That doesn't really follow. Because GNC hasn't gone out of business doesn't mean that all of their products work. It could be a subset of their products work and sales of those products keep the company afloat. It could be that none of GNC's products work but "a sucker is born every minute." The fact that GNC is open doesn't really have any bearing on whether or not what they sell actually does what it claims to do.
Charlatanism is one of those things that just won't die. People have been selling snake oil for as long as there has been a public willing to spend money. Either the customer buys into the hype or is desperate enough to go for anything that claims to be a cureall. The problem with snake oil is that even after a particular instance has been proven to not work another will pop up and prey on the same people.
And why are you so hung up on the FDA? The FDA prevents companies from marketing dangerous items as medicine. That's a good thing.
In the old days, when a snake oil salesman came to town, he only lasted as long as people felt the product worked. Then he was run out of town. If GNC was selling things that didnt work on some level, they would not be in business. Hell in this day and age, the law suits alone would make them close their doors.
The FDA makes drugs about money and not about getting people better. As for the FDA protecting people, you can die from over the counter drugs just as easy as those they force testing on. I would much rather live in a world where the doctor has the option to try risky drugs in cases where those drugs are a last result or die. The way it is now, they either die or go to a country that allows the doctors to use the known drugs.
The government really needs to stop with trying to protecting people from themselves. People need to take responsiblity for their own actions.
In the old days, when a snake oil salesman came to town, he only lasted as long as people felt the product worked. Then he was run out of town.
This, unfortunately, is not true. Healers in Europe were bleeding patients for every ailment for thousands of years, prescribing bizarre concoctions of animal testicles and dung, and doing countless other things which medical science and even most alternative practitioners agree simply do not work. People always feel better when they feel like they're in control of what happens to them, which means they feel better when they go to a "doctor" and take what they believe to be a medical treatment. This is the placebo effect, and it's kept quacks in business - and in the same towns - forever.
If GNC was selling things that didnt work on some level, they would not be in business. Hell in this day and age, the law suits alone would make them close their doors.
Law suits that a supplement which is labeled as "not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease" does not diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease have a remarkably short life expectancy.
In the old days, when a snake oil salesman came to town, he only lasted as long as people felt the product worked. Then he was run out of town. If GNC was selling things that didnt work on some level, they would not be in business. Hell in this day and age, the law suits alone would make them close their doors.
If they sold products that were actually dangerous or violated laws against making unverified claims. GNC isn't stupid. They're not going to sell something that could actually harm you.
The FDA makes drugs about money and not about getting people better. As for the FDA protecting people, you can die from over the counter drugs just as easy as those they force testing on.
Back before the FDA actually had any authority, shoe stores had X-Ray machines where parents would stick their kids feet inside to check if shoes fit. People were putting radium in their drinking water because companies were saying it would cure all sorts of ailments. Companies were actively promoting using and ingesting radioactive materials. Radioactive stuff was new and flashy and companies jumped on the bandwagon of promoting it as medicine.
People died from this irresponsible behavior. Were these people stupid? Not really. Radiation wasn't well understood and the companies and customers didn't really know the risks it posed. Even if the companies had noble intentions, such as curing arthritis, their actions still caused real harm to people who didn't have the knowledge to protect themselves.
The FDA prevents this sort of thing today. They are protecting you from yourself because you can't know everything. The responsibility for what you put in your body is your own, of course, but companies are still going to try to get you to put their product in your body. They may think they are noble and believe radiation really is a great force that improves your health, or they may just be using the radiation fad to make a quick buck. Regardless, companies will lie to you if they can. They will tell you radium infused water will prevent acid reflux if that is what you are looking for.
Unless you can independently verify everything a company tells you about a product you are going to ingest then you must take them at their word that the product will not harm you. Luckily we have the FDA to do the verification for us and prevent companies from lying to you to sell you something potentially dangerous.
Does the FDA screw up at times? Is its process slow and expensive? Could it be improved? Yes, to all of these questions. But I don't think we should throw it out entirely. We need some regulatory agency with teeth to protect us from charlatans. Not everybody out there is looking out for your well-being and they will lie to you, sometimes with deadly consequences, just to get your money.
You cant know everything, but the doctors that prescribe WILL know about what they are prescribing. Why have over the counter medicines if they can kill you? Hey, they have labels and most places have a Pharmacy to help make an educated choice.
The problem with the FDA screwing up, the FDA doesnt get the bad name, its the drug company that produced the drug and jumped thru all the hoops the FDA asked them to.
The FDA is a government company that makes things cost the consumer more then it should. Maybe at one time they served a purpose, but I dont see it in todays world.
@BS, bleeding is still done today to cure some things. Its not different then any cure, once they find it works for one ailment, they will try it on everything to see what it works on and what it doesnt. But you are also talking about a time pre-true doctors and true drugs. There is a difference between a snake oils salesman and someone in town who was thought to be a healer and trusted to heal people.
People cannot take informed responsibility for what a pill will and will not do to them.
I will disagree with this all day long. Know what, if you want to be informed, take some initiative and ask questions and do some reading. take some responsiblity for yourself. This nanny state so many defend is really getting sickening.
I will disagree with this all day long. Know what, if you want to be informed, take some initiative and ask questions and do some reading. take some responsiblity for yourself. This nanny state so many defend is really getting sickening.
I've come up with a fabulous new medicine that cures snoring. You take two tablespoons right before bed and I guarantee you will not snore that night nor any other night you take this medicine. What's in it? I can't tell you that because it's a trade secret but I assure you it will make your snoring days begone!
Now let's say you're so desperate for some cure for your snoring (your significant other has said if you don't stop snoring he or she will leave you) so you buy my miracle cure on the spot. Is it your fault if the cure actually contains cyanide?
You can only research a product if the information is available, and many people are so desperate for a cure that they will take whatever is offered to them.
I've come up with a fabulous new medicine that cures snoring. You take two tablespoons right before bed and I guarantee you will not snore that night nor any other night you take this medicine. What's in it? I can't tell you that because it's a trade secret but I assure you it will make your snoring days begone!
Now let's say you're so desperate for some cure for your snoring (your significant other has said if you don't stop snoring he or she will leave you) so you buy my miracle cure on the spot. Is it your fault if the cure actually contains cyanide?
You can only research a product if the information is available, and many people are so desperate for a cure that they will take whatever is offered to them.
There is one born every minute. Ignorance is not a defense. If someone is that ignorant to take such a medicine, they deserve what they get. Thats the harsh reality of life. Be smart or die. This is 2012, not 1550s. we have the internet. If they cant find information on the medicine, maybe it would be wise to stay away from it.
By the way, cyanide does have its uses in the medical world. Just the same as jellyfish poison and other things considered 'bad' by most.
There is one born every minute. Ignorance is not a defense. If someone is that ignorant to take such a medicine, they deserve what they get. Thats the harsh reality of life. Be smart or die. This is 2012, not 1550s. we have the internet. If they cant find information on the medicine, maybe it would be wise to stay away from it.
But that's the problem. If companies didn't have to disclose the contents of a product to the FDA what chance would there be for a consumer to have access to such information? You're claiming that without a government agency that requires companies to disclose the existence of potentially harmful materials in their products consumers would be able to discover that information on their own. That's just laughable. We might not even have the actual recipe for Coca-Cola and we have both the FDA and the internet.
And people make irrational decisions all the time when it comes to their own health or the health of a loved one. People fly to the Philippines and spend thousands of doctors on "psychic surgery" when all legitimate treatments have failed. Do the doctors who perform these psychic surgeries actually believe they work? Of course not. They use sleight of hand to prey upon a sick person's desire to not die. The people undergoing the "surgery" do it because they are so desperate that they will try anything, even if common sense would suggest that such miracle cures don't exist.
By the way, cyanide does have its uses in the medical world. Just the same as jellyfish poison and other things considered 'bad' by most.
The point wasn't that cyanide could have a use. Replace cyanide with "some dangerous substance that has absolutely zero good use when ingested by a human" and my point will remain: without a government agency that can enforce regulations a company will lie to you about a product if it will get you to buy it.
If someone is that ignorant to take such a medicine, they deserve what they get.
What?!
Someone deserves to die because they were a little too credulous? A death that could easily have been prevented by putting in place some basic social safeguards against fraud?
Do women who wear short skirts in bad neighborhoods deserve to get raped, too?
Since when has poor judgment been a moral transgression, worthy of the severest retribution?
Someone deserves to die because they were a little too credulous? A death that could easily have been prevented by putting in place some basic social safeguards against fraud?
Do women who wear short skirts in bad neighborhoods deserve to get raped, too?
Since when has poor judgment been a moral transgression, worthy of the severest retribution?
Again: What?!
You do know you cant protect everyone...
if you teach a kid not to stick a fork in a wall outlet, put the little stupid protector things in the outlet, and the kid still finds a way to electrocute himself, there is nothing more you can do to save stupid.
Same goes for medicines. There is no reason we need to protect people form themselves. If someone is so ignorant they cant read or wont follow a safety warning or look up a drug they know little to nothing about, they get what they deserve.
Again, ignorance isnt a defense.
One last thing, but its a whole other thread, why do you feel death is bad? Why do you fear death? Its something thats coming for us all. We have little control over how and when it happens no matter if you eat right and workout like a champ, or are a couch potato. You are going to die.
All animals have their culling process, humans should too. We did, but some felt we needed to protect EVERYONE from themselves.
But that's the problem. If companies didn't have to disclose the contents of a product to the FDA what chance would there be for a consumer to have access to such information? You're claiming that without a government agency that requires companies to disclose the existence of potentially harmful materials in their products consumers would be able to discover that information on their own. That's just laughable. We might not even have the actual recipe for Coca-Cola and we have both the FDA and the internet.
As soon as Coke came off the medicine list it didnt need to have an exact recipe published. If people cant find information about a drug and dont use it or buy it, that company wont be in business too long.
[qoute]And people make irrational decisions all the time when it comes to their own health or the health of a loved one. People fly to the Philippines and spend thousands of doctors on "psychic surgery" when all legitimate treatments have failed. Do the doctors who perform these psychic surgeries actually believe they work? Of course not. They use sleight of hand to prey upon a sick person's desire to not die. The people undergoing the "surgery" do it because they are so desperate that they will try anything, even if common sense would suggest that such miracle cures don't exist.[/QUOTE]
And to those it helps? Whether its a placebo or an actual cure? What those doctors know is that loved one is GOING TO DIE. Trying something is better to those families then just letting their family member slip away uncontested. And thats what those 'doctors' are doing.
Drugs should not be, nor ever should have been about money. Thats all the FDA makes drugs about now.
if you teach a kid not to stick a fork in a wall outlet, put the little stupid protector things in the outlet, and the kid still finds a way to electrocute himself, there is nothing more you can do to save stupid.
Same goes for medicines. There is no reason we need to protect people form themselves. If someone is so ignorant they cant read or wont follow a safety warning or look up a drug they know little to nothing about, they get what they deserve.
Again, ignorance isnt a defense.
Sounds like you're yearning for the good old days of The Jungle, and unregulated meat packing, unregulated medication, etc.
Which would be fine for the wealthy, who can afford to be choosy, but its a royal ****over for the poor.
One last thing, but its a whole other thread, why do you feel death is bad? Why do you fear death? Its something thats coming for us all. We have little control over how and when it happens no matter if you eat right and workout like a champ, or are a couch potato. You are going to die.
All animals have their culling process, humans should too. We did, but some felt we needed to protect EVERYONE from themselves.
You're making an argument for having no medicine at all.
If you believe that, why are you grousing that the FDA is making drugs "all about money"?
By that philosophy, might as well let the sick die WITHOUT medicine of any kind, whether it be alternative or mainstream.
And people make irrational decisions all the time when it comes to their own health or the health of a loved one. People fly to the Philippines and spend thousands of doctors on "psychic surgery" when all legitimate treatments have failed. Do the doctors who perform these psychic surgeries actually believe they work? Of course not. They use sleight of hand to prey upon a sick person's desire to not die. The people undergoing the "surgery" do it because they are so desperate that they will try anything, even if common sense would suggest that such miracle cures don't exist.
And to those it helps? It doesn't.
Yes, maybe some people will live sometimes, but not because they got "psychic surgery". Just because the doctors made a bad prediction.
never helped anyone. Whether its a placebo or an actual cure? What those doctors know is that loved one is GOING TO DIE. Trying something is better to those families then just letting their family member slip away uncontested. And thats what those 'doctors' are doing.
why do you feel death is bad? Why do you fear death? Its something thats coming for us all. We have little control over how and when it happens no matter if you eat right and workout like a champ, or are a couch potato. You are going to die.
All animals have their culling process, humans should too.
Drugs should not be, nor ever should have been about money. Thats all the FDA makes drugs about now.
It has to be about money on some level. Even the federal government spends money to make stuff happen.
Sounds like you're yearning for the good old days of The Jungle, and unregulated meat packing, unregulated medication, etc.
Which would be fine for the wealthy, who can afford to be choosy, but its a royal ****over for the poor.
You think if we had no FDA, medicines wouldnt be scrutinized in some way? From my knowledge, we are the only country that has a government agency regulating medicines and medical procedures.
You're making an argument for having no medicine at all.
If you believe that, why are you grousing that the FDA is making drugs "all about money"?
By that philosophy, might as well let the sick die WITHOUT medicine of any kind, whether it be alternative or mainstream.
I was trying to make the argument, we cant save everyone, we cant protect everyone. At some point the person has to take responsiblity for themselves. The way its set up now, people rarely have knowledge of what or why they are putting something in their bodies.
(I personally do believe we try and save too many that cant be saved medically. Death is part of life. We shouldnt be at war with death, just trying to make life a little more tolerable.)
It has to be about money on some level. Even the federal government spends money to make stuff happen.
When the same drugs are being sold in other countries years before here at a fraction of what America sells them for, there is a huge problem. The federal government should not have their fingers in the medical field.
Okay, well, homeopathy is bull****, so there's that. It's placebo water.
But alternative treatments, for some conditions, can work wonders in areas where traditional medicine has some issues, like pain management. I hate the term "alternative" treatments, because the idea that one kind of diagnosis-fueled medicine can replace another is scary - don't stop seeing your doctor because you're seeing an acupuncturist, and vice-versa.
Or just don't see an acupuncturist. You'd do just as well to pay a random stranger to pretend to stick you with fake needles in randomly selected areas.
Acupuncture is just as much a placebo as homeopathy, and the science shows it.
Or just don't see an acupuncturist. You'd do just as well to pay a random stranger to pretend to stick you with fake needles in randomly selected areas.
Acupuncture is just as much a placebo as homeopathy, and the science
shows it.
Well, the east has been using acupuncture longer then the west has been using medicines... There has to be something to it. I would much rather go to an acupuncturist then take a pill...and I hate needles.
40 years ago, chiropractics were thought of as quacks, today its thought to be quite helpful to have a straight spine.
You think the facts that a trained and successful acupuncturist (1) knows how to deal with the skepticism, fear of pain and doubts of his clients, (2) either believes in the efficacy of his practice or is very capable of faking it and (3) can tell a mystical story about how the needles do their special job, is not significant?
Not really. It doesn't take much to elicit a placebo response. Any stranger on the street could don a white lab coat and make people feel better.
Well, the east has been using acupuncture longer then the west has been using medicines... There has to be something to it. I would much rather go to an acupuncturist then take a pill...and I hate needles.
And the west was manipulating humors for a few thousand years. Turns out ancient people were pretty good at doing things even if they didn't work.
40 years ago, chiropractics were thought of as quacks, today its thought to be quite helpful to have a straight spine.
Seems to me that you're contradicting yourself. Why would humans before the advent of modern, science-based evidence adhere to all these special mystical treatments and strange but extensive medicinal systems if the placebo effect were this quickly achieved? Why develop all these ideas if all you had to do was take a leaf and authoritatively say that it will cure your problem?
Because they didn't know about the placebo effect? If you don't realize that a simple authoritative statement of nonsense would work, you're not gonna go around trying it. On the other hand, if you're actually trying to come up with a way to heal people, you're going to come up with something reasonably complex - not because it'll fool them, but because it'll fool you.
Seems to me that you're contradicting yourself. Why would humans before the advent of modern, science-based evidence adhere to all these special mystical treatments and strange but extensive medicinal systems if the placebo effect were this quickly achieved? Why develop all these ideas if all you had to do was take a leaf and authoritatively say that it will cure your problem?
Because the practitioners didn't know they were invoking the placebo effect, of course. EDIT: 'Nath'd.
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And the west was manipulating humors for a few thousand years. Turns out ancient people were pretty good at doing things even if they didn't work.
Chiropractics are still quacks.
Interesting, So if you go to your doctor with a back problem, get X-rays and an MRI and your doctor tells you to go see a chiropractor, you balk and find a new doctor?
Spine manipulation has been proven to have positive effects on the human boby, yet those who study it are quacks in your eyes.
If everyone had that closed mind attitude about a 'new' practice, we would still be in the dark ages of bleedings to cure things.
I kind of feel sorry for you. I hope you never have any spine problems.
Interesting, So if you go to your doctor with a back problem, get X-rays and an MRI and your doctor tells you to go see a chiropractor, you balk and find a new doctor?
I would expect to be sent to a massage therapist or other medical professional, not a kook in a lab coat.
Spine manipulation has been proven to have positive effects on the human boby, yet those who study it are quacks in your eyes.
Spine manipulation is not the same as chiropractic. There have indeed been studies that show limited effectiveness for lower back pain, but that manipulation or massage can be done by someone who's got an actual medical degree.
If everyone had that closed mind attitude about a 'new' practice, we would still be in the dark ages of bleedings to cure things.
I kind of feel sorry for you. I hope you never have any spine problems.
I think you misunderstand what chiropractic is. Chiropractic is based on the belief that all disease (not just lower back pain) is caused by "spinal subluxation" (not a real thing) which blocks the flow of your "innate intelligence" (also not a real thing, sort of like qi or life energy) and once you stop blocking it, it'll magically heal your disease.
Why would you come up with something reasonably complex in the first place? The first things that were to be tried were very simple cures. Red flower cures bloody wound, blue flower cures bruise. If anything more developed didn't improve the placebo effect very much, why would anyone have bothered?
Because it's a pre-scientific society we're talking about. They didn't have a way to tell how much it improved.
The placebo effect also works both ways if neither is aware of it: both practitioner and patient will be fooled.
I just can't see a simplistic placebo effect as you describe it in the light of the wild diversity of medicinal practice throughout history we now know to not really work biochemically. This also goes in the face of what we know about human adherence to mysticism, faith healing and the inherent attractiveness of alternative medicine rather than a doctor prescribing a pill with no effect (like I know some doctors do, actively use placebo's for patients who they consider to be better of with them).
The placebo effect works if you give someone a sugar pill and tell them it's gonna cure them. That's all it takes.
Especially for chronic back pain issues, its so monstrously affected by mood, that placebo affect is unbelievably large.
EVERY therapy works... for a while.
EVERY therapy. You tell them to put ice cubes on their fingers and give them a good "story", they will get better for a while.
But NOTHING works permanently.
The pain takes a life of its own. Its like their perception of pain becomes amplified... So that those little aches and kinks that you or I feel when we go around during the day, make them tense up and stop moving.
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Which is why sometimes functional pain programs do help a lot. Those are the programs where you tell people, we will treat your pain, but you are going to have to live with some pain, and not let pain stop you from moving. Normally pain is a signal to back off, but in your case that is no longer true because pain is dysfunctional.
Thus people are simply forced to work and move, and eventually learn its not the end of the world if their back tenses up a little... and eventually their pain gets quite a bit better.
Placebo effects, and the psychology of chronic pain management are huge:
I compare it to the "field trip phenomenon": Remember when you had a cold and a light fever you couldn't go to school and felt absolutely miserable, with a test coming that day? you weren't faking, you honestly felt too sick to get up. But, whoah, you got the date wrong! It's actually field trip to the zoo day! Hey, you feel SO MUCH BETTER! What were you thinking?
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On the issue of placebo, the problem with "chronic pain without reasonable explanatory pathology" vs "cancer", the difference is objective evidence.
If you say your spinal manipulation made your chronic pain better, its hard to argue with you. Even if you are squirrelly and 99% is in your head, the bottom line is you felt better. Then the only question becomes "Should insurance or somebody else pay for you to get placebo, at $100 a session, when it just comes back in a week?" I say "NO". But others might argue "yes".
When it comes to cancer, a spinal manipulation or psychic surgery is not going to get by on "placebo effect". We look and the cancer is still there, and you can't trick yourself into believing its gone.
I think you misunderstand what chiropractic is. Chiropractic is based on the belief that all disease (not just lower back pain) is caused by "spinal subluxation" (not a real thing) which blocks the flow of your "innate intelligence" (also not a real thing, sort of like qi or life energy) and once you stop blocking it, it'll magically heal your disease.
Thats not what the chiropractors I have seen think. They understand they are there for certain reasons, not a cure all. Maybe its you who doesnt understand what a chiropractor is.
Massage and manipulation are 2 different things. Massage therapy has its place for certain needs, manipulation has its place and needs also.
But my point was 40 years ago a doctor would never have sent you to a chiropractor for a spine problem. Today its pretty common to be sent to a chiropractor for certain spine problems. At one point chiropractors were thought to be 'alternative' medicine.
Thats not what the chiropractors I have seen think. They understand they are there for certain reasons, not a cure all. Maybe its you who doesnt understand what a chiropractor is.
Massage and manipulation are 2 different things. Massage therapy has its place for certain needs, manipulation has its place and needs also.
But my point was 40 years ago a doctor would never have sent you to a chiropractor for a spine problem. Today its pretty common to be sent to a chiropractor for certain spine problems. At one point chiropractors were thought to be 'alternative' medicine.
I don't know what to tell you. That's what chiropractic is. Look it up.
Thats not what the chiropractors I have seen think. They understand they are there for certain reasons, not a cure all. Maybe its you who doesnt understand what a chiropractor is.
Massage and manipulation are 2 different things. Massage therapy has its place for certain needs, manipulation has its place and needs also.
But my point was 40 years ago a doctor would never have sent you to a chiropractor for a spine problem. Today its pretty common to be sent to a chiropractor for certain spine problems. At one point chiropractors were thought to be 'alternative' medicine.
I can tell you what most chiropractors are:
People who failed to get into real medical school (or never had a prayer and therefore didn't apply), but in general, have better interpersonal skills and bedside manner than the average medical physician. Therefore they tend to be ideally suited to the shmoozing art of "managing nonphysiologic back pain".
As long as they don't overstep and make claims to greater powers of healing (which are not documented by any known science), then they are free to do what they do. I would never go to one, but you are free to.
The reason people are sent to chiropractors by the MD's is there is that NOTHING works for these patients long term anyway, and a good chiropractor will make them feel better temporarily by touching their back and listening to them, when nobody else they actually know can stand to listen to them talk about their pain anymore.
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But who can blame people, when science has nothing to offer? Even if it is 10% psychological, or 100% psychological, does it really matter? Ultimately they have dysphoria, and traditional medicine offers nothing.
(A) Ideally, everybody with chronic back pain would seek the treatments they seek, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME, staying as active as possible, and learning to function with pain. This would make them the most functional, and have the least amount of pain. Yes, you have pain, but NO, we'll not try to be a martyr about it under any circumstances, or use it as a manipulation tool or reason to feel sorry for yourself, since this only results in dysfunction. This is how people learn to live in countries without the kind of pathologic safety nets we have here, and they are actually better off for it.
(B) Unfortunately after all the MRIs are negative and there is no identified pathology... the societal model and medical model of pain, allows people to follow the path of least resistance to all sorts of pathologic pain lifestyles including: eventual narcotic addiction (yes, you're an addict if you can't go a week without taking them, let alone a day... and you will NEVER get off), inactivity to "protect" your injury (leading to obesity, atrophy, and even worse back function), chronic pain behavior and pathologic social interactions (we're socialized to seek sympathy when in pain, and socialized to give attention when we see pain, but chronic pain behavior leads people to eventually transparently seek attention whenever they have the slightest twinge or emotional need, and eventually nobody you know can freaking stand to be around you, because everytime something isn't going your way, you grimace and go "ahhh, my back"... and it all becomes a manipulative feedback loop where it requires more and more severe displays to get attention, but friends and family tune out more and more and eventually avoid being around you... eyeball rolls all around), and seeking alternative cures, and having very clear ideas in their own mind what their own problem/diagnosis is (even if it doesn't make sense).
It's an ugly model and its' repeated over and over again, I can't even count the number of cases that go down this pathway, and now chiropractors are part of it too. they're not cheap and unlike physicians, they see you with great frequency.
I would much rather go to a chiropractor then a doctor who feels everything can be cured with a pill or a shot.
We are not going to get anywhere here. have a good day.
You're certainly free to go see the local chiropractor or reflexoligist or scientologist or whatever phony cult you want to join in on, but let's at least be realistic about what we're talking about, and acknowledge that it's not an evidence-based procedure.
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In the old days, when a snake oil salesman came to town, he only lasted as long as people felt the product worked. Then he was run out of town. If GNC was selling things that didnt work on some level, they would not be in business. Hell in this day and age, the law suits alone would make them close their doors.
The FDA makes drugs about money and not about getting people better. As for the FDA protecting people, you can die from over the counter drugs just as easy as those they force testing on. I would much rather live in a world where the doctor has the option to try risky drugs in cases where those drugs are a last result or die. The way it is now, they either die or go to a country that allows the doctors to use the known drugs.
The government really needs to stop with trying to protecting people from themselves. People need to take responsiblity for their own actions.
This, unfortunately, is not true. Healers in Europe were bleeding patients for every ailment for thousands of years, prescribing bizarre concoctions of animal testicles and dung, and doing countless other things which medical science and even most alternative practitioners agree simply do not work. People always feel better when they feel like they're in control of what happens to them, which means they feel better when they go to a "doctor" and take what they believe to be a medical treatment. This is the placebo effect, and it's kept quacks in business - and in the same towns - forever.
Law suits that a supplement which is labeled as "not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease" does not diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease have a remarkably short life expectancy.
People cannot take informed responsibility for what a pill will and will not do to them.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
If they sold products that were actually dangerous or violated laws against making unverified claims. GNC isn't stupid. They're not going to sell something that could actually harm you.
Back before the FDA actually had any authority, shoe stores had X-Ray machines where parents would stick their kids feet inside to check if shoes fit. People were putting radium in their drinking water because companies were saying it would cure all sorts of ailments. Companies were actively promoting using and ingesting radioactive materials. Radioactive stuff was new and flashy and companies jumped on the bandwagon of promoting it as medicine.
People died from this irresponsible behavior. Were these people stupid? Not really. Radiation wasn't well understood and the companies and customers didn't really know the risks it posed. Even if the companies had noble intentions, such as curing arthritis, their actions still caused real harm to people who didn't have the knowledge to protect themselves.
The FDA prevents this sort of thing today. They are protecting you from yourself because you can't know everything. The responsibility for what you put in your body is your own, of course, but companies are still going to try to get you to put their product in your body. They may think they are noble and believe radiation really is a great force that improves your health, or they may just be using the radiation fad to make a quick buck. Regardless, companies will lie to you if they can. They will tell you radium infused water will prevent acid reflux if that is what you are looking for.
Unless you can independently verify everything a company tells you about a product you are going to ingest then you must take them at their word that the product will not harm you. Luckily we have the FDA to do the verification for us and prevent companies from lying to you to sell you something potentially dangerous.
Does the FDA screw up at times? Is its process slow and expensive? Could it be improved? Yes, to all of these questions. But I don't think we should throw it out entirely. We need some regulatory agency with teeth to protect us from charlatans. Not everybody out there is looking out for your well-being and they will lie to you, sometimes with deadly consequences, just to get your money.
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The first rule of Cursecatcher is, You do not talk about Cursecatcher.
The problem with the FDA screwing up, the FDA doesnt get the bad name, its the drug company that produced the drug and jumped thru all the hoops the FDA asked them to.
The FDA is a government company that makes things cost the consumer more then it should. Maybe at one time they served a purpose, but I dont see it in todays world.
@BS, bleeding is still done today to cure some things. Its not different then any cure, once they find it works for one ailment, they will try it on everything to see what it works on and what it doesnt. But you are also talking about a time pre-true doctors and true drugs. There is a difference between a snake oils salesman and someone in town who was thought to be a healer and trusted to heal people.
I will disagree with this all day long. Know what, if you want to be informed, take some initiative and ask questions and do some reading. take some responsiblity for yourself. This nanny state so many defend is really getting sickening.
I've come up with a fabulous new medicine that cures snoring. You take two tablespoons right before bed and I guarantee you will not snore that night nor any other night you take this medicine. What's in it? I can't tell you that because it's a trade secret but I assure you it will make your snoring days begone!
Now let's say you're so desperate for some cure for your snoring (your significant other has said if you don't stop snoring he or she will leave you) so you buy my miracle cure on the spot. Is it your fault if the cure actually contains cyanide?
You can only research a product if the information is available, and many people are so desperate for a cure that they will take whatever is offered to them.
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The first rule of Cursecatcher is, You do not talk about Cursecatcher.
There is one born every minute. Ignorance is not a defense. If someone is that ignorant to take such a medicine, they deserve what they get. Thats the harsh reality of life. Be smart or die. This is 2012, not 1550s. we have the internet. If they cant find information on the medicine, maybe it would be wise to stay away from it.
By the way, cyanide does have its uses in the medical world. Just the same as jellyfish poison and other things considered 'bad' by most.
But that's the problem. If companies didn't have to disclose the contents of a product to the FDA what chance would there be for a consumer to have access to such information? You're claiming that without a government agency that requires companies to disclose the existence of potentially harmful materials in their products consumers would be able to discover that information on their own. That's just laughable. We might not even have the actual recipe for Coca-Cola and we have both the FDA and the internet.
And people make irrational decisions all the time when it comes to their own health or the health of a loved one. People fly to the Philippines and spend thousands of doctors on "psychic surgery" when all legitimate treatments have failed. Do the doctors who perform these psychic surgeries actually believe they work? Of course not. They use sleight of hand to prey upon a sick person's desire to not die. The people undergoing the "surgery" do it because they are so desperate that they will try anything, even if common sense would suggest that such miracle cures don't exist.
The point wasn't that cyanide could have a use. Replace cyanide with "some dangerous substance that has absolutely zero good use when ingested by a human" and my point will remain: without a government agency that can enforce regulations a company will lie to you about a product if it will get you to buy it.
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The first rule of Cursecatcher is, You do not talk about Cursecatcher.
What?!
Someone deserves to die because they were a little too credulous? A death that could easily have been prevented by putting in place some basic social safeguards against fraud?
Do women who wear short skirts in bad neighborhoods deserve to get raped, too?
Since when has poor judgment been a moral transgression, worthy of the severest retribution?
Again: What?!
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
You do know you cant protect everyone...
if you teach a kid not to stick a fork in a wall outlet, put the little stupid protector things in the outlet, and the kid still finds a way to electrocute himself, there is nothing more you can do to save stupid.
Same goes for medicines. There is no reason we need to protect people form themselves. If someone is so ignorant they cant read or wont follow a safety warning or look up a drug they know little to nothing about, they get what they deserve.
Again, ignorance isnt a defense.
One last thing, but its a whole other thread, why do you feel death is bad? Why do you fear death? Its something thats coming for us all. We have little control over how and when it happens no matter if you eat right and workout like a champ, or are a couch potato. You are going to die.
All animals have their culling process, humans should too. We did, but some felt we needed to protect EVERYONE from themselves.
As soon as Coke came off the medicine list it didnt need to have an exact recipe published. If people cant find information about a drug and dont use it or buy it, that company wont be in business too long.
[qoute]And people make irrational decisions all the time when it comes to their own health or the health of a loved one. People fly to the Philippines and spend thousands of doctors on "psychic surgery" when all legitimate treatments have failed. Do the doctors who perform these psychic surgeries actually believe they work? Of course not. They use sleight of hand to prey upon a sick person's desire to not die. The people undergoing the "surgery" do it because they are so desperate that they will try anything, even if common sense would suggest that such miracle cures don't exist.[/QUOTE]
And to those it helps? Whether its a placebo or an actual cure? What those doctors know is that loved one is GOING TO DIE. Trying something is better to those families then just letting their family member slip away uncontested. And thats what those 'doctors' are doing.
Drugs should not be, nor ever should have been about money. Thats all the FDA makes drugs about now.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Which would be fine for the wealthy, who can afford to be choosy, but its a royal ****over for the poor.
You're making an argument for having no medicine at all.
If you believe that, why are you grousing that the FDA is making drugs "all about money"?
By that philosophy, might as well let the sick die WITHOUT medicine of any kind, whether it be alternative or mainstream.
And to those it helps? It doesn't.
Yes, maybe some people will live sometimes, but not because they got "psychic surgery". Just because the doctors made a bad prediction.
It has to be about money on some level. Even the federal government spends money to make stuff happen.
You think if we had no FDA, medicines wouldnt be scrutinized in some way? From my knowledge, we are the only country that has a government agency regulating medicines and medical procedures.
I was trying to make the argument, we cant save everyone, we cant protect everyone. At some point the person has to take responsiblity for themselves. The way its set up now, people rarely have knowledge of what or why they are putting something in their bodies.
(I personally do believe we try and save too many that cant be saved medically. Death is part of life. We shouldnt be at war with death, just trying to make life a little more tolerable.)
When the same drugs are being sold in other countries years before here at a fraction of what America sells them for, there is a huge problem. The federal government should not have their fingers in the medical field.
Or just don't see an acupuncturist. You'd do just as well to pay a random stranger to pretend to stick you with fake needles in randomly selected areas.
Acupuncture is just as much a placebo as homeopathy, and the science shows it.
Well, the east has been using acupuncture longer then the west has been using medicines... There has to be something to it. I would much rather go to an acupuncturist then take a pill...and I hate needles.
40 years ago, chiropractics were thought of as quacks, today its thought to be quite helpful to have a straight spine.
Not really. It doesn't take much to elicit a placebo response. Any stranger on the street could don a white lab coat and make people feel better.
And the west was manipulating humors for a few thousand years. Turns out ancient people were pretty good at doing things even if they didn't work.
Chiropractics are still quacks.
Because they didn't know about the placebo effect? If you don't realize that a simple authoritative statement of nonsense would work, you're not gonna go around trying it. On the other hand, if you're actually trying to come up with a way to heal people, you're going to come up with something reasonably complex - not because it'll fool them, but because it'll fool you.
Because the practitioners didn't know they were invoking the placebo effect, of course. EDIT: 'Nath'd.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Interesting, So if you go to your doctor with a back problem, get X-rays and an MRI and your doctor tells you to go see a chiropractor, you balk and find a new doctor?
Spine manipulation has been proven to have positive effects on the human boby, yet those who study it are quacks in your eyes.
If everyone had that closed mind attitude about a 'new' practice, we would still be in the dark ages of bleedings to cure things.
I kind of feel sorry for you. I hope you never have any spine problems.
I would expect to be sent to a massage therapist or other medical professional, not a kook in a lab coat.
Spine manipulation is not the same as chiropractic. There have indeed been studies that show limited effectiveness for lower back pain, but that manipulation or massage can be done by someone who's got an actual medical degree.
I think you misunderstand what chiropractic is. Chiropractic is based on the belief that all disease (not just lower back pain) is caused by "spinal subluxation" (not a real thing) which blocks the flow of your "innate intelligence" (also not a real thing, sort of like qi or life energy) and once you stop blocking it, it'll magically heal your disease.
That's clearly quackery.
Because it's a pre-scientific society we're talking about. They didn't have a way to tell how much it improved.
The placebo effect works if you give someone a sugar pill and tell them it's gonna cure them. That's all it takes.
EVERY therapy works... for a while.
EVERY therapy. You tell them to put ice cubes on their fingers and give them a good "story", they will get better for a while.
But NOTHING works permanently.
The pain takes a life of its own. Its like their perception of pain becomes amplified... So that those little aches and kinks that you or I feel when we go around during the day, make them tense up and stop moving.
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Which is why sometimes functional pain programs do help a lot. Those are the programs where you tell people, we will treat your pain, but you are going to have to live with some pain, and not let pain stop you from moving. Normally pain is a signal to back off, but in your case that is no longer true because pain is dysfunctional.
Thus people are simply forced to work and move, and eventually learn its not the end of the world if their back tenses up a little... and eventually their pain gets quite a bit better.
Placebo effects, and the psychology of chronic pain management are huge:
I compare it to the "field trip phenomenon": Remember when you had a cold and a light fever you couldn't go to school and felt absolutely miserable, with a test coming that day? you weren't faking, you honestly felt too sick to get up. But, whoah, you got the date wrong! It's actually field trip to the zoo day! Hey, you feel SO MUCH BETTER! What were you thinking?
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On the issue of placebo, the problem with "chronic pain without reasonable explanatory pathology" vs "cancer", the difference is objective evidence.
If you say your spinal manipulation made your chronic pain better, its hard to argue with you. Even if you are squirrelly and 99% is in your head, the bottom line is you felt better. Then the only question becomes "Should insurance or somebody else pay for you to get placebo, at $100 a session, when it just comes back in a week?" I say "NO". But others might argue "yes".
When it comes to cancer, a spinal manipulation or psychic surgery is not going to get by on "placebo effect". We look and the cancer is still there, and you can't trick yourself into believing its gone.
Thats not what the chiropractors I have seen think. They understand they are there for certain reasons, not a cure all. Maybe its you who doesnt understand what a chiropractor is.
Massage and manipulation are 2 different things. Massage therapy has its place for certain needs, manipulation has its place and needs also.
But my point was 40 years ago a doctor would never have sent you to a chiropractor for a spine problem. Today its pretty common to be sent to a chiropractor for certain spine problems. At one point chiropractors were thought to be 'alternative' medicine.
I don't know what to tell you. That's what chiropractic is. Look it up.
http://www.worldchiropracticalliance.org/consumer/basics.htm
http://www.yourspine.com/Chiropractic+Care/Noninvasive.aspx
http://www.wecreatewellness.com/services/chiropractic/education/innate-intelligence/
People who failed to get into real medical school (or never had a prayer and therefore didn't apply), but in general, have better interpersonal skills and bedside manner than the average medical physician. Therefore they tend to be ideally suited to the shmoozing art of "managing nonphysiologic back pain".
As long as they don't overstep and make claims to greater powers of healing (which are not documented by any known science), then they are free to do what they do. I would never go to one, but you are free to.
The reason people are sent to chiropractors by the MD's is there is that NOTHING works for these patients long term anyway, and a good chiropractor will make them feel better temporarily by touching their back and listening to them, when nobody else they actually know can stand to listen to them talk about their pain anymore.
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But who can blame people, when science has nothing to offer? Even if it is 10% psychological, or 100% psychological, does it really matter? Ultimately they have dysphoria, and traditional medicine offers nothing.
(A) Ideally, everybody with chronic back pain would seek the treatments they seek, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME, staying as active as possible, and learning to function with pain. This would make them the most functional, and have the least amount of pain. Yes, you have pain, but NO, we'll not try to be a martyr about it under any circumstances, or use it as a manipulation tool or reason to feel sorry for yourself, since this only results in dysfunction. This is how people learn to live in countries without the kind of pathologic safety nets we have here, and they are actually better off for it.
(B) Unfortunately after all the MRIs are negative and there is no identified pathology... the societal model and medical model of pain, allows people to follow the path of least resistance to all sorts of pathologic pain lifestyles including: eventual narcotic addiction (yes, you're an addict if you can't go a week without taking them, let alone a day... and you will NEVER get off), inactivity to "protect" your injury (leading to obesity, atrophy, and even worse back function), chronic pain behavior and pathologic social interactions (we're socialized to seek sympathy when in pain, and socialized to give attention when we see pain, but chronic pain behavior leads people to eventually transparently seek attention whenever they have the slightest twinge or emotional need, and eventually nobody you know can freaking stand to be around you, because everytime something isn't going your way, you grimace and go "ahhh, my back"... and it all becomes a manipulative feedback loop where it requires more and more severe displays to get attention, but friends and family tune out more and more and eventually avoid being around you... eyeball rolls all around), and seeking alternative cures, and having very clear ideas in their own mind what their own problem/diagnosis is (even if it doesn't make sense).
It's an ugly model and its' repeated over and over again, I can't even count the number of cases that go down this pathway, and now chiropractors are part of it too. they're not cheap and unlike physicians, they see you with great frequency.
I would much rather go to a chiropractor then a doctor who feels everything can be cured with a pill or a shot.
We are not going to get anywhere here. have a good day.
You're certainly free to go see the local chiropractor or reflexoligist or scientologist or whatever phony cult you want to join in on, but let's at least be realistic about what we're talking about, and acknowledge that it's not an evidence-based procedure.