Hmm... I am now wary of the next visit to Mirrordin... as each time we go there something gets banned in standard. But on a serious note, as a Jace owner while I'm not estatic about the announcement it is good for the format. (I also got 3 for free from packs and bought the 4th when they were $25, so that might be why I'm not upset) I'm also glad that in their explanation they recognize that cards like oblivion ring and nice catch alls for "mistakes" that they might make, at least as far as permanents go. Guess I'll break out those Valakuts I hid in my closet.
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If they "regret" having to ban cards, then mr R&D... Don't print stupid broken cards like JTMS. The card was really good without the reuseable brainstorm.
Honestly I don't have a problem with Stoneforge. Standard is chock full of removal. Most of it is in colors other than blue and white. With Jace gone maybe those colors would be viable.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Now we now that JTMS is out, can we conclude that Jace Beleeren is going to return in M12. I don't think there going to burn there hands on a new Jace this soon.
I had this idea a while ago simply because (even unbanned), reprinting JTMS would be basically an admition of defeat. I remember a while ago people saying the #1 problem with jace is how every U planeswalker after him is going to be (or better be) a disappointment. They did a nice job with the new Tezz, a card that is good in every format but doesn't completely break except in Legacy. For those of you who don't play legacy, imagine dropping Tezz in an artifact aggro deck where literally the only non-artifact cards are 4 draw spells and 3 of your lands.
Actually, and to be honest, it was all grinders fault. Jace wasn't banned because it was "the best card out of there". This is not why they ban card (look at all the faeries card during lorwyn metagame); they banned him because 90% of the competitive was Jace, Jace, Jace, Jace. If grinders instead of coping each other would have brought some deck that actually beat caw blade, and suck against everything else (Vengevine? Vampires?) there wouldn't be this situation, and we would still have JTMS.
On the other hand, SFM was crazy. I for one i'm happy i'll never, ever see again him. Go die in a fire, SFM!
Some of them did, then they died to the other grinders that had Jace. He's a 3-of in Vintage for Christ's sake
Well, I got a feeling this is going to shake up me and my son's next FNM immensely. Still gonna ask a bud who plays Cawblade there for a game against it for fun, I ache to beat it on my own terms.
I have to say i agree with you there...to beat something on your own terms, now that is Nobel!!!
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The effect could prove so discombobulating to combo players, in particularly, they may fizzle and run away screaming. "From that day the Curse of the Plateau was upon me, and I found every hand I ever pull from a combo deck is a mulligan."
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So happy to see JtMS go although I'm a little sad for Stoneforge since it's a major support in a few decks I use. Oh well just find some other way around it.
I am afraid these guys's hopes will be crushed the same way by splinter twin for the next 3 months.
I honestly don't think Splinter twin is THAT good without Jace. now Splinter twin decks have to run See beyond, and some mix of forsee\tezz gambit to replace that they got in digging power of Jace. And UR twin was a pretty tight decklist. I don't think you can afford to make too many fringe cuts for card selection,
Competitive players get the cards we need to play the game with the best shot of winning. That means we're pretty much forced to own cards like Jace. If you don't understand that, you're simply not a competitive player. We lock into one deck after careful deliberation for the PTQ season. With that deck being banned, we'll have to spend another 200-300 dollars building yet another deck while losing out on a significant portion of our backend.
Here's the long and short of it folks. You guys beat us. You couldn't beat us on the court. You couldn't beat us playing the game we love. No... You cried to your momma long enough and loud enough to have them take away our toys. Then, instead of acting with a sense of decorum and having a shred of the sportsmanship grinders like myself have had every time we've beaten you... you celebrate and talk smack. As I said. This both amuses and disappoints me.
When I could have been unloading mine, I was helping out less resourceful locals loaning them. I figured Wizards had the ability to realize that Jace was NEVER the issue. He's good enough that if you want to run blue control, you need 4, just like mana leak or preordain. As a Cawblade player who has played several hundred matches, I found that Jace was an afterthought in the deck. Stoneforge was the keystone.
I fully anticipated Stoneforge or Batterskull bans as they are simply degenerate. I'm a college student. I pay my rent by playing this game.
You'll still be priced out of the format. Standard has a sort of equilibrium. With Jace gone, other mythics will all increase in value as they see more play. If you want to play RDW for instance, you better have your playset of koths, because he'll probably hit 35-40. Tezzeret will inflate to 40-50, and so on. I can guarantee that the best deck in the next month will be going for 400-500.
I'm sure that's why you're happy, but quite a few here just seem to be pleased at our suffering. Schadenfreude
TY, best post I've seen about the banning so far.
People going to FNM and other competitors will simply complain about the next most dominating deck and how people have to shell out their paycheck to buy it. You all enjoy not seeing Caw-Blade and Jace variants anymore, until other rares and mythics increase and it becomes a struggle again due to supply and demand because a new dominating deck takes place.
And for those who are wondering, I've never even ran Caw-Blade. I actually enjoy playing against the best decks and finding countermeasures against them. I'm just an FNM player, and even I've been able to beat skilled Caw-Blade players about a third of the time with my own homebrew decks.
I know not everyone's situation is the same, but seriously, Caw-Blade can be beaten. People see PTQ results and numbers and think "well this is too broken then". Try studying the popular decklists and come up with a good deck of your own that can counteract Blade or w/e else comes along.
I prefer not to just give up and hope for an unnecessary ban to come along. But as history shows, when the most popular general consensus agrees on something, regardless of good or bad reasoning, changes are usually made to quell the complaints. Go figure.
Whether or not it worked does not validate the play. That's hindsight probability. Let's say I offered you a bet -- I'm going to flip a coin and if it's heads, I'll give you 1 dollar but if it's tails, you'll give me 2 dollars. This is obviously a terrible bet for you. Accepting it is a bad decision. You can't justify it afterwards by arguing that you won the flip, therefore you made the right decision.
UWC and Valakut will completely dominate the format again with a few fringe RDW/Tempered Steel decks sneaking in for wins here and there.
I understand the Stoneforge ban. She was incredibly overpowered with the equipment in the format. However, JTMS was not as overbearingly powerful as people allude to. Even in the 'all-powerful' Caw-Blade deck, JTMS was hardly the go to card anymore. In fact, it was rarely cast as it interrupted the Tempo of a now tempo based deck.
What removing JTMS does to the format... is completely castrate Blue as a color in the format, which is very sad.
Enjoy the Valakut oppression from here until rotation guys. I hope the other grinders boycott the SCG, PT and GP series cause I'm out.
It having been seventeen years since I first flopped a card and fifteen years since my first PTQ, I don't think you have anything to teach me about what makes a competitive player.
JTMS was not banned because it was unbeatable. At Nats Qualifying this year my record against Jace decks was 2-0-1 in matches and 5-1 in games, the single game loss being caused by not knowing what Caw-Blade was and as a result playing round answers he didn't have. (And yes, they did all get Jace out at some point.) As Gulnar said, the problem with JTMS was that nobody was trying to beat it, instead going with the easier option of buying and playing with the perceived strongest card.
what the problem with jace was is that before MBS the Jace decks beat the previously dominate deck (valakut) because you burried them in an avalance of card advantage and Edge\Seas. This deck (valakut) was naturally about 2 turns faster than your most aggresive aggro decks so it was doing a good job of keeping Vengevines away from Jace. Then NPH happened and Sword of feast and famine was way more popular than I assume RnD ever imagined, making stoneforge the cold nuts, and what was Caw-Go turned into Caw Blade. ever since PT Paris your top 8's have been dominated by Stoneforge, into Sword, into jace. the deck had access to squadron hawks which had good interaction with jace before, and were great little bodies to pick up a sword and swing. but Caw-blade wasn't the only deck there was still rug and UB control, sure both decks ran jace, but all 3 decks were different enough that the "Jace Deck" label they all got slapped with was a misnomer, or at the least, a terrible oversimplification of the meta. then NPH happened, cawblade got a 3rd turn baneslayer so now it didn't need valakut to ward off aggro decks, access to opposing 2 drops on the draw (be it lotus cobra or opposing mystics), and Phyrexian Metamorph which is quite frankly the best catch-all answer card available in standard right now.
Was Jace too powerful, maybe. was he what was warping the format, back around PT Paris, yes, now Not even close. Stone-blade was playable without Jace or islands. a "boros" deck took second at GP singapore, the only thing boros about it was tons of fetches and a turn 1 steppe lynx. the problem here is that the Jace banning because of Caw-Blade's dominace, caused RUG, and Ux control to also go away. There is debate as to whether Exarch Twin is viable without Jace, it might be, but without Jace's ability to dig for the combo the deck becomes greatly more inconsistent.
Obviously Valakut will be in a good position to reclaim it's place ontop. proboably easily sweeping aside vampires and elves as I hear Pyroclasm isn't good for them. Spreading Seas Control might find a nich spot in the meta as the deck that tries to wreck Valakut. and they have a solid CA engine and Finisher in Consencrated Sphinx, but who knows how well they can handle anything else in the format.
Competitive players get the cards we need to play the game with the best shot of winning. That means we're pretty much forced to own cards like Jace. If you don't understand that, you're simply not a competitive player. We lock into one deck after careful deliberation for the PTQ season. With that deck being banned, we'll have to spend another 200-300 dollars building yet another deck while losing out on a significant portion of our backend.
So what? You know the risks of invesitng a lot in a particular card. Bannings have happened before, they happened now, and they will happen again. You decided to invest that $$ into cards for a reason, because they helped you win. You can't have the upside and remove the downside. Any investment is a risk, even if they weren't banned, WoTC could have printed an efficient card to shut down Jace and SFM and push Cawblade down to T2 status and you wouldhave lost value.
This is a big reason I resent the grinders: The act like just because they play in a lot of big tourneys they deserve to win and they deserve to have thier cards gain and should hold thier value. I'm a casual player and I'm not bitter I sold my 5 Entombs for $2 a piece about a month before they were unbanned.
Here's the long and short of it folks. You guys beat us. You couldn't beat us on the court. You couldn't beat us playing the game we love. No... You cried to your momma long enough and loud enough to have them take away our toys. Then, instead of acting with a sense of decorum and having a shred of the sportsmanship grinders like myself have had every time we've beaten you... you celebrate and talk smack. As I said. This both amuses and disappoints me.
Newsflash: MTG is not made for just you. It is made for a very large audience, and in this case, you werein the minority. Dela with it. Once again, just because you are a competitive player, you do not deserve to get your way or deserve WoTC to bow to your every whim.
Notice what happend to your tournament attendeance when you were getting your way. People stopped coming, the game was losing players, and losing money, and was being threatened. And your response is basically "So what, as long as I'm winning, I don't care about the health of the game" . And you wonder why no one is shedding a tear for you?
When I could have been unloading mine, I was helping out less resourceful locals loaning them. I figured Wizards had the ability to realize that Jace was NEVER the issue. He's good enough that if you want to run blue control, you need 4, just like mana leak or preordain. As a Cawblade player who has played several hundred matches, I found that Jace was an afterthought in the deck. Stoneforge was the keystone.
And I could have been unloading my Citibank stock at $25 before it went to $3. Ce lest vie.
I fully anticipated Stoneforge or Batterskull bans as they are simply degenerate. I'm a college student. I pay my rent by playing this game.
You choose to pay your rent playing a game, that entails accepting the risk that the game may change and afect you in a negative way. You are not entitled to anything
I'm happy I can pick up a copy of Jace for cheap for my EDH deck now.
As for everyone complainaing about Valakut, it's super easy to hate against. You kill thier Lotus Cobra and thier Oracle and thier ramp stalls and you win the game. You can hate out the titan with Despise and SE. Valakut is nowhere near as resilient or dominat as Cawblade was.
Just remember, this is the singular reason why Garfield never wanted cards to exceed a $20.00 price tag. You can thank the secondary market and pro-players for your suffering. The game marches on with it's diverse formats and you'll recoup your losses in another of those said formats.
Hm. Last week, a guy had like 1 billion life, with some new combo. The only way to pull out the win, was to jace him. Guess who I draw? Jace! Sure enough, Jace won me the game.
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"Someday, someone will best me. But that's not today and it won't be you."
DCI Level 2 Area Judge
The outlook of every blue player:
"I reject your reality and substitute my own."
My Motto:
"Everyone loves Tupperware." Visit my site here.
Honestly I don't have a problem with Stoneforge. Standard is chock full of removal. Most of it is in colors other than blue and white. With Jace gone maybe those colors would be viable.
How come they don't restrict cards in Standard?
I had this idea a while ago simply because (even unbanned), reprinting JTMS would be basically an admition of defeat. I remember a while ago people saying the #1 problem with jace is how every U planeswalker after him is going to be (or better be) a disappointment. They did a nice job with the new Tezz, a card that is good in every format but doesn't completely break except in Legacy. For those of you who don't play legacy, imagine dropping Tezz in an artifact aggro deck where literally the only non-artifact cards are 4 draw spells and 3 of your lands.
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Some of them did, then they died to the other grinders that had Jace. He's a 3-of in Vintage for Christ's sake
I have to say i agree with you there...to beat something on your own terms, now that is Nobel!!!
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Wonderful news!!!
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
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umm... it matters because he's a BAMF which means his opinion > your life.
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Well, Atleast can i play him this last week at FNM? Please answer
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R.I.P Jace.
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Bloodcrank, really guy?
I honestly don't think Splinter twin is THAT good without Jace. now Splinter twin decks have to run See beyond, and some mix of forsee\tezz gambit to replace that they got in digging power of Jace. And UR twin was a pretty tight decklist. I don't think you can afford to make too many fringe cuts for card selection,
TY, best post I've seen about the banning so far.
People going to FNM and other competitors will simply complain about the next most dominating deck and how people have to shell out their paycheck to buy it. You all enjoy not seeing Caw-Blade and Jace variants anymore, until other rares and mythics increase and it becomes a struggle again due to supply and demand because a new dominating deck takes place.
And for those who are wondering, I've never even ran Caw-Blade. I actually enjoy playing against the best decks and finding countermeasures against them. I'm just an FNM player, and even I've been able to beat skilled Caw-Blade players about a third of the time with my own homebrew decks.
I know not everyone's situation is the same, but seriously, Caw-Blade can be beaten. People see PTQ results and numbers and think "well this is too broken then". Try studying the popular decklists and come up with a good deck of your own that can counteract Blade or w/e else comes along.
I prefer not to just give up and hope for an unnecessary ban to come along. But as history shows, when the most popular general consensus agrees on something, regardless of good or bad reasoning, changes are usually made to quell the complaints. Go figure.
I understand the Stoneforge ban. She was incredibly overpowered with the equipment in the format. However, JTMS was not as overbearingly powerful as people allude to. Even in the 'all-powerful' Caw-Blade deck, JTMS was hardly the go to card anymore. In fact, it was rarely cast as it interrupted the Tempo of a now tempo based deck.
What removing JTMS does to the format... is completely castrate Blue as a color in the format, which is very sad.
Enjoy the Valakut oppression from here until rotation guys. I hope the other grinders boycott the SCG, PT and GP series cause I'm out.
what the problem with jace was is that before MBS the Jace decks beat the previously dominate deck (valakut) because you burried them in an avalance of card advantage and Edge\Seas. This deck (valakut) was naturally about 2 turns faster than your most aggresive aggro decks so it was doing a good job of keeping Vengevines away from Jace. Then NPH happened and Sword of feast and famine was way more popular than I assume RnD ever imagined, making stoneforge the cold nuts, and what was Caw-Go turned into Caw Blade. ever since PT Paris your top 8's have been dominated by Stoneforge, into Sword, into jace. the deck had access to squadron hawks which had good interaction with jace before, and were great little bodies to pick up a sword and swing. but Caw-blade wasn't the only deck there was still rug and UB control, sure both decks ran jace, but all 3 decks were different enough that the "Jace Deck" label they all got slapped with was a misnomer, or at the least, a terrible oversimplification of the meta. then NPH happened, cawblade got a 3rd turn baneslayer so now it didn't need valakut to ward off aggro decks, access to opposing 2 drops on the draw (be it lotus cobra or opposing mystics), and Phyrexian Metamorph which is quite frankly the best catch-all answer card available in standard right now.
Was Jace too powerful, maybe. was he what was warping the format, back around PT Paris, yes, now Not even close. Stone-blade was playable without Jace or islands. a "boros" deck took second at GP singapore, the only thing boros about it was tons of fetches and a turn 1 steppe lynx. the problem here is that the Jace banning because of Caw-Blade's dominace, caused RUG, and Ux control to also go away. There is debate as to whether Exarch Twin is viable without Jace, it might be, but without Jace's ability to dig for the combo the deck becomes greatly more inconsistent.
Obviously Valakut will be in a good position to reclaim it's place ontop. proboably easily sweeping aside vampires and elves as I hear Pyroclasm isn't good for them. Spreading Seas Control might find a nich spot in the meta as the deck that tries to wreck Valakut. and they have a solid CA engine and Finisher in Consencrated Sphinx, but who knows how well they can handle anything else in the format.
So what? You know the risks of invesitng a lot in a particular card. Bannings have happened before, they happened now, and they will happen again. You decided to invest that $$ into cards for a reason, because they helped you win. You can't have the upside and remove the downside. Any investment is a risk, even if they weren't banned, WoTC could have printed an efficient card to shut down Jace and SFM and push Cawblade down to T2 status and you wouldhave lost value.
This is a big reason I resent the grinders: The act like just because they play in a lot of big tourneys they deserve to win and they deserve to have thier cards gain and should hold thier value. I'm a casual player and I'm not bitter I sold my 5 Entombs for $2 a piece about a month before they were unbanned.
Newsflash: MTG is not made for just you. It is made for a very large audience, and in this case, you werein the minority. Dela with it. Once again, just because you are a competitive player, you do not deserve to get your way or deserve WoTC to bow to your every whim.
Notice what happend to your tournament attendeance when you were getting your way. People stopped coming, the game was losing players, and losing money, and was being threatened. And your response is basically "So what, as long as I'm winning, I don't care about the health of the game" . And you wonder why no one is shedding a tear for you?
And I could have been unloading my Citibank stock at $25 before it went to $3. Ce lest vie.
You choose to pay your rent playing a game, that entails accepting the risk that the game may change and afect you in a negative way. You are not entitled to anything
I'm happy I can pick up a copy of Jace for cheap for my EDH deck now.
As for everyone complainaing about Valakut, it's super easy to hate against. You kill thier Lotus Cobra and thier Oracle and thier ramp stalls and you win the game. You can hate out the titan with Despise and SE. Valakut is nowhere near as resilient or dominat as Cawblade was.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=6722402#post6722402
I've been dominating FNM week in, and week out with jace.
Now that hes gone, I don't have a replacement.
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