Here's a decklist from a star city games article. I'm currently running something very similiar to what Glix posted last page, but I think there's some interesting ideas here. What do you guys think? It seems much more aggro.
Psychatog 2k8
Suggested by Stephen Menendian on 2008-02-03 as a potential deck for Vintage
Too many togs, no Dryads or Goyfs, and Gorilla Shaman? This list looks horrendous. It's like they tried to turn Stax into GAT by adding a bunch of psychatog. I do like the fact that they run multiple Cunning wish for the wishboard, though. But, um... firestorm?
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss that list, Glurman.
Essentially what they have done is built gat for a heavily stax metagame. They run Mana Drain, which is one of the best hate cards for stax available, and run plenty of things to drain into in the form of wish. The creature tog itself is actually one of the better creatures for Gat to run, its an immediate threat that is probably optimal in the largest number of matches, not to mention pitchable. I mean, its obvious that its good or we wouldn't be running.
What they have done, essentially, is incorporate drains into the gat shell, and then redefined the list to better suit it, which I will say they have done fairly well. Wish is one of the best cards that a drain based gat players can play because it is a great drain sink and ads versatility, and because the deck is slowed down, the mana cost is not as significant as in earlier builds. What really shines is the interaction between wish and tog, allowing one to cast recall up to 5 times without great effort to recast it, in addition to being able to wish for answers.
I would not mock firestorm either, Firestorm is actually a really strong and underrated card. A good margin of the time its going to be a one-sided wrath, and then additionally acts as tog in spell form if you can afford the extra cards to hit your opponent.
Demars himself won around 3 of his games solely on the power of firestorm being the exact card he needed to get himself out of situations.
I don't really get your comment on turning stax into gat, there is no semblance what so ever between this and stax. I would say the closest semblances of this to other decks would be a sort of fusion of modern gat and old tog lists.
Keep in mind that looking at the list, it is really not that deviant. The deck has been decelerated by replacing ponders with slower, but more controlling, options. The result of this is a significantly improved stax matchup, and mrsa is by far one of gats worst possible matches.
Admittedly, shaman is probably the worst card in the deck, and it is likely it could be replaced, but it is hardly a bad card.
Let us please refrain from using demagoguery, and try and back up claims with logic. It is likely that your comment was a knee jerk reaction, and I won't deny that I've had similar responses to other decks, but one should not simply claim there are "too many" of anything without explaining your logic. I hardly see how 3 it an "insanely high" amount of togs, even in normal gat I could easily support someone running that number, gorilla shaman is hardly a bad card, and firestorm has long been an extremely viable wish target. That being said, I could easily be in the wrong on these concepts. I would appreciate it if you could embellish on your response so that we may examine your claims more fully.
As Glix said, that list is definitly geared towards beating Stax. It still contains the solid draw engine, and at the same time it is good against a certain metagame.
Wow, your explanation really put the deck into a better light, Glix. That's why you're the guru. I didn't even SEE the Mana Drains, much less their uses. I didn't read firestorm either, I think I had it confused with Devastating Dreams... which is a sorcery. Giving it a second look, with all the cards you have in hand, I can see you wrecking fish or beatz with it.
But I still think that 3 Tog is too much, unless you think that you're up against a lot of removal. You say that this is a meta for stax, which is why it seems so alien to me. I run into a bunch of Ichorid and R/G Beatz when I play, mostly because they're cheaper to build. I rarely find the need for more than one 'Tog, though I suppose its 'pitchability' can really help it. Who knows. Your explanation really got me thinking that it's a solid list, though I am still not sold on Gorilla Shaman. Though, I suppose if you have a bunch of mana from a Drain, you can blow up a lotofstuff, although it would be during your first main phase. Thanks for knocking some sense into me, though, the list now looks really solid.
I just think that Dryad is a better win condition that multiple 'tog. At some point, you just don't have enough cards to pump more than one FTW.
And has Empty the Warrens really replaced Brain Freeze as the 'alt kill' of choice? I'm still partial to the lower-costing one that will kill them on their turn, barring any Uba Mask shenanigans.
And has Empty the Warrens really replaced Brain Freeze as the 'alt kill' of choice? I'm still partial to the lower-costing one that will kill them on their turn, barring any Uba Mask shenanigans.
The problem with Brain Freeze is that it's pretty much all or nothing. If you can't get the storm count up high enough to wipe out their library, you might just be giving them what they need to win.
Empty the Warrens with a storm count of 4 leading up to it is still good enough to put your opponent on a two-turn clock.
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The problem with Brain Freeze is that it's pretty much all or nothing. If you can't get the storm count up high enough to wipe out their library, you might just be giving them what they need to win.
I doubt I'm seeing it at the same angle as Glurman, but from my perspective it seems that he means Brainfreezing yourself as "pump" for Tog. A Brainfreeze for 4 is +6 damage.
I doubt I'm seeing it at the same angle as Glurman, but from my perspective it seems that he means Brainfreezing yourself as "pump" for Tog. A Brainfreeze for 4 is +6 damage.
That's true, but then again an Empty for 4 is 8 damage next turn AND every subsequent turn, plus Empty is still good when you don't have 'Tog.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
Can someone explain to me the value of mystical tutor? It's nice, but I'm never really excited to see it. I've got 4 merchant scrolls and big redundancy in most of the instants I want to see, and I really don't like the card disadvantage I get from mystical tutor. I usually just end up pitching it to a FOW or Misdirection.
What's the reasoning for having it in the deck? I recognize any tutor's a good tutor, but I'm sure there's something else that could fill that slot better.
Well, first its important to note that "just pitching" isn't really that awful, plenty of good card "just get pitched"; its a necessity.
Regardless, if any deck can nullify the disadvantage of the tutor, gat can. It has huge amounts of drawing that can easilly negate a one card disadvantage. What does mystical do though? Through card disadvantage, it does create a rather substantial card quality advantage for the most part.
Mystical is capable of fetching a turn 2 recall, and other turn 2 spells such as fow and duress as protection if its in your opener. Later in the game, it is typically used to find silver bullet answers, and, in addition to scroll targets, it gets time walk, berserk if you run that main, empty the warrens if you run red, other tutors such as demonic giving you access to a whole other pallet, and the big one, will. Will wins games, and losing one card advantage to gain that kind of disgusting card advantage through will is more than an even trade in most circumstances.
All in all, mystical allows you to transmute a scroll into just about any card in your deck, or just to tutor on its own. Furthermore, it is blue, and so you CAN pitch it, that is an asset, like it or not.
Ive been running a version of Tog2k8 since about 3 days after Menendian wrote his article on it. I have play tested both version, with Gush engine and AK + Intuition... in the end, I took it apart. It didn't perform up to standards, at least pre-sideboard. I love Psychatog as a creature though, and it really is powerful. Opponent would be at 17, Id have a 2 Gushes in hand, double gush and run them over no problem.
I really like his idea of drains and multiple wishes. I'm putting together a deck now, waiting for some cards. I'll post it up for critique when i put it together.
How has the snuff out been? My initial reaction to it was very negative, but I can see some arguments for it with your mana base.
Here's what I'm currently running. It's very similar to what Glix posted a few pages back. It probably needs 4 duresses in the end, but my home metagame is really creature heavy, so more often than not they're sideboarded out. I also wanted to try a maindeck extirpate. I kinda like it. It's great against any deck running FoW's, and I've yet to be unhappy to see it.
Quirion Dryad I haven't liked. It's just too vulnerable. Getting it bounced sucks.
If you run the GAT with 4x duress and 2-3 thoughtseize you can usually pick out the bounce threats... you shouldn't need him alive long enough if cast him the turn you combo out with YawgWin esp if you time walk on the same turn and cast empty the warrens.
I personally find it hard to set up a pack of goyfs to swing for the kill after I have removed so many of my cards from the game because I replayed them with YawgWin
Do you guys think this can restructure to the new banned/restricted list or is it just gone?
It has to be just gone. All of the cards that sustained it: Gush, Brainstorm, Ponder, and Merchant Scroll are all gone. The absence of Gush is the most painful, but there is just no adequate replacement that is efficient enough. The whole point of the deck was to draw cards into more cards...and there is just not the engine anymore. I guess you could try, but I think there are just better ways to use your time right now.
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
Creatures
1 Gorilla Shaman
3 Psychatog
Enchantments
1 Fastbond
Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
4 Force Of Will
4 Gush
4 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Duress
1 Empty The Warrens
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
Basic Lands
4 Island
1 Swamp
Lands
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Pithing Needle
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Berserk
1 Echoing Truth
1 Extirpate
1 Fact Or Fiction
1 Firestorm
1 Oxidize
1 Pyroblast
1 Rack And Ruin
2 Red Elemental Blast
Essentially what they have done is built gat for a heavily stax metagame. They run Mana Drain, which is one of the best hate cards for stax available, and run plenty of things to drain into in the form of wish. The creature tog itself is actually one of the better creatures for Gat to run, its an immediate threat that is probably optimal in the largest number of matches, not to mention pitchable. I mean, its obvious that its good or we wouldn't be running.
What they have done, essentially, is incorporate drains into the gat shell, and then redefined the list to better suit it, which I will say they have done fairly well. Wish is one of the best cards that a drain based gat players can play because it is a great drain sink and ads versatility, and because the deck is slowed down, the mana cost is not as significant as in earlier builds. What really shines is the interaction between wish and tog, allowing one to cast recall up to 5 times without great effort to recast it, in addition to being able to wish for answers.
I would not mock firestorm either, Firestorm is actually a really strong and underrated card. A good margin of the time its going to be a one-sided wrath, and then additionally acts as tog in spell form if you can afford the extra cards to hit your opponent.
Demars himself won around 3 of his games solely on the power of firestorm being the exact card he needed to get himself out of situations.
I don't really get your comment on turning stax into gat, there is no semblance what so ever between this and stax. I would say the closest semblances of this to other decks would be a sort of fusion of modern gat and old tog lists.
Keep in mind that looking at the list, it is really not that deviant. The deck has been decelerated by replacing ponders with slower, but more controlling, options. The result of this is a significantly improved stax matchup, and mrsa is by far one of gats worst possible matches.
Admittedly, shaman is probably the worst card in the deck, and it is likely it could be replaced, but it is hardly a bad card.
Let us please refrain from using demagoguery, and try and back up claims with logic. It is likely that your comment was a knee jerk reaction, and I won't deny that I've had similar responses to other decks, but one should not simply claim there are "too many" of anything without explaining your logic. I hardly see how 3 it an "insanely high" amount of togs, even in normal gat I could easily support someone running that number, gorilla shaman is hardly a bad card, and firestorm has long been an extremely viable wish target. That being said, I could easily be in the wrong on these concepts. I would appreciate it if you could embellish on your response so that we may examine your claims more fully.
I really like the 3x Cunning Wish + 4x Mana Drain "combo."
As Glix said, that list is definitly geared towards beating Stax. It still contains the solid draw engine, and at the same time it is good against a certain metagame.
The thing I think is questionable is the lack of Vampiric Tutor, while it's still running Mystical Tutor.
Only thing I can think of there is that Mystical can be fetched with Merchant Scroll but Vampiric Tutor can't.
But I still think that 3 Tog is too much, unless you think that you're up against a lot of removal. You say that this is a meta for stax, which is why it seems so alien to me. I run into a bunch of Ichorid and R/G Beatz when I play, mostly because they're cheaper to build. I rarely find the need for more than one 'Tog, though I suppose its 'pitchability' can really help it. Who knows. Your explanation really got me thinking that it's a solid list, though I am still not sold on Gorilla Shaman. Though, I suppose if you have a bunch of mana from a Drain, you can blow up a lot of stuff, although it would be during your first main phase. Thanks for knocking some sense into me, though, the list now looks really solid.
I just think that Dryad is a better win condition that multiple 'tog. At some point, you just don't have enough cards to pump more than one FTW.
And has Empty the Warrens really replaced Brain Freeze as the 'alt kill' of choice? I'm still partial to the lower-costing one that will kill them on their turn, barring any Uba Mask shenanigans.
The problem with Brain Freeze is that it's pretty much all or nothing. If you can't get the storm count up high enough to wipe out their library, you might just be giving them what they need to win.
Empty the Warrens with a storm count of 4 leading up to it is still good enough to put your opponent on a two-turn clock.
I doubt I'm seeing it at the same angle as Glurman, but from my perspective it seems that he means Brainfreezing yourself as "pump" for Tog. A Brainfreeze for 4 is +6 damage.
That's true, but then again an Empty for 4 is 8 damage next turn AND every subsequent turn, plus Empty is still good when you don't have 'Tog.
What's the reasoning for having it in the deck? I recognize any tutor's a good tutor, but I'm sure there's something else that could fill that slot better.
Regardless, if any deck can nullify the disadvantage of the tutor, gat can. It has huge amounts of drawing that can easilly negate a one card disadvantage. What does mystical do though? Through card disadvantage, it does create a rather substantial card quality advantage for the most part.
Mystical is capable of fetching a turn 2 recall, and other turn 2 spells such as fow and duress as protection if its in your opener. Later in the game, it is typically used to find silver bullet answers, and, in addition to scroll targets, it gets time walk, berserk if you run that main, empty the warrens if you run red, other tutors such as demonic giving you access to a whole other pallet, and the big one, will. Will wins games, and losing one card advantage to gain that kind of disgusting card advantage through will is more than an even trade in most circumstances.
All in all, mystical allows you to transmute a scroll into just about any card in your deck, or just to tutor on its own. Furthermore, it is blue, and so you CAN pitch it, that is an asset, like it or not.
MTGS - H/W List
MOTL H/W List
MOTL References
Scroll into Mystical into YawgWin.
Mystical can also just be pitched, or be a 5th pseudo-scroll.
4x Gush
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Mana Drain
3x Cunning Wish
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Ancestral Recall
Sorceries 8
4x Merchant Scroll
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Time Walk
1x Empty The Warrens
Enchantment
1x Fastbond
Creatures 6
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Psychatog
1x Black Lotus
1x Sol Ring
1x Mox Diamond
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Pearl
Lands 15
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
2x Volcanic Island
3x Island
2x Yixlid Jailer
2x Energy Flux
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Misdirection
1x Snuff Out
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Berserk
1x Artifact Mutation
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Repeal
1x Extirpate
1x Trickbind
1x Krosan Grip
Here's what I'm currently running. It's very similar to what Glix posted a few pages back. It probably needs 4 duresses in the end, but my home metagame is really creature heavy, so more often than not they're sideboarded out. I also wanted to try a maindeck extirpate. I kinda like it. It's great against any deck running FoW's, and I've yet to be unhappy to see it.
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
Creatures
4 Quirion Dryad
1 Psychatog
Spells
4 Force of Will
3 Duress
2 Misdirection
2 Mana Drain
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gush
1 Fastbond
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Berserk
1 Echoing Truth
1 Extirpate
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle
Glix, where have you gone with this deck since the last time you posted? Of all the deck lists I've seen, your general build has been my favorite.
Here is my current list:
2 Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fastbond
1 Time Walk
1 Berserk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Fire/Ice
1 Echoing Truth
4 Duress
2 Mana Drain
4 Brainstorm
4 Gush
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Ponder
4 Quirion Dryad
1 Psychatog
4 Energy Flux
2 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroclasm
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Volcanic Island
2 Yixlid Jailer
So what do you think?
I'm not sure if MisD is good in the current format, so I opted to take it out for now.
Quirion Dryad I haven't liked. It's just too vulnerable. Getting it bounced sucks.
If you run the GAT with 4x duress and 2-3 thoughtseize you can usually pick out the bounce threats... you shouldn't need him alive long enough if cast him the turn you combo out with YawgWin esp if you time walk on the same turn and cast empty the warrens.
I personally find it hard to set up a pack of goyfs to swing for the kill after I have removed so many of my cards from the game because I replayed them with YawgWin
It has to be just gone. All of the cards that sustained it: Gush, Brainstorm, Ponder, and Merchant Scroll are all gone. The absence of Gush is the most painful, but there is just no adequate replacement that is efficient enough. The whole point of the deck was to draw cards into more cards...and there is just not the engine anymore. I guess you could try, but I think there are just better ways to use your time right now.
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