Bill Cosby said it: “why are you buying hundred dollar shoes when you don’t pay your child support?” There needs to be a strong force in our culture turning people away from addiction, wasteful spending, debt, contempt of education, and self destructive activities and violence. Unfortunately, people listen to rappers and commercials, which want to keep people in that cycle or at least advocate it.
I can't pull a figure of the top of my head as to the cumulative debt as of this date of every American, but I'm sure you all realise how inordinatley huge it is. Consumerism isn't inherently bad, but rampant consumerism sure isn't doing alot to help the poor, and even the middle class in this country. People's priorities when it comes to money lies with expensive technology, big house, even bigger cars, and useless trinkets sold on TV in infomercials, not in providing for college, or even working towards financial security.
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Quote from Cochese »
Do threads in this forum ever not get hijacked by the magical invisible hand of the market guys?
The situation is more complicated than it appears. Asian families that came here had no more economic tools than African families that had been here for generations, but they also didn't have the massive psychological problems that had been passed down for generations. Jim Crow did it's best to destroy the independence, self-reliance, entrepneurialship, and dignity of black families. It's easy for those that don't have that inheritance to forget the massive attacks upon the psyche of blacks living in the US- and while no one wants to discuss it, those attacks weren't exactly ineffective. Africans spent generations being told that they were lazy, stupid, lustful, violent, simple, and incapable. Those that tried to fight the system were broken, ignored at best or lynched at worst, and those that caved in did better. There is far more afflicting black culture than a mere legacy of poverty. There are numerous examples from the 20th century of where black communities did overcome stereotypes to prosper and become relatively rich... and then were attacked, burnt, and destroyed by their jealous white neighbors.
Then the best way to get rid of these tendencies is to enforce the laws that protect our minorities.
All in all, there is no one really "to blame" for the poverty of our lower class. To a certain extent, I agree that it isn't all "their" fault, and it certainly isn't the fault of the upper class. The only fitting recommendation from this is, however, to let the lower classes figure it out themselves.
Because the white people that lived in this country before, who made up the dominant society, systematically oppressed or slaughtered the ancestors of the current red and black people living here.
That's not "society."
No one likes to acknowledge this as a simple fact, because it's a touchy subject, but this is so. Did everyone who was white do these things? No. But they either stood by or were ineffective at stopping those who used superior numbers and technology to break and destroy societies. These societies were themselves generally warlike and assholish, because this is the nature of mankind, but the fact remains. Less than fifty years ago, people were beaten, tortured and killed in this nation for "forgetting" their place, a place dictated by their skin tone. Do you understand? This isn't ancient history. This isn't something residual that should long since be forgotten. There are people in these communities who grew up with parents that were such victims, and most had grandparents who felt the sting of racial rule that was dominant for so long in this nation. These are real, palpable scars that left definable marks on black and red society in America. And these scars go back much further than for yellow people, who only came to this country en masse around a hundred years ago.
At some point, however, blacks decided that instead of resiliency, they would meet oppression with extraordinary displays of helplessness.
Much of black society's current predicament comes from self-victimization, especially as, and maybe because, most whites still feel responsible for what their ancestors accomplished.
Everyone's happy to inherit the positive aspects of their culture. Few white people growing up in a middle class suburbia stop to question how they got to that position, what their ancestors did to get there, and who their society stepped on to own this land. People are happy to inherit their parents' money, but no one thinks they should inherit their debt.
Well, that's just it. They don't. If your parents owed a lot of money, you shouldn't be saddled with it. You shouldn't be demanding a piece of a non-existent estate, but you aren't responsible for your parent's wealth. Inheritance is basically a gift.
Now, this isn't to say that programs like welfare and affirmative action are beneficial, or that the state of victimhood being marketed in black culture today is healthy, because these things are clearly only adding to the damage, but we can't pretend that there is no Earthly reason why anger and resentment should exist in red and black (and yes, yellow and brown, and in many cases, white) cultures.
Fine, but this in no way justifies any action that would aversely affect another group, especially not in the name of justice.
But acknowledging a problem isn't the same as finding a solution to it. Ultimately the only solution is to move on and improve. The best and only form of reparataions we can hope for is a strong, comprehensive free educational system that gives everyone an equal opportunity, regardless of how badly their ancestors were abused or exploited.
At some point, however, blacks decided that instead of resiliency, they would meet oppression with extraordinary displays of helplessness.
Some did. I would say that the new stereotype facing blacks is that they do act in such a way, even those who accept their past and are working hard to correct it. Many white Americans like to overreact today and hide their past- they treat any simple statements of facts of history on the oppression of blacks as evidence that the black person in question is some lazy welfare mooch "reverse-racist", etc., etc... It's one thing to say "move on", but there really isn't a widespread acknolwedgement of how badly our government has treated those of darker skin in this nation. Of course, then after obscuring the true evils of slavery, we have the gall to condemn the Japanese government for not teaching about atrocities it's predecessor committed during WWII... ah well.
Many white Americans like to overreact today and hide their past- they treat any simple statements of facts of history on the oppression of blacks as evidence that the black person in question is some lazy welfare mooch "reverse-racist", etc., etc...
On the contrary, but I see your point.
It would be best not to dwell on either the racism of the past or the counter-racism of the present.
I sort of agree, but at the same time I don't think we can ignore the past simply because it's unpleasant. More desirable would be learning to treat history as just that.
I can't pull a figure of the top of my head as to the cumulative debt as of this date of every American, but I'm sure you all realise how inordinatley huge it is. Consumerism isn't inherently bad, but rampant consumerism sure isn't doing alot to help the poor, and even the middle class in this country. People's priorities when it comes to money lies with expensive technology, big house, even bigger cars, and useless trinkets sold on TV in infomercials, not in providing for college, or even working towards financial security.
Please define consumerism. I may have some things to say about its possible inherent badness.
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Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
Please define consumerism. I may have some things to say about its possible inherent badness.
The exchange of money for goods at either
a. a higher rate than is neccessary to survive
b. ...goods that are not neccessary to survive (luxury items)
c. both
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Quote from Cochese »
Do threads in this forum ever not get hijacked by the magical invisible hand of the market guys?
In order for there to be rich people someone has(many have) to get poor.
Woah there, if I buy a bunch of stock A, and it explodes, and I get very rich, who have I made very poor??
if I start a company based on a new patent and it grows and I sell it and get very rich, who have I made very poor?? who did peter adkinson and richard garfield make very poor i ask, because they were someone what poor before, well, you know
I live in a VERY rich area (Sammamish plateau washington, avg house price is about 800,000, avg car mercedes)-note that my family is way below that. Most of the people here work at microsoft, got rich in stock, or started companies that got bought by microsoft or att or the like
I would say the biggest thing poor people do that causes them to stay poor is be stagnant. I will say that the amount of homeless/poor people in America that make absolutely zero effort whatsoever to get a job is staggering.
What I dont understand is why the homeless/poor American doesn't go to a shelter for a haircut, shower, and shave, get a job at McDonalds (anyone can get a ob at McDonalds) eventually make enough money to live someone. If that person has a family, the next generation is slightly better off, will get the education and make more money and the next generation might go to vocational school, and the next generation community college, and if in hte middle a idea is patented or a company started the ascension will be much quicker. Over many generations, you have a well of American line just like yours and mine. Granted luckish type things can happen and shatter this, I know that you someone on the other team might break your finger the minute before you make the shot to win the game, but you still have to get on the court. I bet most of our families were poorer than they are now somewhere down the line.
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Formerly known as steve-o
The internet is like drugs, it can be alot of fun, but most people on it say really stupid stuff
The exchange of money for goods at either
a. a higher rate than is neccessary [sic] to survive
b. ...goods that are not neccessary [sic] to survive (luxury items)
c. both
If "necessary to survive" weren't economically meaningless, you might be on to something.
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I can't pull a figure of the top of my head as to the cumulative debt as of this date of every American, but I'm sure you all realise how inordinatley huge it is. Consumerism isn't inherently bad, but rampant consumerism sure isn't doing alot to help the poor, and even the middle class in this country. People's priorities when it comes to money lies with expensive technology, big house, even bigger cars, and useless trinkets sold on TV in infomercials, not in providing for college, or even working towards financial security.
Then the best way to get rid of these tendencies is to enforce the laws that protect our minorities.
All in all, there is no one really "to blame" for the poverty of our lower class. To a certain extent, I agree that it isn't all "their" fault, and it certainly isn't the fault of the upper class. The only fitting recommendation from this is, however, to let the lower classes figure it out themselves.
That's not "society."
At some point, however, blacks decided that instead of resiliency, they would meet oppression with extraordinary displays of helplessness.
Much of black society's current predicament comes from self-victimization, especially as, and maybe because, most whites still feel responsible for what their ancestors accomplished.
Well, that's just it. They don't. If your parents owed a lot of money, you shouldn't be saddled with it. You shouldn't be demanding a piece of a non-existent estate, but you aren't responsible for your parent's wealth. Inheritance is basically a gift.
Fine, but this in no way justifies any action that would aversely affect another group, especially not in the name of justice.
Education is a whole 'nother debate.
Some did. I would say that the new stereotype facing blacks is that they do act in such a way, even those who accept their past and are working hard to correct it. Many white Americans like to overreact today and hide their past- they treat any simple statements of facts of history on the oppression of blacks as evidence that the black person in question is some lazy welfare mooch "reverse-racist", etc., etc... It's one thing to say "move on", but there really isn't a widespread acknolwedgement of how badly our government has treated those of darker skin in this nation. Of course, then after obscuring the true evils of slavery, we have the gall to condemn the Japanese government for not teaching about atrocities it's predecessor committed during WWII... ah well.
On the contrary, but I see your point.
It would be best not to dwell on either the racism of the past or the counter-racism of the present.
Please define consumerism. I may have some things to say about its possible inherent badness.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
a. a higher rate than is neccessary to survive
b. ...goods that are not neccessary to survive (luxury items)
c. both
Woah there, if I buy a bunch of stock A, and it explodes, and I get very rich, who have I made very poor??
if I start a company based on a new patent and it grows and I sell it and get very rich, who have I made very poor?? who did peter adkinson and richard garfield make very poor i ask, because they were someone what poor before, well, you know
I live in a VERY rich area (Sammamish plateau washington, avg house price is about 800,000, avg car mercedes)-note that my family is way below that. Most of the people here work at microsoft, got rich in stock, or started companies that got bought by microsoft or att or the like
I would say the biggest thing poor people do that causes them to stay poor is be stagnant. I will say that the amount of homeless/poor people in America that make absolutely zero effort whatsoever to get a job is staggering.
What I dont understand is why the homeless/poor American doesn't go to a shelter for a haircut, shower, and shave, get a job at McDonalds (anyone can get a ob at McDonalds) eventually make enough money to live someone. If that person has a family, the next generation is slightly better off, will get the education and make more money and the next generation might go to vocational school, and the next generation community college, and if in hte middle a idea is patented or a company started the ascension will be much quicker. Over many generations, you have a well of American line just like yours and mine. Granted luckish type things can happen and shatter this, I know that you someone on the other team might break your finger the minute before you make the shot to win the game, but you still have to get on the court. I bet most of our families were poorer than they are now somewhere down the line.
The internet is like drugs, it can be alot of fun, but most people on it say really stupid stuff
If "necessary to survive" weren't economically meaningless, you might be on to something.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Thats the point; consumerism is a broad concept that covers a variety of degrees of intensity.