I'm entertained by the Chinese Zodiac, but I don't believe in horoscopes.
All of these things, horoscopes, fortune telling, etc., are all based around fear. One is afraid of the future, because it is outside of one's knowledge or control, and that's scary. At times it can be downright terrifying. But the thing is, rather than face the unknown honestly, there is a great temptation in the human mind to lie to oneself. To pretend like one can anticipate the unknowable, unforeseeable future, because such a thing would offer a feeling of control.
It's all a self-delusion, but people follow it anyway because one is scared to face the truth, which is the fact that there are things that can happen in our lives which are beyond our control, and that we are all at the mercy of the vicissitudes of fate.
Highroller put it well. I find horoscopes entertaining at times, to the degree that I know my zodiac year and horoscope sign, but I'm not about to put any stock in them.
I'll answer this broadly at first, then the specifics. I believe divination works. I've been to people who are actually good at it, and just this weekend had experiences that very much cleared up any doubt I had.
That all being said I think there are a lot of people who say they're authentic and they're not. I also believe that even when daily horoscopes are done right they're usually missing key info which makes them incredibly incomplete. It's like trying to solve a 500 piece puzzle and you have five pieces to figure out what the picture is. You're going to miss so often that it's basically pointless. Most forms of divination in general are a lot more complex such that a daily horoscope being mass produced is useless.
I'll answer this broadly at first, then the specifics. I believe divination works. I've been to people who are actually good at it, and just this weekend had experiences that very much cleared up any doubt I had.
That all being said I think there are a lot of people who say they're authentic and they're not. I also believe that even when daily horoscopes are done right they're usually missing key info which makes them incredibly incomplete. It's like trying to solve a 500 piece puzzle and you have five pieces to figure out what the picture is. You're going to miss so often that it's basically pointless. Most forms of divination in general are a lot more complex such that a daily horoscope being mass produced is useless.
Divination does not work, it's more of a ruse to dupe people. I know that having been to quite a few in the past when I was younger and foolish. They all tell you the same thing and none of it comes true. It's simply bunk.
The horoscopes are fun to read though, but it's funnier how much stock people tend to put into them.
I'll answer this broadly at first, then the specifics. I believe divination works. I've been to people who are actually good at it, and just this weekend had experiences that very much cleared up any doubt I had.
That all being said I think there are a lot of people who say they're authentic and they're not. I also believe that even when daily horoscopes are done right they're usually missing key info which makes them incredibly incomplete. It's like trying to solve a 500 piece puzzle and you have five pieces to figure out what the picture is. You're going to miss so often that it's basically pointless. Most forms of divination in general are a lot more complex such that a daily horoscope being mass produced is useless.
Divination does not work, it's more of a ruse to dupe people. I know that having been to quite a few in the past when I was younger and foolish. They all tell you the same thing and none of it comes true. It's simply bunk.
The horoscopes are fun to read though, but it's funnier how much stock people tend to put into them.
I'll just repeat what I said then about there being a lot of people who are trying to scam people. But I'm not terribly concerned with trying to convince you otherwise. Trying to do that on this site in general would be a lot of effort for little to no purpose.
That all being said I think there are a lot of people who say they're authentic and they're not. I also believe that even when daily horoscopes are done right they're usually missing key info which makes them incredibly incomplete. It's like trying to solve a 500 piece puzzle and you have five pieces to figure out what the picture is. You're going to miss so often that it's basically pointless. Most forms of divination in general are a lot more complex such that a daily horoscope being mass produced is useless.
Wait, you're saying horoscopes work, but this paragraph seems to be you saying they don't work.
St. Augustine was a student of astrology, and he pointed out a proof about why astrology is bogus that I've yet to hear anyone gainsay in any kind of satisfactory manner. It was the case of two twins, born within moments of each other, during the same hour, under the same stars. Both twins had radically different fates.
I'm sure this happens quite frequently. Yet, astrology persists.
I'm saying that the daily horoscopes in general are just bad, using just a sub sign is a woefully incomplete chart of any sort. It's like... taking the color pie and only having Green (random example) and saying that's everything in Magic. Not sure if that's a great example though, but can't think of a better one this late.
As far as the validity of astrology itself, the issue there is assuming the stars control fate. Influence isn't the same as dictating things, free will and all that jazz. But, again, don't think there is much to be gained by going into it too much.
I'm saying that the daily horoscopes in general are just bad, using just a sub sign is a woefully incomplete chart of any sort. It's like... taking the color pie and only having Green (random example) and saying that's everything in Magic. Not sure if that's a great example though, but can't think of a better one this late.
As far as the validity of astrology itself, the issue there is assuming the stars control fate. Influence isn't the same as dictating things, free will and all that jazz. But, again, don't think there is much to be gained by going into it too much.
Free will and diviniation are radically incompatible. If I can simply choose *not* to be in the car accident, I'm not fated to be in it, am I?
And astrology is patently false. In any given second, several children are born. (it was about 4 in 2014; it will be less but not radically for the last few decades).
Do you actually believe those 4 children have the same fates?
Let's take me as an example; I'm a white male born into a middle class family, highly educated, in a solid profession. I'm single, I more-or-less own my home, etc etc.
Odds are very high that 2 or 3 of the other 4 of me were born into poverty of the must adject nature, and odds that at least one of them is dead are not low. Odds are extremely high that 1 or more of the other 3 are female, which is going to involve a pretty spectacularly different life. I'm about 99% likely to be the smartest of the four of us, and of the order of 95% likely to have the highest income.
The idea that any of this is caused by an alignment of stars is so demonstrably unlikely as to be laughable.
I'm saying that the daily horoscopes in general are just bad, using just a sub sign is a woefully incomplete chart of any sort. It's like... taking the color pie and only having Green (random example) and saying that's everything in Magic. Not sure if that's a great example though, but can't think of a better one this late.
What other information is lacking that would be needed to make an accurate prediction?
As far as the validity of astrology itself, the issue there is assuming the stars control fate. Influence isn't the same as dictating things, free will and all that jazz. But, again, don't think there is much to be gained by going into it too much.
Why not? You're saying that there's a reliable method of prognostication - that would be unbelievably valuable if it were to exist. We have everything to gain by going into it.
Free will and diviniation are radically incompatible. If I can simply choose *not* to be in the car accident, I'm not fated to be in it, am I?
I don't think free will and divination are necessarily incompatible. Now, in your scenario, IF the divination said you'd be in a car accident, AND there were nothing you could do to change that - for instance, if you knew the exact date and time, but could not choose to just not get into your car and not drive - then yes, it would mean you didn't have free will. That doesn't mean there's no free will if there's divination.
Have been entertained by Horoscopes since I was in high school. Used to buy newspapers just for the sake of reading them. So I probably believed in them, even if just a little.
I'm saying that the daily horoscopes in general are just bad, using just a sub sign is a woefully incomplete chart of any sort. It's like... taking the color pie and only having Green (random example) and saying that's everything in Magic. Not sure if that's a great example though, but can't think of a better one this late.
What other information is lacking that would be needed to make an accurate prediction?
As far as the validity of astrology itself, the issue there is assuming the stars control fate. Influence isn't the same as dictating things, free will and all that jazz. But, again, don't think there is much to be gained by going into it too much.
Why not? You're saying that there's a reliable method of prognostication - that would be unbelievably valuable if it were to exist. We have everything to gain by going into it.
Free will and diviniation are radically incompatible. If I can simply choose *not* to be in the car accident, I'm not fated to be in it, am I?
I don't think free will and divination are necessarily incompatible. Now, in your scenario, IF the divination said you'd be in a car accident, AND there were nothing you could do to change that - for instance, if you knew the exact date and time, but could not choose to just not get into your car and not drive - then yes, it would mean you didn't have free will. That doesn't mean there's no free will if there's divination.
Yeah, free will and divination aren't at odds, the issue is that people look at it as some sort of catch all that answers everything.
I also didn't say that astrology was something that held the answer to life, the universe, and everything in it. Sadly it won't be able to help us reach 42. As for what is missing from astrological charts, at least as a general rule the Sun sign is only a small part of it. It's kind of like trying to paint a painting using only one shade of red. You can only make so much in the way of paintings with that. But I'd rather read debates on the meaning of free will, more interesting.
Yeah, free will and divination aren't at odds, the issue is that people look at it as some sort of catch all that answers everything.
I also didn't say that astrology was something that held the answer to life, the universe, and everything in it. Sadly it won't be able to help us reach 42. As for what is missing from astrological charts, at least as a general rule the Sun sign is only a small part of it. It's kind of like trying to paint a painting using only one shade of red. You can only make so much in the way of paintings with that. But I'd rather read debates on the meaning of free will, more interesting.
Well, there's a difference between asking something to answer everything and asking it to answer anything.
And that's what you're being vague on. You say astrology works, and yet your past few posts have not been talking about how it works, but rather talking about what it cannot tell us and how it can't be relied upon.
What I'd recommend because this isn't really my area of expertise is finding someone who can answer those kind of questions a bit better. I don't know astrology well enough to answer them very well, I just do know enough about it to know that daily horoscopes based on just your sun sign are going to be really bad. As far as divination in general it can answer a lot, but it's usually one of those things that varies strongly from person to person, it's just not really useful for something like winning the lottery. More along the lines of helping decide between choices or the like.
I'm saying that the daily horoscopes in general are just bad, using just a sub sign is a woefully incomplete chart of any sort. It's like... taking the color pie and only having Green (random example) and saying that's everything in Magic. Not sure if that's a great example though, but can't think of a better one this late.
What other information is lacking that would be needed to make an accurate prediction?
As far as the validity of astrology itself, the issue there is assuming the stars control fate. Influence isn't the same as dictating things, free will and all that jazz. But, again, don't think there is much to be gained by going into it too much.
Why not? You're saying that there's a reliable method of prognostication - that would be unbelievably valuable if it were to exist. We have everything to gain by going into it.
Free will and diviniation are radically incompatible. If I can simply choose *not* to be in the car accident, I'm not fated to be in it, am I?
I don't think free will and divination are necessarily incompatible. Now, in your scenario, IF the divination said you'd be in a car accident, AND there were nothing you could do to change that - for instance, if you knew the exact date and time, but could not choose to just not get into your car and not drive - then yes, it would mean you didn't have free will. That doesn't mean there's no free will if there's divination.
Your fate is determined or it isn't.
If your fate is determined, it is strictly impossible for you to have free will, because otherwise what the gibbering hell do you think free will means? (You can have the *sensation* of having free will, but you don't have it).
If your fate *isn't* determined, then what on earth are you doing with divination? Any predicition you make more personal than the weather on thursday is probably pretty crazy in a world in which my fate is not fixed.
I'll answer this broadly at first, then the specifics. I believe divination works. I've been to people who are actually good at it, and just this weekend had experiences that very much cleared up any doubt I had.
That all being said I think there are a lot of people who say they're authentic and they're not. I also believe that even when daily horoscopes are done right they're usually missing key info which makes them incredibly incomplete. It's like trying to solve a 500 piece puzzle and you have five pieces to figure out what the picture is. You're going to miss so often that it's basically pointless. Most forms of divination in general are a lot more complex such that a daily horoscope being mass produced is useless.
Divination does not work, it's more of a ruse to dupe people. I know that having been to quite a few in the past when I was younger and foolish. They all tell you the same thing and none of it comes true. It's simply bunk.
The horoscopes are fun to read though, but it's funnier how much stock people tend to put into them.
I'll just repeat what I said then about there being a lot of people who are trying to scam people. But I'm not terribly concerned with trying to convince you otherwise. Trying to do that on this site in general would be a lot of effort for little to no purpose.
I can tell you flat out that divination does not work. They all just give general predictions that you either deliberately look for evidence of or perhaps subconsciously act out to confirm them. There is ZERO proof that they work or should even be taken seriously. It's just something fun to look at/talk about.
I'll answer this broadly at first, then the specifics. I believe divination works. I've been to people who are actually good at it, and just this weekend had experiences that very much cleared up any doubt I had.
That all being said I think there are a lot of people who say they're authentic and they're not. I also believe that even when daily horoscopes are done right they're usually missing key info which makes them incredibly incomplete. It's like trying to solve a 500 piece puzzle and you have five pieces to figure out what the picture is. You're going to miss so often that it's basically pointless. Most forms of divination in general are a lot more complex such that a daily horoscope being mass produced is useless.
Divination does not work, it's more of a ruse to dupe people. I know that having been to quite a few in the past when I was younger and foolish. They all tell you the same thing and none of it comes true. It's simply bunk.
The horoscopes are fun to read though, but it's funnier how much stock people tend to put into them.
I'll just repeat what I said then about there being a lot of people who are trying to scam people. But I'm not terribly concerned with trying to convince you otherwise. Trying to do that on this site in general would be a lot of effort for little to no purpose.
I can tell you flat out that divination does not work. They all just give general predictions that you either deliberately look for evidence of or perhaps subconsciously act out to confirm them. There is ZERO proof that they work or should even be taken seriously. It's just something fun to look at/talk about.
*shrugs* I'm not super convinced with trying to tell you otherwise. I already said that. It's one of those things that would be a lot of work for no real payoff. If that's what you want to believe it doesn't really bother me. I can safely say that they weren't super general and was multiple different people telling me those same specific things, but I don't expect you to believe me, or perhaps you'll go the really crazy route and claim conspiracy.
I can safely say that they weren't super general and was multiple different people telling me those same specific things, but I don't expect you to believe me, or perhaps you'll go the really crazy route and claim conspiracy.
If you could stop being vague and dodging the questions asked of you, maybe somebody would believe you. Or maybe someone would be able to point out where your biases have allowed you to dupe yourself.
The thing is, whenever someone tries to do a controlled study on the subject of something like divination, it does no better than random chance, and often does worse. I've seen multiple professionals who believed in what they were selling give different predictions to the same individual. Not just different on the scale of "maybe some of them were better than others", but wildly different predictions.
The most successful predictions -- by which I mean predictions believed by the most people -- are as vague as you have been so far in this thread. If you want to lend any sort of credibility to your own beliefs, I recommend you start being pointed and specific in what you're talking about.
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(osieorb18):
Infraction for Feeding the Troll
I think I knew a few people who would site Nostradamus as someone who did divination right because of what he predicted, but didn't he also get hundreds of them wrong? Sounds like luck to me. I also find it weird how they don't give a time frame for the predictions, leaving you to look for evidence that they came true. I used to buy it, but I soon learned how fishy it truly is.
Public Mod Note
(osieorb18):
Infraction for Feeding the Troll
I'm not personally a believer in horoscopes or tarot or anything supernatural. I agree with the entertainment factor, but I also think that they provide an alternate venue for faith (which is fine, just about everyone needs faith in something) and if nothing else, can sort of narrow down the questions you should be asking yourself. Tarot readings, in particular, I feel are less "predicting your future" and more "okay, here's a focused versions of the questions I've been asking myself anyway."
Cause, in the end, most of this stuff is interpretation anyway.
“All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable."
REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.
"Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—"
YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.
"So we can believe the big ones?"
YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.
"They're not the same at all!"
YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.
"Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—"
MY POINT EXACTLY.”
Faith doesn't have to mean Faith in a supreme being or beings.
I acknowledge that faith doesn't necessarily have to do with deities. That said, your Pratchett quote has nothing to do with faith, and you have not answered why "just about everyone needs faith in something".
Faith is the excuse people give for believing something with no good reason. If they had a good reason for believing, they would give that as their reason, instead of "faith". Why does anyone "need" faith in anything?
That said, this discussion about faith should probably be branched off into its own thread.
Do you believe in them or do you like to read only?
All of these things, horoscopes, fortune telling, etc., are all based around fear. One is afraid of the future, because it is outside of one's knowledge or control, and that's scary. At times it can be downright terrifying. But the thing is, rather than face the unknown honestly, there is a great temptation in the human mind to lie to oneself. To pretend like one can anticipate the unknowable, unforeseeable future, because such a thing would offer a feeling of control.
It's all a self-delusion, but people follow it anyway because one is scared to face the truth, which is the fact that there are things that can happen in our lives which are beyond our control, and that we are all at the mercy of the vicissitudes of fate.
That all being said I think there are a lot of people who say they're authentic and they're not. I also believe that even when daily horoscopes are done right they're usually missing key info which makes them incredibly incomplete. It's like trying to solve a 500 piece puzzle and you have five pieces to figure out what the picture is. You're going to miss so often that it's basically pointless. Most forms of divination in general are a lot more complex such that a daily horoscope being mass produced is useless.
Divination does not work, it's more of a ruse to dupe people. I know that having been to quite a few in the past when I was younger and foolish. They all tell you the same thing and none of it comes true. It's simply bunk.
The horoscopes are fun to read though, but it's funnier how much stock people tend to put into them.
I'll just repeat what I said then about there being a lot of people who are trying to scam people. But I'm not terribly concerned with trying to convince you otherwise. Trying to do that on this site in general would be a lot of effort for little to no purpose.
St. Augustine was a student of astrology, and he pointed out a proof about why astrology is bogus that I've yet to hear anyone gainsay in any kind of satisfactory manner. It was the case of two twins, born within moments of each other, during the same hour, under the same stars. Both twins had radically different fates.
I'm sure this happens quite frequently. Yet, astrology persists.
As far as the validity of astrology itself, the issue there is assuming the stars control fate. Influence isn't the same as dictating things, free will and all that jazz. But, again, don't think there is much to be gained by going into it too much.
Free will and diviniation are radically incompatible. If I can simply choose *not* to be in the car accident, I'm not fated to be in it, am I?
And astrology is patently false. In any given second, several children are born. (it was about 4 in 2014; it will be less but not radically for the last few decades).
Do you actually believe those 4 children have the same fates?
Let's take me as an example; I'm a white male born into a middle class family, highly educated, in a solid profession. I'm single, I more-or-less own my home, etc etc.
Odds are very high that 2 or 3 of the other 4 of me were born into poverty of the must adject nature, and odds that at least one of them is dead are not low. Odds are extremely high that 1 or more of the other 3 are female, which is going to involve a pretty spectacularly different life. I'm about 99% likely to be the smartest of the four of us, and of the order of 95% likely to have the highest income.
The idea that any of this is caused by an alignment of stars is so demonstrably unlikely as to be laughable.
Why not? You're saying that there's a reliable method of prognostication - that would be unbelievably valuable if it were to exist. We have everything to gain by going into it.
So, can you clarify what this influence is?
I don't think free will and divination are necessarily incompatible. Now, in your scenario, IF the divination said you'd be in a car accident, AND there were nothing you could do to change that - for instance, if you knew the exact date and time, but could not choose to just not get into your car and not drive - then yes, it would mean you didn't have free will. That doesn't mean there's no free will if there's divination.
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Yeah, free will and divination aren't at odds, the issue is that people look at it as some sort of catch all that answers everything.
I also didn't say that astrology was something that held the answer to life, the universe, and everything in it. Sadly it won't be able to help us reach 42. As for what is missing from astrological charts, at least as a general rule the Sun sign is only a small part of it. It's kind of like trying to paint a painting using only one shade of red. You can only make so much in the way of paintings with that. But I'd rather read debates on the meaning of free will, more interesting.
And that's what you're being vague on. You say astrology works, and yet your past few posts have not been talking about how it works, but rather talking about what it cannot tell us and how it can't be relied upon.
So what useful information CAN astrology give us?
Your fate is determined or it isn't.
If your fate is determined, it is strictly impossible for you to have free will, because otherwise what the gibbering hell do you think free will means? (You can have the *sensation* of having free will, but you don't have it).
If your fate *isn't* determined, then what on earth are you doing with divination? Any predicition you make more personal than the weather on thursday is probably pretty crazy in a world in which my fate is not fixed.
I can tell you flat out that divination does not work. They all just give general predictions that you either deliberately look for evidence of or perhaps subconsciously act out to confirm them. There is ZERO proof that they work or should even be taken seriously. It's just something fun to look at/talk about.
*shrugs* I'm not super convinced with trying to tell you otherwise. I already said that. It's one of those things that would be a lot of work for no real payoff. If that's what you want to believe it doesn't really bother me. I can safely say that they weren't super general and was multiple different people telling me those same specific things, but I don't expect you to believe me, or perhaps you'll go the really crazy route and claim conspiracy.
The thing is, whenever someone tries to do a controlled study on the subject of something like divination, it does no better than random chance, and often does worse. I've seen multiple professionals who believed in what they were selling give different predictions to the same individual. Not just different on the scale of "maybe some of them were better than others", but wildly different predictions.
The most successful predictions -- by which I mean predictions believed by the most people -- are as vague as you have been so far in this thread. If you want to lend any sort of credibility to your own beliefs, I recommend you start being pointed and specific in what you're talking about.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Cause, in the end, most of this stuff is interpretation anyway.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
To quote Terry Pratchett:
“All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable."
REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.
"Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—"
YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.
"So we can believe the big ones?"
YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.
"They're not the same at all!"
YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.
"Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—"
MY POINT EXACTLY.”
Faith doesn't have to mean Faith in a supreme being or beings.
Faith is the excuse people give for believing something with no good reason. If they had a good reason for believing, they would give that as their reason, instead of "faith". Why does anyone "need" faith in anything?
That said, this discussion about faith should probably be branched off into its own thread.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)