Using Demonic consultation/spoils of the vault is a disaster waiting to happen. It's all too easy to have the misfortune of removing a much needed laquatus from the game. Second of all, where's pernicious deed? If you're running green why wouldn't you take advantage of the card? Dark ritual I have found to be of very little use in this deck. Moxen mana acceleration is usually more than enough, and in most cases players have more mana on the board than they need before they actually go off. Even budget dragon decks without moxen run perfectlly fine without any rituals. And you should know that read the runes is magnificent in this deck. It clears up anything clogging up my hand at instant speed, sets up a dragon in the grave, and can mill my entire library if it's in my hand. Wheel of fortune probablly isn't one of the better choices seeing as it's a complete hit or miss card, but in the card's defence it can allow for wins in the most seemingly desperate scenarios. Unless you are otherwise disrupted you're almost garanteed to win either on the turn you cast it or on the turn afterwards. And finally there are infinitely better kill cards than caller of the claw, it leaves you vulnerable for an entire turn thus forcing you to deal with Balance or Wrath of god the following turn. It was folly of me to of praised the virtues of speed as much as I did earlier, my doing so caused a dominio effect that filled this entire thread up with pointless muck. It's about time we as players do what's best for the dragons, not our egos.
First of all, Dragon "isn't so good people hate it". It gets "splash hate". This means that hate for other decks work against it, too. Tormod's crypt is a problem, but so is any good spell that can kill enchantments (naturalize, disenchant, seal of cleansing) or kill creatures (Swords to plowshares). If you're worried about Tormod's, then consider null rod instead, since it hoses many more things other than Tormod's. Or concentrate on artifact removal (since an opposing Pithing Needle will also hose the Bazaars).
Yeah, it placed 1st in France... but I've always found the european meta and tournament reports a bit odd. There will be tournaments where the top 8 would be filled with goblin sligh with maindecked swords to plowshares, sui black, or elf land destruction, or decks that have 53 cards with 17 card sideboards. When discussing the "usual" deck builds I tend to shy away from them because I can't explain certain deck building decisions they make.
Yeah, dragon is decent. It always has a surprise/speed factor going for it. Its also very resilient against most control decks, largely due to the massive draw generated by bazaars and squee. Cheap? Hell no. Aside from the usual power cards you also need bazaars. The last time I checked they were going for something like $150. I can build a storm-based deck or control slaver for less money/proxies than I would a fully powered dragon deck.
After borowing a friends dragon deck some time ago, I have been meaning to build this deck. Problem is, I don't have power. I have one copy of Bizzaar and can easily get Squees and the entire rest of the deck. BTW-I have most of the non-power type one staples like sol ring, lotus petal(not a staple, but its cheap and really good), FOW, tormod's crypt, etc. Could someone please post a decklist I could use?
BTW-I will be playing proxy and non proxy tourneys, so I would like a build that can run with, or without power.
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"But then are we most in order when we are most out of order."-Jack Cade
"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die."
- H.P. Lovecraft
If you only have one Bazaar, then I would highly suggest Compulsion as a functionally similar card. (It can find your win condition after starting the Dragon loop.)
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If you don't have 4 bazaars, or cannot proxy them, do not play dragon. It's pretty simple actually. Dragon is barely viable, because of random SB cards that completely ruin you like Seal of Cleansing, and Ground Seal. If either of these resolve you cannot win outside of animating your win condition and attacking with it. Not only do you have to deal with these cards, but also tormod's crypt, phyrexian furnace, coffin purge, swords to plowshares, blue elemental blast, stifle, even disenchant or naturalize. Without a fully powered, well prepared build of dragon, and absolutley flawless play, you will not be able to win with it.
Dragon can sometimes surprise an unprepared meta-game and steal victories, but everyone already has SB cards meant for other match-ups, that completely hose it. That is why you should not be running dragon, and to run a sub-optimal dragon list, is just plain foolish. When the best possible and most resilient build is getting hosed, what makes you think that an under-powered build is viable?
Maybe my metagame is a little stronger than some, but unless you are playing through a field of unpowered decks, dragon should not be near the top of your list of "decks to beat."
The only viable budget deck in vintage is fish. It is unfortunate, but true. Nothing else built on a budget, can compete with the tempo provided by moxen, workshops, and mana drain. These cards are central to the best decks in the format for a reason. A workshop deck routinely has between 2 and 4 mana on turn one to drop threats with, and a mana drain deck fuels it's big bombs and draw engine off of the mana it gains from stopping it's opponent. Fish competes by using chalice of the void dropped at zero counters to stop moxen, wasteland to stop workshop, and aether vials to work around mana drain. Though this is a simplified example, I think the point has been made.
Dragon can win through hate, with MD pernicious deed. However it just isn't worth playing an archtype that will face so much collateral disruption.
It is quite consistant, and can win against decks that strom based combo gets ruined by, like stax. Dragon however doesn't lose to specific decks; it loses to specific cards.
As long as gifts, stax, oath, and control slaver are played, and tinker for darksteel colossus is in every deck, cards like swords to plowshares, seal of cleansing, tormod's crypt, phyrexian furnace, and coffin purge will be either main decked or in the sideboards of everything you could play against. Any one of these cards can beat you, so you need an insane amount of answers to play it and win. Maybe if you MD 4 duress, 3 xantid swarm, and 3 pernicious deed you would stand a chance. Something like this.
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Duress
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Worldgorger Dragon
4 Animate Dead
3 Necromancy
3 Intuition
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Verdant Force
SIDEBOARD
3 Pithing Needle (mainly for wasteland)
3 Sundering Titan (mainly for control decks packing multiple dual lands)
3 Chalice of the Void (storm combo)
3 Null Rod (to stop phyrexian furnace and tormod's crypt)
3 In the Eye of Chaos (to combat gifts ungiven)
I am purely speculating here, but this may be what you're looking for. I wouldn't play it none-the-less.
While Ben Kowal's list from SCG is quite good, you need to keep in mind that Ben is an exellent player with a great deal of experience playing with and against this deck. He took it to the top because of his skill, some luck, and a metagame that was unprepared to face it. The list I proposed was not as objectively strong as his, but it was made to deal with the hate that you are likely to face. Take your pick, but don't expect the same results. Look at where other dragon decks have placed in SCG tournaments.
Duress works much better than fow in this deck. For one thing it automatically nulls your opponent's best combo/disruption card, and allows you to see if it's safe to go off. Fow usually needs at least 15 other blue spells to be of any use in this deck. Also drop your compulsions entirely, with 4 bazaars you'll hardly need them. 4 Worldgorgers is playable, but I find 3 to be the perfect number (some use 2). Also, where's the sol ring? More importantly where's Laquatus?? You also need entomb, burried alive, vampiric tutor, and demonic tutor. Perhaps I'm wrong but I can't really see Eternal witness or verdant force being of much help. Cut at least 2 lim dul's vaults (1 is fine, but i personally never got much use from it). Also after much experimenting I've found 3 dance of the deads, 3 animate deads, and 2 necromancys to be the proper number of animate spells. If defence is your main concern then maindecking 4 duress, perhaps 2 xantid swarms (2 in the sb), and 3 main decked deeds would probablly be wise.
You do not need laquatus with eternal witness. Animate dragon, and mill yourself with bazaar until eternal witness and verdant force get dumped into the GY. switch your animate spell to the witness and get a necromancy back in your hand with witness's ability. Aniamate the dragon again with necromancy, and bounce the witness in and out of play bringing back ancestral recall over and over and casting it at instant speed each time your lands come back into play to deck your opponent. Aternately, you can get another necromancy, and a time walk back with witness, and end your first loop by animating a verdant force. Then take a time walk turn, swing with verdant and a token, and animate your dragon again to bounce time walk back to your hand. Repeat untill your psuedo-infinate time walks, verdant force, and ever accumulating saproling tokens bring home the victory.
@ Forced Will
The latest dragon list you've found is worse than the first one. pernicious deed is the way to go. Remember dragon creates infinate mana so you can destroy anything they play, with it. You don't want to scoop to platinum angel.
And that's precisely why Shivan Hellkite is such a great win condition. As for stifle, you can run it if you want. I used to run 2 in my SB but never got too much use out of it.
And that's precisely why Shivan Hellkite is such a great win condition. As for stifle, you can run it if you want. I used to run 2 in my SB but never got too much use out of it.
No. Hellkite is a bad win condition because it requires you to screw up your manabase and add in an entirely unnecessary and mostly useless color (red).
@nastynate
Witness + Trike is vastly superior as a win condition than Witness + Verdant. It also takes care of Plats so you don't have to worry when you side out your Deeds.
In my experience, while Kumano is definitely a better win than Shivan Hellkite, both cause problems for the mana base.
As for Memnarch, the problem with it is that it's a "win a couple of turns from now" card, not a "win this turn" card like the Eternal Witness/Ancestral combo is, and not even a "win on opponent's next upkeep" card like Laquatus.
You need access to at least one other win condition because if you do go off first turn, just pulling out Memnarch won't do anything, and combo can still slap you in the face before you can beat down for the win.
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Dragon is very overrated here at Salvation. Teh deck is good yes but it's Tier 2. You could play a much much better deck in the form of Fish, Goblins and Mana Drain Control decks.
Dragon is currently one of the top 8 best decks overall in vintage. While Fish variants, FCG, Stax, and mana drain control decks are currently a bit stronger I wouldn't place it too far behind. More so than any other T1 deck at the moment it has a major surprise element and can defeat pretty much anything on turn 1.
OMG! Give the deck a rest...it isn't that good. When it was, the other decks weren't as good as they are now. I have already posted an answer to every question you have asked, let dragon die already. It rolls over to any hate played against it. It isn't that fast as far as combo goes, and it was never a dominant archtype. It isn't going to be either.
Hey i was the one that voted for this thead to be closed in the first place. Besides I'm... hmm^_^ Like it or hate it no matter how weak the deck gets due to current initial top deck hatred, it will continuously have a unique surprise factor no matter what changes or restrictions happen involving the deck period. I still need to come across some breed of chocolate chip cookie within my domain. Uhh yeah Dragon is perhaps about the 6 best deck overall in vintage at this moment.
Don't double post either.
Uhh yeah Dragon is perhaps about the 6 best deck overall in vintage at this moment.
I would digress, it is most definitely not one of the 6 best decks in the format.
-Lance
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What then in your opinion(s) are the best decks currently....Please dont say UbaStax, Stax, CronStax as 3, Stax is one deck type...
Ill give you a small hint...fish and goblins arent on that list (you can argue fish if you want, but you are wrong, fish is a meta deck and a meta deck only forever...)
If you underestimate dragon you will lose to it until you stop underestimating it...
While the tourneys listed are fine and all, they are hardly conclusive...Dragon has placed top 8 at several SCG tournies, It top 8s on the west coast and in Europe quite often as well....In terms of combo right now though id say its your best bet....
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http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=12531
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Yeah, dragon is decent. It always has a surprise/speed factor going for it. Its also very resilient against most control decks, largely due to the massive draw generated by bazaars and squee. Cheap? Hell no. Aside from the usual power cards you also need bazaars. The last time I checked they were going for something like $150. I can build a storm-based deck or control slaver for less money/proxies than I would a fully powered dragon deck.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
BTW-I will be playing proxy and non proxy tourneys, so I would like a build that can run with, or without power.
"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die."
- H.P. Lovecraft
Dragon can sometimes surprise an unprepared meta-game and steal victories, but everyone already has SB cards meant for other match-ups, that completely hose it. That is why you should not be running dragon, and to run a sub-optimal dragon list, is just plain foolish. When the best possible and most resilient build is getting hosed, what makes you think that an under-powered build is viable?
Maybe my metagame is a little stronger than some, but unless you are playing through a field of unpowered decks, dragon should not be near the top of your list of "decks to beat."
The only viable budget deck in vintage is fish. It is unfortunate, but true. Nothing else built on a budget, can compete with the tempo provided by moxen, workshops, and mana drain. These cards are central to the best decks in the format for a reason. A workshop deck routinely has between 2 and 4 mana on turn one to drop threats with, and a mana drain deck fuels it's big bombs and draw engine off of the mana it gains from stopping it's opponent. Fish competes by using chalice of the void dropped at zero counters to stop moxen, wasteland to stop workshop, and aether vials to work around mana drain. Though this is a simplified example, I think the point has been made.
It is quite consistant, and can win against decks that strom based combo gets ruined by, like stax. Dragon however doesn't lose to specific decks; it loses to specific cards.
As long as gifts, stax, oath, and control slaver are played, and tinker for darksteel colossus is in every deck, cards like swords to plowshares, seal of cleansing, tormod's crypt, phyrexian furnace, and coffin purge will be either main decked or in the sideboards of everything you could play against. Any one of these cards can beat you, so you need an insane amount of answers to play it and win. Maybe if you MD 4 duress, 3 xantid swarm, and 3 pernicious deed you would stand a chance. Something like this.
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
3 Polluted Delta
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Duress
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Worldgorger Dragon
4 Animate Dead
3 Necromancy
3 Intuition
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Verdant Force
SIDEBOARD
3 Pithing Needle (mainly for wasteland)
3 Sundering Titan (mainly for control decks packing multiple dual lands)
3 Chalice of the Void (storm combo)
3 Null Rod (to stop phyrexian furnace and tormod's crypt)
3 In the Eye of Chaos (to combat gifts ungiven)
I am purely speculating here, but this may be what you're looking for. I wouldn't play it none-the-less.
Good Luck
You do not need laquatus with eternal witness. Animate dragon, and mill yourself with bazaar until eternal witness and verdant force get dumped into the GY. switch your animate spell to the witness and get a necromancy back in your hand with witness's ability. Aniamate the dragon again with necromancy, and bounce the witness in and out of play bringing back ancestral recall over and over and casting it at instant speed each time your lands come back into play to deck your opponent. Aternately, you can get another necromancy, and a time walk back with witness, and end your first loop by animating a verdant force. Then take a time walk turn, swing with verdant and a token, and animate your dragon again to bounce time walk back to your hand. Repeat untill your psuedo-infinate time walks, verdant force, and ever accumulating saproling tokens bring home the victory.
@ Forced Will
The latest dragon list you've found is worse than the first one. pernicious deed is the way to go. Remember dragon creates infinate mana so you can destroy anything they play, with it. You don't want to scoop to platinum angel.
And that's precisely why Shivan Hellkite is such a great win condition. As for stifle, you can run it if you want. I used to run 2 in my SB but never got too much use out of it.
No. Hellkite is a bad win condition because it requires you to screw up your manabase and add in an entirely unnecessary and mostly useless color (red).
@nastynate
Witness + Trike is vastly superior as a win condition than Witness + Verdant. It also takes care of Plats so you don't have to worry when you side out your Deeds.
As for Memnarch, the problem with it is that it's a "win a couple of turns from now" card, not a "win this turn" card like the Eternal Witness/Ancestral combo is, and not even a "win on opponent's next upkeep" card like Laquatus.
You need access to at least one other win condition because if you do go off first turn, just pulling out Memnarch won't do anything, and combo can still slap you in the face before you can beat down for the win.
8th (not bad)
France Vintage Champs 5/15
1st (excellent)
25th (pretty good)
SCG Rochester 6/12
46th
54th
109th
158th
SCG Chigago 4/10
52nd
53rd
58th
75th
81st
116th
137th
140th
145th
Over all what do you think now?
With surprise factor on it's side, sure why not chance it. Most of the time Blech!
And um have you seen the other decks the French meta?
A wise mage once said: Add some content or don't post.
-Lance
Don't double post either.
-Lance
-Lance
Spread the word.
Ill give you a small hint...fish and goblins arent on that list (you can argue fish if you want, but you are wrong, fish is a meta deck and a meta deck only forever...)
If you underestimate dragon you will lose to it until you stop underestimating it...
While the tourneys listed are fine and all, they are hardly conclusive...Dragon has placed top 8 at several SCG tournies, It top 8s on the west coast and in Europe quite often as well....In terms of combo right now though id say its your best bet....