Too many cards cluttering up a deck for a singular purpous. Not enough range of variety. Plus ancestral recall costs $140 which is way too expensive. Plus if you are going to eternal witness something, in vintage, I would hope you wernt going to eternal witness a card that would give you a random outcome. It could very well be 3 land you draw. Of course it may get you past all the junk that you would be drawing, but why when you could just Eternal Witness your win con? Well, time to go to work.. Talk with you more about it in 8 hours.
You do understand that the deck wins by reanimating Eternal Witness during the Dragon loop, thereby allowing you to recur Ancestral Recall once for every iteration of the loop, right? It's not like you're only playing Ancestral Recall twice in a game. Once you've properly started the loop, it doesn't matter whether you recur Ancestral Recall and draw 3 land because you're just playing the Recall again in 3 seconds.
Also, this is a thread for a competitive Vintage deck, and the reality of competitive Vintage is that expensive cards get played. The deck already demands 4xBazaar of Baghdad so ruling out Ancestral Recall on the basis of monetary cost isn't really sensible.
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Considering that draining for infinite damage isn't at all necessary in Vintage, how is having an unrestricted kill card in any way superior to the more resilient methods that have been discussed over the entire course of this thread?
not to mention the whole ok "misdirection" i win you lose have a nice day
atleast with the ambassdor you cant do that
I'm just curious where you can get an Ancestral Recall for $140.
You can't.. Well, you can't get a tournament playable Recall for that cheap.. I don't think VerzenChaos knows how much each piece of power tends to go for, or he is confusing Ancestral Recall with something like... Timetwister...
You do understand that the deck wins by reanimating Eternal Witness during the Dragon loop, thereby allowing you to recur Ancestral Recall once for every iteration of the loop, right? It's not like you're only playing Ancestral Recall twice in a game. Once you've properly started the loop, it doesn't matter whether you recur Ancestral Recall and draw 3 land because you're just playing the Recall again in 3 seconds.
Also, this is a thread for a competitive Vintage deck, and the reality of competitive Vintage is that expensive cards get played. The deck already demands 4xBazaar of Baghdad so ruling out Ancestral Recall on the basis of monetary cost isn't really sensible.
By the time you have the worldgorger combo out, shouldn't you have already won the game? Why all this other johnny crap that will clutter up your deck?
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By the time you have the worldgorger combo out, shouldn't you have already won the game?
That would be just peachy if Animate Dead + Worldgorger Dragon actually won you the game by itself. It doesn't. You have to have something else in the deck to win. Presumably the deck creates Blue mana and likes drawing, so it should already have one Ancestral Recall in the deck. At that point you're just adding one or two additional cards for the Witnesses.
Why all this other johnny crap that will clutter up your deck?
Please explain why this combo which is resilient and gets the cards you need in your hand to deal with opposing threats qualifies as "johnny crap."
Your analysis of win conditions is extremely poor.
The fact of the matter is that the witness kill requires the LEAST amount of "johnny crap".
Recall is NOT johnny crap, just going to preface my statements with that. If you think that it is, I don't think I can help you, but I can definitively state that recall is probably the actual best card in the game, fighting with lotus perhaps for that slot.
Witness, therefor, is the most efficient kill mechanism. You previously analyzed a series of win conditions, criticizing them all on insufficiencies (may of which are misappropriated, there are no wrath effects in vintage, etc). The witness kill dodges all of those, AND is the most useful on its own.
In case you don't know how the witness kill operates: Initiate Dragon Loop, generating infinite mana and cycling through your deck with bazaar to get the witness in your yard. With witness in the yard, you change the animate target to witness, and then have witness recur another animation spell. Use this animation spell to restart the dragon loop. You may no return every card in your graveyard to your hand. With bazaar, this means you can cast every spell in your deck infinite times. Furthermore, you back this up with infinite mana, infinite counters, infinite turns, and infinite discard (to pull these last two off some further manipulation is required). It is simple too see how this works, as you will now proceed to deck your opponent with infinite recalls.
What are they going to do, misdirect your INFINITE recalls? I think you may not have understood how the win operated. Also, don't walk into misdirection, its easy enough not to be stupid in this respect. People running misdirection should not be a deterrent from playing recall even on its own right, and in this deck where it functions as part of a kill, there is no reason not to run it.
However, this kill requires only a single "johnny crap" card, which is leagues away better from a drain life (which could just get misdirected or forced, or even discarded and you're dead in the watter). Being a creature means it works in hand or in yard, which means you can use bazaar during the combo. Furthermore, the combo accomplishes far more ways of winning and disrupts most resistance (angel, etc).
There are also other kills you failed to mention:
Shivan Hellkite, Caller of the Claw, Wish, to name a few.
Drain Life is not a valid kill card because it is a Sorcery, not an Instant. Yes, you can use Witness or another creature to stop the loop, but using Witness makes Drain Life unnecessarily redundant. Plus, if RtR or Intuition is used to deposit a WGD into the graveyard, you won't have a chance to stop the loop and cast a Sorcery anyways.
If Platinum Angel is an issue in your local meta, there are two good options in dealing with it - either run a bounce spell and go off with Witness (like Binary mentioned) or run a 5 color build and use Shivan Hellkite as the kill card. Hellkite is already a nice alternate animate target, and 5 colors support the transformation into Oath nicely.
I've just bought a set of Bazaars and I'm wondering how this deck is faring with all the hate in the format or if Flash is just the more powerful raw combo, If possible I'd love an updated list if any are doing well. TY all
The deck is almost completely absent from competitive play. For it to pick up popularity again I think some of the stronger WGD players have to pick the deck back up again and demonstrate its viability for it to catch on with other players.
Raw power-wise, it is weaker than Flash combo, but is likely a tiny bit more resilient.
As for an updated list, I don't see why the old WGDX list cannot do well in the meta, so long as it is well armed to deal with post SB Leylines/Extirpates/Needles. The transformational SB addresses some of these cards already.
on the matter of ancestreal recall, you cant get one for 140, but on ebayi have ssen them for as low as 190-200. also does anyone have a list for wolrdgorger
honestly fury i think that time walk isnt needed in dragon and you sideboard is pretty all over the place but if it gets the job done and i have never tested that board so i dont really know how good it is
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You do understand that the deck wins by reanimating Eternal Witness during the Dragon loop, thereby allowing you to recur Ancestral Recall once for every iteration of the loop, right? It's not like you're only playing Ancestral Recall twice in a game. Once you've properly started the loop, it doesn't matter whether you recur Ancestral Recall and draw 3 land because you're just playing the Recall again in 3 seconds.
Also, this is a thread for a competitive Vintage deck, and the reality of competitive Vintage is that expensive cards get played. The deck already demands 4xBazaar of Baghdad so ruling out Ancestral Recall on the basis of monetary cost isn't really sensible.
not to mention the whole ok "misdirection" i win you lose have a nice day
atleast with the ambassdor you cant do that
You can't.. Well, you can't get a tournament playable Recall for that cheap.. I don't think VerzenChaos knows how much each piece of power tends to go for, or he is confusing Ancestral Recall with something like... Timetwister...
I don't really know.
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By the time you have the worldgorger combo out, shouldn't you have already won the game? Why all this other johnny crap that will clutter up your deck?
That would be just peachy if Animate Dead + Worldgorger Dragon actually won you the game by itself. It doesn't. You have to have something else in the deck to win. Presumably the deck creates Blue mana and likes drawing, so it should already have one Ancestral Recall in the deck. At that point you're just adding one or two additional cards for the Witnesses.
Please explain why this combo which is resilient and gets the cards you need in your hand to deal with opposing threats qualifies as "johnny crap."
The fact of the matter is that the witness kill requires the LEAST amount of "johnny crap".
Recall is NOT johnny crap, just going to preface my statements with that. If you think that it is, I don't think I can help you, but I can definitively state that recall is probably the actual best card in the game, fighting with lotus perhaps for that slot.
Witness, therefor, is the most efficient kill mechanism. You previously analyzed a series of win conditions, criticizing them all on insufficiencies (may of which are misappropriated, there are no wrath effects in vintage, etc). The witness kill dodges all of those, AND is the most useful on its own.
In case you don't know how the witness kill operates: Initiate Dragon Loop, generating infinite mana and cycling through your deck with bazaar to get the witness in your yard. With witness in the yard, you change the animate target to witness, and then have witness recur another animation spell. Use this animation spell to restart the dragon loop. You may no return every card in your graveyard to your hand. With bazaar, this means you can cast every spell in your deck infinite times. Furthermore, you back this up with infinite mana, infinite counters, infinite turns, and infinite discard (to pull these last two off some further manipulation is required). It is simple too see how this works, as you will now proceed to deck your opponent with infinite recalls.
What are they going to do, misdirect your INFINITE recalls? I think you may not have understood how the win operated. Also, don't walk into misdirection, its easy enough not to be stupid in this respect. People running misdirection should not be a deterrent from playing recall even on its own right, and in this deck where it functions as part of a kill, there is no reason not to run it.
However, this kill requires only a single "johnny crap" card, which is leagues away better from a drain life (which could just get misdirected or forced, or even discarded and you're dead in the watter). Being a creature means it works in hand or in yard, which means you can use bazaar during the combo. Furthermore, the combo accomplishes far more ways of winning and disrupts most resistance (angel, etc).
There are also other kills you failed to mention:
Shivan Hellkite, Caller of the Claw, Wish, to name a few.
If Platinum Angel is an issue in your local meta, there are two good options in dealing with it - either run a bounce spell and go off with Witness (like Binary mentioned) or run a 5 color build and use Shivan Hellkite as the kill card. Hellkite is already a nice alternate animate target, and 5 colors support the transformation into Oath nicely.
Raw power-wise, it is weaker than Flash combo, but is likely a tiny bit more resilient.
As for an updated list, I don't see why the old WGDX list cannot do well in the meta, so long as it is well armed to deal with post SB Leylines/Extirpates/Needles. The transformational SB addresses some of these cards already.