You Animate the Dragon,Cycle through ur deck,Animate the Witness,Bring an Animate Spell back to ur hand,Pay with ur open land,Animate the Dragon,
That gives your opponent two opportunities to cast a counter to stop your combo, instead of the one opportunity with a "conventional" Laquatus or Sliver Queen kill.
Bring everything to ur hand,Play Cunning Wish for Laquatus
How are you getting a creature with Cunning Wish, exactly?
Mill away til the Blessings then hit the Blessings with one of ur spells since u have all of the them in ur hand
With what spells would you be "hitting" them exactly? I'm guessing you're talking about something like Coffin Purge, but that's giving the opponent YET ANOTHER window to counter a spell and shut you down.
It honestly seems like way too much work (and way too much dilution of the maindeck) to get around a card that's only seen in one major archetype.
Sigh, what this deck really needs is a creature with an ability like "5: Target player draws a card."
Binary, basically ur right.Its way to much work for the Witness to work.
Please forget the Cunning Wish comment,just a mental breakdown on my part.
Using A.Recall over and over again is just like using Stroke just giving weapons to use.
Shivan Hellkite is so good right now... fries Platinum Angel and allows you to run red for more Workshop hate... Actually, Five Color Dragon with Orchards is also really good right now.
Yea..shivan might work instead of sliver queen, if anyone also runs it. If it could win you the game instead of attacking over and over..it would be a lot better.
Shivan Hellkite is so good right now... fries Platinum Angel and allows you to run red for more Workshop hate... Actually, Five Color Dragon with Orchards is also really good right now.
What about Kumano, Master Yamabushi? It has the same direct damage ability as well as the ability to deal with creatures in play... permanently. Not to mention it has a cheaper CC in case you would need to hardcast.
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Both are still...to me, a waste of space, atleast mainboard. Sideboarding is understandable I suppose. You can fit oxidize in the sidboard though..so still..it's a waste of space.
Most of the Dragon builds I've seen can usually afford to sacrifice a single card slot to an alternate kill condition.
Oath is definitely seeing a resurgence in play since the printing of Forbidden Orchard... I personally don't consider the addition of something like Sliver Queen or Kumano as a "waste" if it gives me a legitimate chance to win a Game 1 against a deck that it basically auto-loses.
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Most of the Dragon builds I've seen can usually afford to sacrifice a single card slot to an alternate kill condition.
Oath is definitely seeing a resurgence in play since the printing of Forbidden Orchard... I personally don't consider the addition of something like Sliver Queen or Kumano as a "waste" if it gives me a legitimate chance to win a Game 1 against a deck that it basically auto-loses.
Altough I never said queen was a waste. That is your alternate kill against oath since laquatus might not do it because of blessing :). Sideboarding 1 queen and 1 hellkite or yamabushi is fine. Just not mainboard. MB it's a waste of space.
I find Oath & U/W Landstill auto losts for my Spoils Dragon build.Oath's counters never let anything through then the Blessings stop Laquatus in its track then the Ground Seals they sb in makes the combo untargetable.U/W's Mages kills key cards then the Swords of Plowshare just ruins the combo and its just a big mess for me to deal with.
Altough I never said queen was a waste. That is your alternate kill against oath since laquatus might not do it because of blessing :). Sideboarding 1 queen and 1 hellkite or yamabushi is fine. Just not mainboard. MB it's a waste of space.
I guess there are two questions here.
1)If it's a waste of space MD, what's the better use for that one card slot?
2)Are you confident enough in the deck's ability to win games 2 and 3 against Oath that you're willing to basically concede Game 1?
The problem I have is that I can't immediately see anything that could go in that card slot that would significantly help enough other matchups to make it worth conceding game 1 to a deck with 12+ counterspells.
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Well I dont see a lot of oath except the one im playing..so I guess then it becomes a meta game thing. If it was some kind of hate against workshop+trini decks..I would understand, there's far more of those than oath right now. I'll admit oath is one of the few that holds its own against those decks...along with dragon I would say.
On topic. If want to fill a slot than why not eternal witness. It works along side the dragon. You can kill them with that + time walk or ancestrall recall or anything to that effect.
Forgive my ignorance, but why don't you just searing touch your opponent into oblivion?
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Because Searing Touch is crap and you aren't using red mana beyond Mox Ruby.
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Why not use Eternal Witnes?
Infinite counters + Ancestrals = Good times.
Only works in bazaar builds, thoug, but if you aren't running bazaars, well, then your probably not going to do too well no matter what you use.
Hellkite can probably be ran maindeck now considering the Oath heavy metagame. Running more red/multi colored mana sources could probably be done with out reducing the consistancy very much.
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"But then are we most in order when we are most out of order."-Jack Cade
"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die."
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I agree herohamemer. i rather go with Kumano, master yamabushi those do to the fact that you can hard cast it. I run forbidden orchard in the deck and they give me red when i need it. I was thinking those could one use a transformer side board with this deck? Could you turn it into a storm or even an oath based deck after side boarding? Throwing your opponent for a loop when they sided in dragon hate?
I have a friend that runs a transformer board that turns his dragon into oath. It is fairly effective aggainst mass hate,however it gives you a fairly sub par oath deck because the sideboard can only have 15 cards, some random stuff from dragon will still be sitting around in your oath deck.
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"But then are we most in order when we are most out of order."-Jack Cade
"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die."
- H.P. Lovecraft
Could you explain why Hellkite or Kumano aren't inferior to the witness win? It seems Eternal Witness is not only easier to cast from hand, and performing a fairly powerful ablity early game, but is also a safer win, as a well timed StP doesn't burn you to death.
Mayb I'm missing something, but for now I like to stick with Eternal Witness as a vicotry condition.
the hellkite/ Kumano kill work well againist Platinum Angel. It burns out the angel, then you can go for the dome. I like Kumano because its cast able and can act like a Masticore when needed. The witness is nice, and i am thinking about running it in place of Ambassador Lagautas kill since more people are running Gaea's Blessing. The kills you choose realy depend on your meta game.
The only reason Kite is ever better than Kumano is when you just reanimate a fatty and beat. Flying is some good I hear. Especially if you run Forbidden Orchard like someone said they did.
I wouldn't say it makes an impact on Dragons like it would on Madness.Dragons is already a tight deck and trying to fit Ideas Unbound will hurt the mana base with its UU casting cost.
Ideas Unbound is a better Careful Study and is Careful Study used in Dragons?
That gives your opponent two opportunities to cast a counter to stop your combo, instead of the one opportunity with a "conventional" Laquatus or Sliver Queen kill.
How are you getting a creature with Cunning Wish, exactly?
With what spells would you be "hitting" them exactly? I'm guessing you're talking about something like Coffin Purge, but that's giving the opponent YET ANOTHER window to counter a spell and shut you down.
It honestly seems like way too much work (and way too much dilution of the maindeck) to get around a card that's only seen in one major archetype.
Sigh, what this deck really needs is a creature with an ability like "5: Target player draws a card."
Please forget the Cunning Wish comment,just a mental breakdown on my part.
Using A.Recall over and over again is just like using Stroke just giving weapons to use.
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What about Kumano, Master Yamabushi? It has the same direct damage ability as well as the ability to deal with creatures in play... permanently. Not to mention it has a cheaper CC in case you would need to hardcast.
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Oath is definitely seeing a resurgence in play since the printing of Forbidden Orchard... I personally don't consider the addition of something like Sliver Queen or Kumano as a "waste" if it gives me a legitimate chance to win a Game 1 against a deck that it basically auto-loses.
Altough I never said queen was a waste. That is your alternate kill against oath since laquatus might not do it because of blessing :). Sideboarding 1 queen and 1 hellkite or yamabushi is fine. Just not mainboard. MB it's a waste of space.
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I guess there are two questions here.
1)If it's a waste of space MD, what's the better use for that one card slot?
2)Are you confident enough in the deck's ability to win games 2 and 3 against Oath that you're willing to basically concede Game 1?
The problem I have is that I can't immediately see anything that could go in that card slot that would significantly help enough other matchups to make it worth conceding game 1 to a deck with 12+ counterspells.
On topic. If want to fill a slot than why not eternal witness. It works along side the dragon. You can kill them with that + time walk or ancestrall recall or anything to that effect.
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But it doesn't, which is why it has to run the strange win conditions that it does.
Infinite counters + Ancestrals = Good times.
Only works in bazaar builds, thoug, but if you aren't running bazaars, well, then your probably not going to do too well no matter what you use.
So far i have swaped the bazaar for compulsion and intution for burried alive.
thnx for the help
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"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die."
- H.P. Lovecraft
"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die."
- H.P. Lovecraft
Mayb I'm missing something, but for now I like to stick with Eternal Witness as a vicotry condition.
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how about murmurs from beyond could it see play?
Ideas Unbound is a better Careful Study and is Careful Study used in Dragons?
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