SO is Ideas Unbound going to make an impact on dragon? Its a draw and discard set up it's not an instant (to bad that would be awsome).
I don't see it coming in for three reasons.
1)You can't actually discard the Dragon you draw until the end step, meaning you don't win that turn unless you use Necromancy. Otherwise you give your opponent another turn to draw an answer to your enchantment.
2)The deck really has problems getting UU.
3)You can't find your win condition during the Dragon loop with it like you can with Bazaar of Baghdad or Compulsion.
how about murmurs from beyond could it see play?
While the card effect isn't horrible, your opponent will almost always put the Dragon in your hand and the enchantment in your graveyard, which is the inverse of what you want to happen. I don't see it coming in over Intuition, certainly.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
1)No Necromancy. This card gives the deck the power to win at instant speed, which is HUGE against combo and control, where you can wait until they tap out on your end step to play a draw spell, then win in response. Also, without Necromancy, a Chalice of the Void X=2 means you have to swing with your creatures instead of comboing for a win, and that's not a good position for this deck.
2)No protection. There are no FoW's, not even Duress here... you're really sacrificing a lot of stability for the raw speed of cards like Entomb or Buried Alive.
I would try to fit two Necromancy into the deck, and considering your very low count of blue cards I would try to find room for Duress to help clear the way.
Also, I really would replace Hellkite with Kumano, Master Yamabushi for all the reason detailed in this thread.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
This deck was built for one reason and one reason alone SPEED. It has as superb chance of winning on turn 1. It entirely throws caution to the wind. Necromancy is great for dealing with muc and various prison decks, but it slows me the hell down. And yes I do run duress, just only in my SB. As for FOW it's really not very good in dragon decks. Dragon decks have a limited ammount of blue spells for one thing, and often whatever it is you use with it will end up biting you in the ass somewhere down the road. Hellkite>Kumano simply because it isn't very difficult to hardcast a hellkite or worldgorger if my combo gets disrupted somehow, and I'd rather have him on my side. That's all for now.
In my experience, Vintage combo decks that sacrifice all protection for speed ultimately don't work. There are just too many things your opponent can do to put a damper on your plans.
A first turn goldfish is great, but six of my teammates took a deck that goldfished turn 1 over 50% of the time to a SCG tournament and only one of them made the top 8 because there was nothing they could do to stop their opponents from a well-timed Duress, Force of Will, or Chalice of the Void.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
Ajora,
If your deck is so fast why do you even need to run Squee for? I've been playing Dragons long enough to know the useage of Bazaar+Squee but why even run them if can add better? The best you can get out of it is 3 extra cards on turn 2 but then Land clots up your hand due to one land per turn rule if you pull land.
I like running Sunthering Titan as my side kill,seen alot Eternal Witness been ran in Dragons but the little tramp dies to easy.Buried Alives & Intuitions is too much unless its working.Lion's Eye Diamond, Elvish Spirit Guide, Lotus Pedal & Mana Crypt/Vault also help with fast mana.
I run a Spoils Dragons build which is very consistent + fast.Binary mention problems and they're alot after game 1 of 3.
Ajora,
If your deck is so fast why do you even need to run Squee for? I've been playing Dragons long enough to know the useage of Bazaar+Squee but why even run them if can add better? The best you can get out of it is 3 extra cards on turn 2 but then Land clots up your hand due to one land per turn rule if you pull land.
Dog I'm not even sure if you're truly aware of what bazaar/squee does for the deck. Alright for one thing it speeds it the HELL UP, especially considering that there's almost always going to be something in your hand you don't need, second it makes turn 1 kills happen MUCH more frequently because it
a) gets a dragon in the graveyard
b) is used as a sub kill mechanic if you don't have your kill mechanic in the grave
Dog I'm not even sure if you're truly aware of what bazaar/squee does for the deck. Alright for one thing it speeds it the HELL UP, especially considering that there's almost always going to be something in your hand you don't need, second it makes turn 1 kills happen MUCH more frequently because it
a) gets a dragon in the graveyard
b) is used as a sub kill mechanic if you don't have your kill mechanic in the grave
This is completely illogical. You're talking about Bazaar/Squee as if they're the same thing, but they exist in the deck for two different reasons.
Bazaar is there to accelerate your win, yes.
But Squee does NOT get a Dragon into your graveyard any faster on turn 1 than, well, any other tournament-legal card.
Squee doesn't have a bloody thing to do with improving your chances of a turn 1 kill. The goal is to use Squee over multiple turns to accumulate multiple animating enchantments in your hand so you'll have more enchantments to play in one turn than the control deck has answers.
However, that's talking about playing the long game, which you don't seem particularly interested in.
SilentRemind's point still stands: If you're hellbent on the Turn 1 win, Squee does absolutely nothing for you.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
i wasn't talking about squee i was talking about the squee/bazaar combo, and in that aspect there is no easier way to get a dragon into the grave on turn one than by drawing into a bazaar. Entomb you say? Not likely, the card is restricted. Try again folks.
What good is the squee/bazaar combo if its game over on turn 1 50% of the time and 80% of the time on turn 2? Squee might even slow down your deck if your deck is that consistent and is 4 wasted slots.Buried Alive, I've only seen ran in Spoiled Dragons so your wasting more slots with them.
BUG Dragons and Most U/B Dragons rely on the squee/bazaar combo to get rid of hate cuz they know its going to take more than 2 turns to win and set the pieces.
BUG Dragons relys on X.Swarm and Necromancy to win the game but X.Swarm isn't easy to keep alive and this version is prolly the slowest/tightest of Dragons with prolly turn 4 win.U/B Dragons is in the 2 turn to 4 turn range for the win,Its open for Cunning Wishes,Counters and Bounce cards.Intuitions and Compulsion help in the graveyard department. Counters & Bounce cards are for the hate and Dragons has alot of hate in game 2 & 3 then in game 1.
Ajora,I ready didn't understand your question but it seems like your asking what is better then a Bazaar turn 1 to get a Dragon into the graveyard? Well from my point of view playing a Bazaar turn 1 isn't best due to Wasteland/StripMine.For the Full affect of Bazaar/Dragon you should be running 4 of each and not 4 Bazaars with 3 Dragons like your list on page 4.Buried Alive helps but can't get Bazaars that way if you needed one.I guess your right for once,Bazaar is best way to get a Dragon into the graveyard on turn 1.
I seem to have a way better decklist then you in winning on turn 1 50% of the time and 80% of the time on turn 2.
Why do you have only 1 way of winning turn 1 from how your decklist is setup?
Bazaar + Mox Jet + any other Mox
*Gotta have a Dragon and an Animate spell in hand for the win
i wasn't talking about squee i was talking about the squee/bazaar combo, and in that aspect there is no easier way to get a dragon into the grave on turn one than by drawing into a bazaar. Entomb you say? Not likely, the card is restricted. Try again folks.
You keep speaking of Squee and Bazaar as if they're inexorably linked, as if you have no choice but to include Squee in the deck if you play Bazaar.
Your entire goal with this version of the deck is a first turn win. Then why do you insist on keeping a creature that requires you to have a second turn to be anything other than an overcosted 1/1.
You keep skirting this issue. If you win first turn, why do you need Squee?
Most of the time any t1 deck isn't going to win on turn 1. If it can, great, but in most cases it won't. Squee/Bazaar are used in all tier 1 dragon decks. Part of the reason the deck can go off on turn one to begin with is due to the redundancy of combo pieces. You must admit that a card that reads: "Tap to draw 2 cards" is a pretty good deal.
Most of the time any t1 deck isn't going to win on turn 1. If it can, great, but in most cases it won't. Squee/Bazaar are used in all tier 1 dragon decks. Part of the reason the deck can go off on turn one to begin with is due to the redundancy of combo pieces. You must admit that a card that reads: "Tap to draw 2 cards" is a pretty good deal.
Your previous point about why you've forsaken the protection of counters / resist elements was for the "superb chance of turn 1 kill" and "speed"
Now you're saying that this is for turn 2+?
You honestly need to start making more sense and have more consistency in your claims. Right now, your posts contradict each other in every other sentences.
You've still yet to prove why Squee is a "must" in the deck. In fact, you went from "Squee helps turn 1 kill" to "Tap to draw 2 cards is a pretty good deal".
.........Ajora,Bazaar of Baghdad isn't used in all tier 1 Dragon deck for the Draw 2 ability.Dragons uses the brokenness of dumping 3 cards from your hand after you draw 2 .Bazaar of Baghdad would prolly never be used if Squee & the Dragon combo never exsisted.
To set things Squee + Bazaar of Baghdad combo should be used if you plan on going +2 turns,If not then Squee slows you down in comboing.
Most of the time any t1 deck isn't going to win on turn 1. If it can, great, but in most cases it won't.
But you said yourself the whole point of your build is to win on turn 1. Now you're insisting on diluting it by adding Squee.
Make up your mind. Either play a build that can adequately protect the combo with FoW or Duress, or play a build that goes for the turn 1 win. Don't say you're playing a build that goes for the turn 1 win and then dilute with cards that do nothing except improve the efficiency of your draw engine on turns 2+.
Squee/Bazaar are used in all tier 1 dragon decks.
I'm looking for a more solid reasoning here than "everyone else does it, so should I."
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
I've already explained why bazaar/squee works so well in this deck, and I've already made it clear that no deck wins most of the time on the first turn. I've also made it very clear that bazaar/squee HELPS turn 1 wins happen in the first place. There isn't anything much else for me to say here. Criticize me for not using necromancy instead.
"Bazaar of Baghdad would prolly never be used if Squee & the Dragon combo never exsisted."
Actually there are other vintage decks that use bazaar-_-
Ugh let me put it to you like this. What's better a deck that wins on turn 1 35% of the time and loses 65% of the time, or a deck that wins on turn 2-3 75% of the time and loses 25% of the time. It's basic math kids-_-
also made it very clear that bazaar/squee HELPS turn 1 wins happen in the first place.
No you haven't. Give a concrete, viable example.
Ugh let me put it to you like this. What's better a deck that wins on turn 1 35% of the time and loses 65% of the time, or a deck that wins on turn 2-3 75% of the time and loses 25% of the time. It's basic math kids-_-
According to you, the former.
This deck was built for one reason and one reason alone SPEED. It has as superb chance of winning on turn 1. It entirely throws caution to the wind.
Since you're unwilling to run a 3cc spell on the grounds of slowing you down, this means you consider anything over turn 2 a loss.
But you've constantly contradicted yourself in this thread so I don't know what to believe.
I've already explained why bazaar/squee works so well in this deck
No, you really haven't. You've explained why Bazaar works well in the deck, which I haven't been arguing against. You have not explained how Squee works so well in a deck where your intent is to never have a second upkeep phase.
I've also made it very clear that bazaar/squee HELPS turn 1 wins happen in the first place.
Again, you haven't. If you're winning first turn, it doesn't make a bit of difference which three cards you discard to Bazaar as long as one of them is Worldgorger Dragon.
I am going to word this question as precisely as I can in hopes that you will actually give a straight answer this time.
How does a card enable a turn 1 win when its triggered ability requires you to have a turn 2?
Criticize me for not using necromancy instead.
I already did. It's a terrible choice.
What's better a deck that wins on turn 1 35% of the time and loses 65% of the time, or a deck that wins on turn 2-3 75% of the time and loses 25% of the time.
Seeing as how you have repeatedly stated that the goal of this deck is a turn 1 win, and you have sacrificed all of the protection and resiliency of your combo (traditionally considered a strength of Dragon in contrast to other combo decks) to that end, you certainly seem to think the former.
It seems you're missing the entire idea. As I've already stated due to the redundancy of combo pieces, dragon decks have various slots open used for various types of either combo pieces of possible disruption. And no Squee does not help turn 1 victories in the slightest, but even if I were to hypothetically sub in something else in it's place it wouldn't make too much difference anyways. Intuition, read the runes, necromancy in place of 4 squees would increase turn 1 victories by an incriment too small to even notice. And in a way yeah squee/bazaar are both fairly intertwined, like donate/illusions, and like peanut butter and jelly.
This deck was built for one reason and one reason alone SPEED. It has as superb chance of winning on turn 1. It entirely throws caution to the wind.
Ok I think the main issue here is that people are taking what I said earlier way too literally. I'm inately more concerned with my deck's overall performance, however I am also concious of the fact that I have reduced possible maindeck defences in substitution for speed and flash.
I'm being more so criticized here for abstract technicalities rather than my actual deck. Next thing I know people are going to question why I run entomb instead of veldraine of sengir. Let me ask you folks a question: Why wouldn't you run 4 bazaar/squee in any dragon deck?
Binary, I don't know why you are beating him up about Bazaar/Squee, when there are much better issues to beat him up about. For example, claiming his dragon deck is built for speed when there is *no* acceleration other than SoLoMoxen in there. Where's Ritual or ESG? Also, you could be criticizing him for running absolutely horrible cards like Read the Runes and Wheel of Fortune. Seriously, if you are trying to go for speed in a Dragon deck, you should be running a list similar to this:
4x Dragon
4x Animate
4x Dance
3x Necromancy
1x Ambassador
1x Caller of the Claw
I don't see it coming in for three reasons.
1)You can't actually discard the Dragon you draw until the end step, meaning you don't win that turn unless you use Necromancy. Otherwise you give your opponent another turn to draw an answer to your enchantment.
2)The deck really has problems getting UU.
3)You can't find your win condition during the Dragon loop with it like you can with Bazaar of Baghdad or Compulsion.
While the card effect isn't horrible, your opponent will almost always put the Dragon in your hand and the enchantment in your graveyard, which is the inverse of what you want to happen. I don't see it coming in over Intuition, certainly.
1 Island
2 Badlands
2 Swamp
2 Volcanic Island
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Shivan Hellkite
1 Ambassador Laquatus
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Entomb
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Wheel of Fortune
2 Read the Runes
3 Worldgorger Dragon
3 Intuition
4 Dance of the Dead
4 Animate Dead
4 Buried Alive
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
SB: 3 Rack and Ruin
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 4 Defense Grid
This folks is my Dragon deck. I think it speaks for itself.
1)No Necromancy. This card gives the deck the power to win at instant speed, which is HUGE against combo and control, where you can wait until they tap out on your end step to play a draw spell, then win in response. Also, without Necromancy, a Chalice of the Void X=2 means you have to swing with your creatures instead of comboing for a win, and that's not a good position for this deck.
2)No protection. There are no FoW's, not even Duress here... you're really sacrificing a lot of stability for the raw speed of cards like Entomb or Buried Alive.
I would try to fit two Necromancy into the deck, and considering your very low count of blue cards I would try to find room for Duress to help clear the way.
Also, I really would replace Hellkite with Kumano, Master Yamabushi for all the reason detailed in this thread.
A first turn goldfish is great, but six of my teammates took a deck that goldfished turn 1 over 50% of the time to a SCG tournament and only one of them made the top 8 because there was nothing they could do to stop their opponents from a well-timed Duress, Force of Will, or Chalice of the Void.
If your deck is so fast why do you even need to run Squee for? I've been playing Dragons long enough to know the useage of Bazaar+Squee but why even run them if can add better? The best you can get out of it is 3 extra cards on turn 2 but then Land clots up your hand due to one land per turn rule if you pull land.
I like running Sunthering Titan as my side kill,seen alot Eternal Witness been ran in Dragons but the little tramp dies to easy.Buried Alives & Intuitions is too much unless its working.Lion's Eye Diamond, Elvish Spirit Guide, Lotus Pedal & Mana Crypt/Vault also help with fast mana.
I run a Spoils Dragons build which is very consistent + fast.Binary mention problems and they're alot after game 1 of 3.
T1 Spoils Dragon Deck
T1 Illusions Donate Deck
Bonus Most pt.2
I wanted you for nothing more then hating you for what you were!
By Taking Back Sunday
Legacy - Full English Breakfast
Vintage - Dragon, Cerebral Assasin, Oath
Dog I'm not even sure if you're truly aware of what bazaar/squee does for the deck. Alright for one thing it speeds it the HELL UP, especially considering that there's almost always going to be something in your hand you don't need, second it makes turn 1 kills happen MUCH more frequently because it
a) gets a dragon in the graveyard
b) is used as a sub kill mechanic if you don't have your kill mechanic in the grave
This is completely illogical. You're talking about Bazaar/Squee as if they're the same thing, but they exist in the deck for two different reasons.
Bazaar is there to accelerate your win, yes.
But Squee does NOT get a Dragon into your graveyard any faster on turn 1 than, well, any other tournament-legal card.
Squee doesn't have a bloody thing to do with improving your chances of a turn 1 kill. The goal is to use Squee over multiple turns to accumulate multiple animating enchantments in your hand so you'll have more enchantments to play in one turn than the control deck has answers.
However, that's talking about playing the long game, which you don't seem particularly interested in.
SilentRemind's point still stands: If you're hellbent on the Turn 1 win, Squee does absolutely nothing for you.
BUG Dragons and Most U/B Dragons rely on the squee/bazaar combo to get rid of hate cuz they know its going to take more than 2 turns to win and set the pieces.
BUG Dragons relys on X.Swarm and Necromancy to win the game but X.Swarm isn't easy to keep alive and this version is prolly the slowest/tightest of Dragons with prolly turn 4 win.U/B Dragons is in the 2 turn to 4 turn range for the win,Its open for Cunning Wishes,Counters and Bounce cards.Intuitions and Compulsion help in the graveyard department. Counters & Bounce cards are for the hate and Dragons has alot of hate in game 2 & 3 then in game 1.
Ajora,I ready didn't understand your question but it seems like your asking what is better then a Bazaar turn 1 to get a Dragon into the graveyard? Well from my point of view playing a Bazaar turn 1 isn't best due to Wasteland/StripMine.For the Full affect of Bazaar/Dragon you should be running 4 of each and not 4 Bazaars with 3 Dragons like your list on page 4.Buried Alive helps but can't get Bazaars that way if you needed one.I guess your right for once,Bazaar is best way to get a Dragon into the graveyard on turn 1.
I seem to have a way better decklist then you in winning on turn 1 50% of the time and 80% of the time on turn 2.
Why do you have only 1 way of winning turn 1 from how your decklist is setup?
Bazaar + Mox Jet + any other Mox
*Gotta have a Dragon and an Animate spell in hand for the win
T1 Spoils Dragon Deck
T1 Illusions Donate Deck
Bonus Most pt.2
I wanted you for nothing more then hating you for what you were!
By Taking Back Sunday
You keep speaking of Squee and Bazaar as if they're inexorably linked, as if you have no choice but to include Squee in the deck if you play Bazaar.
Your entire goal with this version of the deck is a first turn win. Then why do you insist on keeping a creature that requires you to have a second turn to be anything other than an overcosted 1/1.
You keep skirting this issue. If you win first turn, why do you need Squee?
Your previous point about why you've forsaken the protection of counters / resist elements was for the "superb chance of turn 1 kill" and "speed"
Now you're saying that this is for turn 2+?
You honestly need to start making more sense and have more consistency in your claims. Right now, your posts contradict each other in every other sentences.
You've still yet to prove why Squee is a "must" in the deck. In fact, you went from "Squee helps turn 1 kill" to "Tap to draw 2 cards is a pretty good deal".
Are you trying to get into politics or something?
To set things Squee + Bazaar of Baghdad combo should be used if you plan on going +2 turns,If not then Squee slows you down in comboing.
T1 Spoils Dragon Deck
T1 Illusions Donate Deck
Bonus Most pt.2
I wanted you for nothing more then hating you for what you were!
By Taking Back Sunday
But you said yourself the whole point of your build is to win on turn 1. Now you're insisting on diluting it by adding Squee.
Make up your mind. Either play a build that can adequately protect the combo with FoW or Duress, or play a build that goes for the turn 1 win. Don't say you're playing a build that goes for the turn 1 win and then dilute with cards that do nothing except improve the efficiency of your draw engine on turns 2+.
I'm looking for a more solid reasoning here than "everyone else does it, so should I."
Actually there are other vintage decks that use bazaar-_-
Ugh let me put it to you like this. What's better a deck that wins on turn 1 35% of the time and loses 65% of the time, or a deck that wins on turn 2-3 75% of the time and loses 25% of the time. It's basic math kids-_-
No you haven't. Give a concrete, viable example.
According to you, the former.
Since you're unwilling to run a 3cc spell on the grounds of slowing you down, this means you consider anything over turn 2 a loss.
But you've constantly contradicted yourself in this thread so I don't know what to believe.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
No, you really haven't. You've explained why Bazaar works well in the deck, which I haven't been arguing against. You have not explained how Squee works so well in a deck where your intent is to never have a second upkeep phase.
Again, you haven't. If you're winning first turn, it doesn't make a bit of difference which three cards you discard to Bazaar as long as one of them is Worldgorger Dragon.
I am going to word this question as precisely as I can in hopes that you will actually give a straight answer this time.
How does a card enable a turn 1 win when its triggered ability requires you to have a turn 2?
I already did. It's a terrible choice.
Seeing as how you have repeatedly stated that the goal of this deck is a turn 1 win, and you have sacrificed all of the protection and resiliency of your combo (traditionally considered a strength of Dragon in contrast to other combo decks) to that end, you certainly seem to think the former.
I'm 27, thanks.
Ok I think the main issue here is that people are taking what I said earlier way too literally. I'm inately more concerned with my deck's overall performance, however I am also concious of the fact that I have reduced possible maindeck defences in substitution for speed and flash.
I'm being more so criticized here for abstract technicalities rather than my actual deck. Next thing I know people are going to question why I run entomb instead of veldraine of sengir. Let me ask you folks a question: Why wouldn't you run 4 bazaar/squee in any dragon deck?
You know, I had a really long response to this, but I think it is best answered with what you said in this very thread:
If you want to call it a technicality, that's fine. I call it not being able to make a cohesive argument.
Until you have a cohesive argument, I think I'll spend my time on other threads.
4x Dragon
4x Animate
4x Dance
3x Necromancy
1x Ambassador
1x Caller of the Claw
4x Bazaar
4x Squee
1x Entomb
3x Buried Alive
1x DT
1x VT
1x Consultation
2x Spoils
4x Xantid Swarm
4x Ritual
3x ESG
1x Lotus
1x Jet
1x Emerald
1x Crypt
1x Petal
4x Delta
4x Bayou
2x Swamp