The problem with leyline against ichorid is they have SO much effective hate against it. Jailer is safer since they only have the contagions. Furthermore, the plan is usually around 5-6 cards, with one being 6 leylines, and the other being 2/3 jailers, and some combination of needles and crypts. I prefer the latter because, while essentially just as effective, it offers needles/crypts in other matchups. Needle is a particularly versatile card, offering additional stax hate, etc.
Flash is essentially dead, really not a concern. It needs to get lucky to win in a consistent pattern, therefore at medium to large tournaments it is much more likely that it will lose a few matches due to its own instability. Therefore, since it is so difficult to play it with maintained consistency over the course, and because it can be self destructive, most educated players will opt out of it for a more consistent deck. As such, Flash is rarely played, and when played, usually by lesser players, which compounds instability.
I will look into the Jailer/+Needles/Crypt board against Ichorid I believe it to be better as well as my experience with Leyline has been mixed (Sometimes it is enough to win, and sometimes they just seem to find answers for it too fast)
Good logic on Flash. I rarely see it here myself, in fact I've only played against it twice and that against the same player.
I finally figured out why berserk is in the SB and most versions run cunning wish. Cunning wish is scrollable while berserk is not. And most versions run a playset of scrolls.
Yup, you do not have any "instant-speed" way of getting MD Berserk. You can only put it on top of your deck (however you do have Ponder/Brainstorm to put it into your hand after a tutor.
I fully understand that that is the case. However, how often does one really need to tutor for it unless they're already in a position to win? Compare the amount of times that this is relevant to the amount of times where both the extra 2U and spell make berserk unattainable (against stax) or in which case that that extra slot or so in the board is relevant (more difficult to determine, but not insignificant).
When you are winning, scrolls are getting recall and more gushes, maybe more counter protection, and if you're losing its grabbing cheap quick solutions like truth. Furthermore, if you are losing, the extra 2U and spell to cast really anything can become a concern.
When GaT wins, it is in either complete control, or it has gone through so many gushbond will induced shenanigans that getting the final stroke berserk is irrelevant.
Honestly, how often is wish actually helpful, how many times is it win more, how many times would it have really mattered if it were wish or berserk your deck?
At least in my testing, there hasn't been a problem with running maindeck berserk. If there was, I would note on it. There usually wasn't a problem with wish either. So if both run fine in the maindeck, why waste the board space?
That being said, I'd certainly be open to other opinions. If someone could provide some statistics on relevence, it would be nice.
Just another quick note, in playing wish versions of gat, you board wish out for berserk (among other things), so it is akin to a pre-boarding anti-stax strategy anyway, and against control you either don't want berserk or you are so far into drawing stuff you're going to end up with it anyway without wasting scrolls on wishes for it.
If scrollability really is something you care about, although I'm not sure I see it, you could also try Cryptic Command as a wish replacement that also frees up board space, using its tap clause like a berserk. It's also an extra counter sometimes. Just a thought.
I agree with you that actually Wish often is a "win-more" But it has also been randomly helpful. If not it is at least pitchable to FOW and MD. Which I personally think oddly enough one of it's best features. As it sometimes gets dificult to decide what to pitch. It also sometimes serve as a 3cc FOW or MD (if you've been forced to pitch one of these earlier)
My point is tho, that I rarely need Berserk to win anymore. Altho it is we all know very good in certain match-ups. I can't say that I don't want to see this when playing against Stax.
I also have 1x Rebuild in my SB (sometimes i MD this) it's decent against Stax as well.
Another thing is after I removed Regrowth from my build, I'm kind of missing it now. I like being able to Regrwoth Echoing Truth or Ancestral Recall or even Time Walk sometimes just to force in one more attack.
I've found the deck doesn't have any mainboard answers to stuff like Chalice set to 2, and even then I'm sure the deck is holding Drains or Forces for your Recalls or Rebuilds, so maybe running another maindeck win condition would be good?
I've been running 1x Tendrils of Agony for about a week and it's been running really good. If I can't beatdown with Dryad I have a backup with Tendrils.
1 Psychatog is enough as a back-up win, though 1 Tendrils MD is also a good call. A couple swings with Dryad would soften them up enough to make a low-storm Tendrils lethal.
People shouldn't be casting chalice at 2 against you anyway. Its not that good, it takes out only a handfull of cards. Chalice at 1 is so much more of a concern. Chalice at one kills like half your deck, of course it is truthable.
I would probably opt for empty of tendrils, since you may have trouble hitting 9, and empty is easier to cast if you splash for it. Tog is a backup to chalice at 2 game one, and game 2 you have ridiculous things like 4 flux to deal with those types of shenanigans.
Why are the mind twists in there? There's no reason for them, especially considering you have duresses in the main board (I assume).
You do not need Leyline of the Void. Yixlid Jailer is better on many fronts. You can use two or three of him in the board. That'll also free up some space for things like Engineered Explosives.
-2 Mind Twist
+2 Engineered Explosives
-4 Leyline of the Void
+2-3 Yixlid Jailer
+Hurkyl's Recall, Tormod's Crypt, other meta choice.
Otherwise, it looks pretty good to me.
Why are the mind twists in there? There's no reason for them, especially considering you have duresses in the main board (I assume).
You do not need Leyline of the Void. Yixlid Jailer is better on many fronts. You can use two or three of him in the board. That'll also free up some space for things like Engineered Explosives.
-2 Mind Twist
+2 Engineered Explosives -4 Leyline of the Void
+2-3 Yixlid Jailer
+Hurkyl's Recall, Tormod's Crypt, other meta choice.
Otherwise, it looks pretty good to me.
You don't need both Leyline and Jailer, that's overkill. In Gro-a-Tog, Jailers are better because drawing into extra leylines suck
I've finally put this deck together. I've found with it that I'm having trouble getting enough threats out quick enough. Sometimes it runs wonderfully, but other times I'm top decking for a creature, and when it's a dryad I don't have any cantrips to pump it up.
The deck can take any number of roles, that is its versatility. It can act as control, combo, or aggro in a given situation. That being said, the primary goal is to keep a constant stream of cards.
To that end, intelligent use of the engine is integral.
You speak of having trouble when you are in topdeck mode. You should NEVER be in topdeck mode. If you ARE in topdeck mode, you better have the win in your grasps (like expending your counters to defend a large dryad/goyf/tog) or you are losing.
There are some primary points to be made.
First, it is important you understand how brainstorm works. Brainstorm is an extremely powerful spell, but only if you use it correctly. Brainstorm, particularly in this deck, should function almost as powerfully as recall. Therefore, do not simply cast a brainstorm whenever. If you draw a brainstorm in topdeck mode, do not use it. Hell, never use brainstorm unless one of the two following conditions are met: You have an immediate shuffle effect (easily met by fetches, tutors, ponder) or you absolutely must draw cards in order to not lose (as in, hold it until the absolute last moment).
Ponder/Scroll are typically easier to use, as ponder can usually be cast more freely do to being a weaker spell and scroll usually just gets recall, counters, gush, or bounce depending on the circumstances.
Gush is similar to brainstorm in this deck. Don't just cast it whenever, cast it when you need it or when fastbond/will is involved, and try to hold on to it in other circumstances.
To this end, don't empty your hand. You don't even need to cast every mana source you draw, hold on to them after you hit 5 or so mana, and even then you can stagger your drops. This creates a condition where both your opponent thinks you are holding something and where you have fodder to through back to brainstorms later.
Really, thats the most important point. Unless you are playing against stax, do not play cards unless you have to or unless they gain immediate advantage. Duresses, ponders, sure go ahead and cast them. Most everything else try to hold on to. Keep your hand robust no matter what role you take and you will likely succeed.
Thanks Glix. I saw a big improvement today. I didn't understand this part..
Gush is similar to brainstorm in this deck. Don't just cast it whenever, cast it when you need it or when fastbond/will is involved, and try to hold on to it in other circumstances.
How come it's not right to cast Gush quickly? I can understand waiting an extra turn for mana reasons, but why would I wait any longer than that unless I was trying to protect my islands? Thanks.
Thanks Glix. I saw a big improvement today. I didn't understand this part..
How come it's not right to cast Gush quickly? I can understand waiting an extra turn for mana reasons, but why would I wait any longer than that unless I was trying to protect my islands? Thanks.
A lot of the time you want to wait until you have fastbond so that you can replay the lands that same turn, to use the mana for other things as well.
Or so I think. I don't play with the deck (just against it), so I might have the wrong impression.
No you don't. You use Gush as a mini-Recall to search for that backbreaking Will and/or Fastbond which lets you go crazy. The deck only needs around 2-3 mana in play to function right anyway, so the returned lands aren't too huge a deal.
I have found myself at times trying to do a hail mary Gush/Brainstorm... it usually is a bad idea.
GAT really relies on the pilot making smart decisions. Not necessarily SAFE plays, but smart plays. Baiting, countering, searching... all are key elements of the deck really.
I also found that I can not play this deck anymore, I am getting sick of it. I needed a change (like I normally do) after playing a deck for a long time.
After playing this for a while using goyf's I have started to test with a combination of 3 goyfs, and 2 Dryads. I have been having a problem with bomberman in both cases if they resolve an aven mindcencor. Is there any advice to stopping it. I was thinking mainboarding 1 darkblast in the Fire/Ice slot. Has this been tried? Is is viable? Is there a better way?
Bomberman has more counters than GAT so a reusable solution along with our card advantage seems like it could work. What is the best artifact hate i can sideboard. I have energy flux, but should i also run ancient grudge?
Just for an update, Glix, I know that you play vintage a lot more than I do. How is your new list turning out? Is the MD Berserk working like you'd hoped? If you have a new list, I'd really be interested to see what you're running now. Thanks.
Flash is essentially dead, really not a concern. It needs to get lucky to win in a consistent pattern, therefore at medium to large tournaments it is much more likely that it will lose a few matches due to its own instability. Therefore, since it is so difficult to play it with maintained consistency over the course, and because it can be self destructive, most educated players will opt out of it for a more consistent deck. As such, Flash is rarely played, and when played, usually by lesser players, which compounds instability.
Good logic on Flash. I rarely see it here myself, in fact I've only played against it twice and that against the same player.
When you are winning, scrolls are getting recall and more gushes, maybe more counter protection, and if you're losing its grabbing cheap quick solutions like truth. Furthermore, if you are losing, the extra 2U and spell to cast really anything can become a concern.
When GaT wins, it is in either complete control, or it has gone through so many gushbond will induced shenanigans that getting the final stroke berserk is irrelevant.
Honestly, how often is wish actually helpful, how many times is it win more, how many times would it have really mattered if it were wish or berserk your deck?
At least in my testing, there hasn't been a problem with running maindeck berserk. If there was, I would note on it. There usually wasn't a problem with wish either. So if both run fine in the maindeck, why waste the board space?
That being said, I'd certainly be open to other opinions. If someone could provide some statistics on relevence, it would be nice.
Just another quick note, in playing wish versions of gat, you board wish out for berserk (among other things), so it is akin to a pre-boarding anti-stax strategy anyway, and against control you either don't want berserk or you are so far into drawing stuff you're going to end up with it anyway without wasting scrolls on wishes for it.
If scrollability really is something you care about, although I'm not sure I see it, you could also try Cryptic Command as a wish replacement that also frees up board space, using its tap clause like a berserk. It's also an extra counter sometimes. Just a thought.
My point is tho, that I rarely need Berserk to win anymore. Altho it is we all know very good in certain match-ups. I can't say that I don't want to see this when playing against Stax.
I also have 1x Rebuild in my SB (sometimes i MD this) it's decent against Stax as well.
Another thing is after I removed Regrowth from my build, I'm kind of missing it now. I like being able to Regrwoth Echoing Truth or Ancestral Recall or even Time Walk sometimes just to force in one more attack.
I've been running 1x Tendrils of Agony for about a week and it's been running really good. If I can't beatdown with Dryad I have a backup with Tendrils.
Trade binder.
I would probably opt for empty of tendrils, since you may have trouble hitting 9, and empty is easier to cast if you splash for it. Tog is a backup to chalice at 2 game one, and game 2 you have ridiculous things like 4 flux to deal with those types of shenanigans.
4x Leyline of the void
4x Energy Flux
3x Tarmogoyf
2x Mind Twist
2x Pithing Needle
You do not need Leyline of the Void. Yixlid Jailer is better on many fronts. You can use two or three of him in the board. That'll also free up some space for things like Engineered Explosives.
-2 Mind Twist
+2 Engineered Explosives
-4 Leyline of the Void
+2-3 Yixlid Jailer
+Hurkyl's Recall, Tormod's Crypt, other meta choice.
Otherwise, it looks pretty good to me.
You don't need both Leyline and Jailer, that's overkill. In Gro-a-Tog, Jailers are better because drawing into extra leylines suck
Not a math major, are you?
Not a math major, are you?
Yeah, Jailer is soooo much better than Leyline in GAT.
He beats, kills off some GY use, easily casted, and beefs up Dryad.
MTGS - H/W List
MOTL H/W List
MOTL References
Any suggestions? I imagine I'm playing it badly.
The deck can take any number of roles, that is its versatility. It can act as control, combo, or aggro in a given situation. That being said, the primary goal is to keep a constant stream of cards.
To that end, intelligent use of the engine is integral.
You speak of having trouble when you are in topdeck mode. You should NEVER be in topdeck mode. If you ARE in topdeck mode, you better have the win in your grasps (like expending your counters to defend a large dryad/goyf/tog) or you are losing.
There are some primary points to be made.
First, it is important you understand how brainstorm works. Brainstorm is an extremely powerful spell, but only if you use it correctly. Brainstorm, particularly in this deck, should function almost as powerfully as recall. Therefore, do not simply cast a brainstorm whenever. If you draw a brainstorm in topdeck mode, do not use it. Hell, never use brainstorm unless one of the two following conditions are met: You have an immediate shuffle effect (easily met by fetches, tutors, ponder) or you absolutely must draw cards in order to not lose (as in, hold it until the absolute last moment).
Ponder/Scroll are typically easier to use, as ponder can usually be cast more freely do to being a weaker spell and scroll usually just gets recall, counters, gush, or bounce depending on the circumstances.
Gush is similar to brainstorm in this deck. Don't just cast it whenever, cast it when you need it or when fastbond/will is involved, and try to hold on to it in other circumstances.
To this end, don't empty your hand. You don't even need to cast every mana source you draw, hold on to them after you hit 5 or so mana, and even then you can stagger your drops. This creates a condition where both your opponent thinks you are holding something and where you have fodder to through back to brainstorms later.
Really, thats the most important point. Unless you are playing against stax, do not play cards unless you have to or unless they gain immediate advantage. Duresses, ponders, sure go ahead and cast them. Most everything else try to hold on to. Keep your hand robust no matter what role you take and you will likely succeed.
How come it's not right to cast Gush quickly? I can understand waiting an extra turn for mana reasons, but why would I wait any longer than that unless I was trying to protect my islands? Thanks.
A lot of the time you want to wait until you have fastbond so that you can replay the lands that same turn, to use the mana for other things as well.
Or so I think. I don't play with the deck (just against it), so I might have the wrong impression.
GAT really relies on the pilot making smart decisions. Not necessarily SAFE plays, but smart plays. Baiting, countering, searching... all are key elements of the deck really.
I also found that I can not play this deck anymore, I am getting sick of it. I needed a change (like I normally do) after playing a deck for a long time.
MTGS - H/W List
MOTL H/W List
MOTL References
Bomberman has more counters than GAT so a reusable solution along with our card advantage seems like it could work. What is the best artifact hate i can sideboard. I have energy flux, but should i also run ancient grudge?
Thanks to Alacar Leoricar for the awsome banner!
Great Quotes
"Luck is statistics taken personally." - X DarkAngel X
I prefer the Red splash. It lets me keep two slots in my SB for Pyroblast and REB. And for Empty the Warrens, as well.
Trade binder.