This thread is for the discussion of -spooky-'s latest article, Squandered Resources: Giving Thanks. Due to technical issues the thread that is normally created when an article is published didn't occur, so I have created this thread to allow you to talk about it. As always, please keep your comments on topic.
good article, definitely like that colorless Tron gets some love, I have been playing a similar Modern list for almost 3 years and I love it. less colored mana=more crazy threats.
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good article, definitely like that colorless Tron gets some love, I have been playing a similar Modern list for almost 3 years and I love it. less colored mana=more crazy threats.
Yeah, I figured it was time for some giant robot love. I originally wanted to play a Copper Gnomes deck, but when I figured out I could still play the Metalworker + Forgemaster build and still stay within budget I had to go with that.
The only thing i gon't understand is why do you run Ponder and Gitaxian Probe and do not use Brainstorm in the Nivmagus Aggro deck.
Brainstorm is actually pretty bad without fetch lands. Sure, it's nice for delver, but I would much rather trade a very small percent chance that I won't flip delver for never running into a brainstorm lock. Ponder and Preordain will do just fine.
I like the first deck, not much to say there except that I love crushing sneak and show with a $200 deck.
The second deck is awesome, except that you need more lightning greaves. The card eliminates both of metalworkers disadvantages, while simultaneously making any threat you land game-winning. I'm not sure what to cut though.
Since nic fit is my pet deck, I have a lot to write about it. Be prepared.
First of all, I *love* the idea for the deck. Awesome.
Technically, "nic fit" can refer to any creature-based veteran explorer deck. The most common builds of nic fit are bug pod, scapewish (scapeshift + burning wish), and punishing fire. Even these builds are very different. In addition, there are so many other developmental decks that can be classified under that name that this deck would definitely be one of them.
Now, on to the list. I like it, but there are too many 3- 4-ofs for a deck with gsz. One thing I noticed, especially since the deck is budget and can't run pernicious deed, is
Y U NO KITCHEN FINKS??????
(sorry, it's my favorite card)
In all seriousness, I think kitchen finks is a great card and especially in this deck. It generates card advantage and lifegain vs. aggro in the very early game so you don't get run over. It also does work vs. control, beating down or eating a swords. 1 or 2 should suffice.
The other card I would consider is eternal witness. This gives you staying power in the lategame if all your bombs were killed. At the very least, it gives you card advantage and gives your a mini-beater. A 1-of is good.
I think you should cut 1 prime time, 1 rampaging baloths and maybe 1 grave titan to make room for these.
In terms of the sideboard, nic fit has always has a major problem with combo. "But wait," you might say. "The deck has 4 cabal therapy in the mainboard!" The fact is, disruption isn't good enough. You also need a fast clock, which nic fit has been traditionally lacking in. Even stoneblade decks have batterskull that helps speed up their clock.
Now this deck is a little better in that regard, because a showed in prime time helps a lot vs. emrakul, and the combo helps speed up the clock. However, I think it will have issues consistently assembling the combo early enough to beat combo decks, which is why I suggest a more permanent answer. A split between memoricide and cranial extraction will help to slow your opponent down quite a while (and maybe even win on the spot) so that you can do your thing and kill them while they are still recovering.
4 veteran explorer 3 ste and 4 into the north is overdoing it. Since into the north isn't great in multiples or as the only ramp source I'd go down to 3. Also since ste can be gsz'd up I'd go down to 2 or 1. The bombs can stay.
hey spooky, have you considered clout of the dominus on the niv-magus deck? not totally in line with the deck phylosopy but it's pretty scary on the elemental or on the delver...
Clout was mentioned in the article as a sideboard option. It's strong, and I looked at playing it main deck, but I ended up just wanting everything else for my game 1's.
@ wavesofice-
I like having 2 greaves in mud. You can search for them, and they actually dont always solve your removal problems, as your opponent can just respond to the equip and kill your guy. I would much rather keep the slots I have, and just be able to search for the boots.
As far as titan ramp goes, I didnt want the deck to be "nic fit." In my mind, nic fit is yes, veteran explorer decks, but specifically, nic fit is a control deck. You run deed, you run Liliana, you run discard etc etc. You can run cards like kitchen finks because you are playing for the grindy games. The persist is great for long games where you need to find card advantage wherever you can. The same can be said for eternal witness, who is normally in the deck to grab your removal spells and deeds back. Rarely will she grab a fatty (in my experience) and even then, I would much rather just have her slot be another fatty. That way I can cast it, instead of using my mana to play her and then waiting a turn to play the fatty.
Don't get me wrong. Finks and witness are very powerful cards. They are just not really what I was looking for in the deck. Titan ramp was supposed to be a ramp deck that was more concentrated on powering into a game ending fatty using discard to stay ahead. The deck was never meant to grind like nic fit is. Because of this ramp play style that I was going for I would argue that into the north is indeed good in multiples. I want as much land as I can get my hands on so that my titans come down early. Also, With a baloth out I would love to top deck into the north. The same can be said for Sakura-Tribe Elder. I don't want to green sun for him, I want to green sun for my fatties, or for veteran explorer.
Now, it could turn out that a more grindy, more traditional nic fit build is better. I would never argue against that without testing. But, that's just not the approach I was going for with the deck. If I wanted to play a grindy nic fit list I would play the G/B pod deck I wrote about a few months back. That thing was sweet, and you and I spent a decent amount of time discussing it. For titan ramp though, I just wanted to get a ton of mana out early and kill some people with titans. The fact that I could also search for DD combo in multiple ways (including the Diabolic intent! So Sweet!) was just icing on the cake.
Thanks for the information though. Looking back I don't think I included finks in my pod list, and I really should have. Witness was included, and sat along side Glissa.
Your opponent needs to both have mana up and have instant speed removal to make the greaves irrelevant. Because if your opponent doesn't have removal, whether it's equipped to metalworker or a bomb, it will often win on the spot. For that reason, I would want to draw one every game (especially since it only comes out after metalworker if you don't tutor for it).
About nic fit:
Not all nic fit decks run deed (though most do). Many nic fit decks don't run liliana or any discard other than therapy maindeck. But kitchen finks can still be good. The fact of the matter is, the veteran explorer engine isn't perfect. You will get a t3 prime time sometimes, but not always. You need a way to stall to bridge the gap. Kitchen finks is not just card advantage, it's stall.
Eternal witness is more of a personal preference, and I like the versatility and card advantage it provides. I don't think it's necessary though.
With the ramp sources, I kinda derped in that I didn't realize you had snow basics in the deck. Yes, you are correct that 4 into the north is correct. However, gsz for ste will be quite useful when you have 1 or 2 fatties in hand already. Going down to 1 or 2 I think is correct.
Brainstorm is actually pretty bad without fetch lands. Sure, it's nice for delver, but I would much rather trade a very small percent chance that I won't flip delver for never running into a brainstorm lock. Ponder and Preordain will do just fine.
I understand, but isn't Brainstorm useful for searching for answers in instant speed?
You could, for exemple, save one in hand just so you could dig for a Spell Pierce in the opponent's turn.
I understand, but isn't Brainstorm useful for searching for answers in instant speed?
You could, for exemple, save one in hand just so you could dig for a Spell Pierce in the opponent's turn.
This would be true enough if we ran force of will. Having no free counterspells however, means that we would need to be keeping mana open in order to cast brainstorm AND the counterspell we find. This means we would not be spending our mana on aggressive plays on our own turn. I'm not sure that is the correct choice. :/
@Wavesofice-
I guess my next counterpoint is that, if greaves is so powerful, why do no Legacy metalworker decks play 4 of it? To my knowledge, every single metal worker list that has ever made a good showing at a large tournament has only ran 1-2. Even Vintage lists only run 2. You don't ever want to see it in multiples, so you don't run 4. That's how I see it.
As far as titan ramp goes, I'm going to be testing it some more I guess. I have since added a stomping grounds and a wolf run which can both be tutored with my prime time as well.
I have no idea why most legacy MUD decks only run 1-2 lightning greaves. However, from my goldfishing and seeing it in action lightning greaves is simply amazing, and I think it's worth the risk of drawing multiples.
I like the wolf run idea. In addition, do you think adding treetop villages is a good idea?
I have no idea why most legacy MUD decks only run 1-2 lightning greaves. However, from my goldfishing and seeing it in action lightning greaves is simply amazing, and I think it's worth the risk of drawing multiples.
I like the wolf run idea. In addition, do you think adding treetop villages is a good idea?
I thought about running a 1-of man land of some kind. I don't know how it will affect my game plan, and if there will be any situation where I would want to find it though.
I thought about running a 1-of man land of some kind. I don't know how it will affect my game plan, and if there will be any situation where I would want to find it though.
I think they're good vs. stp.dec. You would kinda have to run 2 though
Actually I would run them over wolf run. If you're getting wolf run you might as well get depths combo and if not you probably want treetops. It also budgetizes it a bit more. Treetops are a lot worse vs tempo though.
I really like wolf run. Yeah, you always search for the DD combo first, but there have been plenty of times in my testing that I either already had it, or I searched for it and it was answered. At that point my titan became much less powerful, because I had nothing else to search for. Having wolf run means that even if my DD gets answered, I still have wolf run and a ton of land to make any creature I draw a threat.
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Yeah, I figured it was time for some giant robot love. I originally wanted to play a Copper Gnomes deck, but when I figured out I could still play the Metalworker + Forgemaster build and still stay within budget I had to go with that.
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The only thing i gon't understand is why do you run Ponder and Gitaxian Probe and do not use Brainstorm in the Nivmagus Aggro deck.
Brainstorm is actually pretty bad without fetch lands. Sure, it's nice for delver, but I would much rather trade a very small percent chance that I won't flip delver for never running into a brainstorm lock. Ponder and Preordain will do just fine.
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Getting Started in Legacy and Legacy Budget Primer 5!
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I like the first deck, not much to say there except that I love crushing sneak and show with a $200 deck.
The second deck is awesome, except that you need more lightning greaves. The card eliminates both of metalworkers disadvantages, while simultaneously making any threat you land game-winning. I'm not sure what to cut though.
Since nic fit is my pet deck, I have a lot to write about it. Be prepared.
First of all, I *love* the idea for the deck. Awesome.
Technically, "nic fit" can refer to any creature-based veteran explorer deck. The most common builds of nic fit are bug pod, scapewish (scapeshift + burning wish), and punishing fire. Even these builds are very different. In addition, there are so many other developmental decks that can be classified under that name that this deck would definitely be one of them.
Now, on to the list. I like it, but there are too many 3- 4-ofs for a deck with gsz. One thing I noticed, especially since the deck is budget and can't run pernicious deed, is
Y U NO KITCHEN FINKS??????
(sorry, it's my favorite card)
In all seriousness, I think kitchen finks is a great card and especially in this deck. It generates card advantage and lifegain vs. aggro in the very early game so you don't get run over. It also does work vs. control, beating down or eating a swords. 1 or 2 should suffice.
The other card I would consider is eternal witness. This gives you staying power in the lategame if all your bombs were killed. At the very least, it gives you card advantage and gives your a mini-beater. A 1-of is good.
I think you should cut 1 prime time, 1 rampaging baloths and maybe 1 grave titan to make room for these.
In terms of the sideboard, nic fit has always has a major problem with combo. "But wait," you might say. "The deck has 4 cabal therapy in the mainboard!" The fact is, disruption isn't good enough. You also need a fast clock, which nic fit has been traditionally lacking in. Even stoneblade decks have batterskull that helps speed up their clock.
Now this deck is a little better in that regard, because a showed in prime time helps a lot vs. emrakul, and the combo helps speed up the clock. However, I think it will have issues consistently assembling the combo early enough to beat combo decks, which is why I suggest a more permanent answer. A split between memoricide and cranial extraction will help to slow your opponent down quite a while (and maybe even win on the spot) so that you can do your thing and kill them while they are still recovering.
Modern Patagia Viper Combo
pfiremc13 on the source
Inkfathom Biomage on Undisclosed Magic Software
I should stop making so many different names for myself.
4 veteran explorer 3 ste and 4 into the north is overdoing it. Since into the north isn't great in multiples or as the only ramp source I'd go down to 3. Also since ste can be gsz'd up I'd go down to 2 or 1. The bombs can stay.
Modern Patagia Viper Combo
pfiremc13 on the source
Inkfathom Biomage on Undisclosed Magic Software
I should stop making so many different names for myself.
Clout was mentioned in the article as a sideboard option. It's strong, and I looked at playing it main deck, but I ended up just wanting everything else for my game 1's.
@ wavesofice-
I like having 2 greaves in mud. You can search for them, and they actually dont always solve your removal problems, as your opponent can just respond to the equip and kill your guy. I would much rather keep the slots I have, and just be able to search for the boots.
As far as titan ramp goes, I didnt want the deck to be "nic fit." In my mind, nic fit is yes, veteran explorer decks, but specifically, nic fit is a control deck. You run deed, you run Liliana, you run discard etc etc. You can run cards like kitchen finks because you are playing for the grindy games. The persist is great for long games where you need to find card advantage wherever you can. The same can be said for eternal witness, who is normally in the deck to grab your removal spells and deeds back. Rarely will she grab a fatty (in my experience) and even then, I would much rather just have her slot be another fatty. That way I can cast it, instead of using my mana to play her and then waiting a turn to play the fatty.
Don't get me wrong. Finks and witness are very powerful cards. They are just not really what I was looking for in the deck. Titan ramp was supposed to be a ramp deck that was more concentrated on powering into a game ending fatty using discard to stay ahead. The deck was never meant to grind like nic fit is. Because of this ramp play style that I was going for I would argue that into the north is indeed good in multiples. I want as much land as I can get my hands on so that my titans come down early. Also, With a baloth out I would love to top deck into the north. The same can be said for Sakura-Tribe Elder. I don't want to green sun for him, I want to green sun for my fatties, or for veteran explorer.
Now, it could turn out that a more grindy, more traditional nic fit build is better. I would never argue against that without testing. But, that's just not the approach I was going for with the deck. If I wanted to play a grindy nic fit list I would play the G/B pod deck I wrote about a few months back. That thing was sweet, and you and I spent a decent amount of time discussing it. For titan ramp though, I just wanted to get a ton of mana out early and kill some people with titans. The fact that I could also search for DD combo in multiple ways (including the Diabolic intent! So Sweet!) was just icing on the cake.
Thanks for the information though. Looking back I don't think I included finks in my pod list, and I really should have. Witness was included, and sat along side Glissa.
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Your opponent needs to both have mana up and have instant speed removal to make the greaves irrelevant. Because if your opponent doesn't have removal, whether it's equipped to metalworker or a bomb, it will often win on the spot. For that reason, I would want to draw one every game (especially since it only comes out after metalworker if you don't tutor for it).
About nic fit:
Not all nic fit decks run deed (though most do). Many nic fit decks don't run liliana or any discard other than therapy maindeck. But kitchen finks can still be good. The fact of the matter is, the veteran explorer engine isn't perfect. You will get a t3 prime time sometimes, but not always. You need a way to stall to bridge the gap. Kitchen finks is not just card advantage, it's stall.
Eternal witness is more of a personal preference, and I like the versatility and card advantage it provides. I don't think it's necessary though.
With the ramp sources, I kinda derped in that I didn't realize you had snow basics in the deck. Yes, you are correct that 4 into the north is correct. However, gsz for ste will be quite useful when you have 1 or 2 fatties in hand already. Going down to 1 or 2 I think is correct.
Modern Patagia Viper Combo
pfiremc13 on the source
Inkfathom Biomage on Undisclosed Magic Software
I should stop making so many different names for myself.
I understand, but isn't Brainstorm useful for searching for answers in instant speed?
You could, for exemple, save one in hand just so you could dig for a Spell Pierce in the opponent's turn.
This would be true enough if we ran force of will. Having no free counterspells however, means that we would need to be keeping mana open in order to cast brainstorm AND the counterspell we find. This means we would not be spending our mana on aggressive plays on our own turn. I'm not sure that is the correct choice. :/
@Wavesofice-
I guess my next counterpoint is that, if greaves is so powerful, why do no Legacy metalworker decks play 4 of it? To my knowledge, every single metal worker list that has ever made a good showing at a large tournament has only ran 1-2. Even Vintage lists only run 2. You don't ever want to see it in multiples, so you don't run 4. That's how I see it.
As far as titan ramp goes, I'm going to be testing it some more I guess. I have since added a stomping grounds and a wolf run which can both be tutored with my prime time as well.
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I like the wolf run idea. In addition, do you think adding treetop villages is a good idea?
Modern Patagia Viper Combo
pfiremc13 on the source
Inkfathom Biomage on Undisclosed Magic Software
I should stop making so many different names for myself.
I thought about running a 1-of man land of some kind. I don't know how it will affect my game plan, and if there will be any situation where I would want to find it though.
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I think they're good vs. stp.dec. You would kinda have to run 2 though
Actually I would run them over wolf run. If you're getting wolf run you might as well get depths combo and if not you probably want treetops. It also budgetizes it a bit more. Treetops are a lot worse vs tempo though.
Modern Patagia Viper Combo
pfiremc13 on the source
Inkfathom Biomage on Undisclosed Magic Software
I should stop making so many different names for myself.
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Getting Started in Legacy and Legacy Budget Primer 5!
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They both kill in 2 turns after you get prime time, but wolf run is worse on its own and is more weak to removal.
Modern Patagia Viper Combo
pfiremc13 on the source
Inkfathom Biomage on Undisclosed Magic Software
I should stop making so many different names for myself.