of the most brutal standard red decks EVER with Atarka Red so I don't think things are as 'midrange or bust' that the playerbase makes it out to be.
Atarka red wasn't a very fast deck when you compare it to aggro decks of the past, there just wasn't good removal to answer it. They are hesitant to even print weaker bolt cards and they have said that they don't like red decks being fast anymore. It's not a standard "analysis" it's literally what wizards has said in the past year. If you look at all the standard decks right now they are all midrange decks in essence. Even the "control decks" play like grixis does in modern.
In Sam Stoddard's latest standard development article he talks about how mucked up the format was by goodstuff.dec (a point MANY players have made) and said that the red decks were hurt by no lightning bolt variant in this season and that they like to have aggro red decks be a competitively viable option. And no, I disagree that they are all just midrange - you have aggro fliers decks, control decks (BW, Seasons past), midrange, with a small amount of 'combo' (bg aristocrats) etc. To classify all of it as midrange is disingenuous to what the format looks like and for what wizards' goals are for their formats. They express over and over again how they want there to be strategic diversity in their formats.
While there may be "aggro" the aggro is REALLY slowed down based on how aggro is normally hence why I think this format has moved to more "midrange." The fastest aggro deck cast a 5 drop in it so you aren't really selling me that the aggro decks aren't really midrangy. Most of the "control" decks are really just goodstuff decks to be honest with you. The only control deck that I see is the grixis control deck that is around. All "control" decks play like "grixis midrange" does in modern which is still about playing goodstuff cards at the end of the day. My original point is that Wizards really wants to slow down standard and print weaker conterspells so we can have a standard that is about combat steps rather than about spells. This has been a slow shift for the last few years if you have noticed. That is why I want a product where they can design cards for modern. Many modern decks are very spell focused by lack the spells that flat out will not be printed anymore because of wizard's design decisions around standard. Put it this way: cards like Prohibit, Forbid, pox, Moment's Peace and Curfew have a lot lower of a chance of ever getting printed anymore because they don't fit with wizard's design philosophy. Instead expect more goodstuff 4 drops like siege rhino and Kalitas, Traitor of ghet.
I agree that Modern needs some new stuff. I would even be willing to see Counterspell in the format, as much as I kind of hate to say that because it wrecks some decks I love but improves matches for decks I hate. I think its overall good for the format. What blows me away though is that Counterspell is legal in a Common only format but is too good for Modern with cards like Siege Rhino....? I dunno. Just blows me away. The problem is that because control doesn't really exist in Modern, neither can fast aggro. Basic RDW, outside of Burn, just doesn't really exist and can't be expected to win with enough regularity to justify buying into it.
ALSO, with the speed that Standard rotates at now, why couldn't they bust the entire format open for like a year by printing Path, Bolt, Counterspell, Wrath, Confidant, and Obstinate Baloth (or preferably Loxodon Smiter) all in the same set. Rotate it in, blow the format to smithereens, and then let them rotate out. Do that in between two Mono-Colored blocks with no dual lands other than maybe Check Lands or some other mostly crappy duals. Then people aren't building 3 and 4 color good stuff, they are mostly just playing well established 1 and 2 color archetypes. The restrictiveness of the format prevents things from turning into modern 2.o, it still gets reprints, people in standard get shaken up, and it all goes away in no time.
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ALSO, with the speed that Standard rotates at now, why couldn't they bust the entire format open for like a year by printing Path, Bolt, Counterspell, Wrath, Confidant, and Obstinate Baloth (or preferably Loxodon Smiter) all in the same set. Rotate it in, blow the format to smithereens, and then let them rotate out.
That's called "killing the cash cow".
******* up Standard for a year in order to add cards to Modern is infinitely more disruptive than making a new rule that cards from set X are now legal in Modern. They have already established that they won't do the latter. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that they sure aren't doing the former.
I disagree with your standard analysis - they've said they want different types of decks to exist, not just midrange. Last season had one of the most brutal standard red decks EVER with Atarka Red so I don't think things are as 'midrange or bust' that the playerbase makes it out to be.
Atarka red wasn't a very fast deck when you compare it to aggro decks of the past, there just wasn't good removal to answer it. They are hesitant to even print weaker bolt cards and they have said that they don't like red decks being fast anymore. It's not a standard "analysis" it's literally what wizards has said in the past year. If you look at all the standard decks right now they are all midrange decks in essence. Even the "control decks" play like grixis does in modern.
In Sam Stoddard's latest standard development article he talks about how mucked up the format was by goodstuff.dec (a point MANY players have made) and said that the red decks were hurt by no lightning bolt variant in this season and that they like to have aggro red decks be a competitively viable option. And no, I disagree that they are all just midrange - you have aggro fliers decks, control decks (BW, Seasons past), midrange, with a small amount of 'combo' (bg aristocrats) etc. To classify all of it as midrange is disingenuous to what the format looks like and for what wizards' goals are for their formats. They express over and over again how they want there to be strategic diversity in their formats.
While there may be "aggro" the aggro is REALLY slowed down based on how aggro is normally hence why I think this format has moved to more "midrange." The fastest aggro deck cast a 5 drop in it so you aren't really selling me that the aggro decks aren't really midrangy. Most of the "control" decks are really just goodstuff decks to be honest with you. The only control deck that I see is the grixis control deck that is around. All "control" decks play like "grixis midrange" does in modern which is still about playing goodstuff cards at the end of the day. My original point is that Wizards really wants to slow down standard and print weaker conterspells so we can have a standard that is about combat steps rather than about spells. This has been a slow shift for the last few years if you have noticed. That is why I want a product where they can design cards for modern. Many modern decks are very spell focused by lack the spells that flat out will not be printed anymore because of wizard's design decisions around standard. Put it this way: cards like Prohibit, Forbid, pox, Moment's Peace and Curfew have a lot lower of a chance of ever getting printed anymore because they don't fit with wizard's design philosophy. Instead expect more goodstuff 4 drops like siege rhino and Kalitas, Traitor of ghet.
I agree that Modern needs some new stuff. I would even be willing to see Counterspell in the format, as much as I kind of hate to say that because it wrecks some decks I love but improves matches for decks I hate. I think its overall good for the format. What blows me away though is that Counterspell is legal in a Common only format but is too good for Modern with cards like Siege Rhino....? I dunno. Just blows me away. The problem is that because control doesn't really exist in Modern, neither can fast aggro. Basic RDW, outside of Burn, just doesn't really exist and can't be expected to win with enough regularity to justify buying into it.
ALSO, with the speed that Standard rotates at now, why couldn't they bust the entire format open for like a year by printing Path, Bolt, Counterspell, Wrath, Confidant, and Obstinate Baloth (or preferably Loxodon Smiter) all in the same set. Rotate it in, blow the format to smithereens, and then let them rotate out. Do that in between two Mono-Colored blocks with no dual lands other than maybe Check Lands or some other mostly crappy duals. Then people aren't building 3 and 4 color good stuff, they are mostly just playing well established 1 and 2 color archetypes. The restrictiveness of the format prevents things from turning into modern 2.o, it still gets reprints, people in standard get shaken up, and it all goes away in no time.
They tried that with thoughtsieze/mutavault in the same format and we got one deck that dominated for over a year. They are VERY hesitant to print strong cards from the past.
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I know that but that's because they ONLY added Thoughtseize and Mutavault without any other cards of similar power level to balance it out. Back in M10-M12 they printed both Lightning Bolt and Mana Leak. They balance each other out. Sure, Bolt, Counterspell, Path would make Jeskai broke, but without the manabase to support it, who is going to build it? Not to mention that running Mono-R aggro has one of its best tools back so now you have Mono-RDW punishing greedy Jeskai control. I mean, it all depends on what else in the format at the time. Basically just spike the power level of the entire format for a short time then bring it back down.
Also, I realized before I suggested it that they wouldn't do it. It was just wishful thinking. Thought it could be interesting/fun. I'm also not the biggest fan of Standard either so I don't really care what happens to it lol.
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that is the main reason i feel we will never see serum visions in standard ever again. the cards would be a auto include in all blue decks or any decks that splashes blue. the same was true with thoughtseize and mutavault.
i just hope they reprint serum visions at some point in a duel deck or a commander product or something like that, its about time ffs.
in my opinion they should just reprint more playable modern cards in duel deck so it would give us modern players a reason to buy them. i have been saying this for years and i dont see why they dont do it, even commander deck could do the tricks.
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I know that but that's because they ONLY added Thoughtseize and Mutavault without any other cards of similar power level to balance it out. Back in M10-M12 they printed both Lightning Bolt and Mana Leak. They balance each other out. Sure, Bolt, Counterspell, Path would make Jeskai broke, but without the manabase to support it, who is going to build it? Not to mention that running Mono-R aggro has one of its best tools back so now you have Mono-RDW punishing greedy Jeskai control. I mean, it all depends on what else in the format at the time. Basically just spike the power level of the entire format for a short time then bring it back down.
Also, I realized before I suggested it that they wouldn't do it. It was just wishful thinking. Thought it could be interesting/fun. I'm also not the biggest fan of Standard either so I don't really care what happens to it lol.
You're asking for a massive power creep and it's something they're actively looking to discourage. Something like that is to the benefit of very few players.
I know that but that's because they ONLY added Thoughtseize and Mutavault without any other cards of similar power level to balance it out. Back in M10-M12 they printed both Lightning Bolt and Mana Leak. They balance each other out. Sure, Bolt, Counterspell, Path would make Jeskai broke, but without the manabase to support it, who is going to build it? Not to mention that running Mono-R aggro has one of its best tools back so now you have Mono-RDW punishing greedy Jeskai control. I mean, it all depends on what else in the format at the time. Basically just spike the power level of the entire format for a short time then bring it back down.
Also, I realized before I suggested it that they wouldn't do it. It was just wishful thinking. Thought it could be interesting/fun. I'm also not the biggest fan of Standard either so I don't really care what happens to it lol.
You're asking for a massive power creep and it's something they're actively looking to discourage. Something like that is to the benefit of very few players.
This is why they need a supplemental product to get cards into modern. I don't know what it would be though that's the tricky part.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
I think the part where the article talks about cards from Standard entering Modern, and "slowly" "rotating" the format is the correct aproach to the print problem.
Basically, say goodbye to expensive Modern staples being reprinted in Standard. The Muta-Seize Standard was the last to see this happen.
Good Modern cards that are played since the format inception are way too stron for today´s power creep.
This means.... Modern´s power creep will go down. This isnt a bad thing though. It means that cards like Kalitas, Siege Rhino and Bushwacker are nowadays powerful cards, whereas Snapcaster Mage, Liliana, Tarmogoyf, would break the format in two.
I end the post with a reflection on something a Wizards employee said(dont exactly remember who, maybe Maro?). He basically said that LotV was set to be reprinted in M15, but with the Mono Black devotion deck destroying every other deck, they backed down from Lili.
Intresting...
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An interesting read. Sorry if its already been posted up. Would love to discuss some of his points about a "healthy" format. Please share yours.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/683938-current-modern-banlist-discussion-4-4-2016-eye-of
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/511575-cards-that-should-be-reprinted-to-enter-the-modern
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/490802-print-this-wizards-so-i-can-play-it-in-modern
But let's see how it goes! Worst case scenario: we lock it and everyone goes to their respective threads.
You really wouldn't like my possible turn one tks in EldraziTron then.
I tend to agree with most in the article on the health of the format. I do think play is fairly healthy. There are other aspects I don't feel are as healthy. Cost of entry, lack or reprints, rarity shifts up. I think a platform is needed to show Wizards that there are things they can improve. Turning a deaf ear towards the player base is not healthy. I hope we can get some valid criticisms that hopefully will get passed up the chain. Also if you like many of the things the author listed, as I do as well, bring those up too. I have brought up some ideas that could be implemented at tournaments that would reward players for playing fringe/unused/bulk/cheap cards over format staple and pricey cards and the rampant net-decking that goes on. That's in another thread though.
A couple of key points from the article I'd like to raise here:
Not sure I like the idea of Standard Extended.
Good to see stuff still gets through the cracks every once in a while. But this also says they are setting the bar lower and lower on power levels.
Boo Hiss!!! They could do it, they just don't want to. Plus the answer always comes back to "The Precious" i.e. Standard.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Compilation of Modern-related articles:
Development Risks in Modern: forget about cantrips/rituals, Infect is OK because you can kill their creatures, 8th Edition is a messed-up Magic set (YES, HE SAYS THIS)
A Standard Power Level: aka "this is why you can't have reprints"
Using Real-World Data: tier 0 is bad, all-<insert type of deck here> formats are bad, solved formats are bad
FFL FAQ: yes, we pay more attention to Modern now, but we still don't test for it
Modern Musings: no Twin is good, no PT is good, you still can't have reprints, we don't intentionally make broken cards to force you to buy the new set
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
^^^ Interesting that you brought this one up. Solving Modern is going to take more than just Pro tours imho. And I'm with you I like the slower nature of Modern as well. I guess I should be happy for a lower power level in Standard then as I don't have to worry about putting together new Modern Decks every year as the current set rotates out.
How about simply having Modern Masters be a yearly set that also introduces a few cards previously unplayable in the format? Waiting 2 years for a MM set is too long as supplies of current staples dwindle and prices make a steady march upward.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
- At PT BNG, Nacatl had just been unbanned and Zoo was the most-played deck on Day 1. Zoo did almost nothing of significance until someone spiked a GP with Siege Rhino in the deck, and later when Collected Company was printed.
- At PT OGW, the Eldrazi decks that T8ed were colorless, UR, or Sultai with processors. The best Eldrazi decks turned out to be UW and RG. RG was actually discovered around the same time as the PT, while UW took a few more weeks.
Of course those two examples show that the PT was of some help after all, even if the pros weren't completely correct: the Zoo decks did badly at PT BNG which was reflective of their performance in the following months, and PT OGW showed that Eldrazi was broken regardless of what color it came in. However, I believe that the hive mind would have discovered those things by themselves without the PT (such as the RG Eldrazi deck).
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
Yep, thanks. I think the Pro's get the general archetypes close then the community fine tunes it through practice and play. But frankly that is how it works with most all decks anyway.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
the first one, when he indicates that the onslaught cycling lands could be beneficial to modern. This actually gives us some serious insight into a couple of things--number one, the powerlevel of cards a lead developer feels could absolutely be safely included in the modern format, number two the types of "metagame space" they think could still be reasonably expanded into, and number three a sense of historical interactions that they feel would be beneficial to modern (aka the loam decks abusing the cycle-dredge chain with life from the loam).
The second point that interested me as a topic for discussion is the point he made about porting over standard decks--he specifically cites mono black devotion from a few years back, and indicates that you should be able to play it for FNM LEVEL EVENTS as long as you don't expect to win with it every week. That says a lot to me, both about types of interaction they want to remain in the format, speed of the format, and their view on the strength of individual cards (aka siege rhino vs tarmogoyf vs something crazy like deathrite shaman).
At least, those were my takeaways for significant points--the ban list talk is all moot, they made their decisions and they clearly think they made the right ones.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
I disagree with your standard analysis - they've said they want different types of decks to exist, not just midrange. Last season had one of the most brutal standard red decks EVER with Atarka Red so I don't think things are as 'midrange or bust' that the playerbase makes it out to be.
Atarka red wasn't a very fast deck when you compare it to aggro decks of the past, there just wasn't good removal to answer it. They are hesitant to even print weaker bolt cards and they have said that they don't like red decks being fast anymore. It's not a standard "analysis" it's literally what wizards has said in the past year. If you look at all the standard decks right now they are all midrange decks in essence. Even the "control decks" play like grixis does in modern.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
In Sam Stoddard's latest standard development article he talks about how mucked up the format was by goodstuff.dec (a point MANY players have made) and said that the red decks were hurt by no lightning bolt variant in this season and that they like to have aggro red decks be a competitively viable option. And no, I disagree that they are all just midrange - you have aggro fliers decks, control decks (BW, Seasons past), midrange, with a small amount of 'combo' (bg aristocrats) etc. To classify all of it as midrange is disingenuous to what the format looks like and for what wizards' goals are for their formats. They express over and over again how they want there to be strategic diversity in their formats.
While there may be "aggro" the aggro is REALLY slowed down based on how aggro is normally hence why I think this format has moved to more "midrange." The fastest aggro deck cast a 5 drop in it so you aren't really selling me that the aggro decks aren't really midrangy. Most of the "control" decks are really just goodstuff decks to be honest with you. The only control deck that I see is the grixis control deck that is around. All "control" decks play like "grixis midrange" does in modern which is still about playing goodstuff cards at the end of the day. My original point is that Wizards really wants to slow down standard and print weaker conterspells so we can have a standard that is about combat steps rather than about spells. This has been a slow shift for the last few years if you have noticed. That is why I want a product where they can design cards for modern. Many modern decks are very spell focused by lack the spells that flat out will not be printed anymore because of wizard's design decisions around standard. Put it this way: cards like Prohibit, Forbid, pox, Moment's Peace and Curfew have a lot lower of a chance of ever getting printed anymore because they don't fit with wizard's design philosophy. Instead expect more goodstuff 4 drops like siege rhino and Kalitas, Traitor of ghet.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
I agree that Modern needs some new stuff. I would even be willing to see Counterspell in the format, as much as I kind of hate to say that because it wrecks some decks I love but improves matches for decks I hate. I think its overall good for the format. What blows me away though is that Counterspell is legal in a Common only format but is too good for Modern with cards like Siege Rhino....? I dunno. Just blows me away. The problem is that because control doesn't really exist in Modern, neither can fast aggro. Basic RDW, outside of Burn, just doesn't really exist and can't be expected to win with enough regularity to justify buying into it.
ALSO, with the speed that Standard rotates at now, why couldn't they bust the entire format open for like a year by printing Path, Bolt, Counterspell, Wrath, Confidant, and Obstinate Baloth (or preferably Loxodon Smiter) all in the same set. Rotate it in, blow the format to smithereens, and then let them rotate out. Do that in between two Mono-Colored blocks with no dual lands other than maybe Check Lands or some other mostly crappy duals. Then people aren't building 3 and 4 color good stuff, they are mostly just playing well established 1 and 2 color archetypes. The restrictiveness of the format prevents things from turning into modern 2.o, it still gets reprints, people in standard get shaken up, and it all goes away in no time.
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/86097
******* up Standard for a year in order to add cards to Modern is infinitely more disruptive than making a new rule that cards from set X are now legal in Modern. They have already established that they won't do the latter. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that they sure aren't doing the former.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
They tried that with thoughtsieze/mutavault in the same format and we got one deck that dominated for over a year. They are VERY hesitant to print strong cards from the past.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Also, I realized before I suggested it that they wouldn't do it. It was just wishful thinking. Thought it could be interesting/fun. I'm also not the biggest fan of Standard either so I don't really care what happens to it lol.
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/86097
i just hope they reprint serum visions at some point in a duel deck or a commander product or something like that, its about time ffs.
in my opinion they should just reprint more playable modern cards in duel deck so it would give us modern players a reason to buy them. i have been saying this for years and i dont see why they dont do it, even commander deck could do the tricks.
top 5 anime of all time (tv, not books because dragon ball would be first)
1. Sword art online 2. Fairy tail 3. Naruto(shipuden) 4. Bleach 5. Claymore
You're asking for a massive power creep and it's something they're actively looking to discourage. Something like that is to the benefit of very few players.
This is why they need a supplemental product to get cards into modern. I don't know what it would be though that's the tricky part.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Basically, say goodbye to expensive Modern staples being reprinted in Standard. The Muta-Seize Standard was the last to see this happen.
Good Modern cards that are played since the format inception are way too stron for today´s power creep.
This means.... Modern´s power creep will go down. This isnt a bad thing though. It means that cards like Kalitas, Siege Rhino and Bushwacker are nowadays powerful cards, whereas Snapcaster Mage, Liliana, Tarmogoyf, would break the format in two.
I end the post with a reflection on something a Wizards employee said(dont exactly remember who, maybe Maro?). He basically said that LotV was set to be reprinted in M15, but with the Mono Black devotion deck destroying every other deck, they backed down from Lili.
Intresting...