This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, Beating Gush in Vintage. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.
I love Echoing Truth. It hits lots of things, with little fuss. The only problem I have with it is that it's not in Standard any more. ;_;
Part of the reason why I don't play Vintage is because it's like the Mirrodin Standard (with Affinity decks running rampant). You have a wide card pool, yes, but if it's not five or six decks, people don't care about them. (Not to mention most of my card pool is from Kamigawa on, seeing as how I didn't have the money to pick up more than a pack or two of sets from earlier on...)
Until I see something that's not jank in Vintage or Legacy, I won't play the format.
I understand the mirrodin vintage comparison. In vintage, there are only a small number of decks played. It was the same with mirrodin, everything was affinity or that other artifact deck with all the myr tokens.
There is dozens of decks that could win, it is just that many of them share at least 40 cards with another. Fetch, fow, duals, brainstorm, etc etc. Only 5ish main archetypes. Stax, Fish, Ritual, Control, Ichroid really. If you had the cards for 1 deck of all 5 of those archetypes, you would probably be within 15-20 cards of every deck that has top 8'd any tournament in the last 6 months.
GAT, Gush Tendrils, Gush Tinker, Flash, Tog, is probably 90 cards. Uba stax, 5c stax, staxless stax, workshop aggro.. probably another 90 cards.. put them together and you have 160ish, then you can probably add Oath CS, BBS, Mud, BS, 4cc, for 25 cards. Add bomberman, confidant fish, mountains wins again, urbana fish, uw fish, Sullivan Solution got another 30 cards. Add all versions of ichroid for about more 70 cards. Add grimlong, intuition tendrils, tps, etc another 30ish cards.
So maybe 320 cards to make nearly every card in the format. now probably about 250 of those cards you need a full playset of (cards like in the eye, chains, recoup, berserk, restricted cards etc you only need 1x) so 1070 cards to own the format. Thats not that bad compared to standard which you need like... probably 800 cards to make the format the cards are generally more expensive(way more $10+ rares in a standard deck than in a 10 proxy vintage deck) and they rotate way faster(vintage rotates in that cards get better versions, or become too slow in a faster format re. cards only in control slaver as the most recent example)
The only real reason anyone should play standard is that there is way more large standard tournaments in most areas as well as stuff like fnm etc. And of course people who are always looking for a new completely different format to play. Playing standard because you think it is cheaper is ignorant.
There is dozens of decks that could win, it is just that many of them share at least 40 cards with another. Fetch, fow, duals, brainstorm, etc etc. Only 5ish main archetypes. Stax, Fish, Ritual, Control, Ichroid really. If you had the cards for 1 deck of all 5 of those archetypes, you would probably be within 15-20 cards of every deck that has top 8'd any tournament in the last 6 months.
GAT, Gush Tendrils, Gush Tinker, Flash, Tog, is probably 90 cards. Uba stax, 5c stax, staxless stax, workshop aggro.. probably another 90 cards.. put them together and you have 160ish, then you can probably add Oath CS, BBS, Mud, BS, 4cc, for 25 cards. Add bomberman, confidant fish, mountains wins again, urbana fish, uw fish, Sullivan Solution got another 30 cards. Add all versions of ichroid for about more 70 cards. Add grimlong, intuition tendrils, tps, etc another 30ish cards.
So maybe 320 cards to make nearly every card in the format. now probably about 250 of those cards you need a full playset of (cards like in the eye, chains, recoup, berserk, restricted cards etc you only need 1x) so 1070 cards to own the format. Thats not that bad compared to standard which you need like... probably 800 cards to make the format the cards are generally more expensive(way more $10+ rares in a standard deck than in a 10 proxy vintage deck) and they rotate way faster(vintage rotates in that cards get better versions, or become too slow in a faster format re. cards only in control slaver as the most recent example)
The only real reason anyone should play standard is that there is way more large standard tournaments in most areas as well as stuff like fnm etc. And of course people who are always looking for a new completely different format to play. Playing standard because you think it is cheaper is ignorant.
All good points, Flamingcloud, but you forgot to mention the BIGGEST point of them all (in my opinion). Once you have the cards to compete in Vintage (or Legacy) you won't have to replace them in two years. Think about every "Shock Land" you had to own to be competitive in Standard for the last two years, if you don't play Extended what good do they do for you now? On the other end, my Force of Wills, Underground Seas, Polluted Deltas, Mishra's Factorys, etc will ALWAYS be legal in Eternal Formats. So MAYBE I have to pick up a new card every once in awhile (Empty the Warrens, etc) but for the most part once i aquire a playset of a card it will always be playable. So while Vintage (and to a lesser extent Legacy) will be more expensive to get into, you don't need to be constantly picking up new cards to compete, making it MUCH more affordable in the long run (and don't forget, most tourneys in the US allow proxies so you don't have to invest in the big moneys cards like the Power Nine or Mana Drains).
Now I'll admit right off the bat to being unfamiliar with the Type 1 meta, but in a Gush heavy metagame shouldn't Chains of Mephistopheles be pretty effective. At the SCGP9 in Indy, there wasn't a single copy of Chains in the entire field.
Is Chains not as effective as I think, or did the players underestimate how many Gushes they would see?
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Chains is pretty good, but realistically in the eye of chaos does the same job while also stopping counters and is blue. You don't really know that there was no chains in the field only the top 8 deck lists are out. If this neo-duress card is real you may see alot more chains of mephs being played as black will lose alot of dependance on blue (and hence cards like recall/brainstorm that dont work with meph) plus I mean it does nothing really to flash/ichorid/long/some fish decks etc. The way the format is going however you might see stuff like this maindecked soon.
Now I'll admit right off the bat to being unfamiliar with the Type 1 meta, but in a Gush heavy metagame shouldn't Chains of Mephistopheles be pretty effective. At the SCGP9 in Indy, there wasn't a single copy of Chains in the entire field.
Is Chains not as effective as I think, or did the players underestimate how many Gushes they would see?
The problem with chains is it doesn't stop Gush deck's ability to draw cards very effectively. They can still discard and continue filtering, discarding useless spells. They don't play a totally Control role and don't always need card advantage to win, along with the card being symmetrical hurting you as well.
In the Eye of Choas is great because it does actually stop their draw engine. They either need a ton of mana or a bounce spell to stop it.
Side note about Vintage in general. Vintage does have a fairly steep entry cost, but with 10 proxies even this can be very affordable. Once you buy into the format the cards they will be playable and not lose value for many years. Ordering cards from new sets is also very cheap.
I just wanted to note that I was judging at both the vintage champ prelims and scg power nine, and I did not see a single chains or eye of chaos, so I think that shows how unprepared a lot of players were for gush. Now that people see how dominant it really is, I expect a shift towards more explosive decks like ichorid and flash.
I know only top 8 was posted, but I was on the judging staff and never saw Chains on any decklist. There was only one player playing In the Eye of Chaos (that I saw), with none playing Chains. I guess the feeling I got was that players didn't seem to dedicate any sideboard slots to combating Gush, so its difficult to determine where its true power level will rest when it is given as much attention as the other major decks in the format.
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Thoughtsieze will make Therapy more relavant too, since a Ritual into Duress/Therapy is pretty brutal. Having another BETTER Duress in the format should make black even more powerful, and maybe even open up a new archetype. Still, I prefer Legacy. Still very powerful, but less monotonous. Vintage is boring to me. =\
Good article though, it's always nice to read into detailed analysis of decks like this, since this kind of analysis can help anyone trying to narrow down a dominating deck, and pinpoint it's strengths and weaknesses.
Part of the reason why I don't play Vintage is because it's like the Mirrodin Standard (with Affinity decks running rampant). You have a wide card pool, yes, but if it's not five or six decks, people don't care about them. (Not to mention most of my card pool is from Kamigawa on, seeing as how I didn't have the money to pick up more than a pack or two of sets from earlier on...)
Until I see something that's not jank in Vintage or Legacy, I won't play the format.
GAT, Gush Tendrils, Gush Tinker, Flash, Tog, is probably 90 cards. Uba stax, 5c stax, staxless stax, workshop aggro.. probably another 90 cards.. put them together and you have 160ish, then you can probably add Oath CS, BBS, Mud, BS, 4cc, for 25 cards. Add bomberman, confidant fish, mountains wins again, urbana fish, uw fish, Sullivan Solution got another 30 cards. Add all versions of ichroid for about more 70 cards. Add grimlong, intuition tendrils, tps, etc another 30ish cards.
So maybe 320 cards to make nearly every card in the format. now probably about 250 of those cards you need a full playset of (cards like in the eye, chains, recoup, berserk, restricted cards etc you only need 1x) so 1070 cards to own the format. Thats not that bad compared to standard which you need like... probably 800 cards to make the format the cards are generally more expensive(way more $10+ rares in a standard deck than in a 10 proxy vintage deck) and they rotate way faster(vintage rotates in that cards get better versions, or become too slow in a faster format re. cards only in control slaver as the most recent example)
The only real reason anyone should play standard is that there is way more large standard tournaments in most areas as well as stuff like fnm etc. And of course people who are always looking for a new completely different format to play. Playing standard because you think it is cheaper is ignorant.
All good points, Flamingcloud, but you forgot to mention the BIGGEST point of them all (in my opinion). Once you have the cards to compete in Vintage (or Legacy) you won't have to replace them in two years. Think about every "Shock Land" you had to own to be competitive in Standard for the last two years, if you don't play Extended what good do they do for you now? On the other end, my Force of Wills, Underground Seas, Polluted Deltas, Mishra's Factorys, etc will ALWAYS be legal in Eternal Formats. So MAYBE I have to pick up a new card every once in awhile (Empty the Warrens, etc) but for the most part once i aquire a playset of a card it will always be playable. So while Vintage (and to a lesser extent Legacy) will be more expensive to get into, you don't need to be constantly picking up new cards to compete, making it MUCH more affordable in the long run (and don't forget, most tourneys in the US allow proxies so you don't have to invest in the big moneys cards like the Power Nine or Mana Drains).
Is Chains not as effective as I think, or did the players underestimate how many Gushes they would see?
GUB: All Clones, All the Time EDH
GU: Amulet Combo MODERN
The problem with chains is it doesn't stop Gush deck's ability to draw cards very effectively. They can still discard and continue filtering, discarding useless spells. They don't play a totally Control role and don't always need card advantage to win, along with the card being symmetrical hurting you as well.
In the Eye of Choas is great because it does actually stop their draw engine. They either need a ton of mana or a bounce spell to stop it.
Side note about Vintage in general. Vintage does have a fairly steep entry cost, but with 10 proxies even this can be very affordable. Once you buy into the format the cards they will be playable and not lose value for many years. Ordering cards from new sets is also very cheap.
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GUB: All Clones, All the Time EDH
GU: Amulet Combo MODERN
Good article though, it's always nice to read into detailed analysis of decks like this, since this kind of analysis can help anyone trying to narrow down a dominating deck, and pinpoint it's strengths and weaknesses.
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