Is Shrapnel Blast ignored because it opens you up to Wasteland and getting 2-for-1ed by countermagic? Is the latter reason also why Shard Volley is omitted?
Tormod's DOESN'T deal with those things at all cause it just eats on of the 8+ manaless counterspells reanimator has. That's why Faerie Macabre is better. You should really finish my sentence before you post.
Ah I misread Macabre's "discard" ability as an activated ability while on the field.
Is Shrapnel Blast ignored because it opens you up to Wasteland and getting 2-for-1ed by countermagic? Is the latter reason also why Shard Volley is omitted?
Yep. Pretty much those reasons for Shrapnel Blast. Along with that you can just plain old have it stuck in your hand when you can't find an artifact land. It works against Burn's strength of having extremely consistent draws.
Shard Volley, while good, doesn't really get a look in when the decklist is so tight already. You can't really cast it safely in early turns, and when you compare that downside to Rift Bolt, Chain Lightning and Lava Spike then it's clearly the 5th banana Lightning Bolt variant.
While I enjoyed your article and found the reasoning to be cogent and generally appropriate, I don't believe that the burn decklist in legacy is nearly as immutable as you make it out to be. I personally have had great success with a list that runs lavamancer in the main, along with 8 fetchlands, and 2 copies of reverberate in the main. I recognize that many people will scoff at reverberate, but plays like "float 2, sac mountains to fireblast, reverberate fireblast" or "price of progress-force of will-reverberate with force on the stack" gives you a fantastic amount of reach. In fact, in the most recent tournament I played burn in, my opponent (playing blue zoo, before mental misstep was banned) boarded in leyline of sanctity and mulled to get it in his opening hand. Feeling safe behind his leyline, he didn't expect me to dump burn on every creature and use lavamancer to keep his goyfs tiny by burning them and exiling cards. The win came when he had 4 duals and 3 fetchs on the board, and I price of progress/reverberated for the win (he had fetched into 3 of the duals, leaving him at 17 and unable to fetch himself out of a loss). Additionally, running lavamancer can give you extra reach if an opponent survives what you expected to be a game-ending fireblast. Am I advocating reverberate for every burn deck in every meta? Certainly not, but I'm using it as an example of cards you completely ignored in your article while claiming to have a nearly bulletproof decklist.
That said, I do thoroughly enjoy your articles. Your previous one on white weenie was a great read, and very informative as to the new updates to an old (and fun to play) archetype. Hopefully you find time to keep them coming!
Certainly not, but I'm using it as an example of cards you completely ignored in your article while claiming to have a nearly bulletproof decklist.
You, along with some other people, are really making me want to go back and write in a "other choices" type of section, because you are right. I really do ignore a lot of cards that could (or could not) be strong options for the deck. I just forgot to mention them, which is not good.
Thanks for the criticism and thanks for the compliments, im currently working on my 3rd article. hopefully I actually finish it soon, and dont get distracted.
That's great to hear! As I said, I'm a big fan of Squandered Resources, and only felt I had to speak up on this article because of the power that Fork effects have always provided for red decks, even in the modern metagame. I look forward to the next installment!
On a somewhat related note, have you thought about featuring some form of Mono-Black control for a subsequent article? It's been a tier 2-3 deck choice for some time, but with the relatively recent printings of cards like Gatekeeper of Malakir, Abyssal Persecutor, and Liliana of the Veil, along with their interactions with traditionally powerful cards like Cabal Therapy and Dark Confidant, it seems like a good time for newer players to check out MBC as an option.
That's great to hear! As I said, I'm a big fan of Squandered Resources, and only felt I had to speak up on this article because of the power that Fork effects have always provided for red decks, even in the modern metagame. I look forward to the next installment!
On a somewhat related note, have you thought about featuring some form of Mono-Black control for a subsequent article? It's been a tier 2-3 deck choice for some time, but with the relatively recent printings of cards like Gatekeeper of Malakir, Abyssal Persecutor, and Liliana of the Veil, along with their interactions with traditionally powerful cards like Cabal Therapy and Dark Confidant, it seems like a good time for newer players to check out MBC as an option.
yes i have actually. i have written up a few lists and played around with prices. pox is extremely cheap to build, and i feature MBC in my "getting started in legacy" primer on the site. As it stands the new Liliana is just way to expensive to use (60+ atm) but she may come down. I think my next article will be on combo, but we will see.
I found this article very informative and helpful as a long time burn lover got me thinking about burn in different ways. nice work!
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I have played burn for over a year, i will refer to the primer in the legacy section but your arguement that hellspark elemental is better than lavamancer is flawed, especially with Swords to Plowshares in the format, and grim lavamancer utilizes your graveyard, barbarian ring is atrocious, sac a land for only 2 damage requiring 7 cards to be in your graveyard without fetchlands?
Please Refer to the Burn Primer in the legacy board, there will be more useful information there than the list posted.
i don't mean to flame but introducing someone to budget burn is kinda a double-negative, yes it doesn't require force of wills or JTMS, but burn can be expensive to put together, and building it properly instead of hap-haphazardly will benefit the pilot much more. i hear Goblin guides are 8 bucks each, and chain lightning, and price of progress (which should always be a 4 of in a legacy deck).
Edit: Heres the list i'm currently Running and have had very minor changes since i ran it at SCG Boston, for reference it is NOT a budget list
I have played burn for over a year, i will refer to the primer in the legacy section but your arguement that hellspark elemental is better than lavamancer is flawed, especially with Swords to Plowshares in the format, and grim lavamancer utilizes your graveyard, barbarian ring is atrocious, sac a land for only 2 damage requiring 7 cards to be in your graveyard without fetchlands?
Please Refer to the Burn Primer in the legacy board, there will be more useful information there than the list posted.
i don't mean to flame but introducing someone to budget burn is kinda a double-negative, yes it doesn't require force of wills or JTMS, but burn can be expensive to put together, and building it properly instead of hap-haphazardly will benefit the pilot much more. i hear Goblin guides are 8 bucks each, and chain lightning, and price of progress (which should always be a 4 of in a legacy deck).
Edit: Heres the list i'm currently Running and have had very minor changes since i ran it at SCG Boston, for reference it is NOT a budget list
I don't mean to flame either dude, but I don't agree with your list at all. Why is manamorphose in there? What is Emrakul in the board going to help beat besides painters grindestone? You want versatile sideboard cards that help in many matchups, not singleton ones. Do you really want three cards in your sideboard to be dead if you draw them other than in the openening hand? This forces mulligans and you don't want LESS cards in the matches these help against (Leyline of the Void). As for Shrine of Burning Rage, I feel like you want everything you play to hit the opponent ASAP. The shrine takes way too long to work, for not enough gain. Just all my opinions though.
Also, Spooky wrote this article when Swords to Plowshares was NOT in the meta thanks to mental misstep. You may be a little correct now in saying that the elemental is not quite as good now that MM is banned, but he is still a very good card and was even better at the time this article was written.
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When exactly was StP not in the legacy metagame? even with Mental Misstep decks still ran Swords.
Red shrine alt win condition, trust me, ask Larry Swasey how popping a shrine on 10 after burning away a field fo merfolk feels, ensnaring bridge is trump to any agro deck. emrakul, grindstone / show n tell emrakul/hive mind.
voids for dredge, relics for dredge / Knight decks.
Manamorphose helps you go off and cast that late game Leyline. or just draws you a card.
I rarely mulligan even with a shrine or bridge in my hand, reason being, maindeck hate is slim to none after a bolt.
Undefeated vs zoo, you should try the list, it's very proactive.
I've been tuning it for over a year and it's at an extremely consistant stage, turn 4 with proactive measures incase the game goes long. Try an ensnaring bridge vs stoneblade, batterskull? yea, thats not ever getting in again.
Ensnaring bridge vs zoo, great, especially when your just looking for a topdeck.
Again, i've been tuning it over a year and that 1 bridge main 1 bridge side really increases your survivability, because when your burning their face off, their not holding a backup counterspell for a bridge. Emrakul? trumped, Progenitus? Trumped, any creature after i burn thru my hand? useless, minus grim lavamancer.
I have played burn for over a year, i will refer to the primer in the legacy section but your arguement that hellspark elemental is better than lavamancer is flawed, especially with Swords to Plowshares in the format, and grim lavamancer utilizes your graveyard, barbarian ring is atrocious, sac a land for only 2 damage requiring 7 cards to be in your graveyard without fetchlands?
Please Refer to the Burn Primer in the legacy board, there will be more useful information there than the list posted.
i don't mean to flame but introducing someone to budget burn is kinda a double-negative, yes it doesn't require force of wills or JTMS, but burn can be expensive to put together, and building it properly instead of hap-haphazardly will benefit the pilot much more. i hear Goblin guides are 8 bucks each, and chain lightning, and price of progress (which should always be a 4 of in a legacy deck).
Edit: Heres the list i'm currently Running and have had very minor changes since i ran it at SCG Boston, for reference it is NOT a budget list
How is it flawed? Swords to plowshares being in the format is the exact reason I argue against grim lavamancer. He is much more likely to get hit by a swords than hellspark. At the very least, hellspark is much more relevant in the control matchup, where he is uncounterable. I really dont want to repeat myself, so i will just ask you to read my grim lavamancer section again...
I feel i more than justified barbarian ring. I understand its difficult to use it unless you are in the late game, but again, thats the reason i didnt run 4. The card is very good in the control matchup because it is guaranteed damage against a player that runs counterspells. the card is a finisher for the late game after fetches, FoW and my burn have done their job on my opponents life points. Am i saying burn should work to go into the late game? no, but you can not always expect things to go the way you want them to, and thats what its in there for.
I have read the legacy burn primer multiple times actually. The fact that you refer to it makes me question many of the choices you made when constructing your list.
Also, this deck is not "budget burn" in the sense that you think it is. It's just burn. The burn archetype is budget, which is why i discuss it. because the archetype itself is cheap you dont have to make the deck worse just so you can afford it, its already affordable in its best incarnations.
I have included a playset of goblin guides and Chain lightnings and 3 PoP in my list, it still comes out to about 130 dollars, which is much cheaper than my 250 dollar cut off point, not to mention much cheaper than the vast majority of decks in the format.
You have 2 manamorphose, 2 vexing shusher, 2 Shrine of Burning rage and 1 Ensnaring Bridge in your mainboard. I seriously have to question these choices. I feel if you were to post this list in the legacy burn thread you would receive much more scrutiny that you think.
Leyline of the void is probably the worst graveyard hate you could choose to play in burn, as it FORCES you to mulligan, otherwise its just dead draw. any matchup where you must mulligan into it is probably a matchup where the deck is much faster than you. they will find an answer to the leyline far before you will be able to kill them, especially if you had to mulligan into it. and you will never be able to replay it if it gets bounced.
1) i would rather swords a hellspark then a lavamancer right away because the hellspark COULD unearth.
2) mana requirements for hellspark 4 mana for 6 damage = not efficient enough for my tastes
3) my choices for accents to the burn deck have been decided on over the last year of playing the deck, whether i receive scrutiny from the tread itself is not an issue to me because sanctioned legacy tournaments i walk away with pack prizes. first or second place consistently because no one expects an ensnaring bridge or red shrine. I recommend you trying 2 red shrines, as they can be game changing.
4) if you don't believe me, try it.
5) with 5 leyline effects in the board i rarely need to mulligan vs dredge.
6) barbarian ring help tarmogoyf? but so do fetchlands, but fetchlands help lavamancer, and reusable burn spells vs creatures is good to me. Merfolk lord on the stack, kill the other lord, can hellspark elemental do that? *crickets* yea, thought not.
Overall again, i didn't want to start a flame war just wanted to point out that the reasons for running hellspark OVER grim lavamancer is just not good for your Zoo, merfolk, or most other tribal deck match-up, because your going to want to keep them off of their creatures simply because their principle is the same as yours: kill them as quickly as possible.
also lavamancer can block and shoot another creature down before damage, so the versatility of Lavamancer vastly dwarfs the usability of a 2-pump-chump like hellspark elemental.
If either gets hit with swords you lose a creature, however, if it isnt sword-ed immediately, lavamancer can give you value by giving you 1 life and 2 damage (taking another creature with it) i feel no reason to not run lavamancers as they are the best option for the slot. Hellsparks are cute but not much else.
Going back to tarmogoyf, lavamancer will make goyf smaller. Hellspark most likely wont because you will have another creature blocking the goyf, eventually, so actually if you are not running lavamancer, in any matchup where your going to go up against a goyf, you will be doing half the work for them.
Thinking about the mana costs i would rather have shock on a stick then bolt for 2 mana that doesn't get thru a goyf. The problem with creatures is there needs to be nothing blocking them. If your playing against a goyf deck, you will be shooting yourself in the foot. Can't deal damage if ya can't get thru.
Short of a leyline of sanctity lavamancer just "gets there" a lot better than hellspark elemental.
Oh, about Vexing Shusher, it's another swords target and provide you with a way out against decks with force of will, because red blasts are after SB, but MB, i want the most played card in legacy to be a null one when i'm attempting to finish the game, if it can't attack from behind a bridge, it better do something for me, and oh brother, it's a big one. FoW turns into them 3 for 1'ing themselves.
When exactly was StP not in the legacy metagame? even with Mental Misstep decks still ran Swords.
The number of people playing Swords dropped dramatically, as it was just not effective unless you were playing your own MM to counter theirs. Stoneblade was the only deck running Swords.
So what do you do when you are not facing aggro? I see this as a good sideboard card, but not main deck. It's dead against combo, and control. you do NOT wan ANY dead cards game 1, that is supposed to be the game you win.
emrakul, grindstone / show n tell emrakul/hive mind.
Hive mind is dead, grindstone nearly non-existent, at least while MM was around, and you cannot expect to draw 1 Emrakul in a matchup with show and tell, unless you are going to mulligan into it, again...
voids for dredge, relics for dredge / Knight decks.
Leyline of the Void is THE WORST graveyard hate. Don't ever play it, unless you are black. All decks that use the graveyard can easily deal with it except landless dredge. When you get hit by a Chain of Vapor, don't say I didn't warn you.
Manamorphose helps you go off and cast that late game Leyline. or just draws you a card.
ITS A DEAD CARD...DEAD. INSTEAD OF TRYING TO DRAW INTO MORE BURN....JUST ADD MORE BURN. ITS NOT LIKE YOU ARE TRYING TO ADD TO STORM COUNT, WHAT DO YOU MEAN "GO OFF" THIS ISN'T STORM....
I rarely mulligan even with a shrine or bridge in my hand, reason being, maindeck hate is slim to none after a bolt.
Burn NEVER mulligans, its just what it does well. Its the same thing with zoo. Everything in the deck is so redundant, that is what protects you from mulligan, its not something special to your list.
Again, i've been tuning it over a year and that 1 bridge main 1 bridge side really increases your survivability, because when your burning their face off, their not holding a backup counterspell for a bridge. Emrakul? trumped, Progenitus? Trumped, any creature after i burn thru my hand? useless, minus grim lavamancer.
Bridge is a fine sideboard card, I never knocked it. But main board is a no. It's just dead in too many matchups. Unless your meta is almost ALL aggro, I don't advise it.
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1) i would rather swords a hellspark then a lavamancer right away because the hellspark COULD unearth.
2) mana requirements for hellspark 4 mana for 6 damage = not efficient enough for my tastes
3) my choices for accents to the burn deck have been decided on over the last year of playing the deck, whether i receive scrutiny from the tread itself is not an issue to me because sanctioned legacy tournaments i walk away with pack prizes. first or second place consistently because no one expects an ensnaring bridge or red shrine. I recommend you trying 2 red shrines, as they can be game changing.
4) if you don't believe me, try it.
5) with 5 leyline effects in the board i rarely need to mulligan vs dredge.
6) barbarian ring help tarmogoyf? but so do fetchlands, but fetchlands help lavamancer, and reusable burn spells vs creatures is good to me. Merfolk lord on the stack, kill the other lord, can hellspark elemental do that? *crickets* yea, thought not.
Overall again, i didn't want to start a flame war just wanted to point out that the reasons for running hellspark OVER grim lavamancer is just not good for your Zoo, merfolk, or most other tribal deck match-up, because your going to want to keep them off of their creatures simply because their principle is the same as yours: kill them as quickly as possible.
also lavamancer can block and shoot another creature down before damage, so the versatility of Lavamancer vastly dwarfs the usability of a 2-pump-chump like hellspark elemental.
If either gets hit with swords you lose a creature, however, if it isnt sword-ed immediately, lavamancer can give you value by giving you 1 life and 2 damage (taking another creature with it) i feel no reason to not run lavamancers as they are the best option for the slot. Hellsparks are cute but not much else.
Going back to tarmogoyf, lavamancer will make goyf smaller. Hellspark most likely wont because you will have another creature blocking the goyf, eventually, so actually if you are not running lavamancer, in any matchup where your going to go up against a goyf, you will be doing half the work for them.
Thinking about the mana costs i would rather have shock on a stick then bolt for 2 mana that doesn't get thru a goyf. The problem with creatures is there needs to be nothing blocking them. If your playing against a goyf deck, you will be shooting yourself in the foot. Can't deal damage if ya can't get thru.
Short of a leyline of sanctity lavamancer just "gets there" a lot better than hellspark elemental.
I seriously disagree with pretty much everything you just said, but Iyou are right, i dont want to repeat myself and we dont need to start some stupid flame war that wont go anywhere, so I'll just leave it at that.
and to MoT - you obviously don't go to any Starcity events or big legacy tournaments, where you may find 1 of this deck and 1 of that deck, you have to be prepared for the curve-ball's.
My meta is alot of combo, affinity, and stoneblade decks. And yes, i still beat them, why? adaptive meta mainboard. Manamorphose is probably the riskiest mb card, bridge trumps zoo, stoneblade, NO / Progenitus decks
see #4, calling my decisions bad without concrete numbers or playtesting time vs decks i play against makes me dismiss your arguement faster then it took you to write it.
Oh and tell those people running manaless dredge that leyline is the worst graveyard hate for dredge, they are going to laugh at you.
I would report MoT's post for spam but i'd rather hear opinions from him after he's tested the list vs merfolk and zoo. Merfolk is a terrible matchup for us and the mb bridge is what helps the most.
Please be more constructive with your criticism MoT. (Atleast i present an arguement instead of one line dismissal)
I don't want to throw kindling on a fire, so I'll leave out the vast majority of my opinions on the preceding string of commentary regarding Tatekei's list. However, there is one card that I feel is being unfairly attacked; that is Shrine of Burning Rage. Like Reverberate, it's not a requirement for a red deck to run, but it can give the deck an enormous amount of reach. A turn 2 shrine may not seem proactive enough, but it provides another way to get extra value from your mountains before sacking to Fireblast and will frequently be at least 6-8 damage for 5 mana (2 to cast, 3 to activate). Additionally, for truly new players, it provides a reasonable option for their deck that is both extremely cheap in terms of cost and extremely easy to come by (being from a relatively new set and only being uncommon). Finally, the delay between casting and activating effectively reduces the cost to 3 mana; with turn 3 and 4 upkeep triggers and 2-3 burn spells, you can effectively ensure at least a Fireblast level of burn on turn 5. As most burn decks want to close the game out by that point, I personally feel that Shrine is a legitimate option. Admittedly, I'm biased, having had great success with it in burn decks.
As I said before, however, I feel spooky's article was a great breakdown of budget deckbuilding and the logic of burn deck play style for people that are entering the format or looking for a new deck that's easy and cheap to build. His decklist was the epitome of the standard Legacy Burn shell, so picking it apart and comparing it to highly non-traditional lists containing card choices like Manamorphose and Ensnaring Bridge seems inappropriate to me.
spooky - I'm really excited to see an article on budget combo and/or pox. I've always loved black griefer-style decks, pox is an old time favorite that gets no love nowadays, despite the printings of strong cards for the archetype, such as Bloodghast. Again, keep up the good work!
Can we get a like button? Thanks for the support Deathmage, thats the exact reason i threw the shrine in there, during SCG Boston i delt 14 damage to larry swasey playing Alex Bertoncini's merfolk deck using a fireblast (floating 2 red, triggering shrine, resolving trigger and blast then flinging the shrine at him for 10). all this was through a ensnaring bridge.
The reach that a red shrine has as a two or 1 of it gains value incrementally over time or exponentially as you cast burn spells, even if you MUST kill a creature with a red shrine on board, you're building up your win condition while playing the control matchup.
Most of my matches end with me at around 13 life, on average. Some lower, some higher, but i love shrine, especially when i play 2-for-1 cards like searing blaze in the MB, blaze is a MB card all day for a tournament where you know X/3 creatures are going to be playing.
I refer to number 4 in my post.
and to MoT - you obviously don't go to any Starcity events or big legacy tournaments, where you may find 1 of this deck and 1 of that deck, you have to be prepared for the curve-ball's.
dude...Your arguments don't dismiss mine. All you say is that I've never tested it out so I'm wrong. Your sideboard is what you use to prepare for curveballs, but also, it needs to help you against what is popular at the time. cards in your sideboard need to have multiple uses. Ensnaring Bridge is fine, sideboard, but Emrakul just doesn't cut it. being only 15 cards you have little room to hate against fringe decks, where that space could be used to combat stuff you are more likely to see.
My meta is alot of combo, affinity, and stoneblade decks. And yes, i still beat them, why? adaptive meta mainboard. Manamorphose is probably the riskiest mb card, bridge trumps zoo, stoneblade, NO / Progenitus decks
1) You still have not explained what Manamorphose does for you. It does not hurt any deck out there. You have no storm count to worry about, and no mana fixing is necessary. 2)Bring bridge in from the board to beat those decks, it being a dead card mainboard against many other decks outweighs its usefulness. I feel the need to question what zoo players you are facing where bridge just dominates them...all the zoo deck I ever face are playing 3-4 mainbard quasali pridemage, and 3-4 green sun's zenith. that's 6-8 cards that can easily deal with your bridge...
see #4, calling my decisions bad without concrete numbers or playtesting time vs decks i play against makes me dismiss your arguement faster then it took you to write it.
Ditto my friend. Spooky spent 5 weeks in a meta with some of the top players in the nation, including Ari-Lax, and Christopher Walton, Probably one of the best legacy metas in the country, and prized every week. I feel that he already stated this in his article and that should be plenty of testing and concrete numbers.
Oh and tell those people running manaless dredge that leyline is the worst graveyard hate for dredge, they are going to laugh at you.
If you took the time to read my argument rather than just dismissing it, you would see that I mention Manaless dredge. Also I would like to point out to you that Manaless dredge is a fringe deck, and also has no reason to exist now that MM is banned. Manaless dredge evolved to combat the countering of regular dredges discard outlets. With no MM in the meta now, there will be no manaless dredge. It is slower and just all around worse than dredge with tireless tribe and careful study/breakthrough.
I would report MoT's post for spam but i'd rather hear opinions from him after he's tested the list vs merfolk and zoo. Merfolk is a terrible matchup for us and the mb bridge is what helps the most.
Saying you dont want to start a flame war, and then threatening to report me for spam is contradictory. Also, you cannot be serious that merfolk is a bad matchup for burn...I just watched spooky dominate countless merfolk players with his list, no bridge. he must have faced it 10 times in those weeks piloting the deck, and he lost to it 1 time...
Please be more constructive with your criticism MoT. (Atleast i present an arguement instead of one line dismissal)
I presented my arguments in my previous posts, and am defending my statements from your rebuttals. It is perfectly fine for me to expect you to be able to defend your choices, otherwise why make those choices? You have yet to give me a good reason to run Manamorphose, or even mainboard vexing shusher. I can understand you liking your artifacts if you are swamped with aggro in your meta, and that's fine if it is a meta decision. Saying that I am not being constructive with my criticism is showing that you are just ignorant to my help and are just ignoring the criticism all together.
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Really interesting article! I like your writing. I wouldn't agree with a few choices (Lavamancer has worked for me as a two of, but I see your point), but it's pretty good.
The problem is that many burn players have evolved their playstyle to the more familiar "play threat, burn things in the way, throw the rest of the burn at their face) due to the incredibly efficiency of Goblin Guide. If you were running creatures by that playstyle, the Lavamancer is a great choice (Figure too!). That said, it's entirely up to debate if that solid style is better than the combo feeling of the deck: throw seven cards at the opponent - Win.
BTW, I won't argue, but Vexing Shusher and Ensnaring Bridge do not belong in a burn deck since, well, they don't deal damage. If you want to go Burning Bridges (Bridge + Skullcap), by all means, but that's a much more slower and controllish deck that just might work in creature heavy metas. Or at least it did in Invasion Standard (burn stuff, finish opponent via Urza's Rage. It was a lot of fun and I think I'm gonna build that deck this month for fun!)
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Thanks for the article...I just began playtesting swapping in a full set of fetches and lavamancers in place of my original hellsparks and was getting frustrated. You helped me refocus. Right now I run some Browbeats (I love this card more than I should) and Magma Jets in my 4-5ish meta slots, but will likely give Fallout a shot.
Kryne - I know about loving Browbeat, it's a lot of fun to play and feels like it should be very strong; 3 mana for either 5 damage or Ancestral Recall. The problem with it is the opponent dependent modal nature; in a competitive environment, the last thing you want to do is give your opponent the ability to choose which effect you get. I finally dropped it after punting my chance at 4-0 in a legacy event over a year ago because my opponent (who had jace fatesealed) let me draw 3, knowing that at least one was a mountain. It turned out 2 were mountains, so he saved himself the damage that would have meant a win for me.
Fallout can be an incredibly powerful meta choice, especially in a tribal heavy meta (it absolutely wrecks decks like elves, merfolk, and goblins). If you are in a control heavy meta, Vexing Shusher can be extremely good as well, especially against counter-top, where it totally negates their soft-lock. However, I personally don't feel it should ever be main deck. I also totally endorse Magma Jet, as two damage tacked on to that kind of card filtration is amazing in a red deck, where you frequently need to know if you've got gas on top of your deck; if you don't, the dig can sift away dead lands in the late game.
In my build, I actually run 4x each of goblin guides, grim lavamancers, and hellspark elementals. It gives you better flexibility if you get drawn into a longer game; with a clear board you unearth hellspark and crash, with a full board you have more fodder for lavamancer to go over their creature's heads, even as it chump blocks.
I've also done some testing with Flame Javelin as a 2 of. I'm still up in the air, there are times when it's fantastic (they flashback cabal therapy naming fireblast, only to see their game loss sitting in my hand) and times when it's terrible (stuck on two lands on turn 4, needing only to EOT javelin them and follow with a lightning bolt in my upkeep before they have a chance to stabilize).
While spooky's breakdown of the type of game burn wants to play is fundamentally correct, I personally believe (and I have no math to back this up) that running 12 mountain and 8 fetches gives much needed deck thinning and shuffle effects, especially with magma jet and grim lavamancer. I'd be happy to share the decklist I've used most recently; it carried me through 3-1 two weeks ago, destroying BUG rock, Team Italia, and Blue Zoo (lost to Stoneblade while misstep was still legal).
I have most of these cards just laying around, I haven't played in a Legacy event but I do have friends who have Legacy decks and I'll definitely throw this list together and give it a try! I especially like it not having Grim Lavamancer since I personally don't own a 4-of yet.
I understand the awesome power of Price of Progress, how does something like Anathemancer sound in a B/R burn deck? Unearth is more card advantage, and with flashback from Bump in the Night, it can be another late-game blast. Just a suggestion, again not a Legacy player myself.
This is my first Squandered Resources that I read, too, but it was very informative and well-written and thought out that I'm going to go back and try to read the other articles! Thanks for the read!
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Ah I misread Macabre's "discard" ability as an activated ability while on the field.
Yep. Pretty much those reasons for Shrapnel Blast. Along with that you can just plain old have it stuck in your hand when you can't find an artifact land. It works against Burn's strength of having extremely consistent draws.
Shard Volley, while good, doesn't really get a look in when the decklist is so tight already. You can't really cast it safely in early turns, and when you compare that downside to Rift Bolt, Chain Lightning and Lava Spike then it's clearly the 5th banana Lightning Bolt variant.
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That said, I do thoroughly enjoy your articles. Your previous one on white weenie was a great read, and very informative as to the new updates to an old (and fun to play) archetype. Hopefully you find time to keep them coming!
You, along with some other people, are really making me want to go back and write in a "other choices" type of section, because you are right. I really do ignore a lot of cards that could (or could not) be strong options for the deck. I just forgot to mention them, which is not good.
Thanks for the criticism and thanks for the compliments, im currently working on my 3rd article. hopefully I actually finish it soon, and dont get distracted.
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On a somewhat related note, have you thought about featuring some form of Mono-Black control for a subsequent article? It's been a tier 2-3 deck choice for some time, but with the relatively recent printings of cards like Gatekeeper of Malakir, Abyssal Persecutor, and Liliana of the Veil, along with their interactions with traditionally powerful cards like Cabal Therapy and Dark Confidant, it seems like a good time for newer players to check out MBC as an option.
yes i have actually. i have written up a few lists and played around with prices. pox is extremely cheap to build, and i feature MBC in my "getting started in legacy" primer on the site. As it stands the new Liliana is just way to expensive to use (60+ atm) but she may come down. I think my next article will be on combo, but we will see.
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but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
Please Refer to the Burn Primer in the legacy board, there will be more useful information there than the list posted.
i don't mean to flame but introducing someone to budget burn is kinda a double-negative, yes it doesn't require force of wills or JTMS, but burn can be expensive to put together, and building it properly instead of hap-haphazardly will benefit the pilot much more. i hear Goblin guides are 8 bucks each, and chain lightning, and price of progress (which should always be a 4 of in a legacy deck).
Edit: Heres the list i'm currently Running and have had very minor changes since i ran it at SCG Boston, for reference it is NOT a budget list
2 Manamorphose
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Fireblast
2 Shrine of Burning rage
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chain Lightning
4 Price of Progress
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
3 Searing Blaze
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
6 Mountain
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Leyline of the void
1 Ensnaring Bridge
GBW Control
UWB Esper Thing Control
I don't mean to flame either dude, but I don't agree with your list at all. Why is manamorphose in there? What is Emrakul in the board going to help beat besides painters grindestone? You want versatile sideboard cards that help in many matchups, not singleton ones. Do you really want three cards in your sideboard to be dead if you draw them other than in the openening hand? This forces mulligans and you don't want LESS cards in the matches these help against (Leyline of the Void). As for Shrine of Burning Rage, I feel like you want everything you play to hit the opponent ASAP. The shrine takes way too long to work, for not enough gain. Just all my opinions though.
Also, Spooky wrote this article when Swords to Plowshares was NOT in the meta thanks to mental misstep. You may be a little correct now in saying that the elemental is not quite as good now that MM is banned, but he is still a very good card and was even better at the time this article was written.
-Sun Tzu
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EDH
RStarke of Rath chaosR
UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB
UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW
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WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW
RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW
XMUDX
Red shrine alt win condition, trust me, ask Larry Swasey how popping a shrine on 10 after burning away a field fo merfolk feels, ensnaring bridge is trump to any agro deck. emrakul, grindstone / show n tell emrakul/hive mind.
voids for dredge, relics for dredge / Knight decks.
Manamorphose helps you go off and cast that late game Leyline. or just draws you a card.
I rarely mulligan even with a shrine or bridge in my hand, reason being, maindeck hate is slim to none after a bolt.
Undefeated vs zoo, you should try the list, it's very proactive.
I've been tuning it for over a year and it's at an extremely consistant stage, turn 4 with proactive measures incase the game goes long. Try an ensnaring bridge vs stoneblade, batterskull? yea, thats not ever getting in again.
Ensnaring bridge vs zoo, great, especially when your just looking for a topdeck.
Again, i've been tuning it over a year and that 1 bridge main 1 bridge side really increases your survivability, because when your burning their face off, their not holding a backup counterspell for a bridge. Emrakul? trumped, Progenitus? Trumped, any creature after i burn thru my hand? useless, minus grim lavamancer.
GBW Control
UWB Esper Thing Control
How is it flawed? Swords to plowshares being in the format is the exact reason I argue against grim lavamancer. He is much more likely to get hit by a swords than hellspark. At the very least, hellspark is much more relevant in the control matchup, where he is uncounterable. I really dont want to repeat myself, so i will just ask you to read my grim lavamancer section again...
I feel i more than justified barbarian ring. I understand its difficult to use it unless you are in the late game, but again, thats the reason i didnt run 4. The card is very good in the control matchup because it is guaranteed damage against a player that runs counterspells. the card is a finisher for the late game after fetches, FoW and my burn have done their job on my opponents life points. Am i saying burn should work to go into the late game? no, but you can not always expect things to go the way you want them to, and thats what its in there for.
I have read the legacy burn primer multiple times actually. The fact that you refer to it makes me question many of the choices you made when constructing your list.
Also, this deck is not "budget burn" in the sense that you think it is. It's just burn. The burn archetype is budget, which is why i discuss it. because the archetype itself is cheap you dont have to make the deck worse just so you can afford it, its already affordable in its best incarnations.
I have included a playset of goblin guides and Chain lightnings and 3 PoP in my list, it still comes out to about 130 dollars, which is much cheaper than my 250 dollar cut off point, not to mention much cheaper than the vast majority of decks in the format.
You have 2 manamorphose, 2 vexing shusher, 2 Shrine of Burning rage and 1 Ensnaring Bridge in your mainboard. I seriously have to question these choices. I feel if you were to post this list in the legacy burn thread you would receive much more scrutiny that you think.
Leyline of the void is probably the worst graveyard hate you could choose to play in burn, as it FORCES you to mulligan, otherwise its just dead draw. any matchup where you must mulligan into it is probably a matchup where the deck is much faster than you. they will find an answer to the leyline far before you will be able to kill them, especially if you had to mulligan into it. and you will never be able to replay it if it gets bounced.
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2) mana requirements for hellspark 4 mana for 6 damage = not efficient enough for my tastes
3) my choices for accents to the burn deck have been decided on over the last year of playing the deck, whether i receive scrutiny from the tread itself is not an issue to me because sanctioned legacy tournaments i walk away with pack prizes. first or second place consistently because no one expects an ensnaring bridge or red shrine. I recommend you trying 2 red shrines, as they can be game changing.
4) if you don't believe me, try it.
5) with 5 leyline effects in the board i rarely need to mulligan vs dredge.
6) barbarian ring help tarmogoyf? but so do fetchlands, but fetchlands help lavamancer, and reusable burn spells vs creatures is good to me. Merfolk lord on the stack, kill the other lord, can hellspark elemental do that? *crickets* yea, thought not.
Overall again, i didn't want to start a flame war just wanted to point out that the reasons for running hellspark OVER grim lavamancer is just not good for your Zoo, merfolk, or most other tribal deck match-up, because your going to want to keep them off of their creatures simply because their principle is the same as yours: kill them as quickly as possible.
also lavamancer can block and shoot another creature down before damage, so the versatility of Lavamancer vastly dwarfs the usability of a 2-pump-chump like hellspark elemental.
If either gets hit with swords you lose a creature, however, if it isnt sword-ed immediately, lavamancer can give you value by giving you 1 life and 2 damage (taking another creature with it) i feel no reason to not run lavamancers as they are the best option for the slot. Hellsparks are cute but not much else.
Going back to tarmogoyf, lavamancer will make goyf smaller. Hellspark most likely wont because you will have another creature blocking the goyf, eventually, so actually if you are not running lavamancer, in any matchup where your going to go up against a goyf, you will be doing half the work for them.
Thinking about the mana costs i would rather have shock on a stick then bolt for 2 mana that doesn't get thru a goyf. The problem with creatures is there needs to be nothing blocking them. If your playing against a goyf deck, you will be shooting yourself in the foot. Can't deal damage if ya can't get thru.
Short of a leyline of sanctity lavamancer just "gets there" a lot better than hellspark elemental.
Oh, about Vexing Shusher, it's another swords target and provide you with a way out against decks with force of will, because red blasts are after SB, but MB, i want the most played card in legacy to be a null one when i'm attempting to finish the game, if it can't attack from behind a bridge, it better do something for me, and oh brother, it's a big one. FoW turns into them 3 for 1'ing themselves.
GBW Control
UWB Esper Thing Control
The number of people playing Swords dropped dramatically, as it was just not effective unless you were playing your own MM to counter theirs. Stoneblade was the only deck running Swords.
So what do you do when you are not facing aggro? I see this as a good sideboard card, but not main deck. It's dead against combo, and control. you do NOT wan ANY dead cards game 1, that is supposed to be the game you win.
Hive mind is dead, grindstone nearly non-existent, at least while MM was around, and you cannot expect to draw 1 Emrakul in a matchup with show and tell, unless you are going to mulligan into it, again...
Leyline of the Void is THE WORST graveyard hate. Don't ever play it, unless you are black. All decks that use the graveyard can easily deal with it except landless dredge. When you get hit by a Chain of Vapor, don't say I didn't warn you.
ITS A DEAD CARD...DEAD. INSTEAD OF TRYING TO DRAW INTO MORE BURN....JUST ADD MORE BURN. ITS NOT LIKE YOU ARE TRYING TO ADD TO STORM COUNT, WHAT DO YOU MEAN "GO OFF" THIS ISN'T STORM....
Burn NEVER mulligans, its just what it does well. Its the same thing with zoo. Everything in the deck is so redundant, that is what protects you from mulligan, its not something special to your list.
Bridge is a fine sideboard card, I never knocked it. But main board is a no. It's just dead in too many matchups. Unless your meta is almost ALL aggro, I don't advise it.
-Sun Tzu
Decks I Play
EDH
RStarke of Rath chaosR
UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB
UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW
Legacy
WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW
RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW
XMUDX
I seriously disagree with pretty much everything you just said, but Iyou are right, i dont want to repeat myself and we dont need to start some stupid flame war that wont go anywhere, so I'll just leave it at that.
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and to MoT - you obviously don't go to any Starcity events or big legacy tournaments, where you may find 1 of this deck and 1 of that deck, you have to be prepared for the curve-ball's.
My meta is alot of combo, affinity, and stoneblade decks. And yes, i still beat them, why? adaptive meta mainboard. Manamorphose is probably the riskiest mb card, bridge trumps zoo, stoneblade, NO / Progenitus decks
see #4, calling my decisions bad without concrete numbers or playtesting time vs decks i play against makes me dismiss your arguement faster then it took you to write it.
Oh and tell those people running manaless dredge that leyline is the worst graveyard hate for dredge, they are going to laugh at you.
I would report MoT's post for spam but i'd rather hear opinions from him after he's tested the list vs merfolk and zoo. Merfolk is a terrible matchup for us and the mb bridge is what helps the most.
Please be more constructive with your criticism MoT. (Atleast i present an arguement instead of one line dismissal)
GBW Control
UWB Esper Thing Control
As I said before, however, I feel spooky's article was a great breakdown of budget deckbuilding and the logic of burn deck play style for people that are entering the format or looking for a new deck that's easy and cheap to build. His decklist was the epitome of the standard Legacy Burn shell, so picking it apart and comparing it to highly non-traditional lists containing card choices like Manamorphose and Ensnaring Bridge seems inappropriate to me.
spooky - I'm really excited to see an article on budget combo and/or pox. I've always loved black griefer-style decks, pox is an old time favorite that gets no love nowadays, despite the printings of strong cards for the archetype, such as Bloodghast. Again, keep up the good work!
The reach that a red shrine has as a two or 1 of it gains value incrementally over time or exponentially as you cast burn spells, even if you MUST kill a creature with a red shrine on board, you're building up your win condition while playing the control matchup.
Most of my matches end with me at around 13 life, on average. Some lower, some higher, but i love shrine, especially when i play 2-for-1 cards like searing blaze in the MB, blaze is a MB card all day for a tournament where you know X/3 creatures are going to be playing.
GBW Control
UWB Esper Thing Control
dude...Your arguments don't dismiss mine. All you say is that I've never tested it out so I'm wrong. Your sideboard is what you use to prepare for curveballs, but also, it needs to help you against what is popular at the time. cards in your sideboard need to have multiple uses. Ensnaring Bridge is fine, sideboard, but Emrakul just doesn't cut it. being only 15 cards you have little room to hate against fringe decks, where that space could be used to combat stuff you are more likely to see.
1) You still have not explained what Manamorphose does for you. It does not hurt any deck out there. You have no storm count to worry about, and no mana fixing is necessary. 2)Bring bridge in from the board to beat those decks, it being a dead card mainboard against many other decks outweighs its usefulness. I feel the need to question what zoo players you are facing where bridge just dominates them...all the zoo deck I ever face are playing 3-4 mainbard quasali pridemage, and 3-4 green sun's zenith. that's 6-8 cards that can easily deal with your bridge...
Ditto my friend. Spooky spent 5 weeks in a meta with some of the top players in the nation, including Ari-Lax, and Christopher Walton, Probably one of the best legacy metas in the country, and prized every week. I feel that he already stated this in his article and that should be plenty of testing and concrete numbers.
If you took the time to read my argument rather than just dismissing it, you would see that I mention Manaless dredge. Also I would like to point out to you that Manaless dredge is a fringe deck, and also has no reason to exist now that MM is banned. Manaless dredge evolved to combat the countering of regular dredges discard outlets. With no MM in the meta now, there will be no manaless dredge. It is slower and just all around worse than dredge with tireless tribe and careful study/breakthrough.
Saying you dont want to start a flame war, and then threatening to report me for spam is contradictory. Also, you cannot be serious that merfolk is a bad matchup for burn...I just watched spooky dominate countless merfolk players with his list, no bridge. he must have faced it 10 times in those weeks piloting the deck, and he lost to it 1 time...
I presented my arguments in my previous posts, and am defending my statements from your rebuttals. It is perfectly fine for me to expect you to be able to defend your choices, otherwise why make those choices? You have yet to give me a good reason to run Manamorphose, or even mainboard vexing shusher. I can understand you liking your artifacts if you are swamped with aggro in your meta, and that's fine if it is a meta decision. Saying that I am not being constructive with my criticism is showing that you are just ignorant to my help and are just ignoring the criticism all together.
-Sun Tzu
Decks I Play
EDH
RStarke of Rath chaosR
UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB
UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW
Legacy
WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW
RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW
XMUDX
Tempers are getting a bit heated, and this had better not turn into a flamefest argument.
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Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
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The problem is that many burn players have evolved their playstyle to the more familiar "play threat, burn things in the way, throw the rest of the burn at their face) due to the incredibly efficiency of Goblin Guide. If you were running creatures by that playstyle, the Lavamancer is a great choice (Figure too!). That said, it's entirely up to debate if that solid style is better than the combo feeling of the deck: throw seven cards at the opponent - Win.
BTW, I won't argue, but Vexing Shusher and Ensnaring Bridge do not belong in a burn deck since, well, they don't deal damage. If you want to go Burning Bridges (Bridge + Skullcap), by all means, but that's a much more slower and controllish deck that just might work in creature heavy metas. Or at least it did in Invasion Standard (burn stuff, finish opponent via Urza's Rage. It was a lot of fun and I think I'm gonna build that deck this month for fun!)
B Ob Nixilis, The Fallen - EDH
R Red Deck Wins - Standard
R Burn- Legacy
RG Spiders! - Multiplayer
GW Enchantress -Casual
U/G Treshold - Casual
RGU Snake-Tongue Aggro-Control - Retired
W Old School Rebels! -Retired
Thanks again!
Fallout can be an incredibly powerful meta choice, especially in a tribal heavy meta (it absolutely wrecks decks like elves, merfolk, and goblins). If you are in a control heavy meta, Vexing Shusher can be extremely good as well, especially against counter-top, where it totally negates their soft-lock. However, I personally don't feel it should ever be main deck. I also totally endorse Magma Jet, as two damage tacked on to that kind of card filtration is amazing in a red deck, where you frequently need to know if you've got gas on top of your deck; if you don't, the dig can sift away dead lands in the late game.
In my build, I actually run 4x each of goblin guides, grim lavamancers, and hellspark elementals. It gives you better flexibility if you get drawn into a longer game; with a clear board you unearth hellspark and crash, with a full board you have more fodder for lavamancer to go over their creature's heads, even as it chump blocks.
I've also done some testing with Flame Javelin as a 2 of. I'm still up in the air, there are times when it's fantastic (they flashback cabal therapy naming fireblast, only to see their game loss sitting in my hand) and times when it's terrible (stuck on two lands on turn 4, needing only to EOT javelin them and follow with a lightning bolt in my upkeep before they have a chance to stabilize).
While spooky's breakdown of the type of game burn wants to play is fundamentally correct, I personally believe (and I have no math to back this up) that running 12 mountain and 8 fetches gives much needed deck thinning and shuffle effects, especially with magma jet and grim lavamancer. I'd be happy to share the decklist I've used most recently; it carried me through 3-1 two weeks ago, destroying BUG rock, Team Italia, and Blue Zoo (lost to Stoneblade while misstep was still legal).
Also excited to re-use my Goblin Guides that just rotated and my Hellspark Elementals.
I understand the awesome power of Price of Progress, how does something like Anathemancer sound in a B/R burn deck? Unearth is more card advantage, and with flashback from Bump in the Night, it can be another late-game blast. Just a suggestion, again not a Legacy player myself.
This is my first Squandered Resources that I read, too, but it was very informative and well-written and thought out that I'm going to go back and try to read the other articles! Thanks for the read!