That's the current list Yespuhyren has posted I believe. He cut Smokestack for Null Brooch, Gorilla Shaman, and Sundering Titan MD. The 6x spots are random slots that you can change.
not going to pretend to have a real finger on the vintage pulse or anything, but isn't gorilla shaman just an understood component that is great for hosing moxen?
I guess that getting to the lock is easier if you can crush jewelry.
This is an interesting idea. And comes close to an idea me and a freind thought of a few weeks back. But instead of 4x caps we where thinking of at most 2x caps and then run 4x Jester's Scepter. We called the deck MillStax. Because the idea was to use the scepter to keep milling away cards. The plan was this.
Let them draw there card. Then during the draw step after the draw there card (this is taking it that mask is alread in play). You use a welder to switch it out for a scepter that is in the graveyard. There by triggering the scepters comes in to play ability and milling 5 cards. Then at the end of your turn use a welder to replace the scepter with the mask again.
I know this combo requires you have two welders. But I was just wondering weather anyone else has though of this card for the deck or not. I mean in a way it can be a counterspell too. If you remove the right cards with it. And is is also a nice card to give you oppoent worrys too. Because the way the scepter is worded YOU are the only one allowed to see what cards where removed with the scepter. So your oppoent will always have to worry when he sees two open mana and a scepter in play because he will not know weather you will be abal the counter the spell or not that he is about to play.
Like I said it is just an idea me and a friend thought up of a few weeks back and I have been wondering if any one else had thought about it too. And this deck seems to come the close's to the idea.
Gorilla Shaman adds to the early stall \ lock by removing artifact acceleration and forcing opponents moxen to become a bad Lotus Petal. This also makes your Stip \ Crucible lock to be more devastating.
Gorilla Shaman isn't worth it anymore. He's good, especially with Chalice, but he is very localized in the lock-department.
A good way to memorize your deck looks like this:
30 ManaZaars (30 manasources and Bazaars)
17 Standard Locks (Stax, Chalice, Crucible, Welder, 1x Trinisphere)
13 Other Things (Tons of different stuff can go here, but usually it has from 3-4 Uba Mask, 3-4 Tangle Wire, Gorilla Shamans, Sphere of Resistances, Null Rods, Jester's Caps, etc).
You also might have some variance in each of those.
For instance, I only played with 29 ManaZaars for a while (I cut a Wasteland).
I also, with that manabase, cut a Crucible, which gave me 16 Locks.
I had 15 other, then, which was very diverse and versatile. However, cutting the Crucible did hurt me, so I went back up to 4. I was also only running 3 Uba Masks, which gave me alot of utility, but again, was not very consistent, so while I liked it, (and the 3 Uba Masks gave me two pieces of power at Richmond), I decided to go back to 4 recently.
You also want to make sure your red count stays high for your Goblin Welders, and possibly Gorilla Shamans. With only 4 Welders in the maindeck, and no cards that use red mana in the sideboard, you can go down to 8 total red sources in the deck (including Lotus).
The red sources, then, would probably be:
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
4 Barbarian Ring
2 Mountain
However, I like to keep the red count high so my Goblin Welders are always easily castable. When I am running any number of Gorilla Shamans (which I haven't been recently), I refuse to run less than 9.
Here's a sample of what I've been playing:
30 Manazaars
17 Locks
13 Other
30 Manazaars
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Barbarian Ring
3 Mountain
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Rishadan Port
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
9 Red Sources Total.
17 Locks (Goblin Welder isn't really a lock, but he's always a 4-of, just like these other cards, so I just categorize this category as 'locks').
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Goblin Welder
1 Trinisphere
13 Other
4 Uba Mask
4 Tangle Wire
3 Null Rod
2 Duplicant
This list looks very similiar to Vroman's Worlds T8, and it is very good. It emphasizes hard locks with very little versatility in the MD. I like alot of versatility, and am considering cutting Null Rod again.
Also, Gorilla Shaman is very excellent with Tangle Wires. They combo extremely nicely together, in addition to Smokestack.
I've been considering cutting Null Rods for 2 Gorilla Shamans and switching around the mana slightly (-1 Wasteland, +1 Mountain possibly).
Adding in Solemn Simulacrum to the deck takes the red sources up also (he's a virtual source), which Vroman is very fond of doing.
I find Gorilla Shaman to be very useful when you can draw into him often.
The only problem is when you go up to 3+ Gorilla Shamans. I've been experimenting with a configuration that looks like this:
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Chalice of the Void
Which is an extremely good way of cutting off mana to the opponent, as Gorilla Shaman combos very well at ramping the other locks' power-level.
However, each Gorilla Shaman beyond the first is utterly useless. Also, Having multiple Gorilla Shamans in your deck forces you to be hesitant about placing Chalice @ 1, which is huge.
The most I would ever go with Gorilla Shamans is 3, but even that I feel is pushing it. The correct number is either 1 or 2, 2 being preferred to see some measure of consistency.
If you don't want any answers at all, you can take Duplicants out of the deck, cut a Null Rod, add 2 Gorilla Shaman and a Jens to the list I have above and be fine.
Duplicant is very important to the deck though as you WANT your opponent to play Colossus against you a good amount of the time.
I hope this helps in Ubastax construction and theory.
It's nice to set up a lock even if you don't end up countering anything, just by dumping something they need in the grave, you ave their nuts in a bind. In that case you might just consider running an extra Tormod's Crypt.
I'm not a Stax expert by any means, but after goldfishing extensively i'd say that crucible and chalices for 0 are a good first turn for Stax. If you play the Strip mine turn 2 then it's almost game over. Wastes are nice game 1, some people might side out a dual or two (and off color moxen) for basics in games 2 and 3, so be aware. Uba and Bazaars together are insane once you have no cards in hand, it basically turns Bazaars into:
T: Draw 2. Play them this turn.
This is key because all the instant drawing that people will be shooting left and right will turn into relatively naught. However be also careful about the interaction with Thresh / Welders since the stuff you don't play is RFG. This can make your graveyard grow veeeery slowly, or not at all.
Also, be careful with Chalice for 1. It can hose your welders, which sometimes are your only possible damagers. The version i ran only had Duplicants, which are dead when your opponent plays a critterless deck like GrimLong. Some people run Karn because of its dual ability to kill moxen and various 0 cost artifacts while beating for 4. Roland Chang did in 2005 to win Vintage Worlds.
Don't forget that most of your arties work even when tapped (Stax, Tangle, Chalice, Uba) making a nice interaction with the Wire. Also try and use your welders to gain advantage by making sure these arties aren't in play during your upkeep but during theirs.
All in all playing against Stax can be a huge headache because it is specifically designed to make its opponent do absolutely nothing, but sometimes it can come back to stall yourself as well if you aren't careful.
most people side out a dual or two (and off color moxen) for basics in games 2 and 3, so be aware.
I know I havnt been real active for the past few months...but when on earth did people start running basic lands in their sideboards as wasteland defense???
Am I missing something? Or should the above post be disregarded because there is a lack of understanding about the general T1 meta game. Again, I apologize if this is something that is common, but in my numerous years of experience I dont think ive ever seen that tactic out of a good player/deck, maybe in some odd warped meta, heh...usually you would just adjust your MD or deck choice in general if wasteland was that big of a problem for you.
Basically my advice is this...listen to Evenpence, he knows the deck quite well and can give good sound advice on playing it. Be wary of people in general though for any high level vintage deck though, especially on sites that arent www.themanadrain.com . People mean well, but arent always on point with genuine useful/factual information.
On that note though:
Colby...what do you think of Ray's (iamfishman) piece on smokestack being an obsolete piece of equipment? Does this simply turn decks back into 7/10esque builds like his staxless stax deck (which is pretty close really IMO to Carp's Gilded Claw) OR do you think something can make a MORE prison-esque decks sans smokestack? Could UbaStax ever be as succesful as it has been if it was Uba"Stax" with 4 other cards in its stead. Have you tested staxless uba lists out? I am just curious as I have been absent for numerous months. If this has all be discussed at lenght elsewhere you can always just shoot me a link to the thread too.
I know I havnt been real active for the past few months...but when on earth did people start running basic lands in their sideboards as wasteland defense???
First off, I admit that I've only seen this done by Long variants (especially PitchLong). Second, it's only 2 slots out of 15 that can vary greatly from deck to deck. Others will straight up change their duals into green ones just so they can run Xantid Swarm in the control matchup.
This is not a half-baked idea that I came up with. And yes, I do frequent The Mana Drain. Siding out Mox Pearl and 1 Underground Sea out of the 3 you have for an Island and a Swamp is not something I decided was worth doing, it has been discussed quite a bit by people like Menendian and the likes. There's a specific thread about Pitch Long, SBing and general strategy was discussed. Some people even side in Elvish Spirit Guides to make sure they have mana they can pitch when everything on the board is tapped.
And finally, I never said that it was a good idea, just that some people do it.
EDIT: Ok, I said "most people". That was not what I meant. Gonna edit.
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"Dying with good cards in your hand is the surest sign that you did something wrong, somewhere." -Caleb Durward
Colby...what do you think of Ray's (iamfishman) piece on smokestack being an obsolete piece of equipment? Does this simply turn decks back into 7/10esque builds like his staxless stax deck (which is pretty close really IMO to Carp's Gilded Claw) OR do you think something can make a MORE prison-esque decks sans smokestack? Could UbaStax ever be as succesful as it has been if it was Uba"Stax" with 4 other cards in its stead. Have you tested staxless uba lists out? I am just curious as I have been absent for numerous months. If this has all be discussed at lenght elsewhere you can always just shoot me a link to the thread too.
Yespuhyren (Jason) has been working on a Staxless Ubastax build for some time now. Usually he runs 4x Jester's Cap in place of 4x Smokestack.
Smokestack is very good. It has one fundamental flaw: It's slow.
However, when you pair this with tons of cheap disruption (Chalice of the Void leads the forefront, although Tangle Wire and Null Rod are also huge candidates), being slow is hardly a problem.
First turn Stax gives them roughly one (or two) turns to try to recover before you completely lock them out of the game. Stax is not as good in the late game, but then again, NOTHING in a Stax game is very good late-game, save Mindslaver.
The list I ran at Boston (day 2) which I feel is the strongest version of Ubastax to date is the following:
19 Lands
4 Workshop
4 Bazaar
4 Barbarian Ring
3 Mountain
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
10 Artifact Accelerants
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 MOX DIAMOND
17 Staple Locks
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Goblin Welder
1 Trinisphere
Null Brooch is insane. It's 10x better than Jester's Cap, imo. Not only can you stop mass bounce for your artifacts, but Null Brooch's ability can't be countered by conventional means.
This makes Null Brooch + Uba Mask an entirely new lock in the deck.
Mox Diamond is also insane, giving an added piece of COLORED acceleration to the deck.
I did very well with the deck on Day 2 (Day 1 I had really bad luck, unfortuantely), and essentially T8ed, conceding to a close friend (Joe Davis), so he could have his first SCG T8. He split the Pearl with me.
I remember Cron and smmemennen talking about Mox Diamond in Stax some time ago, they were always on the fence with it. They found it great in theory but never came up with results to make it actually work well in the overall plan. The catch here though is that this list is signifigantly different than the Stax lists immediatly following Trinispheres restriction and Stax has gone a different direction than "cronstax." In cron stax Diamond was simply not acceptable because it was an afwul mid to late game top deck (even worse than most of the other cards in the deck that you point out suck late game, heh)
Like the list though...and it should be of note that a 5color Uba list won day one at Boston.
@ Vincent
Others will straight up change their duals into green ones just so they can run Xantid Swarm in the control matchup.
Dragon does something similar but is generally making their base worse against wasteland by adding green duals for Xantid Swarm...Peter (dicemanx) admittedly doesnt seem to really support this idea and from what I have seen many people find this to be a BAD option for Dragon as far as SB options go.
The VAST majority of decks will not run basic lands in the SB just to bring in against wastelands. Usually if wasteland is that big of a problem a good deckbuilder will adjust properly in the main deck, generally by adding basics instead of duals in the MD...using SB slots for basics generally seems to show a poorly thoughout deck design and sideboarding IMO, I would assume even the few examples you could give would say either A: they were just too lazy to do it, or B: Couldnt think of anything else to put there.
Listing a few names on pitch long threads is also somewhat misleading. Steve is pretty good at touting all sorts of odd theory that he can swing to make sense to a few people. A pretty good majority of that theory is never really used or remains a simple theory that is found not to be "optimal" in the long run. I have seen similar from Stephen in the past though such as the SB in a grim long article that featured more artifact mana (chrome mox and something) that would come in in non-workshop matches to speed up the goldfish and make it more reliable for that matchup. I suppose this can be applied to your pitchlong example.
The point is though that this is rare. You sort of make it out to be a much bigger deal than it really is and unless Evenpence or another can think up something better you generally arent going to change too much game 2 against combo with stax (at least not in wastelands place) Wasteland is still good in the matchup against a lot of the lands in the opponents build and can still cripple combo. My main concern with your post was the whole intro:
I'm not a Stax expert by any means, but after goldfishing extensively i'd say that crucible and chalices for 0 are a good first turn for Stax. If you play the Strip mine turn 2 then it's almost game over. Wastes are nice game 1, some people might side out a dual or two (and off color moxen) for basics in games 2 and 3, so be aware.
If you attmitedly dont know much about stax outside of a few goldfishes then why bother to post about it? I would guess that even a non-stax player could figure out that strip + crucible is pretty good. You also flatly state that first turn chalice or crucible are good first turn plays...this is pretty relative if you think about it. Which list of Uba are you talking about first?...second what meta are you in? What is your opponent playing? etc etc etc...those plays might blow goats. Furthermore a flatout statement about chalice being good set to 0 might be a major mis-type if your opponent has a ton of important pieces sitting at 1cc. If instead you mean that Crucible + Chalice 0 is a good first turn play then you have another "duh" statement that should be pretty apparent to most people, especially if your statement expands further to include either strip or waste.
Look, heh...I apologize if it seems like I am hassling you too much. I am giving this more as a general example of pointless and often useless information that needs never be posted. It is a large part of why TMD is generally so good for T1 information. Although it might be a good part of why TMD comes off to new users and outsiders as "elitest"
If you dont know much if anything about a topic, then please dont bother to post about it. For example; I seldom if ever post about Control Slaver or Gifts. I do not pretend to know enough about those decks to contribute any realistic advice about those builds. Yes I have goldfished them and know the decks (since I have to play against them often).
There are reasons why certain people get names attached to certain decks (chang and cron and vroman for stax, smmenen for long, Rich Shay for control slaver, brassman for gifts, DicemanX for dragon etc etc etc, lol even me for Cerebral Assasin) It is because these people not only innovate these decks pretty often, but because they are known for posting knowledgeable, TESTED, experienced information about said decks. VincentVega here can be known as a great source of information because he knows his stuff, or he can be ignored by a lot (or worse can pass low quality info) because he gives advice on something he himself has little knowledge about.
So once again, I apologize vincent, honestly its rough that you are the example I am trying to make...rest assured that you arent alone and that I really am not trying to single you out so much, heh. But guys, if you dont know much try to tone down the amount of responses on things you know little about.
First turn Crucible with nothing else is 95% of the time a horrible play. The only time I would even consider keeping a hand that had no other relevant Turn 1 locks in it would be the following:
1) If I had strip + alot of artifact mana.
2) If I had shop + another mana producing land + Stax or POSSIBLY Uba Mask (i.e., higher cc locks which I would much rather prefer to play turn 1).
3) If I were playing a deck that ran 5+ strip effects, did not have a fast clock, and was easily wastelanded (Fish) + waste effect in hand.
Chalice, on the other hand, is probably the best card you can see in your opening hand on the play.
My order of locks on TMD is pretty easy to follow, and they're actually different than Vromans, although mine are more similiar to Vroman's when I'm playing with Rods:
*------------------------------------*
Quote from: vroman on September 13, 2006, 08:41:49 AM
Ive found that black lotus is far from the strongest mana source in ubastax.
I would rank them as:
workshop#1
workshop#2
workshop#3
mana crypt
mox ruby
workshop#4
sol ring
black lotus
X mox#1
X mox#2
X mox#3
mana vault
X mox#4
all other lands
color mana just isnt that important in the deck, vs losing a permanent and putting an artifact in the yard at possibly inoportune time. I board out lotus against welder decks. Ive lost plenty of times to: win roll, mtn+lotus->uba mask, and they drop turn 1 welder.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Vroman, my ranking is pretty similar to yours, although I don't understand Workshop #4 being that far down - I just say that Workshop is more important than any card in the deck.
My list goes like this:
Workshops
Mana Crypt
Sol Ring (I don't know how you can put Ruby above Sol Ring)
Black Lotus (I've won so many games off of Lotus it's stupid - Sol Ring is only slightly better imo)
Mox Ruby
Other Moxes
Mana Vault
Mox Diamond (Yes, I'm currently running this card and I'm never looking back - this card is stupid good, and you should run it Vroman)
Red Lands
Colroless Producing Lands
Grim Monolith (not running this, but it can be put in the deck if you're short on a single proxy or something)
Mana Vault and Mox Diamond are extremely close to switching places. The only reason I have Vault at a higher position is because it allows for Turn 1 insane plays easier.
The most important cards in the deck, imo, in order are:
(Trinisphere?)
Workshop
Bazaar
(Strip Mine?)
Welder
Chalice
Smokestack
Wire
Uba
Duplicant
Crucible
Gorilla Shaman (if he's even in here) (in multiples, like two of him, he's right below wire)
Wasteland
I don't know how to rank restricted bombs, like Trini and Strip - I have no idea where the other cards would be with them in the mix. My friends and I were just talking about what cards are the most important cards in each archetype, and how to rank them, so I figured I'd write this. Good timing.
*-----------------------------------------------*
Chalice and Welders are especially deadly in multiples.
For instance, I was blessed with quite possibly the most powerful hand against Gifts I have ever had on my last game of SCG Boston against Joe Davis, who was playing Gifts (which I slaughtered, but conceded so he would get in. :))
Mana Crypt
Barbarian Ring x 2
Chalice of the Void x 2
Goblin Welder x 2
That hand is simply absurd against Gifts. I drew Uba Mask next turn and cast that instead of Chalice @ 2, then followed it up with Chalice @ 2 - he had forces for both my welders (regardless), and I would have topdecked ways to get rid of the Mana Crypt before lethal.
I found out later that his hand was comprised of three 0-mana artifacts, which, at the time of Uba resolving, was all he had in his hand for the rest of the game (Mind Twist ftw).
The locks go in different orders against different decks (sometimes wildly different, such as Crucible - it should go MUCH higher against Stax, for instance), but without knowing what deck you're playing against, and with a balanced metagame, I believe the above order is correct when playing a build without rods.
Something I tried awhile back was trying to work in Gamble given its synergy with Crucible and Welder. It never really worked out because Gamble is horrible with Uba Mask forcing you had to rework the whole deck. Just something to think about.
Granite Shard in the board for goblins cause it costs 3 Workshop mana to play and is easy to activate?
Or for killing Forbidden Orchard tokens? or maybe a little of both?
would Serrated Arrows be any better (nice welder synergy)? or is the shard also serving double duty for stalled games as 1/2 a barbarian ring?
Most of the important creatures in the format are X/1's, so Granite Shard nukes them all. It's better in this regard than Serrated arrows because a) it costs 1 less, and b) its a win condition.
The Mage idea won't work in Null Rod-based UbaStax. The versions Evenpence was working from needed the artifact mana to safely get Mage onto the table in a timely manner. This isn't to say the idea was even that great to begin with, but Null Rod is a great way to ensure that you'll never cast Mage short of the 8 planets and Pluto (RIP) aligning.
Just to be clear I was being sarcastic on the Meddling Mage thing.
Well, it was seriously tested way back in September/October by my team and it was found to be decent in improving certain matchups, but it isn't required. There are better ways to tune against fish and UbaShop decks less Null Rod already destroy Gifts.
Well, it was seriously tested way back in September/October by my team and it was found to be decent in improving certain matchups, but it isn't required. There are better ways to tune against fish and UbaShop decks less Null Rod already destroy Gifts.
Yeah, I was refering to the TMD thread about it. I honestly don't think it has any place in Uba Stax. I agree there are much stronger ways to deal with just about any archtype. Null Brooch for instance can do a similair thing, and not require 2 colored mana sources.
I had a question: how do you play the deck? I see that you lock your opponent, but I'd like to know more about the deck. Especialy how to play it.
Thanks in advance.
Does anyone have an idea what I should play in the empty slot?
EDIT:
Just one question also remains: what has priority to play first?
4x Bazaar of Baghdad
4x Barbarian Ring
4x Mountain
3x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
1x Tolarian Academy
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Emerald
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt
4x Goblin Welder
1x Trinisphere
4x Tangle Wire
4x Jester's Cap
4x Crucible of Worlds
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Uba Mask
2x Null Brooch
2x Gorilla Shaman
2x Sundering Titan
Sideboard:
4x Pyrostatic Pillar
3x Goblin Bombardment
3x Duplicant
3x Granite Shard
2x Tormod's Crypt
That's the current list Yespuhyren has posted I believe. He cut Smokestack for Null Brooch, Gorilla Shaman, and Sundering Titan MD. The 6x spots are random slots that you can change.
I guess that getting to the lock is easier if you can crush jewelry.
Let them draw there card. Then during the draw step after the draw there card (this is taking it that mask is alread in play). You use a welder to switch it out for a scepter that is in the graveyard. There by triggering the scepters comes in to play ability and milling 5 cards. Then at the end of your turn use a welder to replace the scepter with the mask again.
I know this combo requires you have two welders. But I was just wondering weather anyone else has though of this card for the deck or not. I mean in a way it can be a counterspell too. If you remove the right cards with it. And is is also a nice card to give you oppoent worrys too. Because the way the scepter is worded YOU are the only one allowed to see what cards where removed with the scepter. So your oppoent will always have to worry when he sees two open mana and a scepter in play because he will not know weather you will be abal the counter the spell or not that he is about to play.
Like I said it is just an idea me and a friend thought up of a few weeks back and I have been wondering if any one else had thought about it too. And this deck seems to come the close's to the idea.
A good way to memorize your deck looks like this:
30 ManaZaars (30 manasources and Bazaars)
17 Standard Locks (Stax, Chalice, Crucible, Welder, 1x Trinisphere)
13 Other Things (Tons of different stuff can go here, but usually it has from 3-4 Uba Mask, 3-4 Tangle Wire, Gorilla Shamans, Sphere of Resistances, Null Rods, Jester's Caps, etc).
You also might have some variance in each of those.
For instance, I only played with 29 ManaZaars for a while (I cut a Wasteland).
I also, with that manabase, cut a Crucible, which gave me 16 Locks.
I had 15 other, then, which was very diverse and versatile. However, cutting the Crucible did hurt me, so I went back up to 4. I was also only running 3 Uba Masks, which gave me alot of utility, but again, was not very consistent, so while I liked it, (and the 3 Uba Masks gave me two pieces of power at Richmond), I decided to go back to 4 recently.
You also want to make sure your red count stays high for your Goblin Welders, and possibly Gorilla Shamans. With only 4 Welders in the maindeck, and no cards that use red mana in the sideboard, you can go down to 8 total red sources in the deck (including Lotus).
The red sources, then, would probably be:
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
4 Barbarian Ring
2 Mountain
However, I like to keep the red count high so my Goblin Welders are always easily castable. When I am running any number of Gorilla Shamans (which I haven't been recently), I refuse to run less than 9.
Here's a sample of what I've been playing:
30 Manazaars
17 Locks
13 Other
30 Manazaars
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Barbarian Ring
3 Mountain
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Rishadan Port
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
9 Red Sources Total.
17 Locks (Goblin Welder isn't really a lock, but he's always a 4-of, just like these other cards, so I just categorize this category as 'locks').
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Goblin Welder
1 Trinisphere
13 Other
4 Uba Mask
4 Tangle Wire
3 Null Rod
2 Duplicant
This list looks very similiar to Vroman's Worlds T8, and it is very good. It emphasizes hard locks with very little versatility in the MD. I like alot of versatility, and am considering cutting Null Rod again.
Also, Gorilla Shaman is very excellent with Tangle Wires. They combo extremely nicely together, in addition to Smokestack.
I've been considering cutting Null Rods for 2 Gorilla Shamans and switching around the mana slightly (-1 Wasteland, +1 Mountain possibly).
Adding in Solemn Simulacrum to the deck takes the red sources up also (he's a virtual source), which Vroman is very fond of doing.
I find Gorilla Shaman to be very useful when you can draw into him often.
The only problem is when you go up to 3+ Gorilla Shamans. I've been experimenting with a configuration that looks like this:
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Chalice of the Void
Which is an extremely good way of cutting off mana to the opponent, as Gorilla Shaman combos very well at ramping the other locks' power-level.
However, each Gorilla Shaman beyond the first is utterly useless. Also, Having multiple Gorilla Shamans in your deck forces you to be hesitant about placing Chalice @ 1, which is huge.
The most I would ever go with Gorilla Shamans is 3, but even that I feel is pushing it. The correct number is either 1 or 2, 2 being preferred to see some measure of consistency.
If you don't want any answers at all, you can take Duplicants out of the deck, cut a Null Rod, add 2 Gorilla Shaman and a Jens to the list I have above and be fine.
Duplicant is very important to the deck though as you WANT your opponent to play Colossus against you a good amount of the time.
I hope this helps in Ubastax construction and theory.
T: Draw 2. Play them this turn.
This is key because all the instant drawing that people will be shooting left and right will turn into relatively naught. However be also careful about the interaction with Thresh / Welders since the stuff you don't play is RFG. This can make your graveyard grow veeeery slowly, or not at all.
Also, be careful with Chalice for 1. It can hose your welders, which sometimes are your only possible damagers. The version i ran only had Duplicants, which are dead when your opponent plays a critterless deck like GrimLong. Some people run Karn because of its dual ability to kill moxen and various 0 cost artifacts while beating for 4. Roland Chang did in 2005 to win Vintage Worlds.
Don't forget that most of your arties work even when tapped (Stax, Tangle, Chalice, Uba) making a nice interaction with the Wire. Also try and use your welders to gain advantage by making sure these arties aren't in play during your upkeep but during theirs.
All in all playing against Stax can be a huge headache because it is specifically designed to make its opponent do absolutely nothing, but sometimes it can come back to stall yourself as well if you aren't careful.
Hope this helps!
Modern
Mono-U Tron
Zombie Loam
Infect
Legacy
Delver
TES
I know I havnt been real active for the past few months...but when on earth did people start running basic lands in their sideboards as wasteland defense???
Am I missing something? Or should the above post be disregarded because there is a lack of understanding about the general T1 meta game. Again, I apologize if this is something that is common, but in my numerous years of experience I dont think ive ever seen that tactic out of a good player/deck, maybe in some odd warped meta, heh...usually you would just adjust your MD or deck choice in general if wasteland was that big of a problem for you.
Basically my advice is this...listen to Evenpence, he knows the deck quite well and can give good sound advice on playing it. Be wary of people in general though for any high level vintage deck though, especially on sites that arent www.themanadrain.com . People mean well, but arent always on point with genuine useful/factual information.
On that note though:
Colby...what do you think of Ray's (iamfishman) piece on smokestack being an obsolete piece of equipment? Does this simply turn decks back into 7/10esque builds like his staxless stax deck (which is pretty close really IMO to Carp's Gilded Claw) OR do you think something can make a MORE prison-esque decks sans smokestack? Could UbaStax ever be as succesful as it has been if it was Uba"Stax" with 4 other cards in its stead. Have you tested staxless uba lists out? I am just curious as I have been absent for numerous months. If this has all be discussed at lenght elsewhere you can always just shoot me a link to the thread too.
First off, I admit that I've only seen this done by Long variants (especially PitchLong). Second, it's only 2 slots out of 15 that can vary greatly from deck to deck. Others will straight up change their duals into green ones just so they can run Xantid Swarm in the control matchup.
Third, Look at Paul Mastriano's SB from Worlds 06...
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/vintage06/welcome
This is not a half-baked idea that I came up with. And yes, I do frequent The Mana Drain. Siding out Mox Pearl and 1 Underground Sea out of the 3 you have for an Island and a Swamp is not something I decided was worth doing, it has been discussed quite a bit by people like Menendian and the likes. There's a specific thread about Pitch Long, SBing and general strategy was discussed. Some people even side in Elvish Spirit Guides to make sure they have mana they can pitch when everything on the board is tapped.
And finally, I never said that it was a good idea, just that some people do it.
EDIT: Ok, I said "most people". That was not what I meant. Gonna edit.
Modern
Mono-U Tron
Zombie Loam
Infect
Legacy
Delver
TES
Yespuhyren (Jason) has been working on a Staxless Ubastax build for some time now. Usually he runs 4x Jester's Cap in place of 4x Smokestack.
Smokestack is very good. It has one fundamental flaw: It's slow.
However, when you pair this with tons of cheap disruption (Chalice of the Void leads the forefront, although Tangle Wire and Null Rod are also huge candidates), being slow is hardly a problem.
First turn Stax gives them roughly one (or two) turns to try to recover before you completely lock them out of the game. Stax is not as good in the late game, but then again, NOTHING in a Stax game is very good late-game, save Mindslaver.
The list I ran at Boston (day 2) which I feel is the strongest version of Ubastax to date is the following:
19 Lands
4 Workshop
4 Bazaar
4 Barbarian Ring
3 Mountain
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
10 Artifact Accelerants
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 MOX DIAMOND
17 Staple Locks
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Goblin Welder
1 Trinisphere
6 INSANITY!
3 NULL BROOCH
1 MINDSLAVER
1 DUPLICANT
1 TORMOD'S CRYPT
15 Sideboard:
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Granite Shard
3 Tormod's Crypt
Null Brooch is insane. It's 10x better than Jester's Cap, imo. Not only can you stop mass bounce for your artifacts, but Null Brooch's ability can't be countered by conventional means.
This makes Null Brooch + Uba Mask an entirely new lock in the deck.
Mox Diamond is also insane, giving an added piece of COLORED acceleration to the deck.
I did very well with the deck on Day 2 (Day 1 I had really bad luck, unfortuantely), and essentially T8ed, conceding to a close friend (Joe Davis), so he could have his first SCG T8. He split the Pearl with me.
I remember Cron and smmemennen talking about Mox Diamond in Stax some time ago, they were always on the fence with it. They found it great in theory but never came up with results to make it actually work well in the overall plan. The catch here though is that this list is signifigantly different than the Stax lists immediatly following Trinispheres restriction and Stax has gone a different direction than "cronstax." In cron stax Diamond was simply not acceptable because it was an afwul mid to late game top deck (even worse than most of the other cards in the deck that you point out suck late game, heh)
Like the list though...and it should be of note that a 5color Uba list won day one at Boston.
@ Vincent
Dragon does something similar but is generally making their base worse against wasteland by adding green duals for Xantid Swarm...Peter (dicemanx) admittedly doesnt seem to really support this idea and from what I have seen many people find this to be a BAD option for Dragon as far as SB options go.
The VAST majority of decks will not run basic lands in the SB just to bring in against wastelands. Usually if wasteland is that big of a problem a good deckbuilder will adjust properly in the main deck, generally by adding basics instead of duals in the MD...using SB slots for basics generally seems to show a poorly thoughout deck design and sideboarding IMO, I would assume even the few examples you could give would say either A: they were just too lazy to do it, or B: Couldnt think of anything else to put there.
Listing a few names on pitch long threads is also somewhat misleading. Steve is pretty good at touting all sorts of odd theory that he can swing to make sense to a few people. A pretty good majority of that theory is never really used or remains a simple theory that is found not to be "optimal" in the long run. I have seen similar from Stephen in the past though such as the SB in a grim long article that featured more artifact mana (chrome mox and something) that would come in in non-workshop matches to speed up the goldfish and make it more reliable for that matchup. I suppose this can be applied to your pitchlong example.
The point is though that this is rare. You sort of make it out to be a much bigger deal than it really is and unless Evenpence or another can think up something better you generally arent going to change too much game 2 against combo with stax (at least not in wastelands place) Wasteland is still good in the matchup against a lot of the lands in the opponents build and can still cripple combo. My main concern with your post was the whole intro:
If you attmitedly dont know much about stax outside of a few goldfishes then why bother to post about it? I would guess that even a non-stax player could figure out that strip + crucible is pretty good. You also flatly state that first turn chalice or crucible are good first turn plays...this is pretty relative if you think about it. Which list of Uba are you talking about first?...second what meta are you in? What is your opponent playing? etc etc etc...those plays might blow goats. Furthermore a flatout statement about chalice being good set to 0 might be a major mis-type if your opponent has a ton of important pieces sitting at 1cc. If instead you mean that Crucible + Chalice 0 is a good first turn play then you have another "duh" statement that should be pretty apparent to most people, especially if your statement expands further to include either strip or waste.
Look, heh...I apologize if it seems like I am hassling you too much. I am giving this more as a general example of pointless and often useless information that needs never be posted. It is a large part of why TMD is generally so good for T1 information. Although it might be a good part of why TMD comes off to new users and outsiders as "elitest"
If you dont know much if anything about a topic, then please dont bother to post about it. For example; I seldom if ever post about Control Slaver or Gifts. I do not pretend to know enough about those decks to contribute any realistic advice about those builds. Yes I have goldfished them and know the decks (since I have to play against them often).
There are reasons why certain people get names attached to certain decks (chang and cron and vroman for stax, smmenen for long, Rich Shay for control slaver, brassman for gifts, DicemanX for dragon etc etc etc, lol even me for Cerebral Assasin) It is because these people not only innovate these decks pretty often, but because they are known for posting knowledgeable, TESTED, experienced information about said decks. VincentVega here can be known as a great source of information because he knows his stuff, or he can be ignored by a lot (or worse can pass low quality info) because he gives advice on something he himself has little knowledge about.
So once again, I apologize vincent, honestly its rough that you are the example I am trying to make...rest assured that you arent alone and that I really am not trying to single you out so much, heh. But guys, if you dont know much try to tone down the amount of responses on things you know little about.
1) If I had strip + alot of artifact mana.
2) If I had shop + another mana producing land + Stax or POSSIBLY Uba Mask (i.e., higher cc locks which I would much rather prefer to play turn 1).
3) If I were playing a deck that ran 5+ strip effects, did not have a fast clock, and was easily wastelanded (Fish) + waste effect in hand.
Chalice, on the other hand, is probably the best card you can see in your opening hand on the play.
My order of locks on TMD is pretty easy to follow, and they're actually different than Vromans, although mine are more similiar to Vroman's when I'm playing with Rods:
*------------------------------------*
Quote from: vroman on September 13, 2006, 08:41:49 AM
Ive found that black lotus is far from the strongest mana source in ubastax.
I would rank them as:
workshop#1
workshop#2
workshop#3
mana crypt
mox ruby
workshop#4
sol ring
black lotus
X mox#1
X mox#2
X mox#3
mana vault
X mox#4
all other lands
color mana just isnt that important in the deck, vs losing a permanent and putting an artifact in the yard at possibly inoportune time. I board out lotus against welder decks. Ive lost plenty of times to: win roll, mtn+lotus->uba mask, and they drop turn 1 welder.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Vroman, my ranking is pretty similar to yours, although I don't understand Workshop #4 being that far down - I just say that Workshop is more important than any card in the deck.
My list goes like this:
Workshops
Mana Crypt
Sol Ring (I don't know how you can put Ruby above Sol Ring)
Black Lotus (I've won so many games off of Lotus it's stupid - Sol Ring is only slightly better imo)
Mox Ruby
Other Moxes
Mana Vault
Mox Diamond (Yes, I'm currently running this card and I'm never looking back - this card is stupid good, and you should run it Vroman)
Red Lands
Colroless Producing Lands
Grim Monolith (not running this, but it can be put in the deck if you're short on a single proxy or something)
Mana Vault and Mox Diamond are extremely close to switching places. The only reason I have Vault at a higher position is because it allows for Turn 1 insane plays easier.
The most important cards in the deck, imo, in order are:
(Trinisphere?)
Workshop
Bazaar
(Strip Mine?)
Welder
Chalice
Smokestack
Wire
Uba
Duplicant
Crucible
Gorilla Shaman (if he's even in here) (in multiples, like two of him, he's right below wire)
Wasteland
I don't know how to rank restricted bombs, like Trini and Strip - I have no idea where the other cards would be with them in the mix. My friends and I were just talking about what cards are the most important cards in each archetype, and how to rank them, so I figured I'd write this. Good timing.
*-----------------------------------------------*
Chalice and Welders are especially deadly in multiples.
For instance, I was blessed with quite possibly the most powerful hand against Gifts I have ever had on my last game of SCG Boston against Joe Davis, who was playing Gifts (which I slaughtered, but conceded so he would get in. :))
Mana Crypt
Barbarian Ring x 2
Chalice of the Void x 2
Goblin Welder x 2
That hand is simply absurd against Gifts. I drew Uba Mask next turn and cast that instead of Chalice @ 2, then followed it up with Chalice @ 2 - he had forces for both my welders (regardless), and I would have topdecked ways to get rid of the Mana Crypt before lethal.
I found out later that his hand was comprised of three 0-mana artifacts, which, at the time of Uba resolving, was all he had in his hand for the rest of the game (Mind Twist ftw).
The locks go in different orders against different decks (sometimes wildly different, such as Crucible - it should go MUCH higher against Stax, for instance), but without knowing what deck you're playing against, and with a balanced metagame, I believe the above order is correct when playing a build without rods.
1 Black Lotus
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Null Rod
4 Smokestack
1 Sol Ring
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere
4 Uba Mask
1 Duplicant
1 Solemn Simulacrum
Creatures
4 Goblin Welder
Basic Lands
3 Mountain
Lands
3 Barbarian Ring
4 Bazaar Of Baghdad
4 Mishra's Workshop
2 Rishadan Port
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
Legendary Lands
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Granite Shard
3 Jester's Cap
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Duplicant
3 Viashino Heretic
Something I tried awhile back was trying to work in Gamble given its synergy with Crucible and Welder. It never really worked out because Gamble is horrible with Uba Mask forcing you had to rework the whole deck. Just something to think about.
Or for killing Forbidden Orchard tokens? or maybe a little of both?
would Serrated Arrows be any better (nice welder synergy)? or is the shard also serving double duty for stalled games as 1/2 a barbarian ring?
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Well, it was seriously tested way back in September/October by my team and it was found to be decent in improving certain matchups, but it isn't required. There are better ways to tune against fish and UbaShop decks less Null Rod already destroy Gifts.
Yeah, I was refering to the TMD thread about it. I honestly don't think it has any place in Uba Stax. I agree there are much stronger ways to deal with just about any archtype. Null Brooch for instance can do a similair thing, and not require 2 colored mana sources.
4 barbarian ring
4 mishra's factory
3 wasteland
2 mountain
1 tolarian academy
1 strip mine
5 mox
1 sol ring
1 black lotus
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
4 bazaar baghdad
4 welder
4 chalice void
4 crucible worlds
4 tangle wire
3 uba mask
3 null rod
3 smokestack
2 duplicant
1 trinisphere
4 granite shard
3 viashino heretic
3 thought prison
3 tormod's crypt
2 duplicant
Please use deck tags when posting a deck.--Binary
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