This thread is for the discussion of Morningstar81's latest article, Legacy Analysis: Reflections & Slivers. Due to technical issues, the thread that is normally created when an article is published didn't occur, so I have created this thread to allow you to talk about it. As always, please keep your comments on topic.
Not a bad article. Not exactly agreeing with the card analysis too much, but I did greatly enjoy this line:
"... most of the cards on the reserved list that are not played in Legacy, Vintage or Commander have devalued (particularly considering inflation) despite being on the reserved list. This shows that the reserved list isn't working as intended, and that without Eternal formats, old cards would likely begin devaluing. Thus, the reserved list could end up defeating its own purpose..."
While there are plenty of cards that show to the contrary of this (Jihad is $30?), a brief look does show that the larger sum of cards, at least at a quick glance, do seem to be quite cheap if they're not played in Legacy/Vintage or have a variant that can be played in a later format (who prefers Arabian Nights City of Brass to the white-bordered 5th-8th Edition ones? I know I did, though at least now there's an MM version if you can't get a hold of the foil Super Series variant).
Modern Prices and likely modern prices aren't being driven up by scarcity, they're being driven up by speculators.
This time last year the modern fetchlands were 12-25 now they're 35-50. There is little demand for them at the moment.
Online Avenmindcensor went from 2 tickets to 8 (more than a Snapcaster Mage) in response to the full spoiler of MMA.
Demand is there but mtg speculation is what is killing our game.
Also don't lash out at modern because the reserve list is strangling legacy. If you don't like the format don't play it, but don't rag on the people who do.
Also don't lash out at modern because the reserve list is strangling legacy. If you don't like the format don't play it, but don't rag on the people who do.
This. I feel like most people who decide to bang on Modern and how it's been managed thus far are both frustrated Legacy players and ignorant of the growth of Legacy's ban list in it's first few years. With VERY few exceptions, I feel the Modern format is in capable hands. Initial bannings were to ensure the format wouldn't just be the same old Legacy/Extended meta-game. They've been pretty clear about what they want and don't want for the format.
EDIT: Going over it again, I'm struck by his assumption that people play Modern simply to get the slight flavor of an eternal format with the lower cost point. This is untrue, and another indicator of the general selfishness of the writer. The whole of the article, beyond the M14 evaluation, is just whining about the Reserve List and Modern.
I want to play cheap, powerful cards. I don't play legacy because of the prices. Honestly I just miss ponder and card selection.
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Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
You've expressed yours in a way so as to present in as fact.
"There was nothing inherently wrong with this, if they had done a good job in shaping up the Modern format, but unfortunately that was not the case."
"While in Legacy and Vintage WotC have been managing the Banned & Restricted list with sense and sensibility, in Modern they have been about as subtle as a hippopotamus"
Modern still has about half the ban list that Legacy does. And within one calendar year, Legacy once saw 20 bans. That doesn't sound very subtle at all. What IS missing is unbannings, which I do agree is something Modern is ready for.
Look, the column is called "Legacy Analysis" for a reason, it is devoted to the Legacy community.
I've expressed opinions that are shared by a large portion of that community. I am perfectly aware that other Magic communities have different opinions, and in no point in my article did I express disrespect for those communities or their opinions - I have simply stated my own opinions and those of my community.
Declaring a format as a failure or disappointment, and using terms such as "stupefied" comes across as rather insulting and disrespectful. Just so you know.
As I said in the article, the wonderful thing about Magic is that it can be almost whatever game the player wants it to be.
Those of us that enjoy Legacy enjoy cheap powerful spells, and we're concerned that, with the current direction of Standard and the state of Modern, if Legacy dies out, there will be nowhere left to go for us.
I've been playing Magic for 16 years now, so excuse me if I don't enjoy the prospect of quitting the game, and excuse me if I feel that the needs of a community of players like me are being neglected by WotC.
Your cards aren't going anywhere, are they? The format isn't going the way of Extended, is it? I've never had much unreasonable trouble finding Legacy games and tournaments online or in person. Last I checked, even with the issues of availability, people still play Legacy. And as even mentioned in your article, cards comes down the pipe which affect Legacy as a format (Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman).
So what exactly is the problem that troubles you so? That a Core Set doesn't have something splashy for Legacy? Since when has a Core Set been anything other than a very simple primer of Magic: The Gathering? That the Restricted List is a thing? Heaven forbid a company keeps a promise it made to the public. I find myself wishing sometimes that it didn't exist, but in the same breath I find myself commending Hasbro/WotC for turning down a potential gold mine for the sake of integrity. Furthermore, "Modern Masters" wasn't particularly affordable for most players, so I fail to see how a "Legacy Masters" set is going to be any different (I in fact would expect it to be worse). Unless of course it isn't the PRICE of the format staples that is worrisome but the QUANTITY of cards available that is holding Legacy back. But then that would render even more of your observations/opinions of the disappointment/failure of Modern moot.
By the way, I've been playing since '94. Not sure what that's supposed to mean to you, but seeing as how you felt throwing out how long you've been playing is supposed to mean something I felt obligated to do the same.
So what should I say if my opinion is that Modern is disappointing and that the direction in which Standard is going is somewhat stupefied in comparison with what it was?
I didn't even expect the last one to be polemic in the slightest given that WotC has been rather public about its effort to simplify the game.
Simplify is not the same as stupefy. A dictionary can help anyone figure that out.
Unfortunately I can't play Magic by myself, and the number of players in Legacy tournaments has dwindled down significantly over the past two years.
Cite your source for this, please.
Plus, the current buzz is that SCG is switching from Legacy to Modern, which may just be the nail in the coffin for Legacy.
Again, source please? Because...
Quote from Ben Bleiweiss Twitter »
"SCG has no intention of running Modern Opens. We feel Legacy is a better format, and plan on continuing it in 2013."
Moving right along...
That Magic is reaching is 20th birthday but WotC only seems to care about the last 10 years of its history.
Again, this is not a problem that troubles me alone, but a problem that troubles a large portion of the Legacy community.
They are ignoring the first 10 years of history by not reprinting a batch of cards that they promised not to reprint? Because I don't see then pretending those first 10 years didn't exist. I could swear Coldsnap (which came out in the last 10 years) was a follow-up/conclusion to Ice Age and Alliances (sets which came out in the first 10 years). Many older cards from the first 10 years have seen reprints in the FTV sets (such as Ancient Tomb, Hymn to Tourach, and Beserk). I mean, I can understand why the low quantity and high price point of many Legacy staples is troublesome to Legacy players, but how is this a problem any different now than it's ever been?
Again, unless there's something else you haven't explained properly yet, this reeks of more crying about the Restricted List.
Er... I thought that the point was pretty clear - I find it hard to have to quit something into which I've been invested for 16 years of my life.
If I had been playing Magic for 2 or 3 years, the prospect of quitting wouldn't be nearly as impactful.
That depends on, among other things, how much money you've invested into Magic during that time.
Magic isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Legacy isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Legacy and Modern are two very different beasts, and attract players for very different reasons. I play and love both formats. I don't feel you've produced any reason for which someone may logically come to the conclusion that Legacy is in any danger that hasn't already been a hurdle Legacy has faced for years (the price of entry and the Reserved List). If anything, in the last 5 years I've seen cards made which not only see Legacy play on a regular basis but sometimes turn the entire metagame on it's head - no small feat for a format as old and as rigid as Legacy. That Mental Misstep was formulated almost EXCLUSIVELY to affect the Legacy metagame flies in the face of what you claim to be worried about, regardless of the outcome.
Has anyone considered that WotC doesn't care about Legacy? What money does WotC make on Legacy card sales or tournaments? None. Not even a single cent. It's all after market product. The entire purpose of the Reserved List is to keep mistakes like Chronicles from never happening again. Plain and simple. The entire Modern Masters was a test on the waters of the magic community and a test for themselves. They didn't want another Chronicles. It was a terrible time for WotC. Modern Masters made them tons of money because of the chance that you might get a foil Tarmagoyf. It sold off the shelves. Modern gets support from WotC because there is a growing player base in the format and they can still make money on it. This is purely a business strategy. Why should WotC care about Legacy? Because a few players might stop playing? So be it. With Modern Masters they increased sales and the player base for the format. We will see more support for Modern, it's WotC's baby right now, but I believe that Legacy is a dead format. If you don't like Modern so be it but you can't change a business if what you love doesn't make them money. Plain and simple. They will support the formats that make them money. Right now that includes Standard, Modern and Commander. Legacy is dead. If you love big spells that aren't in Modern then try your hand at Commander. You might find that your Legacy staples have a new home.
So what should I say if my opinion is that Modern is disappointing and that the direction in which Standard is going is somewhat stupefied in comparison with what it was?
I didn't even expect the last one to be polemic in the slightest given that WotC has been rather public about its effort to simplify the game.
It's easy to infer that you're saying the format is less skillful.
The game isn't really much more simple. Look at previous standards what Standard format was more complicated? (Combo summer?, Necropotence? Affinity? Elephant Opposition? Caw blade?) Show me a standard that 8s actually more complex. Psychatog? These decks are all pretty straight forward.
Commons have been being simplified, and we don't have cards like Sharazad or Snowfall anymore. Is that really so bad?
Your opinion seems aimed at modern and it always annoys me to see legacy players whine about a format that has nothing to do with theirs. Modern isn't what is killing legacy the ban list keeps it from being Legacy lite. I mean I understand you're on step 1 and 2 (anger and denial) but the sad state is the reserve list in combination with Magic being a global game now means it's gonna die. (Gotta make it to acceptance)
Be happy you have SCG open's and GP's legacy masters just isn't going to happen.
Here's my take on the whole Legacy/Modern future of eternal formats thing.
There are certain realities that we need to accept.
1. The reserved list is most likely not going away. I say most likely because you simply never know. Promises have been made and broken throughout history in all walks of life. So nothing is absolute. However, if the RL remains then that means certain Legacy staples will never be reprinted and, eventually, will either be so scarce (through damage, loss, or whatever) or so expensive that many who would have played will choose not to. This means a dwindling player base. Eventually, the player base will dwindle to the point where local Legacy scenes will become harder and harder to find. How long will this take? Who knows? Could be a year, five years, ten years. I have no idea. But as long as Legacy staples on the RL can't be injected into the card pool, there are only so many people who can play this game.
2. WotC is apparently pushing Modern as the alternative. I think they even mentioned Modern as an alternative in one of their press releases. This means that they're going to put more time and money into Modern than Legacy. Therefore, in order for Legacy to get the kind of promotion it needs to keep going (eventually, all the old timers are going to either quit or die) somebody has to pick up the slack. I don't see SCG doing this long term because, quite honestly, the more WotC pushes Modern the more SCG is almost going to be forced to abandon Legacy and push Modern as well. Before that happens, they will probably dump a lot of Legacy staples at low prices. Again, when will this happen? It's anybody's guess. But as long as there can't be new blood injected into this game without somebody selling their cards, I don't see an alternative.
3. Magic is a business. WotC has to do what's best for it. We can see by the direction the game in general has taken (weaker spells, stronger creatures) that they're catering to a new crowd. If this is the business model that is making them the most money, whether some of the die hard Legacy players like it or not, they're not going to change it to appease us. Sure we may get some great creatures like DRS and Snapcaster to add to our arsenal, but the days of the Show and Tells and other powerful "broken" spells are over. Fact is, while a few cards DO make it into the Legacy card pool, the number is small and most likely not by design but simply by accident. There is simply no money in Legacy for WotC. Not when it can't package up a set of dual lands and other RL staples and say "Here, go fight over how much you're willing to pay for it." Look at the current FTV 20. The price for that set is going to be off the charts, and without one RL staple on it.
In short, WotC simply doesn't have to support or even care about Legacy to make money. Conversely, they can reprint any card for Modern in order to keep the format viable.
This isn't a matter of which format is better. That's all subjective anyway. It's a matter of what's going to keep WotC in business.
I play Legacy. I don't play Modern. But that doesn't matter. What matters is what's best for WotC. And whether I like it or not, catering to players like me is not in their best interests.
It would be wrong of me to say that I'm not happy that Legacy seems to be in decline. To be clear, though, that is just my personal observation. I have no data to back up that idea, on a worldwide meta scale.
Why am I happy with my observation that Legacy is in decline? I got really tired of decks that require the cost of double or more of my mortgage payment being the standard for the format. Yes, I could build some budget deck, but it would never be truly competitive unless I played in an absurdly weak meta. I'm not looking to pick on newer players who are still learning about the deeper aspects of deckbuilding and play, so a weak meta is not something that I enjoy. I would enjoy teaching them some higher strategy, but the buy-in for Legacy does not help with that.
That brings us to Modern and Standard. Here recently, Modern and Standard has become disturbingly similar to Legacy, in buy-in costs. There are ways around this, in that players can buy booster boxes in order to lighten the blow to the wallet. Singles, however, are a bit absurd.
I don't blame WotC for what they are doing with the Reserve List. What happens if they go back on their promise, and start reprinting cards on the reserve list in order to give Legacy the infusion it needs? There's going to be some [expletive] out there who will take that as an opportunity to sue. Yes, it's stupid, but it is safer for them to keep on with their current plan than to cater to players who are the last of a dying format (who also have the highest chance of having the sue-happy collector in their midst).
What I do hope, for the future of the game, is that WotC recognizes what has led to (again, my personal observation) the decline of the Legacy format, and takes action to prevent it from happening with Modern (and in some areas, Standard). They need to make the supply meet the demand, or the demand will naturally decline in relation to the price restrictions for newer players.
I understand that you are unhappy. I was a Legacy player as well, before Modern came about. I couldn't afford the Legacy staples, so I made my own format, and played with my friends. It was essentially Legacy, but with only Modern-bordered cards. It was like playing Legacy, but cheaper! But what happened? Modern was announced, and now I'm priced out of the very format that I so enjoyed. Yeah, it's crappy, and I'm not happy about it.
But I have a plan. I plan on just buying booster boxes and getting more into Standard. As time goes on, I'll have enough cardstock to be somewhat competitive in Modern as well (especially if they ever do a MM2, etc.). It's better than quitting a game I love to play. I only hope that WotC has a plan for players like you and I as well, by ensuring that they don't make the same mistakes with Modern and Standard that they have with Legacy (not ensuring that supply meets demand). I don't care that Legacy is on a decline. At least it gives me an alternative to the price-gouge that is currently Modern if it continues to decline.
If the RL doesn't go away, then WotC can't make money off of Legacy and it will die.
What I don't agree is that the RL can't go away.
As I stated in my article, it isn't doing what it was supposed to do. What is driving card prices are the Eternal formats, not the RL, and if these die out, the cards will devalue, regardless of whether or not they are in the RL.
I see nothing shameful in acknowledging that a past promise that was made for a purpose is no longer serving that purpose.
Judging from the popularity Legacy had durings its peak, there is certainly money in it for Wotc if it decides to do away with the RL and make a Legacy Masters.
I agree with you. The RL isn't doing what it's supposed to do. IMO, it's a worthless promise.
But here is the bigger reality.
Without the RL, these cards still wouldn't be reprinted.
How do I know this?
I look at one of the biggest Legacy staples in the format, a card that isn't on the RL, is ridiculously costed for an uncommon and 16 years after it's initial printing, it STILL hasn't been reprinted.
Why not? What's keeping this card from being reprinted? Nothing. So why hasn't it been?
The answer is simple. WotC no longer cares about Legacy. It is putting all its eggs into the Modern basket and hoping that players will forget Legacy exists.
Otherwise, why not at least throw us a bone, reprint FoW and at least slightly lower the cost of the format?
Onslaught fetches are another one. Why not reprint them? The prices are out of control on a couple of them.
You can pick up the trend by looking through TCDecks. Apart from SCG opens, the average number of players per tournament and the frequency of mid-large tournaments (60+ players) have dwindled down significantly since 2011 (which is as far back as you can go).
Feb 2011 Average Players per event (not counting SCG Open): 50.9
Feb 2013 Average Players per event (not counting SCG Open): 30.2
So Legacy is going to die because 20 less people per events are showing up over the last two years? Also note that the site is missing information for some of the events, and that because it carries no data for the years before 2011 it's impossible to track this as a trend. There simply isn't really enough information to make such a claim. I'm interested to see whether the numbers from 2011 are part of a downward trend, or the peak of an upward one.
What I've expressed is a conclusion that many a Legacy player has come to in recent times. I've heard quite a few Legacy players express their concern over the future of the format, and with half a mind to cash out.
I'm not saying that you haven't. I am questioning whether this is newsworthy material for an article, though. Even for MTGSalvation.
Maybe all is fine and dandy with the format where you play - good for you if it is - but in many other places, people are concerned, and feeling neglected by WotC.
Maybe things are a little sparse around the area where you play -my condolences if that's the case - but in many other places people are still playing plenty of Legacy events.
I feel that is a good enough reason to write an article, particular given the historical date.
If you disagree with my assessments or opinions, then we must agree to disagree.
You still haven't addressed my point on how WotC "doesn't care about Legacy and doesn't acknowledge you guys at all" when many new cards are Legacy playable, many of which become staples for many decks and strategies, and the existence of Mental Misstep is due exclusively to an desire to shake up the Legacy metagame.
Feb 2011 Average Players per event (not counting SCG Open): 50.9
Feb 2013 Average Players per event (not counting SCG Open): 30.2
So Legacy is going to die because 20 less people per events are showing up over the last two years? Also note that the site is missing information for some of the events, and that because it carries no data for the years before 2011 it's impossible to track this as a trend. There simply isn't really enough information to make such a claim. I'm interested to see whether the numbers from 2011 are part of a downward trend, or the peak of an upward one.
Not disqualifying it may be the peak of an upward trend. But I wouldn't look at it as 20 people, I'd look at it more as 41% decline. It's quite alarming.
Not disqualifying it may be the peak of an upward trend. But I wouldn't look at it as 20 people, I'd look at it more as 41% decline. It's quite alarming.
I pulled one month kinda at random just to get a feel for the numbers. I wouldn't be surprised to see other months pull much closer to each other.
For what it's worth, there were MORE Legacy events in Feb 2013 than there were in Feb 2011 (39 to 47). Legacy is still very much being played.
WotC has indeed become rather good at printing cards that affect Legacy without being broken in Standard. So sure, WotC does throw a bone to the Legacy community every now and then.
Which flies in the face of your earlier assessment that WotC does not care about Legacy or Legacy players.
However, that does absolutely nothing to make the format more affordable and available, or to attract new players to it. Unless WotC abolish the reserved list, Legacy will die out eventually. It may last a few more years in major European or US cities, but in smaller places it is already becoming impossible to find a Legacy game.
In many small places in America you have to travel far to play in Standard or Modern events. That's just part of being a fanatic of something still off the mainstream radar like Magic: The Gathering. I don't buy this excuse for one second.
Since WotC is carving a new Magic paradigm in Standard, centered around creatures and big spells, and is banning the appeal out of Modern (for some of us, at least), if they do decide to stick to the reserved list, then many current Legacy players will have nowhere else to go.
And again with the digs at Modern. 20 BANS IN ONE MONTH OF LEGACY. That is far beyond anything they've done thus far for Modern. And it's not a question of deciding to stick with the Reserve List. They have made it clear that they will not consider it at all, despite how vocal some of you may about it. As I stated above, even if the average number of players per event has dropped, there were much more Legacy events run in Feb 2013 than two years prior. Taken as a whole, the numbers of participants in Legacy events during the entire month pulled rather close to even. Seems like you have plenty of places to go, sorry if you might actually have to travel a bit for it. Players have been having to do that often for many many years for many many other formats.
If WotC had reprinted a few decent spells in M14 (e.g., Thoughtseize and Lightning Bolt) then maybe some of us could look to Standard with the hope of finding something appealing. Alas, that was not the case.
You were never going to "look to Standard". You would look to new sets to pick out which singles to order. And Thoughtseize? Lightning Bolt? One was just reprinted only a few years ago and shouldn't even be something you are crying about, and the other is pricey but is FAR LOWER on the list of overpriced Legacy staples. Sorry if it's harsh, but if you aren't willing to shed a few twenties to pick up a care you really want/need for Legacy, you shouldn't be trying to play Legacy.
Great article, I usually hate when some one tries to speak for a group but my feelings were well addressed by your words. Sometimes I think I'm as angry as you are about the way things are going, the shift from spells to creatures, the reserved list, the lack of legacy tournaments all of that, but then I take a step back, and realize that I'm pretty thankful for ever getting to play Legacy at all. That magic existed at all. That I was around long enough to remember getting locked down by stasis, and beaten to death(countless times) by morphling, and a hundred random little things. Change is scary, and fear breeds anger, but it doesn't have to be this way. I've just accepted that Legacy is going to die, and instead of being steamed about it, I've made up my mind to play as much of it as I can...Its kind of like having a loved one slowly die in front of you...you can feel angry...you can feel sad...or you can feel lucky to have the time that you still have, and a chance to make the most of it.
As far as the Legacy Vs. Modern goes, I love Legacy because these are the cards I grew up with, I will always have more affection for the old frame than the new ones. And as far as skill is concerned for those of you complaining about turn zero wins, you should know that there is an amount of luck involved in this game, but more often than not, against the right matchup luck just won't matter (its also one of the main reasons why Force of Will is as expensive as it is). That being said, learning all the ins and outs of brainstorm, or cabal therapy has been some of the most challenging things I've ever learned in magic, and it is also the most rewarding feeling to put these skills to use and OUT PLAY my opponent. I've tried my hand at many other formats, but Legacy is the only one that has negated luck to such a minuscule amount, leaving soo much room for skill and experience to dominate. Top decking a win may be a heck of a thrill, but out playing your opponent, now thats something to be proud of, and I just don't think you have too much opportunity to do so in Modern as opposed to Legacy.
I agree with you. The RL isn't doing what it's supposed to do. IMO, it's a worthless promise.
But here is the bigger reality.
Without the RL, these cards still wouldn't be reprinted.
How do I know this?
I look at one of the biggest Legacy staples in the format, a card that isn't on the RL, is ridiculously costed for an uncommon and 16 years after it's initial printing, it STILL hasn't been reprinted.
As much as I would like to point out that Jace, the Mind Sculptor is being reprinted. Besides this card is only legal in legacy and vintage.
I love legacy, I want FoW and friends to be reprinted, but we have to come into terms legacy will move in the direction of vintage
Unless WotC abolish the reserved list, Legacy will die out eventually. It may last a few more years in major European or US cities, but in smaller places it is already becoming impossible to find a Legacy game.
Since WotC is carving a new Magic paradigm in Standard, centered around creatures and big spells, and is banning the appeal out of Modern (for some of us, at least), if they do decide to stick to the reserved list, then many current Legacy players will have nowhere else to go.
I agree completely with the above!
I have been playing magic for almost 20 years now and have picked up on the trend for WotC favoring creatures and big spells in the standard format for the last several cycle. This is what drove me out of standard finally. The appeal of magic to me is in the creativity and the flexibility to build decks in multiple styles and ways to be competitive. I like the options in legacy to build a creature less deck that will win consistently or a deck that will over run someone. This is something the other formats cannot offer and it saddens me to lose this piece of magic. The RL list must go IMHO bring these cards back in a Legacy Masters type product. WotC is missing an opportunity to monetize the Legacy environment and create a revenue stream to keep magic going. I also believe looking at the Banned lists would be something they should do... reintroduce some of the heavy hitters back into the environment. Put Survival of the Fittest back in so we can see how the new tier 1 decks stack up to madness, shake up the environment that way also. I feel Legacy has a stop watch on it until it dies unless something is done. However it is still my favorite type and why I will continue to build multiple decks to loan out to my friends to play at the tournaments to keep interest in the format.
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Being both a Legacy and a Modern player (and enjoying both formats), I have some concerns with this article.
Another pebble in the shoe of Legacy players was the creation of the Modern format. ...... Instead of abolishing that relic of times gone by - the reserved list - and supporting Legacy, WotC decided to create Modern.
I don't see the relation here. Why would the creation of a new format have anything to do at all with the reserved list policy? Modern was not proposed a replacement/substitute for legacy as much as it was supposed to be just something new, and recently became the replacement of extended. If I remember correctly it was proposed (in different forms) as "over-extended" before its introduction. Modern by design does not include reserved list cards. Are you saying this was a planned course of action to avoid abolishing the reserve list? Because I would argue that they are not directly related.
I, for one, have no respect for a format in which Wild Nacatl is banned.
Its not like legacy hasn't had some controversial bannings during its lifetime. Many of the cards that are major players today were once banned for YEARS in the format. Would legacy be such a great format if cards didn't come off the ban list after YEARS of being on it? I for one would love to be able to play with mystical tutor and Survival of the fittest again, but we know where that boat sails. It not any different in my eyes than modern.
You also failed to mention ANYTHING about the biggest game changer to legacy that the set introduced, which is the new Legandary and Planeswalker rules. From the few legacy games I've played since their introduction I don't think I've had a match where it didn't have a impact on gameplay in some form or fashion, and legacy is IMO the format it impacts most deeply.
While modern has its flaws (as does legacy), I would like to see more to legacy articles/posts than just the obvious "abolish the reserved list" and "Modern is not as (insert) as Legacy because..." the reserved list has been an ongoing problem and if nothing has been done about it thus far, why would you expect that to change? or here is the question I really want to know, why point the finger at modern?
Okay, people hate the RL. People have been saying for years WotC should get rid of the RL so that they can reprint the cards for Legacy.
Exactly what on the RL, besides ABUR duals would *need* to be reprinted? FoW is not on the list, nor is wasteland. Candelabra? Moat? Tabernacle? Cradle? Morphling? Grim Monlith? I am guessing if WotC somehow found a way to reprint ABUR duals it would make a lot of people happy.
As far as what that would do for Legacy, who knows? If ABUR duals were more accessible, wouldnt that then increase Legacy's popularity, and in turn increase already expensive cards like Jace2, Goyf, Bob, Thoughtseize, wasteland, FOW, karakas, port etc? Wizards finding a way to reprint ABUR duals would only be step 1. They would also have to find somewhere to reprint all the $50+ cards (people have suggested Legacy Masters). Any idea what a box of a *potential* Legacy Master would cost if these kinds of cards were included? MMA boxes were going from $2-300....I couldn't imagine the 2ndary price of a Legacy Masters Box if it were to exist.
Modern is not an eternal format. WotC does not classify it as one either. One could look at it as a cheaper alternative (hah!) to legacy, but not by much. Modern seems more like a format where standard cards go to die, or live on after their standard rotation. Cards like GoST, IoK, SCM, Restoration Angel and such fall under this. It makes you feel a *little* better inside when you shell out for standard staples, and have a second use for them. The problem with Modern is the same problem as Legacy (but on a smaller scale), money. ZEN fetchlands were in the $10-15 range after they left standard. When Modern was announced they immediately double in priced, and have only continued to rise. Fetchlands are now $30-55 a piece. Cards like Goyf, Thoughtseize and Bob can make a decks price pretty large.
The other problem with Modern is, when they ban a card (like GSZ), people need an alternative. Chord of Calling filled that alternative, and its price is now near $40. I am unsure of the print runs for the older Modern sets, but since popularity has exploded the last few years, the recent sets have much more supply in the market than original ravnica or mirrodin blocks. This causes cards that start to see play to multiple in price.
You want to spend $60 on 4 Remand? I would rather go get myself a Rishadan Port, or 2 Plateau.
The one thing WotC is doing for Modern is keeping the format slow enough so that decks can actually exist. It doesn't have the tools like Legacy to fight true combo.
This article calls to mind comparisons to those notoriously crusty old men who scream at people for checking their smart phones all the time and expound on how tragically stupid everything has become. When in truth they are simply unwilling to move into a new comfort zone and enjoy new things.
2 mana hard counters, efficient land destruction, super-fast combo, and other such things were done away with because it made the game vastly more fun for the majority of players. These archaic conventions have no place in standard, or frankly, in modern.
Legacy isn't going anywhere, and Modern is not the "idiot" format you seem to be implying it is - nor is standard for that matter. The game has all the depth and strategy it always has... only in a different style than it did ten years ago. People resolve spells now and there are these things called permanents on the board. Crazy right?
I've been playing Magic for 18 years and I'm perfectly happy to enjoy the game as it stands today. Do I think things like color balance and game play still need tweaking? Sure. Do I think a few older power cards ought to see print again? Sure... but I never want to see anything even remotely like the way the game was ten years ago.
If you like Legacy, then play Legacy... it's expensive as heck, but that's the nature of the beast with eternal formats. The sky isn't falling on your favorite format... and contrary to what you might think, other formats are better off being less like legacy and vintage.
Reprints don't necessarily decrease the price of cards or make them more available, since they can raise the interest of a format and thus an increase in demand. In the case of Tarmogoyf, the people that cracked one and suddenly became interested in Modern outweighed the number that opened it and sold it immediately, and the price for Goyf actually rose.
If people open cards, they're going to want to play with them, price be damned, and sheer quantity of cardboard is not the only thing impacting the price.
I'm not arguing against reprints, but not reprinting duals and forces, cards that you can still find on whatever site you use to buy cards, will not kill legacy in the immediate future.
Wizards DID reprint a ton of old Legacy staples due to the overlap with Modern. Clique, Goyf, Scavenging Ooze, Bob, etc, and there are rumors of more Modern Masters sets in the future. On top of that, we have a reasonable number of Grand Prix, which is more than we used to get.
Wizards wants us playing Legacy. Any time we're playing Magic is good for them. The only way Legacy will lose all support and die is if it becomes wildly unpopular like Extended did, but there are no signs of that happening.
Modern is the worst format in my eyes, and with good reason. It is the least diverse format! When the vast majority of the format are midrange and combo strategies, and everything else is barely seen... we have a problem. Even standard is better off!
For serious? To name a few in modern we have:
Living End (Combo in game 1 and Control in 2&3)
JikiTwin (Combo)
Storm (Combo)
Infect (All in Aggro)
Affinity (Aggro)
Red Deck Wins (Aggro)
Pod Varients (MidRange - Combo)
ScapeShift (Control - Combo)
Jund (Midrange - Control)
RG Tron (Unique)
Eternal Command (Midrange)
UWR (Control or Tempo depending on build)
Merfolk (Tempo)
Complex Dredge (Control)
CawBlade (Tempo)
Rites Control (Control)
Soul Sisters (Control)
Control is about generating card advantage while providing efficeint ansswers. Control is different now because the most efficient card advantage and answers are no longer in the form of draw spells and counterspells. There is a healthy spread between aggro, combo, control, and midrange.
Isn't that irrelevant? I mean, the permanents on the board thing? Are you familiar with legacy, even? Cause it doesn't look like it.
There are lots of legacy decks that do use permanents like stoneblade, rock, and aggro varients, but there also a large portion of legacy decks that simply don't. Storm, dredge, and Show and Tell. Modern has a much smaller portion of decks that do this as Living End and Storm are the only real culprits.
The game doesn't have "all the depth and strategy it allways haD". When modern has such low amount of control, tempo and aggro, how can you say it has the same depth? When people no longer learn to bait and contain resources as they don't need to, how does it have the same strategy?
It has depth and strategy now just as much as ever the resources and answers have changed. Control exists but here's the thing, it usually isn't blue. Against Jund I always have to think what permanents I want to play first to bait out his Lilly and dreadbores. If I'm playing living end after they land some grave hate I have to be very particular on how I land my threats and when to cycle. I want to bait out the most creatures for my instant speed wrath. When you are playing soul sisters you have to be meticulous about when you play your spells to make sure you conserve as many resouces as possible. Complex dredge is probably the hardest to pilot control deck.
I've been playing for 15 years, and I am also perfectly happy to enjoy the game as it stands. Doesn't mean modern is in a good shape. It's not.
Why? The best standard of all times in terms of richness and variety was invasion-odyssey. To this day we still haven't seen regionals and continentals (which no longer exist, I know) with such a diversity among deck types. What are you running away from?
See, this is where you are completely wrong. Legacy is one of the few formats where decks of all types are present and getting results. It is the format where when some new explosive deck comes up, most likely the metagame will self-correct and adjust to it. It is rich by its diversity, it is always evolving to beat itself, this is what every format should aim to be!!! This is the epitome of a healthy format and it shouldn't simply be ignored!
Richness and variety are characteristics which set magic apart from other games. Why do you want to ignore strong points of the game you claim to like?
Which is exactly what modern is. Self correcting with new explosive decks popping up regularly in an extremely diverse field.
"As much as some of us hate seeing the game somewhat stupefied"
stu·pe·fy [stoo-puh-fahy, styoo-]
verb (used with object), stu·pe·fied, stu·pe·fy·ing.
1. to put into a state of little or no sensibility; benumb the faculties of; put into a stupor.
2. to stun, as with a narcotic, a shock, or a strong emotion.
3. to overwhelm with amazement; astound; astonish.
You're looking for a word that means "dumb down" but "stupefy" isn't it. In fact, a game CANNOT be stupefied, because the game itself has no sentience, and can't be stunned or put into a state of wonder.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Here are the little self-imposed guidelines I'm working with for the multiplayer decks I've been building:
• Must be cheap. Total price tag < $100, preferably < $50. Ideally ~$30. No one card greater than about ~$6
• Format: Modern (makes getting the cards somewhat easier for the play group, and almost all my cards are Modern-legal)
• Must be relatively interesting in 1:1 games. I don't need to win against Splinter Twin, but I should be able to play duels now and then
• Avoid instant-win combos; they only serve to make me target #1, and then the deck is worse than useless because I get killed first, every time
• Must have a funny name!
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My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
"... most of the cards on the reserved list that are not played in Legacy, Vintage or Commander have devalued (particularly considering inflation) despite being on the reserved list. This shows that the reserved list isn't working as intended, and that without Eternal formats, old cards would likely begin devaluing. Thus, the reserved list could end up defeating its own purpose..."
While there are plenty of cards that show to the contrary of this (Jihad is $30?), a brief look does show that the larger sum of cards, at least at a quick glance, do seem to be quite cheap if they're not played in Legacy/Vintage or have a variant that can be played in a later format (who prefers Arabian Nights City of Brass to the white-bordered 5th-8th Edition ones? I know I did, though at least now there's an MM version if you can't get a hold of the foil Super Series variant).
I dunno, talk on the reserve list has been going on for years, even so far back as this article that's (now) three years old: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/18888_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Visiting_Wizards_Reprints_and_the_Reserved_List.html
I wonder, though, how much more talking can we do before something is actually done...?
Sig and Avatar drawn by me.
This time last year the modern fetchlands were 12-25 now they're 35-50. There is little demand for them at the moment.
Online Avenmindcensor went from 2 tickets to 8 (more than a Snapcaster Mage) in response to the full spoiler of MMA.
Demand is there but mtg speculation is what is killing our game.
Also don't lash out at modern because the reserve list is strangling legacy. If you don't like the format don't play it, but don't rag on the people who do.
This. I feel like most people who decide to bang on Modern and how it's been managed thus far are both frustrated Legacy players and ignorant of the growth of Legacy's ban list in it's first few years. With VERY few exceptions, I feel the Modern format is in capable hands. Initial bannings were to ensure the format wouldn't just be the same old Legacy/Extended meta-game. They've been pretty clear about what they want and don't want for the format.
EDIT: Going over it again, I'm struck by his assumption that people play Modern simply to get the slight flavor of an eternal format with the lower cost point. This is untrue, and another indicator of the general selfishness of the writer. The whole of the article, beyond the M14 evaluation, is just whining about the Reserve List and Modern.
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
You've expressed yours in a way so as to present in as fact.
Modern still has about half the ban list that Legacy does. And within one calendar year, Legacy once saw 20 bans. That doesn't sound very subtle at all. What IS missing is unbannings, which I do agree is something Modern is ready for.
Declaring a format as a failure or disappointment, and using terms such as "stupefied" comes across as rather insulting and disrespectful. Just so you know.
Your cards aren't going anywhere, are they? The format isn't going the way of Extended, is it? I've never had much unreasonable trouble finding Legacy games and tournaments online or in person. Last I checked, even with the issues of availability, people still play Legacy. And as even mentioned in your article, cards comes down the pipe which affect Legacy as a format (Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman).
So what exactly is the problem that troubles you so? That a Core Set doesn't have something splashy for Legacy? Since when has a Core Set been anything other than a very simple primer of Magic: The Gathering? That the Restricted List is a thing? Heaven forbid a company keeps a promise it made to the public. I find myself wishing sometimes that it didn't exist, but in the same breath I find myself commending Hasbro/WotC for turning down a potential gold mine for the sake of integrity. Furthermore, "Modern Masters" wasn't particularly affordable for most players, so I fail to see how a "Legacy Masters" set is going to be any different (I in fact would expect it to be worse). Unless of course it isn't the PRICE of the format staples that is worrisome but the QUANTITY of cards available that is holding Legacy back. But then that would render even more of your observations/opinions of the disappointment/failure of Modern moot.
By the way, I've been playing since '94. Not sure what that's supposed to mean to you, but seeing as how you felt throwing out how long you've been playing is supposed to mean something I felt obligated to do the same.
Simplify is not the same as stupefy. A dictionary can help anyone figure that out.
Cite your source for this, please.
Again, source please? Because...
Moving right along...
They are ignoring the first 10 years of history by not reprinting a batch of cards that they promised not to reprint? Because I don't see then pretending those first 10 years didn't exist. I could swear Coldsnap (which came out in the last 10 years) was a follow-up/conclusion to Ice Age and Alliances (sets which came out in the first 10 years). Many older cards from the first 10 years have seen reprints in the FTV sets (such as Ancient Tomb, Hymn to Tourach, and Beserk). I mean, I can understand why the low quantity and high price point of many Legacy staples is troublesome to Legacy players, but how is this a problem any different now than it's ever been?
Again, unless there's something else you haven't explained properly yet, this reeks of more crying about the Restricted List.
That depends on, among other things, how much money you've invested into Magic during that time.
Magic isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Legacy isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Legacy and Modern are two very different beasts, and attract players for very different reasons. I play and love both formats. I don't feel you've produced any reason for which someone may logically come to the conclusion that Legacy is in any danger that hasn't already been a hurdle Legacy has faced for years (the price of entry and the Reserved List). If anything, in the last 5 years I've seen cards made which not only see Legacy play on a regular basis but sometimes turn the entire metagame on it's head - no small feat for a format as old and as rigid as Legacy. That Mental Misstep was formulated almost EXCLUSIVELY to affect the Legacy metagame flies in the face of what you claim to be worried about, regardless of the outcome.
Link: Ben Bleiweiss Twitter - Oct 26, 2012
It's easy to infer that you're saying the format is less skillful.
The game isn't really much more simple. Look at previous standards what Standard format was more complicated? (Combo summer?, Necropotence? Affinity? Elephant Opposition? Caw blade?) Show me a standard that 8s actually more complex. Psychatog? These decks are all pretty straight forward.
Commons have been being simplified, and we don't have cards like Sharazad or Snowfall anymore. Is that really so bad?
Your opinion seems aimed at modern and it always annoys me to see legacy players whine about a format that has nothing to do with theirs. Modern isn't what is killing legacy the ban list keeps it from being Legacy lite. I mean I understand you're on step 1 and 2 (anger and denial) but the sad state is the reserve list in combination with Magic being a global game now means it's gonna die. (Gotta make it to acceptance)
Be happy you have SCG open's and GP's legacy masters just isn't going to happen.
There are certain realities that we need to accept.
1. The reserved list is most likely not going away. I say most likely because you simply never know. Promises have been made and broken throughout history in all walks of life. So nothing is absolute. However, if the RL remains then that means certain Legacy staples will never be reprinted and, eventually, will either be so scarce (through damage, loss, or whatever) or so expensive that many who would have played will choose not to. This means a dwindling player base. Eventually, the player base will dwindle to the point where local Legacy scenes will become harder and harder to find. How long will this take? Who knows? Could be a year, five years, ten years. I have no idea. But as long as Legacy staples on the RL can't be injected into the card pool, there are only so many people who can play this game.
2. WotC is apparently pushing Modern as the alternative. I think they even mentioned Modern as an alternative in one of their press releases. This means that they're going to put more time and money into Modern than Legacy. Therefore, in order for Legacy to get the kind of promotion it needs to keep going (eventually, all the old timers are going to either quit or die) somebody has to pick up the slack. I don't see SCG doing this long term because, quite honestly, the more WotC pushes Modern the more SCG is almost going to be forced to abandon Legacy and push Modern as well. Before that happens, they will probably dump a lot of Legacy staples at low prices. Again, when will this happen? It's anybody's guess. But as long as there can't be new blood injected into this game without somebody selling their cards, I don't see an alternative.
3. Magic is a business. WotC has to do what's best for it. We can see by the direction the game in general has taken (weaker spells, stronger creatures) that they're catering to a new crowd. If this is the business model that is making them the most money, whether some of the die hard Legacy players like it or not, they're not going to change it to appease us. Sure we may get some great creatures like DRS and Snapcaster to add to our arsenal, but the days of the Show and Tells and other powerful "broken" spells are over. Fact is, while a few cards DO make it into the Legacy card pool, the number is small and most likely not by design but simply by accident. There is simply no money in Legacy for WotC. Not when it can't package up a set of dual lands and other RL staples and say "Here, go fight over how much you're willing to pay for it." Look at the current FTV 20. The price for that set is going to be off the charts, and without one RL staple on it.
In short, WotC simply doesn't have to support or even care about Legacy to make money. Conversely, they can reprint any card for Modern in order to keep the format viable.
This isn't a matter of which format is better. That's all subjective anyway. It's a matter of what's going to keep WotC in business.
I play Legacy. I don't play Modern. But that doesn't matter. What matters is what's best for WotC. And whether I like it or not, catering to players like me is not in their best interests.
Why am I happy with my observation that Legacy is in decline? I got really tired of decks that require the cost of double or more of my mortgage payment being the standard for the format. Yes, I could build some budget deck, but it would never be truly competitive unless I played in an absurdly weak meta. I'm not looking to pick on newer players who are still learning about the deeper aspects of deckbuilding and play, so a weak meta is not something that I enjoy. I would enjoy teaching them some higher strategy, but the buy-in for Legacy does not help with that.
That brings us to Modern and Standard. Here recently, Modern and Standard has become disturbingly similar to Legacy, in buy-in costs. There are ways around this, in that players can buy booster boxes in order to lighten the blow to the wallet. Singles, however, are a bit absurd.
I don't blame WotC for what they are doing with the Reserve List. What happens if they go back on their promise, and start reprinting cards on the reserve list in order to give Legacy the infusion it needs? There's going to be some [expletive] out there who will take that as an opportunity to sue. Yes, it's stupid, but it is safer for them to keep on with their current plan than to cater to players who are the last of a dying format (who also have the highest chance of having the sue-happy collector in their midst).
What I do hope, for the future of the game, is that WotC recognizes what has led to (again, my personal observation) the decline of the Legacy format, and takes action to prevent it from happening with Modern (and in some areas, Standard). They need to make the supply meet the demand, or the demand will naturally decline in relation to the price restrictions for newer players.
I understand that you are unhappy. I was a Legacy player as well, before Modern came about. I couldn't afford the Legacy staples, so I made my own format, and played with my friends. It was essentially Legacy, but with only Modern-bordered cards. It was like playing Legacy, but cheaper! But what happened? Modern was announced, and now I'm priced out of the very format that I so enjoyed. Yeah, it's crappy, and I'm not happy about it.
But I have a plan. I plan on just buying booster boxes and getting more into Standard. As time goes on, I'll have enough cardstock to be somewhat competitive in Modern as well (especially if they ever do a MM2, etc.). It's better than quitting a game I love to play. I only hope that WotC has a plan for players like you and I as well, by ensuring that they don't make the same mistakes with Modern and Standard that they have with Legacy (not ensuring that supply meets demand). I don't care that Legacy is on a decline. At least it gives me an alternative to the price-gouge that is currently Modern if it continues to decline.
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
I agree with you. The RL isn't doing what it's supposed to do. IMO, it's a worthless promise.
But here is the bigger reality.
Without the RL, these cards still wouldn't be reprinted.
How do I know this?
I look at one of the biggest Legacy staples in the format, a card that isn't on the RL, is ridiculously costed for an uncommon and 16 years after it's initial printing, it STILL hasn't been reprinted.
Force of Will
Why not? What's keeping this card from being reprinted? Nothing. So why hasn't it been?
The answer is simple. WotC no longer cares about Legacy. It is putting all its eggs into the Modern basket and hoping that players will forget Legacy exists.
Otherwise, why not at least throw us a bone, reprint FoW and at least slightly lower the cost of the format?
Onslaught fetches are another one. Why not reprint them? The prices are out of control on a couple of them.
Wasteland is another one. Why no reprint?
Point is, it's not just the RL that's hurting Legacy. It's WotC's refusal to reprint any expensive staples.
I don't see that changing, though as I said, nothing is ever 100%. So there is always a chance.
I'm just not going to hold my breath waiting for it to happen.
Feb 2011 Average Players per event (not counting SCG Open): 50.9
Feb 2013 Average Players per event (not counting SCG Open): 30.2
So Legacy is going to die because 20 less people per events are showing up over the last two years? Also note that the site is missing information for some of the events, and that because it carries no data for the years before 2011 it's impossible to track this as a trend. There simply isn't really enough information to make such a claim. I'm interested to see whether the numbers from 2011 are part of a downward trend, or the peak of an upward one.
I'm not saying that you haven't. I am questioning whether this is newsworthy material for an article, though. Even for MTGSalvation.
Maybe things are a little sparse around the area where you play -my condolences if that's the case - but in many other places people are still playing plenty of Legacy events.
You still haven't addressed my point on how WotC "doesn't care about Legacy and doesn't acknowledge you guys at all" when many new cards are Legacy playable, many of which become staples for many decks and strategies, and the existence of Mental Misstep is due exclusively to an desire to shake up the Legacy metagame.
Not disqualifying it may be the peak of an upward trend. But I wouldn't look at it as 20 people, I'd look at it more as 41% decline. It's quite alarming.
I pulled one month kinda at random just to get a feel for the numbers. I wouldn't be surprised to see other months pull much closer to each other.
For what it's worth, there were MORE Legacy events in Feb 2013 than there were in Feb 2011 (39 to 47). Legacy is still very much being played.
Which flies in the face of your earlier assessment that WotC does not care about Legacy or Legacy players.
In many small places in America you have to travel far to play in Standard or Modern events. That's just part of being a fanatic of something still off the mainstream radar like Magic: The Gathering. I don't buy this excuse for one second.
And again with the digs at Modern. 20 BANS IN ONE MONTH OF LEGACY. That is far beyond anything they've done thus far for Modern. And it's not a question of deciding to stick with the Reserve List. They have made it clear that they will not consider it at all, despite how vocal some of you may about it. As I stated above, even if the average number of players per event has dropped, there were much more Legacy events run in Feb 2013 than two years prior. Taken as a whole, the numbers of participants in Legacy events during the entire month pulled rather close to even. Seems like you have plenty of places to go, sorry if you might actually have to travel a bit for it. Players have been having to do that often for many many years for many many other formats.
You were never going to "look to Standard". You would look to new sets to pick out which singles to order. And Thoughtseize? Lightning Bolt? One was just reprinted only a few years ago and shouldn't even be something you are crying about, and the other is pricey but is FAR LOWER on the list of overpriced Legacy staples. Sorry if it's harsh, but if you aren't willing to shed a few twenties to pick up a care you really want/need for Legacy, you shouldn't be trying to play Legacy.
As far as the Legacy Vs. Modern goes, I love Legacy because these are the cards I grew up with, I will always have more affection for the old frame than the new ones. And as far as skill is concerned for those of you complaining about turn zero wins, you should know that there is an amount of luck involved in this game, but more often than not, against the right matchup luck just won't matter (its also one of the main reasons why Force of Will is as expensive as it is). That being said, learning all the ins and outs of brainstorm, or cabal therapy has been some of the most challenging things I've ever learned in magic, and it is also the most rewarding feeling to put these skills to use and OUT PLAY my opponent. I've tried my hand at many other formats, but Legacy is the only one that has negated luck to such a minuscule amount, leaving soo much room for skill and experience to dominate. Top decking a win may be a heck of a thrill, but out playing your opponent, now thats something to be proud of, and I just don't think you have too much opportunity to do so in Modern as opposed to Legacy.
RIP Karn EDH
As much as I would like to point out that Jace, the Mind Sculptor is being reprinted. Besides this card is only legal in legacy and vintage.
I love legacy, I want FoW and friends to be reprinted, but we have to come into terms legacy will move in the direction of vintage
I agree completely with the above!
I have been playing magic for almost 20 years now and have picked up on the trend for WotC favoring creatures and big spells in the standard format for the last several cycle. This is what drove me out of standard finally. The appeal of magic to me is in the creativity and the flexibility to build decks in multiple styles and ways to be competitive. I like the options in legacy to build a creature less deck that will win consistently or a deck that will over run someone. This is something the other formats cannot offer and it saddens me to lose this piece of magic. The RL list must go IMHO bring these cards back in a Legacy Masters type product. WotC is missing an opportunity to monetize the Legacy environment and create a revenue stream to keep magic going. I also believe looking at the Banned lists would be something they should do... reintroduce some of the heavy hitters back into the environment. Put Survival of the Fittest back in so we can see how the new tier 1 decks stack up to madness, shake up the environment that way also. I feel Legacy has a stop watch on it until it dies unless something is done. However it is still my favorite type and why I will continue to build multiple decks to loan out to my friends to play at the tournaments to keep interest in the format.
Its not like legacy hasn't had some controversial bannings during its lifetime. Many of the cards that are major players today were once banned for YEARS in the format. Would legacy be such a great format if cards didn't come off the ban list after YEARS of being on it? I for one would love to be able to play with mystical tutor and Survival of the fittest again, but we know where that boat sails. It not any different in my eyes than modern.
You also failed to mention ANYTHING about the biggest game changer to legacy that the set introduced, which is the new Legandary and Planeswalker rules. From the few legacy games I've played since their introduction I don't think I've had a match where it didn't have a impact on gameplay in some form or fashion, and legacy is IMO the format it impacts most deeply.
While modern has its flaws (as does legacy), I would like to see more to legacy articles/posts than just the obvious "abolish the reserved list" and "Modern is not as (insert) as Legacy because..." the reserved list has been an ongoing problem and if nothing has been done about it thus far, why would you expect that to change? or here is the question I really want to know, why point the finger at modern?
Exactly what on the RL, besides ABUR duals would *need* to be reprinted? FoW is not on the list, nor is wasteland. Candelabra? Moat? Tabernacle? Cradle? Morphling? Grim Monlith? I am guessing if WotC somehow found a way to reprint ABUR duals it would make a lot of people happy.
As far as what that would do for Legacy, who knows? If ABUR duals were more accessible, wouldnt that then increase Legacy's popularity, and in turn increase already expensive cards like Jace2, Goyf, Bob, Thoughtseize, wasteland, FOW, karakas, port etc? Wizards finding a way to reprint ABUR duals would only be step 1. They would also have to find somewhere to reprint all the $50+ cards (people have suggested Legacy Masters). Any idea what a box of a *potential* Legacy Master would cost if these kinds of cards were included? MMA boxes were going from $2-300....I couldn't imagine the 2ndary price of a Legacy Masters Box if it were to exist.
Modern is not an eternal format. WotC does not classify it as one either. One could look at it as a cheaper alternative (hah!) to legacy, but not by much. Modern seems more like a format where standard cards go to die, or live on after their standard rotation. Cards like GoST, IoK, SCM, Restoration Angel and such fall under this. It makes you feel a *little* better inside when you shell out for standard staples, and have a second use for them. The problem with Modern is the same problem as Legacy (but on a smaller scale), money. ZEN fetchlands were in the $10-15 range after they left standard. When Modern was announced they immediately double in priced, and have only continued to rise. Fetchlands are now $30-55 a piece. Cards like Goyf, Thoughtseize and Bob can make a decks price pretty large.
The other problem with Modern is, when they ban a card (like GSZ), people need an alternative. Chord of Calling filled that alternative, and its price is now near $40. I am unsure of the print runs for the older Modern sets, but since popularity has exploded the last few years, the recent sets have much more supply in the market than original ravnica or mirrodin blocks. This causes cards that start to see play to multiple in price.
You want to spend $60 on 4 Remand? I would rather go get myself a Rishadan Port, or 2 Plateau.
The one thing WotC is doing for Modern is keeping the format slow enough so that decks can actually exist. It doesn't have the tools like Legacy to fight true combo.
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
2 mana hard counters, efficient land destruction, super-fast combo, and other such things were done away with because it made the game vastly more fun for the majority of players. These archaic conventions have no place in standard, or frankly, in modern.
Legacy isn't going anywhere, and Modern is not the "idiot" format you seem to be implying it is - nor is standard for that matter. The game has all the depth and strategy it always has... only in a different style than it did ten years ago. People resolve spells now and there are these things called permanents on the board. Crazy right?
I've been playing Magic for 18 years and I'm perfectly happy to enjoy the game as it stands today. Do I think things like color balance and game play still need tweaking? Sure. Do I think a few older power cards ought to see print again? Sure... but I never want to see anything even remotely like the way the game was ten years ago.
If you like Legacy, then play Legacy... it's expensive as heck, but that's the nature of the beast with eternal formats. The sky isn't falling on your favorite format... and contrary to what you might think, other formats are better off being less like legacy and vintage.
If people open cards, they're going to want to play with them, price be damned, and sheer quantity of cardboard is not the only thing impacting the price.
I'm not arguing against reprints, but not reprinting duals and forces, cards that you can still find on whatever site you use to buy cards, will not kill legacy in the immediate future.
Wizards DID reprint a ton of old Legacy staples due to the overlap with Modern. Clique, Goyf, Scavenging Ooze, Bob, etc, and there are rumors of more Modern Masters sets in the future. On top of that, we have a reasonable number of Grand Prix, which is more than we used to get.
Wizards wants us playing Legacy. Any time we're playing Magic is good for them. The only way Legacy will lose all support and die is if it becomes wildly unpopular like Extended did, but there are no signs of that happening.
For serious? To name a few in modern we have:
Living End (Combo in game 1 and Control in 2&3)
JikiTwin (Combo)
Storm (Combo)
Infect (All in Aggro)
Affinity (Aggro)
Red Deck Wins (Aggro)
Pod Varients (MidRange - Combo)
ScapeShift (Control - Combo)
Jund (Midrange - Control)
RG Tron (Unique)
Eternal Command (Midrange)
UWR (Control or Tempo depending on build)
Merfolk (Tempo)
Complex Dredge (Control)
CawBlade (Tempo)
Rites Control (Control)
Soul Sisters (Control)
Control is about generating card advantage while providing efficeint ansswers. Control is different now because the most efficient card advantage and answers are no longer in the form of draw spells and counterspells. There is a healthy spread between aggro, combo, control, and midrange.
There are lots of legacy decks that do use permanents like stoneblade, rock, and aggro varients, but there also a large portion of legacy decks that simply don't. Storm, dredge, and Show and Tell. Modern has a much smaller portion of decks that do this as Living End and Storm are the only real culprits.
It has depth and strategy now just as much as ever the resources and answers have changed. Control exists but here's the thing, it usually isn't blue. Against Jund I always have to think what permanents I want to play first to bait out his Lilly and dreadbores. If I'm playing living end after they land some grave hate I have to be very particular on how I land my threats and when to cycle. I want to bait out the most creatures for my instant speed wrath. When you are playing soul sisters you have to be meticulous about when you play your spells to make sure you conserve as many resouces as possible. Complex dredge is probably the hardest to pilot control deck.
Which is exactly what modern is. Self correcting with new explosive decks popping up regularly in an extremely diverse field.
stu·pe·fy [stoo-puh-fahy, styoo-]
verb (used with object), stu·pe·fied, stu·pe·fy·ing.
1. to put into a state of little or no sensibility; benumb the faculties of; put into a stupor.
2. to stun, as with a narcotic, a shock, or a strong emotion.
3. to overwhelm with amazement; astound; astonish.
You're looking for a word that means "dumb down" but "stupefy" isn't it. In fact, a game CANNOT be stupefied, because the game itself has no sentience, and can't be stunned or put into a state of wonder.
• Must be cheap. Total price tag < $100, preferably < $50. Ideally ~$30. No one card greater than about ~$6
• Format: Modern (makes getting the cards somewhat easier for the play group, and almost all my cards are Modern-legal)
• Must be relatively interesting in 1:1 games. I don't need to win against Splinter Twin, but I should be able to play duels now and then
• Avoid instant-win combos; they only serve to make me target #1, and then the deck is worse than useless because I get killed first, every time
• Must have a funny name!