The Tron player is an mtgs member. You can find more info in the Gx Tron thread if you're interested. The Mardu Reveler player is Pro Player Marcio Carvalho. @4:36 in the video, Marcio plays Inquisition of Kozilek. His Tron opponent shows their hand and Marcio chooses a card to discard. After the card is discarded, Marcio puts an Elemental token into play for the Young Pyromancer. Young Pyromancer's effect triggers on an Instant or Sorcery cast, not resolved, so he actually misses his trigger. What would you do in this situation when he puts an Elemental into play late?. This is a Grand Prix and both players are 5-1 at the time. It is Competitive Rules Enforcement Level. What would you do?
The reason I ask is that his Tron opponent also makes a minor mistake (that he would have been able to take back at FNM or Casual REL) in putting counters on a Walking Ballista before resolving the sacrifice effect of Santum of Ugin @4:40. So, Marcio Carvalho missed his trigger, but called his opponent out on his. Literally the only difference is that Young Pyromancer's trigger is mandatory while the Sanctum of Ugin is optional. What would you have done in this situation? How would you have handled it?
This is what I would have done.
Marcio Carvalho has been know to cheat. He has been caught several times and even taken time off for being banned. I would not have let him resolve his trigger so late. But then there's another way to think about it. He may try super hard to cheat and do some extreme stuff that you can't catch, making the match tougher to win. Most other players, I would let it go. I would even let it go for most other Pro Players, but for Marcio, I wouldn't. There's a few others where I wouldn't as well. Maybe this is wrong. Maybe he's always been mislabeled as a "cheater." They could have been accidents. Still, it is GP Day 1 play. I don't think there's anything wrong personally for calling out some opponents on their incorrect play, while letting others go with it. What would you do?
I know this may belong in "Magic General," but I want to get an answer from the players I identify most with, myself being nearly exclusively a Modern player. This is a Modern Grand Prix as well, located in Sao Paulo.
*One of the reasons I bring this up is that a problem with my own play is that I "let some opponents" get away with some stuff like this, whenever I feel it's unintentional and won't affect the outcome of the game. I don't want to look like a DICK if I'm going to win anyway. Most of the time I am right about the outcome of the game. Once that I can remember, I did lose because of it after a string of odd top decks for my opponent while I drew lands. That felt bad and I don't want to go to that place again. I personally know this is something that I need to work on, but I am also curious about how YOU would have handled it.
**I just realized that Marcio may have said "Elemental" and then shortcutted resolving the Inquisition of Kozilek while the Judge was getting him an Elemental token, so that probably ruins my hypothetical situation. Yes, looking back at it again, he waved his hand to show Elemental.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
**I just realized that Marcio may have said "Elemental" and then shortcutted resolving the Inquisition of Kozilek while the Judge was getting him an Elemental token, so that probably ruins my hypothetical situation. Yes, looking back at it again, he waved his hand to show Elemental.
It looked like a judge was finding a token while they were talking, but even if he didn't announce till after, it's close enough to when the trigger should have been caught that it *should* be fine. If he tried to cast an additional spell (or activate ability, play land, etc), then sure, he missed his trigger, but he very clearly got it before IOK left the table.
If he hadn't signified "elemental" somehow, you're totally within your rights to call a judge, but the result is most likely going to be a rewind to the mandatory trigger as not much would have happened. For the Ballista, it's harder, because it's optional, but again, nothing has happened that would have made Tron player change their mind about saccing the Sanctum. A lenient judge would likely rewind, a stickler would probably rule against the Tron player.
Good to know. I actually assumed a "missed trigger" is a missed trigger, so there's no going back. It's little things like this where I don't know the rules that impede me from doing a bit better.
I have a feeling that Judges are more likely to "side" with a Pro Player (if it's up to the Judge) because there's less chances of his opponent arguing than a Pro Player. I saw Andrew Baekstrom make a key mistake in Round 13 in Las Vegas where he announced an Engineered Explosives on 2, but only put 1 counter on it. Then he went to make another play and the opponent said that his EE had only 1 counter, since tapping the Grove of the Burnwillows could have been used for Green, which he already had from his Forest. His opponent DID gain 1 life, so it couldn't have been colorless, but he could have paid Green/Green for an Engineered Explosives on 1. He lost because of this and eventually finished 9th. I was kind of upset, as I wanted to see Andrew do well, but those are the rules at Comp REL.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
the simple, albeit not very useful, answer is to follow the rules. you mentioned it in the OP, but if you really want to compete at the top levels you need to put aside any misgivings about looking mean.
its probably partially the reason that spikes, pros, and grinders arent looked at very kindly by most of the community. tight play should be rewarded, and loose play punished. its the reason that the REL system exists.
the young pyro elemental play is questionable because there might have some verbal cue that viewers couldnt see; the baliista play though played out as it should have. the trigger types may have been different, but from my understanding carvalo would have received a warning for failing to maintain the game state (please correct me if im wrong).
of course the fine line is making sure you are strict with your opponent at comp+ REL and just being scummy and rules lawyering. i know for me personally it took a while before i felt comfortable calling a judge to watch for slow play.
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Great answers. Thanks for the help and I know that I have to get better at this. I just personally feel that if I am going to win anyway, it doesn't matter. I am not there to "help" my opponent learn how to play the game by having a "learning moment" from ******* up.
Just out of curiousity, do you think that an opponent of a Pro would get away with 3 Game Rules Violations at Comp REL where we had to give deck lists? A Judge let my opponent do so. When I talked to other local Judges, they sided with him because they really don't know what exactly happened 100%, so they will always have their friend's back. This is the rule I'm referring to.
It's under the Penalty Structure #3 where it is a Match Loss. Is it worth it to a Judge to allow a player to do this who just locked up the Top 8 so that it can happen more in the top 8? Or perhaps since they already have Warnings, it's easy to DQ them there?
*I'm going to say that if I was in Marcio's position, I would have let the Tron opponent take it back. I don't fault him for that, even if some of his previous play has been questionable. Hopefully he's at a position where he doesn't feel like he has to cheat to do well. He's a very talented player.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Often times on streams, effects that involve tokens are signaled or noted or mentioned verbally and the game will continue while the judge or table spotter fetches the appropriate token from a binder or whatever.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
Often times on streams, effects that involve tokens are signaled or noted or mentioned verbally and the game will continue while the judge or table spotter fetches the appropriate token from a binder or whatever.
Yeah, that was dumb of me. I actually see him wave his hands now. I just get so used to the player actually pointing or tapping directly on the card (Young Pyromancer), but you can signal the token in many ways.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
You assumed that Marcio was cheating or trying to cheat some way out of this. I will assume as well that you've been seeing a lot of GP and PT coverages and it's common for a player in the Feature Match table to always use the standard tokens / counters for the given game. It makes way more sense to assume that he announced the Elemental token for that reason (plus the fact that the opponnent was okay with all those steps).
I find it sad that people try to look at several places and all his plays for a way to burn him. I'm pretty sure that it wasn't your intention, jus tto clear the trigger question, but it's a fine example to show how social media and snowball effects can be terrifying and unforgiving to some players.
Marcio was disqualified for cheating in the 2014 World Championship.. It isn't really frightening for a bystander to witness a known cheater (at the highest level of Magic, no less) seemingly get away with missing a trigger, having it rewound, and then being rules-lawyer-y about his opponent's missed trigger immediately afterwards. Sure, people change, and it might not be fair to assume he'll always cheat when he can, but a previous cheater is much more likely to cheat again than someone who has never cheated before.
Great answers. Thanks for the help and I know that I have to get better at this. I just personally feel that if I am going to win anyway, it doesn't matter. I am not there to "help" my opponent learn how to play the game by having a "learning moment" from ******* up.
Just out of curiousity, do you think that an opponent of a Pro would get away with 3 Game Rules Violations at Comp REL where we had to give deck lists? A Judge let my opponent do so. When I talked to other local Judges, they sided with him because they really don't know what exactly happened 100%, so they will always have their friend's back. This is the rule I'm referring to.
It's under the Penalty Structure #3 where it is a Match Loss. Is it worth it to a Judge to allow a player to do this who just locked up the Top 8 so that it can happen more in the top 8? Or perhaps since they already have Warnings, it's easy to DQ them there?
*I'm going to say that if I was in Marcio's position, I would have let the Tron opponent take it back. I don't fault him for that, even if some of his previous play has been questionable. Hopefully he's at a position where he doesn't feel like he has to cheat to do well. He's a very talented player.
Under the new document, three Game Rule Violation warnings will not be dealt with using DQ's or Match Losses, but Game Losses in the third and following warnings
Marcio was disqualified for cheating in the 2014 World Championship.. It isn't really frightening for a bystander to witness a known cheater (at the highest level of Magic, no less) seemingly get away with missing a trigger, having it rewound, and then being rules-lawyer-y about his opponent's missed trigger immediately afterwards. Sure, people change, and it might not be fair to assume he'll always cheat when he can, but a previous cheater is much more likely to cheat again than someone who has never cheated before.
This sums up pretty much how I feel.
Someone who has been caught cheating will be watched more carefully than others. Even if I choose personally not to watch him/her carefully and even try to NOT pay attention to the match so it's easier to cheat, others will indeed watch them. People are judged by their former actions. It's a fact of life. As for me, any time someone has been doing super well or having any kind of variance that has been super good, I try to be really careful. I'll even go beyond the numbers, but 99.9% of the time, they're just playing well. There is a percentage where they are cheating well. Sorry, if you don't think cheating happens, you've never been to a Pro Tour or talked to anyone from a Pro Tour (for what it's worth, I failed to go to the only 2 Pro Tours I qualified for years ago, so I am very familiar with the "grinding crowd.") There are many players who cheat. Those who have not been caught will not be under much scrutiny. Those who have will be under that scrutiny. Sorry, many people don't forgive Tomoharu Saito for "stalling" years ago, as witnessed by his NON induction to the Hall of Fame, despite being the highest PW point total player of all time and just literally wrecking face his whole career. (being probably better than more than 50% of the players in the current HoF)
I'm both sorry and not sorry for judging someone like this. Most of the players that I haven't heard of something from lately, I do give them some benefit of the doubt. Sam Black, Saito, and some others come to mind. This has nothing to do with Nationality. There are American players who I've heard stories about as well. I understand that there is a real pressure to cheat or else become irrelevant. But I feel that the best players in my mind are the players that have not cheated (or at least been caught cheating so far). I judge each opponent differently based on my limited experiences with them. It's all I have to go on. A long time ago, there was a PTQ where I was 5-0 with 3 rounds left. I played against two opponents that stalled just enough for me to not call the Judge on time and we got an unintentional draw, then I lost the final round to the Mirror to miss the top 8 at 5-1-2. You best believe I would "play" those opponents differently. I would call a Judge to watch the very second they tank for a turn. Why would I let the same thing happen again? Not to mention, I would not scoop if they took all the time, then asked for a scoop because it "looked" like they had it. Why would I do that for them? Sorry, there's friends I would be more sportsman like with, but there's people that I take it super seriously and I won't give them 1 single inch. Still, it's not a big deal. They just have to legitimately beat me or get better at cheating.
And lastly, I want to bring something up, even if it is opening a can of worms. I hope this discussion doesn't continue, but rather it shows that I am not feeling this. Cheating in a card game is nothing compared to actual crimes in society. I absolutely HATE it when people compare cheating in a card game to some crime (I'm not going to say what because I don't want to open up the can of worms). Doing a crime against people is a completely different thing. Cheating is just a problem that players and Wizards have to deal with. SCG also has to deal with it because it has been bad publicity in the past. Why keep on a single guy on your team even if he cheated once when SCG can become known as "the cheating circuit." They have done a good job with publicity and cleaning up that image. I definitely think much differently about SCG Opens than previously, right or wrong (which I'm probably just wrong about, but … image)
*Do you know what that first opponent at that PTQ said to me at the beginning of Round 6? He asked me if I would be willing to determine the winner by who's ahead in life total if we ran out of time. That should have been a bad sign. Before this while we were shuffling, he made small talk, asking me about my personal life in a nice, but super fake way. Why would I determine the match of me on Modern UW Control vs. Modern Jund? I politely said, "no." If I call a Judge, it's his word vs. mine and I already know who the Judge would side with. It doesn't matter who was right. That's irrelevant. I ended up literally 1 turn from killing him with 9 mana and Batterskull in play and 1 of his 2 Ancient Grudge already exiled and no cards in hand for him. I asked him if he'd scoop since it looked like I would win if there was 1 more turn. He impolitely declined, despite the fact that he took over 80% of the round on Jund while I was on UW Control. I knew right there what kind of player he was. I don't need to play him more than once.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Back on topic, i'm curious to know how you would act on that situation. Now that we estabilished that Marcio did not miss the trigger, but rather was just being time efficient, if you were in Marcio's seat, how would you react to the Ballista Trigger? Would you let it pass, or warn the judge as well?
Again, in my personal case, i would let it pass in a non Competitive REL, but would act the same way he did on Competitive REL. And i would of course remind him of that in time, if the trigger was mandatory. And you?
I'll be completely honest here, as I was being above. Brutally honest.
In non competitive REL, I would let it go. I would try to tell the player in a non threatening way that they may want to do it ahead of time if playing at Comp REL. If I didn't care if the player learned or not, I wouldn't even tell them that. I would act as if it was the "right" way to do it and let them find out on their own the hard way. The reason I would let it go? They could call a Judge at FNM and the Judge would allow them to take it back anyway, so why should I waste time when I already know the call? (the sad part is that I allowed 2 missed Slaughter Pact triggers to be backed up within 3 weeks, 1 by a player who nearly won every single 30-50 person FNM for months straight and DIDN'T know that I don't have to allow those to be taken back at FNM. I wish I knew that earlier.)
At Comp REL in Marcio's situation, I wouldn't have let him take it back either. He top decked the Lightning Bolt, so he only had 5 damage to a Tron opponent at 8 life. If I had lethal already, I would let him take it back since I win anyway and it just gives me more "info" for later. The reason why I brought that up was that I thought Marcio also did something LATE, so it would have been scummy to not let his opponent also do something LATE. But now realizing that he did it on time, but just didn't put the token, I would have done the exact same thing. The way I play in these situations if we are not running low on time is to not move on to the next phase before actually putting the token into play. I feel like doing it without letting someone else know opens you up to potential angle shooting or cheating (your opponent saying you missed your trigger). I also used to do the same thing when fetching lands in the past until the somewhat recent rules on shortcutting fetching multiple lands. Of course, I still ask my opponent if I can shortcut.
*Just a side situation, I kept a 1 land hand off a mull to 5 in Las Vegas last year at the Modern GP with Titanshift vs. Grixis Shadow. I took a counter off Search for Tomorrow during my upkeep and then moved onto my main phase the way I always have done. I've never missed taking a counter off Search for Tomorrow (although once at FNM, I considered forgetting on purpose so that I can DRAW the Obstinate Baloth that was revealed by Goblin Guide, but that would have been cheating). He called a Judge and said that I took it off on my main phase. A Judge came. He was adamant about me taking it off during my main phase. I told the Judge I hadn't. The Judge came to the correct conclusion that I didn't do anything wrong. But, I realized at that point the way "this match was going to be." I honestly was pretty mad and considered "meeting the dude later." Probably would have been banned from Magic for a while and possibly gone to jail. I talked some ***** and told him, "so that's the way you win any Magic games?" But I was fuming inside. We were both 4-2 at the time, so I personally felt that we're not playing for much, so for him to do that was pretty *****ty. Part of me thought maybe his brain had some malfunction and he actually thought I did so, but knowing Magic players made me realize that yes, he DID do this on purpose. He thought he could put me on tilt, but all it did was make me concentrate on every play much more. Usually in my past experience, these type of players top decked or drew super well vs. me, usually eliminating me from the top 8. But this guy wasn't as lucky, and despite me not drawing another land that game, I beat him in Games 2 and 3 to move on to 5-2. I felt lucky for that since I personally feel that players that do such things are more likely to get lucky in games of Magic, but that is just my personal superstition.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
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Edit: Found the video. Starts at 04:35:00.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/281904046
The Tron player is an mtgs member. You can find more info in the Gx Tron thread if you're interested. The Mardu Reveler player is Pro Player Marcio Carvalho. @4:36 in the video, Marcio plays Inquisition of Kozilek. His Tron opponent shows their hand and Marcio chooses a card to discard. After the card is discarded, Marcio puts an Elemental token into play for the Young Pyromancer. Young Pyromancer's effect triggers on an Instant or Sorcery cast, not resolved, so he actually misses his trigger. What would you do in this situation when he puts an Elemental into play late?. This is a Grand Prix and both players are 5-1 at the time. It is Competitive Rules Enforcement Level. What would you do?
The reason I ask is that his Tron opponent also makes a minor mistake (that he would have been able to take back at FNM or Casual REL) in putting counters on a Walking Ballista before resolving the sacrifice effect of Santum of Ugin @4:40. So, Marcio Carvalho missed his trigger, but called his opponent out on his. Literally the only difference is that Young Pyromancer's trigger is mandatory while the Sanctum of Ugin is optional. What would you have done in this situation? How would you have handled it?
This is what I would have done.
I know this may belong in "Magic General," but I want to get an answer from the players I identify most with, myself being nearly exclusively a Modern player. This is a Modern Grand Prix as well, located in Sao Paulo.
*One of the reasons I bring this up is that a problem with my own play is that I "let some opponents" get away with some stuff like this, whenever I feel it's unintentional and won't affect the outcome of the game. I don't want to look like a DICK if I'm going to win anyway. Most of the time I am right about the outcome of the game. Once that I can remember, I did lose because of it after a string of odd top decks for my opponent while I drew lands. That felt bad and I don't want to go to that place again. I personally know this is something that I need to work on, but I am also curious about how YOU would have handled it.
**I just realized that Marcio may have said "Elemental" and then shortcutted resolving the Inquisition of Kozilek while the Judge was getting him an Elemental token, so that probably ruins my hypothetical situation. Yes, looking back at it again, he waved his hand to show Elemental.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)It looked like a judge was finding a token while they were talking, but even if he didn't announce till after, it's close enough to when the trigger should have been caught that it *should* be fine. If he tried to cast an additional spell (or activate ability, play land, etc), then sure, he missed his trigger, but he very clearly got it before IOK left the table.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I have a feeling that Judges are more likely to "side" with a Pro Player (if it's up to the Judge) because there's less chances of his opponent arguing than a Pro Player. I saw Andrew Baekstrom make a key mistake in Round 13 in Las Vegas where he announced an Engineered Explosives on 2, but only put 1 counter on it. Then he went to make another play and the opponent said that his EE had only 1 counter, since tapping the Grove of the Burnwillows could have been used for Green, which he already had from his Forest. His opponent DID gain 1 life, so it couldn't have been colorless, but he could have paid Green/Green for an Engineered Explosives on 1. He lost because of this and eventually finished 9th. I was kind of upset, as I wanted to see Andrew do well, but those are the rules at Comp REL.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)its probably partially the reason that spikes, pros, and grinders arent looked at very kindly by most of the community. tight play should be rewarded, and loose play punished. its the reason that the REL system exists.
the young pyro elemental play is questionable because there might have some verbal cue that viewers couldnt see; the baliista play though played out as it should have. the trigger types may have been different, but from my understanding carvalo would have received a warning for failing to maintain the game state (please correct me if im wrong).
of course the fine line is making sure you are strict with your opponent at comp+ REL and just being scummy and rules lawyering. i know for me personally it took a while before i felt comfortable calling a judge to watch for slow play.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Just out of curiousity, do you think that an opponent of a Pro would get away with 3 Game Rules Violations at Comp REL where we had to give deck lists? A Judge let my opponent do so. When I talked to other local Judges, they sided with him because they really don't know what exactly happened 100%, so they will always have their friend's back. This is the rule I'm referring to.
http://www.wizards.com/dci/judge/main.asp?x=judge/MTG_DCI_Judge_Penalty
It's under the Penalty Structure #3 where it is a Match Loss. Is it worth it to a Judge to allow a player to do this who just locked up the Top 8 so that it can happen more in the top 8? Or perhaps since they already have Warnings, it's easy to DQ them there?
*I'm going to say that if I was in Marcio's position, I would have let the Tron opponent take it back. I don't fault him for that, even if some of his previous play has been questionable. Hopefully he's at a position where he doesn't feel like he has to cheat to do well. He's a very talented player.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Yeah, that was dumb of me. I actually see him wave his hands now. I just get so used to the player actually pointing or tapping directly on the card (Young Pyromancer), but you can signal the token in many ways.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Marcio was disqualified for cheating in the 2014 World Championship.. It isn't really frightening for a bystander to witness a known cheater (at the highest level of Magic, no less) seemingly get away with missing a trigger, having it rewound, and then being rules-lawyer-y about his opponent's missed trigger immediately afterwards. Sure, people change, and it might not be fair to assume he'll always cheat when he can, but a previous cheater is much more likely to cheat again than someone who has never cheated before.
This is an old and obsolete Infractions Guide. Judges now use the IPG, which you can find here: https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/ipg/
Under the new document, three Game Rule Violation warnings will not be dealt with using DQ's or Match Losses, but Game Losses in the third and following warnings
This sums up pretty much how I feel.
Someone who has been caught cheating will be watched more carefully than others. Even if I choose personally not to watch him/her carefully and even try to NOT pay attention to the match so it's easier to cheat, others will indeed watch them. People are judged by their former actions. It's a fact of life. As for me, any time someone has been doing super well or having any kind of variance that has been super good, I try to be really careful. I'll even go beyond the numbers, but 99.9% of the time, they're just playing well. There is a percentage where they are cheating well. Sorry, if you don't think cheating happens, you've never been to a Pro Tour or talked to anyone from a Pro Tour (for what it's worth, I failed to go to the only 2 Pro Tours I qualified for years ago, so I am very familiar with the "grinding crowd.") There are many players who cheat. Those who have not been caught will not be under much scrutiny. Those who have will be under that scrutiny. Sorry, many people don't forgive Tomoharu Saito for "stalling" years ago, as witnessed by his NON induction to the Hall of Fame, despite being the highest PW point total player of all time and just literally wrecking face his whole career. (being probably better than more than 50% of the players in the current HoF)
I'm both sorry and not sorry for judging someone like this. Most of the players that I haven't heard of something from lately, I do give them some benefit of the doubt. Sam Black, Saito, and some others come to mind. This has nothing to do with Nationality. There are American players who I've heard stories about as well. I understand that there is a real pressure to cheat or else become irrelevant. But I feel that the best players in my mind are the players that have not cheated (or at least been caught cheating so far). I judge each opponent differently based on my limited experiences with them. It's all I have to go on. A long time ago, there was a PTQ where I was 5-0 with 3 rounds left. I played against two opponents that stalled just enough for me to not call the Judge on time and we got an unintentional draw, then I lost the final round to the Mirror to miss the top 8 at 5-1-2. You best believe I would "play" those opponents differently. I would call a Judge to watch the very second they tank for a turn. Why would I let the same thing happen again? Not to mention, I would not scoop if they took all the time, then asked for a scoop because it "looked" like they had it. Why would I do that for them? Sorry, there's friends I would be more sportsman like with, but there's people that I take it super seriously and I won't give them 1 single inch. Still, it's not a big deal. They just have to legitimately beat me or get better at cheating.
And lastly, I want to bring something up, even if it is opening a can of worms. I hope this discussion doesn't continue, but rather it shows that I am not feeling this. Cheating in a card game is nothing compared to actual crimes in society. I absolutely HATE it when people compare cheating in a card game to some crime (I'm not going to say what because I don't want to open up the can of worms). Doing a crime against people is a completely different thing. Cheating is just a problem that players and Wizards have to deal with. SCG also has to deal with it because it has been bad publicity in the past. Why keep on a single guy on your team even if he cheated once when SCG can become known as "the cheating circuit." They have done a good job with publicity and cleaning up that image. I definitely think much differently about SCG Opens than previously, right or wrong (which I'm probably just wrong about, but … image)
*Do you know what that first opponent at that PTQ said to me at the beginning of Round 6? He asked me if I would be willing to determine the winner by who's ahead in life total if we ran out of time. That should have been a bad sign. Before this while we were shuffling, he made small talk, asking me about my personal life in a nice, but super fake way. Why would I determine the match of me on Modern UW Control vs. Modern Jund? I politely said, "no." If I call a Judge, it's his word vs. mine and I already know who the Judge would side with. It doesn't matter who was right. That's irrelevant. I ended up literally 1 turn from killing him with 9 mana and Batterskull in play and 1 of his 2 Ancient Grudge already exiled and no cards in hand for him. I asked him if he'd scoop since it looked like I would win if there was 1 more turn. He impolitely declined, despite the fact that he took over 80% of the round on Jund while I was on UW Control. I knew right there what kind of player he was. I don't need to play him more than once.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I'll be completely honest here, as I was being above. Brutally honest.
In non competitive REL, I would let it go. I would try to tell the player in a non threatening way that they may want to do it ahead of time if playing at Comp REL. If I didn't care if the player learned or not, I wouldn't even tell them that. I would act as if it was the "right" way to do it and let them find out on their own the hard way. The reason I would let it go? They could call a Judge at FNM and the Judge would allow them to take it back anyway, so why should I waste time when I already know the call? (the sad part is that I allowed 2 missed Slaughter Pact triggers to be backed up within 3 weeks, 1 by a player who nearly won every single 30-50 person FNM for months straight and DIDN'T know that I don't have to allow those to be taken back at FNM. I wish I knew that earlier.)
At Comp REL in Marcio's situation, I wouldn't have let him take it back either. He top decked the Lightning Bolt, so he only had 5 damage to a Tron opponent at 8 life. If I had lethal already, I would let him take it back since I win anyway and it just gives me more "info" for later. The reason why I brought that up was that I thought Marcio also did something LATE, so it would have been scummy to not let his opponent also do something LATE. But now realizing that he did it on time, but just didn't put the token, I would have done the exact same thing. The way I play in these situations if we are not running low on time is to not move on to the next phase before actually putting the token into play. I feel like doing it without letting someone else know opens you up to potential angle shooting or cheating (your opponent saying you missed your trigger). I also used to do the same thing when fetching lands in the past until the somewhat recent rules on shortcutting fetching multiple lands. Of course, I still ask my opponent if I can shortcut.
*Just a side situation, I kept a 1 land hand off a mull to 5 in Las Vegas last year at the Modern GP with Titanshift vs. Grixis Shadow. I took a counter off Search for Tomorrow during my upkeep and then moved onto my main phase the way I always have done. I've never missed taking a counter off Search for Tomorrow (although once at FNM, I considered forgetting on purpose so that I can DRAW the Obstinate Baloth that was revealed by Goblin Guide, but that would have been cheating). He called a Judge and said that I took it off on my main phase. A Judge came. He was adamant about me taking it off during my main phase. I told the Judge I hadn't. The Judge came to the correct conclusion that I didn't do anything wrong. But, I realized at that point the way "this match was going to be." I honestly was pretty mad and considered "meeting the dude later." Probably would have been banned from Magic for a while and possibly gone to jail. I talked some ***** and told him, "so that's the way you win any Magic games?" But I was fuming inside. We were both 4-2 at the time, so I personally felt that we're not playing for much, so for him to do that was pretty *****ty. Part of me thought maybe his brain had some malfunction and he actually thought I did so, but knowing Magic players made me realize that yes, he DID do this on purpose. He thought he could put me on tilt, but all it did was make me concentrate on every play much more. Usually in my past experience, these type of players top decked or drew super well vs. me, usually eliminating me from the top 8. But this guy wasn't as lucky, and despite me not drawing another land that game, I beat him in Games 2 and 3 to move on to 5-2. I felt lucky for that since I personally feel that players that do such things are more likely to get lucky in games of Magic, but that is just my personal superstition.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)