This thread is for the discussion of -spooky-'s latest article, Squandered Resources: Super Budget Super Series 5. Due to technical issues the thread that is normally created when an article is published didn't occur, so I have created this thread to allow you to talk about it. As always, please keep your comments on topic.
I suggest Funeral Charm instead of Duress for your monoblack. I know you're going for Spell and Planeswalker removal, but the instant speed is great. Nice decks.
I suggest Funeral Charm instead of Duress for your monoblack. I know you're going for Spell and Planeswalker removal, but the instant speed is great. Nice decks.
Funeral charm has its ups and downs. On one end, yes the instant speed discard can be pretty relevant. Not to mention the potential to kill smaller threats with its +2/-1 ability. That being said, the fact that you cannot choose which card to take is a pretty big hit. Also, you are not left with the additional information of what is left in your opponent's hand.
I think the charm is a fine card, and I have seen it used in Legacy Pox lists before, but it is my personal preference to leave it out. I would much rather use Duress so that I may take specific threats to my engine, as well as gain valuable insight into what other cards my opponent is holding.
Thank you very much, -spooky-, for yet another very great list of decks! I especially like the black control, which i just play tested advantageously with 4 Haunting Echoes lacking Sorin. The Wildfire theme is very funny. However, i find the deck weak against opponents which do not rely on creatures but e.g. on planeswalkers. It depends if you get the land destruction in place on time then, seemingly. Any ideas how to improve on that?
Happy to hear you like the lists! I like Sorin a lot, but I also like haunting echoes, so to each his own I guess.
Planeswalkers are certainly an issue of sorts. Though, you do have a few outs to them. Namely, earthquake as a 3 of, and inferno titan in a full playset, who can deal 3 damage to a walker upon resolving and attacking, even if he is blocked. If a jace bounces the titan you just play him again and he pings the jace for 3 more when he hits play. 7 powerful answers is pretty good, and you can bring in more form the board. All is Dust is a fine option, though for some reason its price has skyrocketed. You have plenty of ways to produce green mana, so Beast within can also come in from the board with little issue.
hm, you mean, by targeting the player who would rather not take the damage himself? maybe i'd have to playtest a bit to see if this helps enough...
When you do damage to a player you get to choose to put the damage on a planeswalker if you want. Your opponent has no say in the matter. Earthquake and inferno titan can both deal with planeswalkers with their direct damage.
That mono-black list is one of the coolest budget brews I've ever seen. I forget that Sorin Markov is a thing, but somehow he's just awesome here.
This is from a Gate player in Legacy, btw. Makes me want to sideline my Dark Confidants for a while and let my Bitterblossom tokens protect Sorin instead.
That mono-black list is one of the coolest budget brews I've ever seen. I forget that Sorin Markov is a thing, but somehow he's just awesome here.
This is from a Gate player in Legacy, btw. Makes me want to sideline my Dark Confidants for a while and let my Bitterblossom tokens protect Sorin instead.
Great work, as always.
Yup, I like every deck I wrote about here. They all stick out in their own way, Mono Black Control included. Bitterblossom could do some work in the list I'm sure, especially with Sorin's lifegain. Though, combining ensnaring bridge with null brooch seems counterproductive with the fairy generator.
@atl4n-
Lol, not a problem man. That's exactly what discussions are for. Walking away with knowledge you did not have before is never something you should worry about. I learn something every day, and most of the time it is because I did something stupid.
You'll have one card in your hand during your turn, so your faeries can almost always attack. Bitterblossom seems great here.
I guess in most situations you are correct. It is possible that you will have to use the card you draw as soon as you get it, or that you will be forced to discard it to protect your key cards through null brooch. Overall though, those are pretty situational and you can just attack again on the next turn, so yeah you are right.
Did you know Reality Ripple has an interesting little thing you can do vs. a certain heavy played card.
'Batterskull is a pain, but using Ripple, you can phase out the Germ Token. The 'skull goes with it indirectly (note, its phased out, but not via direct phasing.) The token ceases to exist and now batterskull is permanantly phased out.
Did you know Reality Ripple has an interesting little thing you can do vs. a certain heavy played card.
'Batterskull is a pain, but using Ripple, you can phase out the Germ Token. The 'skull goes with it indirectly (note, its phased out, but not via direct phasing.) The token ceases to exist and now batterskull is permanantly phased out.
Yup, I did not know this at the time that I wrote the article. Someone has already made me aware of it though. I really wish I had known so I could have included it! You learn something every day.
Hey James, thanks for the excellent article. I enjoy the thought of playing a wildfire deck. I made a few adjustments, adding chalice, wasteland and tanglewire as well as swapping thran dynamo for grim monolith. Do you think any of these cards have a place in the deck? The list looks like this:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
8 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Destructive Force
4 Wildfire
3 Earthquake
3 Talisman of Impulse
2 Coalition Relic
4 Gilded Lotus
3 Gruul Signet
3 Sundering Titan
2 Grim Monolith
4 Inferno Titan
4 Tangle Wire
There's not a ton of creature decks in my meta so I relegated pyroclasm to the sideboard. One thing I'm concerned about is if there is enough red to cast those double red spells since I added wasteland and replaced the sandstone needles.
Hey James, thanks for the excellent article. I enjoy the thought of playing a wildfire deck. I made a few adjustments, adding chalice, wasteland and tanglewire as well as swapping thran dynamo for grim monolith. Do you think any of these cards have a place in the deck? The list looks like this:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
8 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Destructive Force
4 Wildfire
3 Earthquake
3 Talisman of Impulse
2 Coalition Relic
4 Gilded Lotus
3 Gruul Signet
3 Sundering Titan
2 Grim Monolith
4 Inferno Titan
4 Tangle Wire
There's not a ton of creature decks in my meta so I relegated pyroclasm to the sideboard. One thing I'm concerned about is if there is enough red to cast those double red spells since I added wasteland and replaced the sandstone needles.
Really I can't agree with tangle wire or wasteland. Wasteland is bad because you want to be producing mana in order to cast your mana rocks in the early turns. After that, your wildfires will be taking out everything else. You need colored mana in your mountains as well. as far as tangle wire goes if things are going as planned you will never need it. It is a win more card that can do nothing in a lot of situations. Someone in an earlier thread of mine made the same changes and came to the same conclusions. Same with blood moon in the board.
swapping dynao for monolith is bad imho. If you have the money, play both.
Chalice and trinisphere are very good though. The list I took to a recent tournament had them both. I made top 8 and was VERY happy with the deck.
Really I can't agree with tangle wire or wasteland. Wasteland is bad because you want to be producing mana in order to cast your mana rocks in the early turns. After that, your wildfires will be taking out everything else. You need colored mana in your mountains as well. as far as tangle wire goes if things are going as planned you will never need it. It is a win more card that can do nothing in a lot of situations. Someone in an earlier thread of mine made the same changes and came to the same conclusions. Same with blood moon in the board.
swapping dynao for monolith is bad imho. If you have the money, play both.
Chalice and trinisphere are very good though. The list I took to a recent tournament had them both. I made top 8 and was VERY happy with the deck.
Ok, thanks for the input.:thumbsup: If I were to play the list you linked could I do without the burning wishes? If I were to take them out, what would the sideboard and the 4 slots maindeck look like then?
I really liked the wishes. They gave the deck a ton of options. I didn't actually have tooth and nail in the tournament I played in, but I spent the whole day wishing I did have it, as it certainly could have won me some games that I lost, or other games much quicker. Of course the deck works without wish, but I was very happy with the card. It's not in this article's version for obvious budget reasons.
Taking out the wishes means you can go back up to the full 4 of destructive force. I would add in another inferno titan, as that guy is insane. Finally, putting 2 Pyroclasm in the main, or a 4th trinisphere and another big mana rock (coalition relic, grim monolith or thran dynano). These are probably your best options.
As far as the actual board goes, I would at least stick to the 4 tormod's crypt and 3-4 Decree of Annihilation. From there, you want things like pulverize/shattering spree, pyroclasm/volcanic fallout (I LOVE fallout), and something to deal with jace and friends, like earthquake.
Here's my updated list. Sire of insanity was true to his name. The only problem is you can't wildfire or destructive force with him out but if you do it before you play him it doesn't matter. It's completely backbreaking.
4 Wildfire
4 Destructive Force
2 Earthquake
3 Trinisphere
1 Coalition Relic
4 Gilded Lotus
3 Grim Monolith
1 Talisman of Indulgence
4 Rakdos Signet
3 Thran Dynamo
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Sundering Titan
3 Sire of Insanity
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Badlands
4 Mountain
1 Swamp
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Volcanic Fallout
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Decree of Annihilation
SB: 1 All Is Dust
Here's a report. Round one I played chad with storm. Game one I played a chalice for one and that locked him out of a few key spells. It bought me enough time to land a sundering titan and I rode it to victory. Game two I had sire of insanity turn two off of double ancient tomb + grim monolith + rakdos signet. He discarded his hand and scooped it up on the spot.
Round two I played Andy with pox. Game one he played a turn one liliana off a dark ritual. I cast a chalice for one. Later I added a grim monolith and a wurmcoil but liliana reached 6 counters for her ultimate. He separated my lands into one pile and my artifacts into the other. I took the artifacts and rode wurmcoil to victory. Game two he had me discard a vital rakdos signet early. Small pox got rid of my sire of insanity and he killed me with a mishra's factory. Game three I had a trinisphere and tons and tons of mana rocks. I wildfired at least once and destructive forced his lands away. The trinisphere slowed him down immensely and he finally got a third land for a liliana. I played all is dust and took care of it. Another wildfire got rid of his lands and he was back to trying to topdeck lands. Once reaching his third one he went to fetch off a verdant catacombs and failed to find another land in his deck :tongue:. I finished him off with a wurmcoil.
Round three was I played against merfolk. Game one he played out two lords, a few other blue men, and two mutavaults. I couldn't find a wildfire but I played a wurmcoil. I was at 4 with wurmcoil on the defense but he could do 10 with his dudes and I died. If I had a wildfire that game I probably would have won. Game two I cast pyroclasm to kill two cursecatchers and a lord of atlantis. I followed it up with a sire of insanity and we both discarded our hands. I killed him with sire. Game three was kind of like game one except I had a wildfire, I was just short one mana to cast it. I played a gilded lotus so next turn i could cast wildfire. I tried to kill one of his lords with a pyroblast but he had a force of will to counter it and had exactly lethal on board. I also had to break a standstill early in the game.
Round four was swindy with dream halls + enter the infinite. Game one he cunning wished for research and development and then realized he forgot to desideboard. He had to scoop. Game two he had force of will for my wildfire and he killed me shortly after. Game three I tried to play chalice for three to cut off show and tell and cunning wish but he forced it. I tried to cast sire and it ate another force. Finally I got a sundering titan down and with little cards in his hand from having to force of will so much I had bought enough time to kill him. We agreed to draw despite my win because we could both make it.
All and all the deck is really fun and I need to get some badlands and red fetches so I don't have to borrow them.
I have a play set of Glimpse the Unthinkable from way back, is it worth splashing black in the Phasenought deck to include it? I guess the only function of it would be speeding up Phantasm but it might be worth it.
Regarding the Phasenought list, why use Ponder over Brainstorm? Do you choose that so you have the option of drawing a different, 4th card if you don't like any of the three?
Also, how would you start upgrading the deck? Would Force of Wills or Daze help out? I like the option of one of those so that I can potentially tap out for the combo on my second turn but have a little protection, just in case. Thoughts?
Brainstorm as a lone card is actually pretty terrible. What makes it good in Legacy is the fact that you can combine it with Fetch Lands, which allow you to shuffle away unwanted cards. Because we do not have the budget for fetch lands brainstorm is sub par, and so we go to what is a strictly better card when used alone. If you were to have the budget for fetch lands then preordain would probably be the card to be replaced.
Force of Will, Brainstorm plus Fetches, Stifle, V-clique. These would all be great additions.
Its definitely something to consider sure, but unless your whole meta is discard I wouldn't do anything past considering it. And yes, Wildfire is nuts against elves.
Ever consider something like Overmaster for the wildfire SB? I am not a legacy expert but it does seem like it could do something against permission, the one mana should not slow you down too much with all the mana production in the deck and the cantrip is always nice.
I was just wondering how the wildfire deck deals with artifact hate people might be packing for other decks. For example stony silence (?)
Overmaster is certainly a decent option, especially since you can wish for it if you play burning wish.
Artifact hate is something we can try to hate out in the board. It really is not that common of a thing, at least, something like stony silence is not. depending on the match up you can board our your wildfires and bring in more fatties to race into with your sol lands and try to win that way too.
Funeral charm has its ups and downs. On one end, yes the instant speed discard can be pretty relevant. Not to mention the potential to kill smaller threats with its +2/-1 ability. That being said, the fact that you cannot choose which card to take is a pretty big hit. Also, you are not left with the additional information of what is left in your opponent's hand.
I think the charm is a fine card, and I have seen it used in Legacy Pox lists before, but it is my personal preference to leave it out. I would much rather use Duress so that I may take specific threats to my engine, as well as gain valuable insight into what other cards my opponent is holding.
Like Squandered Resources on Facebook for updates on article releases, deck lists, and more!
Getting Started in Legacy and Legacy Budget Primer 5!
Special thanks to Bornnover for the banner used in those articles.
Happy to hear you like the lists! I like Sorin a lot, but I also like haunting echoes, so to each his own I guess.
Planeswalkers are certainly an issue of sorts. Though, you do have a few outs to them. Namely, earthquake as a 3 of, and inferno titan in a full playset, who can deal 3 damage to a walker upon resolving and attacking, even if he is blocked. If a jace bounces the titan you just play him again and he pings the jace for 3 more when he hits play. 7 powerful answers is pretty good, and you can bring in more form the board. All is Dust is a fine option, though for some reason its price has skyrocketed. You have plenty of ways to produce green mana, so Beast within can also come in from the board with little issue.
Like Squandered Resources on Facebook for updates on article releases, deck lists, and more!
Getting Started in Legacy and Legacy Budget Primer 5!
Special thanks to Bornnover for the banner used in those articles.
When you do damage to a player you get to choose to put the damage on a planeswalker if you want. Your opponent has no say in the matter. Earthquake and inferno titan can both deal with planeswalkers with their direct damage.
Like Squandered Resources on Facebook for updates on article releases, deck lists, and more!
Getting Started in Legacy and Legacy Budget Primer 5!
Special thanks to Bornnover for the banner used in those articles.
This is from a Gate player in Legacy, btw. Makes me want to sideline my Dark Confidants for a while and let my Bitterblossom tokens protect Sorin instead.
Great work, as always.
Yup, I like every deck I wrote about here. They all stick out in their own way, Mono Black Control included. Bitterblossom could do some work in the list I'm sure, especially with Sorin's lifegain. Though, combining ensnaring bridge with null brooch seems counterproductive with the fairy generator.
@atl4n-
Lol, not a problem man. That's exactly what discussions are for. Walking away with knowledge you did not have before is never something you should worry about. I learn something every day, and most of the time it is because I did something stupid.
Like Squandered Resources on Facebook for updates on article releases, deck lists, and more!
Getting Started in Legacy and Legacy Budget Primer 5!
Special thanks to Bornnover for the banner used in those articles.
I guess in most situations you are correct. It is possible that you will have to use the card you draw as soon as you get it, or that you will be forced to discard it to protect your key cards through null brooch. Overall though, those are pretty situational and you can just attack again on the next turn, so yeah you are right.
Like Squandered Resources on Facebook for updates on article releases, deck lists, and more!
Getting Started in Legacy and Legacy Budget Primer 5!
Special thanks to Bornnover for the banner used in those articles.
Did you know Reality Ripple has an interesting little thing you can do vs. a certain heavy played card.
'Batterskull is a pain, but using Ripple, you can phase out the Germ Token. The 'skull goes with it indirectly (note, its phased out, but not via direct phasing.) The token ceases to exist and now batterskull is permanantly phased out.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyYup, I did not know this at the time that I wrote the article. Someone has already made me aware of it though. I really wish I had known so I could have included it! You learn something every day.
Like Squandered Resources on Facebook for updates on article releases, deck lists, and more!
Getting Started in Legacy and Legacy Budget Primer 5!
Special thanks to Bornnover for the banner used in those articles.
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
8 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Destructive Force
4 Wildfire
3 Earthquake
3 Talisman of Impulse
2 Coalition Relic
4 Gilded Lotus
3 Gruul Signet
3 Sundering Titan
2 Grim Monolith
4 Inferno Titan
4 Tangle Wire
SB: 4 Trinisphere
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Blood Moon
SB: 4 Pyroclasm
There's not a ton of creature decks in my meta so I relegated pyroclasm to the sideboard. One thing I'm concerned about is if there is enough red to cast those double red spells since I added wasteland and replaced the sandstone needles.
Really I can't agree with tangle wire or wasteland. Wasteland is bad because you want to be producing mana in order to cast your mana rocks in the early turns. After that, your wildfires will be taking out everything else. You need colored mana in your mountains as well. as far as tangle wire goes if things are going as planned you will never need it. It is a win more card that can do nothing in a lot of situations. Someone in an earlier thread of mine made the same changes and came to the same conclusions. Same with blood moon in the board.
swapping dynao for monolith is bad imho. If you have the money, play both.
Chalice and trinisphere are very good though. The list I took to a recent tournament had them both. I made top 8 and was VERY happy with the deck.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1106205
Like Squandered Resources on Facebook for updates on article releases, deck lists, and more!
Getting Started in Legacy and Legacy Budget Primer 5!
Special thanks to Bornnover for the banner used in those articles.
Ok, thanks for the input.:thumbsup: If I were to play the list you linked could I do without the burning wishes? If I were to take them out, what would the sideboard and the 4 slots maindeck look like then?
Taking out the wishes means you can go back up to the full 4 of destructive force. I would add in another inferno titan, as that guy is insane. Finally, putting 2 Pyroclasm in the main, or a 4th trinisphere and another big mana rock (coalition relic, grim monolith or thran dynano). These are probably your best options.
As far as the actual board goes, I would at least stick to the 4 tormod's crypt and 3-4 Decree of Annihilation. From there, you want things like pulverize/shattering spree, pyroclasm/volcanic fallout (I LOVE fallout), and something to deal with jace and friends, like earthquake.
Like Squandered Resources on Facebook for updates on article releases, deck lists, and more!
Getting Started in Legacy and Legacy Budget Primer 5!
Special thanks to Bornnover for the banner used in those articles.
4 Wildfire
4 Destructive Force
2 Earthquake
3 Trinisphere
1 Coalition Relic
4 Gilded Lotus
3 Grim Monolith
1 Talisman of Indulgence
4 Rakdos Signet
3 Thran Dynamo
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Sundering Titan
3 Sire of Insanity
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Badlands
4 Mountain
1 Swamp
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Volcanic Fallout
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Decree of Annihilation
SB: 1 All Is Dust
Here's a report. Round one I played chad with storm. Game one I played a chalice for one and that locked him out of a few key spells. It bought me enough time to land a sundering titan and I rode it to victory. Game two I had sire of insanity turn two off of double ancient tomb + grim monolith + rakdos signet. He discarded his hand and scooped it up on the spot.
Round two I played Andy with pox. Game one he played a turn one liliana off a dark ritual. I cast a chalice for one. Later I added a grim monolith and a wurmcoil but liliana reached 6 counters for her ultimate. He separated my lands into one pile and my artifacts into the other. I took the artifacts and rode wurmcoil to victory. Game two he had me discard a vital rakdos signet early. Small pox got rid of my sire of insanity and he killed me with a mishra's factory. Game three I had a trinisphere and tons and tons of mana rocks. I wildfired at least once and destructive forced his lands away. The trinisphere slowed him down immensely and he finally got a third land for a liliana. I played all is dust and took care of it. Another wildfire got rid of his lands and he was back to trying to topdeck lands. Once reaching his third one he went to fetch off a verdant catacombs and failed to find another land in his deck :tongue:. I finished him off with a wurmcoil.
Round three was I played against merfolk. Game one he played out two lords, a few other blue men, and two mutavaults. I couldn't find a wildfire but I played a wurmcoil. I was at 4 with wurmcoil on the defense but he could do 10 with his dudes and I died. If I had a wildfire that game I probably would have won. Game two I cast pyroclasm to kill two cursecatchers and a lord of atlantis. I followed it up with a sire of insanity and we both discarded our hands. I killed him with sire. Game three was kind of like game one except I had a wildfire, I was just short one mana to cast it. I played a gilded lotus so next turn i could cast wildfire. I tried to kill one of his lords with a pyroblast but he had a force of will to counter it and had exactly lethal on board. I also had to break a standstill early in the game.
Round four was swindy with dream halls + enter the infinite. Game one he cunning wished for research and development and then realized he forgot to desideboard. He had to scoop. Game two he had force of will for my wildfire and he killed me shortly after. Game three I tried to play chalice for three to cut off show and tell and cunning wish but he forced it. I tried to cast sire and it ate another force. Finally I got a sundering titan down and with little cards in his hand from having to force of will so much I had bought enough time to kill him. We agreed to draw despite my win because we could both make it.
All and all the deck is really fun and I need to get some badlands and red fetches so I don't have to borrow them.
Regarding the Phasenought list, why use Ponder over Brainstorm? Do you choose that so you have the option of drawing a different, 4th card if you don't like any of the three?
Also, how would you start upgrading the deck? Would Force of Wills or Daze help out? I like the option of one of those so that I can potentially tap out for the combo on my second turn but have a little protection, just in case. Thoughts?
Edit: Snapcaster Mage have a home here too?
Force of Will, Brainstorm plus Fetches, Stifle, V-clique. These would all be great additions.
Like Squandered Resources on Facebook for updates on article releases, deck lists, and more!
Getting Started in Legacy and Legacy Budget Primer 5!
Special thanks to Bornnover for the banner used in those articles.
Like Squandered Resources on Facebook for updates on article releases, deck lists, and more!
Getting Started in Legacy and Legacy Budget Primer 5!
Special thanks to Bornnover for the banner used in those articles.
I was just wondering how the wildfire deck deals with artifact hate people might be packing for other decks. For example stony silence (?)
Artifact hate is something we can try to hate out in the board. It really is not that common of a thing, at least, something like stony silence is not. depending on the match up you can board our your wildfires and bring in more fatties to race into with your sol lands and try to win that way too.
Like Squandered Resources on Facebook for updates on article releases, deck lists, and more!
Getting Started in Legacy and Legacy Budget Primer 5!
Special thanks to Bornnover for the banner used in those articles.