This thread is for the discussion of Son of Makuta's latest article, A Complete Introduction to Deckbuilding, Part Three. Due to technical issues the thread that is normally created when an article is published didn't occur, so I have created this thread to allow you to talk about it. As always, please keep your comments on topic.
Just because it's written for new players doesn't mean it has to make the same mistakes new players often make. You want fight, not Plummet. (Essentially, you don't want Plummet because in limited, there are never enough flyers to make it worthwhile; I played green and didn't use one single flying hate card in AVR, and still came in first place. And in constructed, most creatures with flying that see play can't be answered by it, and flying is so 1993.)
Also, bluecreaturesareweak?Really? If anything in my experience, blue creatures are overpowered and green creatures only really become good in the 6+ cmc range, nixing combo pieces.
The other issue I have is that you didn't mention the things colors can't do; black can't destroy artifacts or enchantments, for instance.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Also, bluecreaturesareweak?Really? If anything in my experience, blue creatures are overpowered and green creatures only really become good in the 6+ cmc range.
Yes they are.
At any mana cost blue tends to have the lowest P/T and green tends to have the highest.
Blue creaturers have good abilities, but a the cost of a weak body. All your examples die to Pyroclasm
Talrand is a perfect example, once he gets going, he is great, but getting him going is not eas since he is a 4 drop, and almost every piece of removal can kill him.
The best blue creaturers all require the deck be set up to prodect/enable them. Green creaturers can usually go on their own.
Also: Nactal, Tarmagoyf, Thragtusk...
The best blue creaturers all require the deck be set up to prodect/enable them. Green creaturers can usually go on their own.
Also: Nactal, Tarmagoyf, Thragtusk...
1) Nacatl is not monogreen.
2) Yeah, Tarmo's not "build around me" at all. And it just happens the cards that Tarmo really wants (i.e., those that put cards in the graveyard very efficiently) are blue and black.
3) Thragtusk wouldn't be nearly as good without Deadeye Navigator.
Plus, two of those are two years older than the oldest of mine.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
2) Yeah, Tarmo's not "build around me" at all. And it just happens the cards that Tarmo really wants (i.e., those that put cards in the graveyard very efficiently) are blue and black.
Even when you do not build around him, he will usually end up as a 3/4+ between you and your opponent.which is still good for 2 mana. Goyf is broken in an optimized deck, but was still played in non-optimized decks because your opponent usually made him a bit stronger.
Actually he is, seeing as he is played very effectively in non blue decks. The navigator interaction is strong, if you can set it up. Tusk still stands on its own as a strong creature.
Plus, two of those are two years older than the oldest of mine.
Mostly because I am not as familiar with the cards for the last couple years as I am with say Onslaught block, and Green is not my color.
But the problem is you "Green is only good at 6+cmc" comment, whiich is plainly false, Lorwyn standard was filled with good green creaturers in the 2-4 range. same for most of the games history.
But the problem is you "Green is only good at 6+cmc" comment, whiich is plainly false, Lorwyn standard was filled with good green creaturers in the 2-4 range. same for most of the games history.
Which is why the iconic "bad vanilla" is green.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Since when is Squire green?
Green has about the same overcosted vanilla's that the other colors have, but it also has ones that would be undercosted elsewhere.
The big problem with green is, no removal, no evasion, and really, it offers nothing unless you want "a control deck, without all those worthless answers".
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Also, bluecreaturesareweak?Really? If anything in my experience, blue creatures are overpowered and green creatures only really become good in the 6+ cmc range, nixing combo pieces.
Generally, yes, blue creatures are weaker than their counterparts in other colours, especially in a smaller collection. While there are always exceptions and standout examples (Merfolk can be extremely strong, for intance), a lot of them are narrow and require building around. All of your examples fall into that category, making them demand synergy to be effective rather than be strong by themselves. Which doesn't necessarily make them bad, but it does lower their effectiveness in a small collection or an arbitrary board state.
Yeah, that would've been a better suggestion. I completely blanked on that one. Thanks!
More in-flavor, more Johnny possibilities, and a more universal answer! (The only reason anyone played Hurricane in the old days was because it damaged players.)
Generally, yes, blue creatures are weaker than their counterparts in other colours, especially in a smaller collection. While there are always exceptions and standout examples (Merfolk can be extremely strong, for intance), a lot of them are narrow and require building around. All of your examples fall into that category, making them demand synergy to be effective rather than be strong by themselves. Which doesn't necessarily make them bad, but it does lower their effectiveness in a small collection or an arbitrary board state.
It depends there. Like, I used Furor of the Bitten, equipment,
and Curse of Stalked Prey with Invisible Stalker in
Innistrad limited. Worked pretty well. Obviously, auras and equipment are common enough that the Stalker and the Agent aren't really "bad". You can even go RUG and (while it requires a God hand) win on turn 3 with the Agent.
It's actually a bigger concern. Especially since the entire game is "threat, answer".
Another thing: Reanimator and ramp are just combo. There's nothing aggro about it. Especially in Modern reanimator decks, where you need four mana just to flashback an Unburial Rites and five to cast it. Ramp simply can't be aggro for the same reason.
If you want an exemplar of an aggro-combo deck, infect fits the bill perfectly. Titanic Growth on an unblocked infect dude, suddenly your opponent's half-dead, and you can do that on turn 2 or (more likely) 3 or 4.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Just because it's written for new players doesn't mean it has to make the same mistakes new players often make. You want fight, not Plummet. (Essentially, you don't want Plummet because in limited, there are never enough flyers to make it worthwhile; I played green and didn't use one single flying hate card in AVR, and still came in first place. And in constructed, most creatures with flying that see play can't be answered by it, and flying is so 1993.)
Also, blue creatures are weak? Really? If anything in my experience, blue creatures are overpowered and green creatures only really become good in the 6+ cmc range, nixing combo pieces.
The other issue I have is that you didn't mention the things colors can't do; black can't destroy artifacts or enchantments, for instance.
On phasing:
Yes they are.
At any mana cost blue tends to have the lowest P/T and green tends to have the highest.
Blue creaturers have good abilities, but a the cost of a weak body. All your examples die to Pyroclasm
Talrand is a perfect example, once he gets going, he is great, but getting him going is not eas since he is a 4 drop, and almost every piece of removal can kill him.
The best blue creaturers all require the deck be set up to prodect/enable them. Green creaturers can usually go on their own.
Also: Nactal, Tarmagoyf, Thragtusk...
Fail: I had no idea Viral Drake died to Pyroclasm. And it's not like any of those dudes can't be boosted. Hell, that's the whole point to Stalker.
1) Nacatl is not monogreen.
2) Yeah, Tarmo's not "build around me" at all. And it just happens the cards that Tarmo really wants (i.e., those that put cards in the graveyard very efficiently) are blue and black.
3) Thragtusk wouldn't be nearly as good without Deadeye Navigator.
Plus, two of those are two years older than the oldest of mine.
On phasing:
Sorry, missed one when I checked your list.
Even when you do not build around him, he will usually end up as a 3/4+ between you and your opponent.which is still good for 2 mana. Goyf is broken in an optimized deck, but was still played in non-optimized decks because your opponent usually made him a bit stronger.
Actually he is, seeing as he is played very effectively in non blue decks. The navigator interaction is strong, if you can set it up. Tusk still stands on its own as a strong creature.
Mostly because I am not as familiar with the cards for the last couple years as I am with say Onslaught block, and Green is not my color.
But the problem is you "Green is only good at 6+cmc" comment, whiich is plainly false, Lorwyn standard was filled with good green creaturers in the 2-4 range. same for most of the games history.
Which is why the iconic "bad vanilla" is green.
On phasing:
Since when is Squire green?
Green has about the same overcosted vanilla's that the other colors have, but it also has ones that would be undercosted elsewhere.
The big problem with green is, no removal, no evasion, and really, it offers nothing unless you want "a control deck, without all those worthless answers".
On phasing:
Yeah, that would've been a better suggestion. I completely blanked on that one. Thanks!
Generally, yes, blue creatures are weaker than their counterparts in other colours, especially in a smaller collection. While there are always exceptions and standout examples (Merfolk can be extremely strong, for intance), a lot of them are narrow and require building around. All of your examples fall into that category, making them demand synergy to be effective rather than be strong by themselves. Which doesn't necessarily make them bad, but it does lower their effectiveness in a small collection or an arbitrary board state.
Good point. Thanks
More in-flavor, more Johnny possibilities, and a more universal answer! (The only reason anyone played Hurricane in the old days was because it damaged players.)
It depends there. Like, I used Furor of the Bitten, equipment,
and Curse of Stalked Prey with Invisible Stalker in
Innistrad limited. Worked pretty well. Obviously, auras and equipment are common enough that the Stalker and the Agent aren't really "bad". You can even go RUG and (while it requires a God hand) win on turn 3 with the Agent.
t1: land, possibly Birds of Paradise
t2: land, Blighted Agent
t3: land, Titanic Growth, Assault Strobe, swing for 10, GG
Also, in general, a spell costing one or two mana is better than one costing five or six. Especially in a color that has trouble answering creatures.
It's actually a bigger concern. Especially since the entire game is "threat, answer".
Another thing: Reanimator and ramp are just combo. There's nothing aggro about it. Especially in Modern reanimator decks, where you need four mana just to flashback an Unburial Rites and five to cast it. Ramp simply can't be aggro for the same reason.
If you want an exemplar of an aggro-combo deck, infect fits the bill perfectly. Titanic Growth on an unblocked infect dude, suddenly your opponent's half-dead, and you can do that on turn 2 or (more likely) 3 or 4.
On phasing: