The votings are closed now and we have to wait for official results, but this article (in spanish) says that a quick poll made to the voters shows a victory for opposition candidate, Henrique Capriles over Hugo Chavez. It is worthnoting that, according to the article, showing these quick polls results before the official results is illegal.
On the previous presidential elections, things started in a similar way. Percentages obtained from polls and interviews seemed to favor the opposing candidate, but it's no secret that election results have been manipulated before. There is not much to do but waiting for the results to be announced
I can't wait for western media to spin this as election fraud and other nonsense (more than they already have). I'm not sure what is so unfathomable to them that a socialist leader would win an election. Looks like Venezuela will continue on spreading the prosperity of its oil to the people.
EDIT: I'm hearing numbers like 80.94 percent of the voting population voting or something similar? That's impressive.
This awesome!
Hugo Chaves really works for his people, but the media tries to undermine him, painting him as a socialist dictator.
This "no polls until election can't be overturned" rule is so that media can't manipulate the data to their favor. International media has always been a major stakeholder in Venezuela's politics and oil supply - and it's nice to know he recognizes the media as the real threat.
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I don't think this result reflects reality, but I don't think anyone expected it to. Chavez might have won by one voter or one hundred million, but it doesn't matter; Chavez was going to be returned, and the complete control he has over every organ of state saw to that.
Quote from Tranquilo »
This "no polls until election can't be overturned" rule is so that media can't manipulate the data to their favor.
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or half asleep:
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than when you sang the songs of Satan.
I believe my own country has a similar law about election day polling. You can't publish the results of those polls before the voting stations are closed. I don't mind having that rule.
This awesome!
Hugo Chaves really works for his people, but the media tries to undermine him, painting him as a socialist dictator.
This "no polls until election can't be overturned" rule is so that media can't manipulate the data to their favor. International media has always been a major stakeholder in Venezuela's politics and oil supply - and it's nice to know he recognizes the media as the real threat.
The results are real, but Chavez has done some pretty troubling things. He's had the constitution he wrote in '99 revised so the term limits were removed for Presidents, his country economically has suffered some pretty serious setbacks, and he mobilized the machinery of the state against his opposition.
I don't doubt that Chavez believes wholeheartedly in what he's doing. He's led his country away from the direction of Lula and toward that of Castro, which is a very serious decision. For all the faults of Mikael Saakashvili, he conceded defeat and accepted a reduction in power. Chavez has only been consolidating his grip.
I agree the media is a pretty serious threat to Chavez, in the sense that he's beholden to the truth and it's not getting better. Luckily with the power he wields he can just crush, arrest, or expel anyone who disagrees with him, whether or not they have a point.
The high participation is good. Whether or not the result will be good for Venezuela...I profess skepticism.
Quick polls aren't reliable. They don't take a sample high enough to truly reflect anything. One political party might be better inclined to participate in certain polls (internet MSNBC polls/ FOX News polls will be biased without alteration)
That having been said, Hugo Chavez is a dictator. When he steps down, someone worse will be stepping up. It's just what happens. He's enabled his successor without knowing who that successor will be.
Many people in other countries don't realize many things about him. I have seen people say that he is a good leader and that he worries for the poor and incredible amounts of other claims. It is hard to know the actual situation of a country until you live in it or at least visit it for a while. The country is a real wreck right now. Did you know that he actually fired the public employees who voted against him in the previous presidential elections and made their lives impossible by denying them their right to a passport, among other actions taken against them? In the country, who you vote for is no secret (at least, not behind curtains). Did you know that in Venezuela a surgeon or a doctor with a title working in a public hospital can earn less than a chauffer? The public sector is a real wreck, the level of disorganization is catastrophic, and Caracas is considered one of the 10 most dangerous cities in the world, standing between 8th and 5fth place in several lists and rankings. My uncle, for example, was murdered around a year ago, and it is disgustingly normal to hear about kidnappings. You cannot walk around the city, and you cannot lay your guard down ANYTIME you go out.
Chavez expropriates land and private businesses every day from the people, with the only excuse that "the land belongs to the people" and whatnot other bull****. People have to be encouraged to go vote, because they live in a constant fear of what will happen. Will their homes be taken away? Will they be robbed and shot because of a cellphone and some money? I left the country around three years ago and every time I visit my family or travel there for a few days I only see things getting worse. Regarding Tranquilo's comment, the media doesn't PAINT him as a socialist dictator, he IS leading this "socialist movement of the people", 'The Bolivarian Revolution' as he calls it. As for the "dictator" part, his actions speak for themselves. The media isn't saying anything that isn't true. Another example: Presidential candidates are not allowed to advertise themselves (whatever you want to call it) around two months before voting takes place, yet he implements sanctions to the national television channels that do not air his propaganda about how the government has benefitted the country, only by manipulating the people. Now, HE may not be advertising his figure as a candidate, but he sure as hell modifies and bends the law to favor him in every way possible.
The level of education in the lower social sectors is very low. After all, who would want people who could think for themselves and realize that having him in power for the last 14 years has brought the country to ruins? Nope, instead, give them the expropriated lands of others and some money (200 dollars sound good?) and you've got their vote. He has extended the length of the presidential term to buy him more time in power, and has changed the laws to make it possible to reelect him as many times as possible. I could keep writing, but am weary of the subject.
There are little things that can get me as irritated as someone who doesn't know **** about the country speaking in favor of Hugo Chavez
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Many people in other countries don't realize many things about him. I have seen people say that he is a good leader and that he worries for the poor and incredible amounts of other claims. It is hard to know the actual situation of a country until you live in it or at least visit it for a while. The country is a real wreck right now. Did you know that he actually fired the public employees who voted against him in the previous presidential elections and made their lives impossible by denying them their right to a passport, among other actions taken against them? In the country, who you vote for is no secret (at least, not behind curtains). Did you know that in Venezuela a surgeon or a doctor with a title working in a public hospital can earn less than a chauffer? The public sector is a real wreck, the level of disorganization is catastrophic, and Caracas is considered one of the 10 most dangerous cities in the world, standing between 8th and 5fth place in several lists and rankings. My uncle, for example, was murdered around a year ago, and it is disgustingly normal to hear about kidnappings. You cannot walk around the city, and you cannot lay your guard down ANYTIME you go out.
Wow. Just... wow.
Chavez expropriates land and private businesses every day from the people, with the only excuse that "the land belongs to the people" and whatnot other b***s***.
I always find this amusing, in a very sad way, of course. A substantial percentage of the people voting for you does not make you the people. Especially when the same people are living in fear of you.
People have to be encouraged to go vote, because they live in a constant fear of what will happen.
A "people's movement" wherein the general populace lives in constant fear of their government? This sounds awfully similar to Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba, Mexico... all of 'em! It's all the same blasted thing.
Will their homes be taken away? Will they be robbed and shot because of a cellphone and some money? I left the country around three years ago and every time I visit my family or travel there for a few days I only see things getting worse. Regarding Tranquilo's comment, the media doesn't PAINT him as a socialist dictator, he IS leading this "socialist movement of the people", 'The Bolivarian Revolution' as he calls it. As for the "dictator" part, his actions speak for themselves.
Indeed. Even if there's some who would like to argue for his goals, his methods are pretty darn obvious.
The media isn't saying anything that isn't true. Another example: Presidential candidates are not allowed to advertise themselves (whatever you want to call it) around two months before voting takes place, yet he implements sanctions to the national television channels that do not air his propaganda about how the government has benefitted the country, only by manipulating the people. Now, HE may not be advertising his figure as a candidate, but he sure as hell modifies and bends the law to favor him in every way possible.
Clever. So all of my life I'm being indoctrinated into the Chavez cult by my schoolteachers, all year 'round I'm subject to the propaganda the Chavez cult produces, and then opposition candidates are given 2 months to change my mind? Heh.
The level of education in the lower social sectors is very low. After all, who would want people who could think for themselves and realize that having him in power for the last 14 years has brought the country to ruins? Nope, instead, give them the expropriated lands of others and some money (200 dollars sound good?) and you've got their vote. He has extended the length of the presidential term to buy him more time in power, and has changed the laws to make it possible to reelect him as many times as possible. I could keep writing, but am weary of the subject.
There are little things that can get me as irritated as someone who doesn't know s*** about the country speaking in favor of Hugo Chavez
I'm sorry to hear that. It takes such a willful ignorance to look past these things - the bribery, the cronyism, the bullying and strong-arm tactics, the propaganda.
So you're a rich expat angry about oil and other important things being nationalised? And of course a socialist government would cut back on privately owned businesses and land. Like, that is the point.
You clearly have no knowledge of the subject and judge me based on little. I am not rich. Would it be ok then if your government took your property without justification? This is not a fight between the greedy evil rich and the honest, hardworking poor. This is a problem involving corruption, abuse of power, and mediatic manipulation. He is not "cutting back" on private businesses, he is blatantly stealing from people, taking land not for social purposes or to benefit the people, but to threaten people who oppose his actions, who want a change in rule from someone who has held himself in power for 14 years. Then again, this doesn't happen much in Sweden, does it
Also, I am impressed by the amount of people who think favorably about him in other countries. I would usually expect people to react differently from what is shown in the media about him:
I can't wait for western media to spin this as election fraud and other nonsense (more than they already have). I'm not sure what is so unfathomable to them that a socialist leader would win an election. Looks like Venezuela will continue on spreading the prosperity of its oil to the people.
Addressing Talore, Chavez has carried out fraud before. While I have not heard of anything pointing out or indicating that these presidential elections were fraudulent, it would come to little or no surprise to hear rumors or any indications that they were.
"Venezuela continuing to spread the prosperity of its oil to the people" is a strong one. Prosperity isn't quite the word. More oil deposits have been found in the country, and while the price of, say, gasoline is ridiculously low compared to the US, the actual government is giving away incredible amounts to other countries for free, seeking to establish political connections and relationships to hold international support for Chavez's rule. I have nothing against helping other countries, but with the current situation INSIDE the country, I would not be exactly worrying about others at the moment. Chavez gives people merely enough to justify his "movement for the people", but he is not helping the country, he is just using resources to hold himself in power.
As to the election, I think it is naive to expect him to step down from power quietly. He will not pass on the presidency to anyone, at least, not anyone who isn't allied with him to carry on with his work. I am beginning to believe the only time we could expect him to step down is his death, by any reason, most probably related to the cancer he was diagnosed with not too long ago
I don't have any property. I don't own land or anything. Property being private is in itself justification for nationalising it, anyway. Seizing the property of the capitalist forces that tried to topple the democratically elected government through a military coup not so long ago is perfectly fine with me.
Far from all people actually have the money to just move to another country. This, in addition to your uncritical support of the corporate media, makes me take what you say with a grain of salt. Basically, would you simply accept anything that a Tea Party supporter who moved abroad said about Obama or how liberal Romney is? Some fact checking is in order, I think. Not to say that for example corruption and the level of violence aren't real problems. The latter is more due to the drug wars than the government but it still needs solving.
You are not quite understanding my statements. First of all, I do not hold much knowledge about the political situation in the US currently, so you will have to use a more practical example. Second, I do not have problems tolerating other peoples' opinions or political ideals, but if you are claiming that the Venezuelan government has a right to expropriate lands based on certain principles, it does not justify it. Could you imagine hell breaking loose if something similar happened in the United States?
I would like to remind you that I was born there, and I am very much aware of most of the things that happen. Why I point this out is because of your statement towards drugs. The government has been found to have connections with the drugs market, and even to be working with the FARC (Entering the subject of Colombian guerrillas). Files retrieved from the FARC guerrillas have brought ties between the government and their operations to public attention. He has been working with them also to intervene illegally with the election in Ecuador. The "Drug War", don't make me laugh.
Socialism, like capitalism, is an idealogical system. Venezuela voted to have this kind of country in a democratic fashion.
Venezuela has very little left of a democracy now, and any claims that governamental changes and reforms have been carried out in a democratic fashion is nothing but hypocritical. While not all of all procedures may have been altered to benefit the government, I can assure that the government is nothing but a nest of culprits and corrupted "leaders" who seek nothing but their political and economical benefit. While that may sound like a bold claim from someone in the internet, I can assure you that living in a country is a key element in understanding its situation, which is one of the reasons why I take on differently with international debaters
Tuss, I am not going to fight you. You clearly have no idea how everything works here, and you justify their actions based on political systems that are not related with Venezuela's government. You are telling me that a new person in power can do nothing to change the way the government is operating? Your arguments are cute, but you clearly can't tell an organized form of government from a man who has for over a decade run a country like it was his own little private business. You hold no real knowledge of the country and while I have answered your questions, you just seem to support Chavez regardless of the situation. You told me the government should worry about the war with drugs, and when I tell you they have been proved to have undercover operation with drug cartel and the FARC, you just tell me: "Oh, well, it's not like a new government would change anything"
just because someone is a socialist doesn't necessarily mean there country is a bad guy, like american televsion jumps on and would have you believe.
but possibly of voting fraud catapults you to the top of the bad guys list hands down.
and thats all i know about this guy is socialist and possible master mind of voter fraud.
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Sing lustily and with good courage.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
just because someone is a socialist doesn't necessarily mean there country is a bad guy, like american televsion jumps on and would have you believe.
but possibly of voting fraud catapults you to the top of the bad guys list hands down.
and thats all i know about this guy is socialist and possible master mind of voter fraud.
Chavez isn't armed with voter fraud. At least it's unlikely. He's still quite popular.
He has taken advantage of the machinery of state to help his election. Venezuala has ~2.7 million public employees, the same amount as the US. The opposition is limited to something like 1 hour of political advertising per day, compared to no limits for Chavez. He's been doling out subsidies and housing like a fiend to push the election in his favor.
Chavez has been treating his opponents with a pretty heavy hand. The election may be free, but it's not fair. If Venezuala wants to be socialist, I don't care. But there are different models of socialism, and Chavez is looking more towards a heavy handed Cuban style than the Brazilian or European models.
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http://www.elheraldo.hn/Secciones-Principales/Mundo/Venezuela-primer-sondeo-a-pie-de-urna-da-el-triunfo-a-Henrique-Capriles
The votings are closed now and we have to wait for official results, but this article (in spanish) says that a quick poll made to the voters shows a victory for opposition candidate, Henrique Capriles over Hugo Chavez. It is worthnoting that, according to the article, showing these quick polls results before the official results is illegal.
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http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Chavez-wins-re-election-electoral-council-says-3925843.php
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EDIT: I'm hearing numbers like 80.94 percent of the voting population voting or something similar? That's impressive.
I don't trust Radonski and I can't come to trust him. That is all. Interesting how he's young and all.
Hugo Chaves really works for his people, but the media tries to undermine him, painting him as a socialist dictator.
This "no polls until election can't be overturned" rule is so that media can't manipulate the data to their favor. International media has always been a major stakeholder in Venezuela's politics and oil supply - and it's nice to know he recognizes the media as the real threat.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
[Clan Flamingo]
The clan for custom card creators!
The results are real, but Chavez has done some pretty troubling things. He's had the constitution he wrote in '99 revised so the term limits were removed for Presidents, his country economically has suffered some pretty serious setbacks, and he mobilized the machinery of the state against his opposition.
I don't doubt that Chavez believes wholeheartedly in what he's doing. He's led his country away from the direction of Lula and toward that of Castro, which is a very serious decision. For all the faults of Mikael Saakashvili, he conceded defeat and accepted a reduction in power. Chavez has only been consolidating his grip.
I agree the media is a pretty serious threat to Chavez, in the sense that he's beholden to the truth and it's not getting better. Luckily with the power he wields he can just crush, arrest, or expel anyone who disagrees with him, whether or not they have a point.
The high participation is good. Whether or not the result will be good for Venezuela...I profess skepticism.
That having been said, Hugo Chavez is a dictator. When he steps down, someone worse will be stepping up. It's just what happens. He's enabled his successor without knowing who that successor will be.
Chavez expropriates land and private businesses every day from the people, with the only excuse that "the land belongs to the people" and whatnot other bull****. People have to be encouraged to go vote, because they live in a constant fear of what will happen. Will their homes be taken away? Will they be robbed and shot because of a cellphone and some money? I left the country around three years ago and every time I visit my family or travel there for a few days I only see things getting worse. Regarding Tranquilo's comment, the media doesn't PAINT him as a socialist dictator, he IS leading this "socialist movement of the people", 'The Bolivarian Revolution' as he calls it. As for the "dictator" part, his actions speak for themselves. The media isn't saying anything that isn't true. Another example: Presidential candidates are not allowed to advertise themselves (whatever you want to call it) around two months before voting takes place, yet he implements sanctions to the national television channels that do not air his propaganda about how the government has benefitted the country, only by manipulating the people. Now, HE may not be advertising his figure as a candidate, but he sure as hell modifies and bends the law to favor him in every way possible.
The level of education in the lower social sectors is very low. After all, who would want people who could think for themselves and realize that having him in power for the last 14 years has brought the country to ruins? Nope, instead, give them the expropriated lands of others and some money (200 dollars sound good?) and you've got their vote. He has extended the length of the presidential term to buy him more time in power, and has changed the laws to make it possible to reelect him as many times as possible. I could keep writing, but am weary of the subject.
There are little things that can get me as irritated as someone who doesn't know **** about the country speaking in favor of Hugo Chavez
Evading the censor is against forum rules. Relevant words censored and warning issued.
Furthermore, editing moderator text out of a post and altering the offending portions of that post are also against the rules. Additional warning issued for editing a moderated post.
- Teia
Wow. Just... wow.
I always find this amusing, in a very sad way, of course. A substantial percentage of the people voting for you does not make you the people. Especially when the same people are living in fear of you.
A "people's movement" wherein the general populace lives in constant fear of their government? This sounds awfully similar to Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba, Mexico... all of 'em! It's all the same blasted thing.
Indeed. Even if there's some who would like to argue for his goals, his methods are pretty darn obvious.
Clever. So all of my life I'm being indoctrinated into the Chavez cult by my schoolteachers, all year 'round I'm subject to the propaganda the Chavez cult produces, and then opposition candidates are given 2 months to change my mind? Heh.
I'm sorry to hear that. It takes such a willful ignorance to look past these things - the bribery, the cronyism, the bullying and strong-arm tactics, the propaganda.
You clearly have no knowledge of the subject and judge me based on little. I am not rich. Would it be ok then if your government took your property without justification? This is not a fight between the greedy evil rich and the honest, hardworking poor. This is a problem involving corruption, abuse of power, and mediatic manipulation. He is not "cutting back" on private businesses, he is blatantly stealing from people, taking land not for social purposes or to benefit the people, but to threaten people who oppose his actions, who want a change in rule from someone who has held himself in power for 14 years. Then again, this doesn't happen much in Sweden, does it
How civilized. In the same way that, to the thief, someone simply having a wallet is justification for stealing it.
Addressing Talore, Chavez has carried out fraud before. While I have not heard of anything pointing out or indicating that these presidential elections were fraudulent, it would come to little or no surprise to hear rumors or any indications that they were.
"Venezuela continuing to spread the prosperity of its oil to the people" is a strong one. Prosperity isn't quite the word. More oil deposits have been found in the country, and while the price of, say, gasoline is ridiculously low compared to the US, the actual government is giving away incredible amounts to other countries for free, seeking to establish political connections and relationships to hold international support for Chavez's rule. I have nothing against helping other countries, but with the current situation INSIDE the country, I would not be exactly worrying about others at the moment. Chavez gives people merely enough to justify his "movement for the people", but he is not helping the country, he is just using resources to hold himself in power.
As to the election, I think it is naive to expect him to step down from power quietly. He will not pass on the presidency to anyone, at least, not anyone who isn't allied with him to carry on with his work. I am beginning to believe the only time we could expect him to step down is his death, by any reason, most probably related to the cancer he was diagnosed with not too long ago
Socialism, like capitalism, is an idealogical system. Venezuela voted to have this kind of country in a democratic fashion.
You are not quite understanding my statements. First of all, I do not hold much knowledge about the political situation in the US currently, so you will have to use a more practical example. Second, I do not have problems tolerating other peoples' opinions or political ideals, but if you are claiming that the Venezuelan government has a right to expropriate lands based on certain principles, it does not justify it. Could you imagine hell breaking loose if something similar happened in the United States?
I would like to remind you that I was born there, and I am very much aware of most of the things that happen. Why I point this out is because of your statement towards drugs. The government has been found to have connections with the drugs market, and even to be working with the FARC (Entering the subject of Colombian guerrillas). Files retrieved from the FARC guerrillas have brought ties between the government and their operations to public attention. He has been working with them also to intervene illegally with the election in Ecuador. The "Drug War", don't make me laugh.
Well, violence is violence is violence. Doesn't matter what label you want to put on it.
But ignoring all of that, the fact that they (as in, "most") of them voted to have "this kind of country" is very much in question!
Venezuela has very little left of a democracy now, and any claims that governamental changes and reforms have been carried out in a democratic fashion is nothing but hypocritical. While not all of all procedures may have been altered to benefit the government, I can assure that the government is nothing but a nest of culprits and corrupted "leaders" who seek nothing but their political and economical benefit. While that may sound like a bold claim from someone in the internet, I can assure you that living in a country is a key element in understanding its situation, which is one of the reasons why I take on differently with international debaters
just because someone is a socialist doesn't necessarily mean there country is a bad guy, like american televsion jumps on and would have you believe.
but possibly of voting fraud catapults you to the top of the bad guys list hands down.
and thats all i know about this guy is socialist and possible master mind of voter fraud.
Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
---------------------------------------------------
Vintage will rise again! Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
Chavez isn't armed with voter fraud. At least it's unlikely. He's still quite popular.
He has taken advantage of the machinery of state to help his election. Venezuala has ~2.7 million public employees, the same amount as the US. The opposition is limited to something like 1 hour of political advertising per day, compared to no limits for Chavez. He's been doling out subsidies and housing like a fiend to push the election in his favor.
Chavez has been treating his opponents with a pretty heavy hand. The election may be free, but it's not fair. If Venezuala wants to be socialist, I don't care. But there are different models of socialism, and Chavez is looking more towards a heavy handed Cuban style than the Brazilian or European models.