I can buy the argument that Magic is considered a game of chance in the same way black jack or poker is. However...
What kind of bugs me about classifying this as gambling is... it doesn't have the same trappings that gambling at a casino has.
1) The casino scene tends to be closely tied to alcohol, prostitution and in general brings with the club/nightlife crowd that they might not want kids getting involved in. Magic obviously has none of this.
2) People can get addicted to gambling. Because you go to a casino... spend 20 dollars on a game of black jack, leave with 100. Suddenly you have that gambling high and you keep playing until you have no money. With Magic this doesn't happen. You can't just join a tournament with some nothing deck and no play experience and win a bunch of money. There's a barrier to entry. You have to be so good at the game and also have to have already spent 400+ on a deck. So there's no way to get that gambling rush that they fear from classic games like Poker and Blackjack.
I can see how they have a "better to be safe than sorry" attitude. But certainly it makes no sense to tie gambling and magic together.
The thing is that they never said it was down to gambling on this one (Germany they do, but only according to the law, I doubt the average person would agree). They want to study the effects of the game itself on minors, which I don't get.
You know... I take it all back. I can kind of see the argument being made by their government from an extremist "we want to control what our kids are doing" perspective.
I don't agree with it, but they probably don't agree with US's policy on guns or other things.
I feel like the misunderstanding that people have against MTG is a result of them not understanding the culture. I imagine game stores aren't as big of a deal overseas as they are in the US where in a major city you'll have a choice between a dozen stores within a 30 minute drive.
I bet if you sent a few people over here and had them go to a couple of game stores and a few major tournaments and perhaps interview a few players as well. And they'll quickly realize that MTG more closely resembles something like basketball as a hobby than it does gambling. Although that's probably asking too much.
I feel like the misunderstanding that people have against MTG is a result of them not understanding the culture. I imagine game stores aren't as big of a deal overseas as they are in the US where in a major city you'll have a choice between a dozen stores within a 30 minute drive.
I bet if you sent a few people over here and had them go to a couple of game stores and a few major tournaments and perhaps interview a few players as well. And they'll quickly realize that MTG more closely resembles something like basketball as a hobby than it does gambling. Although that's probably asking too much.
Given that Warhammer is more popular overseas, I don't think this is accurate.
GPs are more comparable to major esports events or poker tournaments than Hobby Basketball.
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What's wrong with players under 18 playing in an event if they have parental consent? I have a hard time seeing Magic being played at a professional skill level as gambling. Yes, there is an element of chance to it, but there is an element of chance in every competition. Even Poker at a professional level contains nuances and tactics that are studied and employed with a high degree that makes it hard to throw it under the gambling blanket.
When my younger brother was sixteen or seventeen, he had to get parental permission to enter the GP and then another form had to be filled out by my parents when he finished in the money. This was in the US, specifically Minnesota.
Given that Warhammer is more popular overseas, I don't think this is accurate.
I was making an assumption. Although... I would guess that in a major city, there are probably close to 12 stores that run tournaments within that cities metropolitan, it's played in high schools (or at least the one I went to). I've spent a significant enough time in two different metropolitan areas. Houston and DC. And in both cases I did the reasearch to find out which stores were the best to play at and you had at least 10 to choose from.
If it's as popular overseas as it is in the US, I bet that it would be a no brainer that this isn't a gambling situation. That's all I'm saying. They probably would've heard of the game already and probably would equate it to something more like e-sports than poker.
GPs are more comparable to major esports events or poker tournaments than Hobby Basketball.
Esports I agree with. The reason why I think it's more comparable to basketball than poker is because any yahoo can join a Texas Hold'em tournament and be taught the rules in an hour and not get completely clobbered. Magic on the other hand, even if someone hands you a deck... you aren't going to do well unless you have been around the game for a long time and known the rules, and even then you would want to playtest the deck for a bit to know how to play it. It's the same with basketball. You can't just show up to the rec center having never played basketball and suddenly you are Kobe Bryant. You can't get that instant gratification that you can with gambling that is what leads to you losing your money. Success in major tournaments is tied to how much you know the rules and spend time practicing the decks you think will be played.
I'm quite surprised by this and wouldn't have even heard about it if not for this forum. I'm most surprised because of my travels in Europe and seeing the casinos there. Most of the casinos seemed rather small, smoke filled and depressing. (As opposed to large, smoke filled, opulent, and depressing in the US Some bars also had small electronic gambling machines which isn't the case in the US. I would have never guessed that gambling was a big deal. I had always wondered why the Netherlands seems to have a GP every year while Germany does not. Best of luck getting everything sorted out for GPs in the future!
I'm still not clear on their motivation behind this??? It seems the exact opposite of what is good for the game and the player base in terms of engagement.
I'm still not clear on their motivation behind this??? It seems the exact opposite of what is good for the game and the player base in terms of engagement.
Whose motivation are you talking about? WotC and the organizer didn't want to do this, but were told to by local authorities. And local authorities don't have a job of promoting Magic and doing what's good for players; they have their own completely separate priorities.
I'm still not clear on their motivation behind this??? It seems the exact opposite of what is good for the game and the player base in terms of engagement.
What does Austria care about what is "good for the game?"
I'm still not clear on their motivation behind this??? It seems the exact opposite of what is good for the game and the player base in terms of engagement.
guess you havn't read the rest of the thread. Rules and regulation enforced by the local authorities.
I'm still not clear on their motivation behind this??? It seems the exact opposite of what is good for the game and the player base in terms of engagement.
The motivation was compliance with Austrian law. Barring specific knowledge, the building managers and local authorities erred on the side of caution.
It sounds like a failure on the part of the tournament organizer to seek appropriate clearances and communicate those to the interested bodies within a sufficient time frame. The building managers don't want to be held liable for potentially illegal actions held in their building, and I can't say I blame them, as a MTG tournament is not the beginning and end of their business.
Hopefully, if there is a local (or at least European) arm of WotC nearby, those in charge of organized play will work with local authorities and tournament organizers to spell out some best practices and distribute them in an effort to eliminate future incidents such as this.
I hope you're joking. I was chatting to a friend about what I would have considered acceptable compensation if I was 17 and had spent a weekend going to Vienna. If you assume that a 17 year old's time is worth less than an adult's (who has less free time, generally speaking), I think I would have been okay with a compensation of about 5 booster boxes. Six packs and a couple of promo cards (unless they're something like judge promo Dark Confidant) would be an absolute insult.
Of course, it depends on how much you paid for your travel there, the hotel, etc.
Wizards being the great customer service company they are, probably gave anyone under the age of 18 who showed up at registration a box for this problem.
Wizards being the great customer service company they are, probably gave anyone under the age of 18 who showed up at registration a box for this problem.
Well sure. They had to do something with all the empty boxes the prize support came in, and its easier then throwing them away...:D
That has to be a small number of people, though. I know that as hardcore as I am playing magic, I'd never fly a plane or drive more than 300 miles to a magic event. I was even less likely to as an 18 year old.
I think the more likely scenario is you are under 18 (even worse if you miss the mark by days or months), and you live in Vienna or within 50 miles, and this is the first major magic event and you aren't allowed to play in it. That would suck.
This was posted a while ago and I haven't read further in the thread to see if it was addressed, but DarkRitual, your details say you live in Houston. As far as I know there isn't a public transit system that is widely used in Houston. My impression of your city (never having been) is that nearly everybody drives.
I'm in Boston and the northeast has a decent rail system. I don't need a car at all, and can do everything I need in the city as well as easily get to NYC, Philly, Baltimore, Providence, and Washington, D.C., by rail.
The transit system is even more impressive in Europe. EU has a great rail system and it's widely used to travel among the member countries. I don't know what actually ended up happening with this, but I think the rail system would allow young players to attend from nearly anywhere in the EU.
As a local, the main problem was that GKG did not take care to get all the confirmations. The City of Vienna had no idea what was happening there, it wasn't even sure that the site would be opened on friday due to missing papers. So the City governement hat two possibilities: shut the event down or make it only legal for adults. What is the better option? But now, GKG should be prepared for the next GP Vienna.
I would like to point this post out again because i fear that it will go down in the depths of this forum.
The poster is one of the best informed local people in the magic scene and what he posted is true. GKG simply screwed it up because they did not get all the confirmations in time. This has nothing to do with the gambling laws in austria or authorities "who changed their mind."
I am pretty sure most other countries would have handled it the same way.
This was posted a while ago and I haven't read further in the thread to see if it was addressed, but DarkRitual, your details say you live in Houston. As far as I know there isn't a public transit system that is widely used in Houston. My impression of your city (never having been) is that nearly everybody drives.
I'm in Boston and the northeast has a decent rail system. I don't need a car at all, and can do everything I need in the city as well as easily get to NYC, Philly, Baltimore, Providence, and Washington, D.C., by rail.
The transit system is even more impressive in Europe. EU has a great rail system and it's widely used to travel among the member countries. I don't know what actually ended up happening with this, but I think the rail system would allow young players to attend from nearly anywhere in the EU.
Your Houston assumption is correct.
So is it common\cheap enough for people to jump on the rail system and spend over a day traveling? Cause if I drove to Boston and my plans fell through, that would suck. But I also don't drive to Boston for just a weekend trip.
Also, I need to book a trip to Europe because that sounds really convenient.
So is it common\cheap enough for people to jump on the rail system and spend over a day traveling? Cause if I drove to Boston and my plans fell through, that would suck. But I also don't drive to Boston for just a weekend trip.
Also, I need to book a trip to Europe because that sounds really convenient.
Well, here's another fact that may hit home. France and Germany are two of the larger countries in the EU. France is roughly the size of Texas.
While that's still a large area (you live in a big state!), traveling around by rail in Europe doesn't take quite as long as you'd think. And Austria is "fairly" central, depending on how you're cutting up the landmass.
From what I know it's pretty common. It's decently cheap, though certainly not free. Many people have Eurorail passes that facilitate the travel and make it more affordable. And there are certainly a good number of countries in Europe with high unemployment rates right now. While that may mean fewer people spending money on things like this, it also means more free time.
I'm sure there are others here who could correct me if I'm mis-interpreting things. What I'm saying is based largely on talking with friends and reading the news and just getting general impressions.
Well, here's another fact that may hit home. France and Germany are two of the larger countries in the EU. France is roughly the size of Texas.
While that's still a large area (you live in a big state!), traveling around by rail in Europe doesn't take quite as long as you'd think. And Austria is "fairly" central, depending on how you're cutting up the landmass.
I only consider land east of I-35 (goes through San Antonio, Austin and Dallas) to be "real" Texas. I wouldn't be happy going from Houston to El Paso (900 miles) and getting turned down at the door... unless I had other things I was doing there. If it's just a 4 hour trip to San Antonio, my day isn't any more ruined than if they turned me down in Houston (although, if you travel with people over 18, that adds to the issues cause you can't just leave).
What my original point was when I brought all this up was that I'm not sure if too many under 18 year olds are traveling for more than 8 hours by train (I don't know how far you could go by train) to GPs. And I would say the number of minors going to GPs in general is relatively low as it is (only based on informal polling at GP Houston and GP San Antonio in the past).
So is it common\cheap enough for people to jump on the rail system and spend over a day traveling? Cause if I drove to Boston and my plans fell through, that would suck. But I also don't drive to Boston for just a weekend trip.
Also, I need to book a trip to Europe because that sounds really convenient.
I can second this. I just returned from a trip to Europe and it's really remarkable how cheap and easy it is to get from one country to another. I hit 5 countries in a week, traveling by train and by air, and the trips were usually about 2 hours and ~$75 USD (one way).
For me, it was about equivalent to traveling from Pittsburgh to DC or Chicago on Southwest. It's also very easy for EU citizens to travel freely across borders within the EU.
It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that people gave up their weekends and traveled hundreds of miles for this. Even minors.
Unfortunately, there is no reliable way of ascessing what sort of compensation would be appropriate, due to the great variance of such possible claims.
However, the TO probably wouldn't be losing much on the next GP if they made it free (or made the entry fee significantly smaller) for minors. Any losses they had because of the "no participants under 18" fiasco can probably be reimbursed from the owner of the event site that started the whole magilla, though it might be a bit difficult to get that claim through court.
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What kind of bugs me about classifying this as gambling is... it doesn't have the same trappings that gambling at a casino has.
1) The casino scene tends to be closely tied to alcohol, prostitution and in general brings with the club/nightlife crowd that they might not want kids getting involved in. Magic obviously has none of this.
2) People can get addicted to gambling. Because you go to a casino... spend 20 dollars on a game of black jack, leave with 100. Suddenly you have that gambling high and you keep playing until you have no money. With Magic this doesn't happen. You can't just join a tournament with some nothing deck and no play experience and win a bunch of money. There's a barrier to entry. You have to be so good at the game and also have to have already spent 400+ on a deck. So there's no way to get that gambling rush that they fear from classic games like Poker and Blackjack.
I can see how they have a "better to be safe than sorry" attitude. But certainly it makes no sense to tie gambling and magic together.
You know... I take it all back. I can kind of see the argument being made by their government from an extremist "we want to control what our kids are doing" perspective.
I don't agree with it, but they probably don't agree with US's policy on guns or other things.
I bet if you sent a few people over here and had them go to a couple of game stores and a few major tournaments and perhaps interview a few players as well. And they'll quickly realize that MTG more closely resembles something like basketball as a hobby than it does gambling. Although that's probably asking too much.
Given that Warhammer is more popular overseas, I don't think this is accurate.
GPs are more comparable to major esports events or poker tournaments than Hobby Basketball.
When my younger brother was sixteen or seventeen, he had to get parental permission to enter the GP and then another form had to be filled out by my parents when he finished in the money. This was in the US, specifically Minnesota.
I was making an assumption. Although... I would guess that in a major city, there are probably close to 12 stores that run tournaments within that cities metropolitan, it's played in high schools (or at least the one I went to). I've spent a significant enough time in two different metropolitan areas. Houston and DC. And in both cases I did the reasearch to find out which stores were the best to play at and you had at least 10 to choose from.
If it's as popular overseas as it is in the US, I bet that it would be a no brainer that this isn't a gambling situation. That's all I'm saying. They probably would've heard of the game already and probably would equate it to something more like e-sports than poker.
Esports I agree with. The reason why I think it's more comparable to basketball than poker is because any yahoo can join a Texas Hold'em tournament and be taught the rules in an hour and not get completely clobbered. Magic on the other hand, even if someone hands you a deck... you aren't going to do well unless you have been around the game for a long time and known the rules, and even then you would want to playtest the deck for a bit to know how to play it. It's the same with basketball. You can't just show up to the rec center having never played basketball and suddenly you are Kobe Bryant. You can't get that instant gratification that you can with gambling that is what leads to you losing your money. Success in major tournaments is tied to how much you know the rules and spend time practicing the decks you think will be played.
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GWTrostani, Early Bird (Wurm Tribal)GW
RWAgrus Kos, Bumbat Drinkin' BadassRW
RDiaochan, Hateful BeautyR
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Whose motivation are you talking about? WotC and the organizer didn't want to do this, but were told to by local authorities. And local authorities don't have a job of promoting Magic and doing what's good for players; they have their own completely separate priorities.
----
Lightning Bolts don't kill creatures. State-based actions kill creatures.
What does Austria care about what is "good for the game?"
guess you havn't read the rest of the thread. Rules and regulation enforced by the local authorities.
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Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
The motivation was compliance with Austrian law. Barring specific knowledge, the building managers and local authorities erred on the side of caution.
It sounds like a failure on the part of the tournament organizer to seek appropriate clearances and communicate those to the interested bodies within a sufficient time frame. The building managers don't want to be held liable for potentially illegal actions held in their building, and I can't say I blame them, as a MTG tournament is not the beginning and end of their business.
Hopefully, if there is a local (or at least European) arm of WotC nearby, those in charge of organized play will work with local authorities and tournament organizers to spell out some best practices and distribute them in an effort to eliminate future incidents such as this.
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Of course, it depends on how much you paid for your travel there, the hotel, etc.
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Well sure. They had to do something with all the empty boxes the prize support came in, and its easier then throwing them away...:D
This was posted a while ago and I haven't read further in the thread to see if it was addressed, but DarkRitual, your details say you live in Houston. As far as I know there isn't a public transit system that is widely used in Houston. My impression of your city (never having been) is that nearly everybody drives.
I'm in Boston and the northeast has a decent rail system. I don't need a car at all, and can do everything I need in the city as well as easily get to NYC, Philly, Baltimore, Providence, and Washington, D.C., by rail.
The transit system is even more impressive in Europe. EU has a great rail system and it's widely used to travel among the member countries. I don't know what actually ended up happening with this, but I think the rail system would allow young players to attend from nearly anywhere in the EU.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
I would like to point this post out again because i fear that it will go down in the depths of this forum.
The poster is one of the best informed local people in the magic scene and what he posted is true. GKG simply screwed it up because they did not get all the confirmations in time. This has nothing to do with the gambling laws in austria or authorities "who changed their mind."
I am pretty sure most other countries would have handled it the same way.
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Free drafts. Requirement 17 and younger.
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
Your Houston assumption is correct.
So is it common\cheap enough for people to jump on the rail system and spend over a day traveling? Cause if I drove to Boston and my plans fell through, that would suck. But I also don't drive to Boston for just a weekend trip.
Also, I need to book a trip to Europe because that sounds really convenient.
Well, here's another fact that may hit home. France and Germany are two of the larger countries in the EU. France is roughly the size of Texas.
While that's still a large area (you live in a big state!), traveling around by rail in Europe doesn't take quite as long as you'd think. And Austria is "fairly" central, depending on how you're cutting up the landmass.
From what I know it's pretty common. It's decently cheap, though certainly not free. Many people have Eurorail passes that facilitate the travel and make it more affordable. And there are certainly a good number of countries in Europe with high unemployment rates right now. While that may mean fewer people spending money on things like this, it also means more free time.
I'm sure there are others here who could correct me if I'm mis-interpreting things. What I'm saying is based largely on talking with friends and reading the news and just getting general impressions.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
I only consider land east of I-35 (goes through San Antonio, Austin and Dallas) to be "real" Texas. I wouldn't be happy going from Houston to El Paso (900 miles) and getting turned down at the door... unless I had other things I was doing there. If it's just a 4 hour trip to San Antonio, my day isn't any more ruined than if they turned me down in Houston (although, if you travel with people over 18, that adds to the issues cause you can't just leave).
What my original point was when I brought all this up was that I'm not sure if too many under 18 year olds are traveling for more than 8 hours by train (I don't know how far you could go by train) to GPs. And I would say the number of minors going to GPs in general is relatively low as it is (only based on informal polling at GP Houston and GP San Antonio in the past).
I can second this. I just returned from a trip to Europe and it's really remarkable how cheap and easy it is to get from one country to another. I hit 5 countries in a week, traveling by train and by air, and the trips were usually about 2 hours and ~$75 USD (one way).
For me, it was about equivalent to traveling from Pittsburgh to DC or Chicago on Southwest. It's also very easy for EU citizens to travel freely across borders within the EU.
It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that people gave up their weekends and traveled hundreds of miles for this. Even minors.
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Unfortunately, there is no reliable way of ascessing what sort of compensation would be appropriate, due to the great variance of such possible claims.
However, the TO probably wouldn't be losing much on the next GP if they made it free (or made the entry fee significantly smaller) for minors. Any losses they had because of the "no participants under 18" fiasco can probably be reimbursed from the owner of the event site that started the whole magilla, though it might be a bit difficult to get that claim through court.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
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