I can't see any thread discussing this archetype at the moment. So, I decided to start one because I think it has the potential to be good again post June 20 B/R.
Yep, Leman was right.
I am going to leave this here, as I do feel it is a valid topic for the Competitive forum. I will update the list on this post when a more well defined post-apocalypse list is determined.
RE: #1: Yaikes! Sorry if I did something wrong. :S
RE: #2: A couple of MD Tormod's Crypt and some Jailers/Layline of the Void in the board may help?
RE: #3: Losing 3x Brainstorms isn't good, but as you said, the deck doesn't lose like Flash.dec and CS won't really miss the other cards including Merchant Scroll. I usually only played one of it anyway before B/R.
Also, Gifts Ungiven could/should replace Fact or Fiction maybe.
16 land and 9 artifact mana. Is that enough? it seems like this deck is very mana hungry. Also wouldnt on color artifact land be better than the citadel?
I would go
-3 brainstorm
+1 ponder
+1 fetch land
+1 tutor of some kind. vamp or gifts.
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Sensei's Diving Top is really good, definitely better than jank like ponder, as it serves a similar function, but is both more permanent and an artifact. Not to mention it does tricky welder shenanigans.
The deck will need a good amount of yard hate maindeck, at least a crypt or two. Ichorid historically eats this deck alive.
Shaman is likely good again with advents in artifact mana and in hate like chalice and null rod.
Fire/Ice is also good again, creatures will be coming back since fish and shops lose very little, and combo will have to move to stuff like confidant as a primary draw engine. That or revert to something like IT, but without bstorm that seems like it loses something in transition.
Control Slaver did take a hit in Scroll, as most modern variants used it, but that is easily alleviated.
I agree on the Sensei's Divining top should be a 2of in the deck. And that Darksteel Citadel might be better of as another colored source of mana.
I would take out Pentavus and put Darksteel Colossus in instead tho, and maybe take out one Mindslaver as well and add another Triskelavus/Triskelion or Sundering Titan or just Tormod's Crypt.
I tried Night's Whisper in this deck and it was actually pretty good. So maybe this card can replace the Merchant Scrolls and Brainstorms together with Sensei's Divining Top.
Alright, here's a deck list I've put together. Critique welcome, especially in the manabase. It's inspired by a list suggested by Stephen Mendendian. The sideboard isn't set in stone yet, but it'd have to hate out the graveyard pretty hard.
I love duress effects, I think they're the absolute nuts. That said, I dropped them here. I would like to find room for three, but I don't see it right now. In my playtesting of the deck, I didn't have a strong enough draw engine. I was often topdecking hoping to pick up a threat. My board would be pretty strong, but I would be spent. I gave up the duress effects in order to strengthen the draw engine.
I dropped the lotus petal. Aside from enabling a first turn mana drain, I just don't like the petal. It's nice with yawg's will, but I figured a second top was a better choice.
I also dropped a mindslaver to make room for the draw engine. I'm working off the concept that a more robust draw engine will give me the slaver when I need it.
There are some other changes, most notably the gorilla shamans, which I can't attest to since I haven't yet tested.
I think this is a reasonable starting place for a decklist, but I believe it definitely needs improvement. Let me know what you think.
Where is your Tormod's Crypt Main? IMO they are a must at the moment.
also, It's been a while since I've used Triskelion in this deck, but it seems to be the norm now days. I on the other hand use Triskelavus instead. Which one of these is the better today and why?
finaly, I also prefer having 2 Mindslavers in the build because it just wins you games.
I would probably drop the 1x Fact or Fiction for it.
You could also drop 1 Mana Drain + 2 Shamans for 3 Duress (If you really want Duress in the deck)
In my experience, one turn does the trick most of the time. This depends of course on how early or what type of deck you face. The more nasty stuff you can do during the slavered turn the better obvious. So vs combo decks or other welder decks for example you probably win after one activation.
That doesn't mean you auto win, but you have messed up their game enough for you to win the game or even time to build up a soft-lock for slaver.
What are everyone's thoughts on Library of Alexandria and a main deck Jester's Cap? The cap seems good against so many things even if you only get to use it once. It's just a beast if you can recur it three times with welder.
Also, I'm toying with Intuition. I'm having trouble finding which set of the more expensive draws/tutors to play. I'm between Intuition, Fact or Fiction and Gifts Ungiven. I can't quite figure which get included and which get excluded.
Round 1: Bomberman (0-2)
Round 2: A Fish build that looked a lot like Nauts without the Mask/naughts (1-2)
Round 3: Long (2-1)
Round 4: Same deck as round 2, different pilot (2-0)
Round 5: Grim Long (2-1)
For a 10/24 finish. My round 3 should have been 2-0, which would have brought me into 9th or 8th. I had a totally locked position with an arcane laboratory and then proceeded to cast about 8 spells in one turn. My opponent didn't even notice until I said something. Doh!
I don't feel so terrible about my first two losses as I did when they happened. Both decks top 8'd, and the guy from round 2 said most of his sideboard was commited to beating slaver. He brought in 12 cards against me second game and third games. Sower of Temptation robbed my colossus both games. I think I would have been able to win these if I had a titan instead of an angel sideboard and tinkered for that instead of the colossus.
The future sight was Junk. I was playing around with it, and I was hoping it was gonna be awesome, but it's just a win more card. It can go off pretty bad, especially with a top, but it usually only does when you're already winning.
The Counterbalance was very nice. I was always happy to see it. It helped my 5th round match against Long a bunch, and it helped my 4th round match against the BGu fish variant a little.
I like the Gorilla Shaman main deck. He messes up other people's games pretty badly and he can kill one of my own moxes if I need to get an active welder/top. He's also a monster beat stick.
The triskelion was marginally useful this tourny. It helped me out in round 4, and that's about it. I'm not convinced he comes out yet, but he might. At home playtesting against things like goblins he's a house. I'm pretty sure he's better than the penatvius or the triskelavus. Might be a good idea to put him in the sideboard and put the Titan main deck.
I love the Memory Jar. I wouldn't trade it for anything.
Intuition has been very good so far. I don't like getting 3 welders with it, but I do like getting something like {top, Jar, Skelion} or some other set of bomb artifacts when I already have the welder in play. I might try to include 2, but I'm not crazy about using it for anything but the artifact sets. {Will, Recall, Time Walk} or {Will, Recall, Tinker} just don't really do it for me. I might have to get better at using it though.
I never got an active library, but having it never hurt me. I'm unsure about this card either way.
I wasn't blown away by my sideboard, there were some soft spots. I was very happy with the arcane laboratory. I really like the red elemental blasts just because they side in against a lot of random stuff. I wasn't happy with the platinum angel. People can just answer her if they need to. I'd have been much better served by a Sundering Titan, i think it would have won me another game and possibly the match.
The Jester's Cap was nice. I never got to use it, but it would have been very useful in my matches against long.
The second darksteel colossus was there for painters servant. I'm not sure if I like this plan or not.
The extirpates were moderately useful. Might be a soft spot.
You might notice I took out the ponder and brainstorm. I'm sure the ponder is just junk that needs to go, I'm not sure about the brainstorm either way. I probably should include it.
How did you like your fact or fiction and Titan main deck?
Why only 3 welders, and what do you think about the petal? In my testing it was just junk.
I didn't like the gifts at all. It was never doing what I wanted it to do. I found a lot of the times I was trying to gifts for something like {demonic tutor, vampiric tutor, mystical tutor, merchant scroll}, which just sucks. It's also just clearly worse than intuition at loading up the graveyard. I was having trouble finding a place where gifts was more than marginally useful. Maybe I just play bad. I just don't like doing things like {Will, Recall, Time Walk, Tinker}. They invariably give you the time walk (which is nearly wasted because you presumably spent a turn's mana and a card to get it) and which ever else is least useful, and then the other two are gone for good. They rarely give you the will here.
I haven't tried fact or fiction, but I expect it will be very good. I'll probably be putting that in place of the Future Sight to try it out.
I didn't like the gifts at all. It was never doing what I wanted it to do. I found a lot of the times I was trying to gifts for something like {demonic tutor, vampiric tutor, mystical tutor, merchant scroll}, which just sucks. It's also just clearly worse than intuition at loading up the graveyard. I was having trouble finding a place where gifts was more than marginally useful. Maybe I just play bad. I just don't like doing things like {Will, Recall, Time Walk, Tinker}. They invariably give you the time walk (which is nearly wasted because you presumably spent a turn's mana and a card to get it) and which ever else is least useful, and then the other two are gone for good. They rarely give you the will here.
I haven't tried fact or fiction, but I expect it will be very good. I'll probably be putting that in place of the Future Sight to try it out.
Why do Will, Recall, Walk, Tinker? Replace two of those with DT and VT and you might get somewhere, since tutoring up will lets you get it all back anyway.
For a 10/24 finish. My round 3 should have been 2-0, which would have brought me into 9th or 8th. I had a totally locked position with an arcane laboratory and then proceeded to cast about 8 spells in one turn. My opponent didn't even notice until I said something. Doh
That was me! Yeah, I have to pay more attention to stuff like that. You would have won that one if the game state hadn't been ****ed.
Why do Will, Recall, Walk, Tinker? Replace two of those with DT and VT and you might get somewhere, since tutoring up will lets you get it all back anyway.
This is certainly true. The point though, is that it never does what I want it do. It doesn't do well as a draw engine, it doesn't do well as a tutor, and it doesn't do well at loading up my graveyard. It just seems substandard in all of the places I want it to perform. Sure, it fills all three roles where other cards may only fill one or two, but it does each one so badly that it hardly does it at all.
I also don't like giving my opponent the final choice. I much prefer the case in Fact or Fiction where he divides the piles and I get the choice. It lets me take the optimal line.
D3@D: I'll have to test it out. I'm having trouble theorizing about that card. I'll let you know how it performs in testing. Have you tried it at all?
I'm a little hesitant to add any more graveyard dependency to the deck; it gets hated on hard already. If anything, I would like to move in the direction of having more serious non-graveyard based threats other than tinker.
And can anyone tell me anything about lotus petal? Steve Menendian is horny as hell for it, and it just looks like wasted space to me.
I haven't tested with Recoup that much yet. I just recently acquired the card and still need more time to figure out if its a win more or an actual card that is needed.
Another card that is all theory, but just an idea I just got right now is Show and Tell since you asked for a different non-yard-dependant-card other than tinker.
You can if you have it in your hand. Play Robot or Mindslaver for 3mana. but it gives your opponent a chance to play some sweet stuff as well. You have to be sure he doesn't got a better play than you (maybe after seeing his hand with Duress or Seize?)
Play Regrowth. It is an amazing card. It knocks everything else out that's graveyard search. Why limit yourself to instants or sorceries when you might need an artifact, enchanment or land as well. Regrowth his amazing versatile. Also when using Gifts, I always piss my oppenents off, I usually get Time Walk, Regrowth, Ancestral Recall, and Tinker. They usually give me Regrowth a Tinker and Ancestral. So I just go get a collosus or titan and draw three more cards usually drawing into another search card or creature as well anyway. Also Sundering Titan is a house. He rocks! I love destroying lands. He is great disruption and people don't want to kill him and repeat the process.
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Regrowth is also green... which isn't blue, red or black. Just fyi.
Recoup might be ocay, but I'd stay away from show and tell. Both cards indicate to me that you're playing the deck too aggressively. You don't need to win asap, you want to win later. Robots in your hand are better discarded to tfk than show and telled, the card advantage will win you the game later. Late game, you should be able to just cast them, which means you don't have to give you ropponant an opportunity to put a counter-proof beast of his own into play. Even recoup; you don't need to win by means of comboing, so its doubtful that gifts should be played in that manner, and the card isn't spectacular outside of it, as its slow, and late game you should be winning anyway (if you've arived there, considering you're the control deck typically).
From the converstaion presented so far, it is clear to me that you aren't playing gifts correctly. You don't get the 4 best cards in your deck. Its highly situational, and rarely will that pile be correct. The trick with gifts is that you DO get the final choice, unless your opponant screw up. You simply need to obtain a combination of cards in which you know what you will be given; that is, depending on what you need, create a situation where your opponant must give you 2 specific cards. For instance, if you really want will, go for tinker/recall/tutor/tutor. If they give you tiker/recall, you'll just win, and if they give you either tutor, you can tutor up will. This is a prime example. Other times you may just need more mana next turn, or some more counter power, or whatever. Whatever the case, don't play it like a combo card. It isn't gifts from gifts, its gifts in slaver. Also, gifts makes for a great burried alive ;).
I've been working on this deck pretty hard lately. Here's the list I'm currently playing with. I don't think it's quite right yet, but it's much stronger than the last list I posted. I haven't tuned the sideboard yet at all, so I won't bother including it.
I'm considering losing one thirst for knowledge for a fact or fiction. I don't really like thirst for knowledge in multiples. They don't provide enough card advantage. The deck is very card hungry in the early and mid game, and 1 Ancestral Recall doesn't really cut it. I know this is probably wrong, but I'm considering it. Fact does provide cards en-masse, and this deck is sorely missing raw card advantage. I'll probably settle on 4 thirsts with both the gifts and the fact, but the deck is very tight.
I'm also considering dropping either the vampiric tutor or the mystical tutor for the same reasons. This deck loves it's tutors, but card disadvantage hurts a lot, especially against the aggro decks. I wish I could run something like Grim Tutor, but the 2 black is prohobitive.
I switched out the Library for the Memory Jar for this reason as well. The Library just isn't active enough. The only time it seems to come into play is in your starting hand, and even there I'm not crazy about it. You need to play around it and even then it'll only get you a card or two, and then it's dead the rest of the game. This is especially true when you're running DSC as an early win condition. I'm not convinced the Memory Jar is the right direction, but my biggest problem with the deck right now is that it just needs raw card advantage. Memory Jar certainly addresses this.
I'd like to add a second Gorilla Shaman, he's very very mean, but that may be overkill. There are a lot of maindeck answers that I'd like to include (Fire//Ice, Rack and Ruin, etc) and I think diversity might outweigh redundancy here. They also don't help the aggro match up too much, so this really might be overkill.
I also want to play around with adding a 25th mana source, probably an island. Although, I am considering the seats of Synod for synergy with the rest of the deck. I'm not really sure what to think of these either way.
The Lotus Petal is a very strong card. I underestimated this. It will set you up with an active Mana Drain first turn about 6% of the time, and it synergizes well with the rest of the deck. This was a very tempting card for me to cut when I first started playing this deck, but I'm now a very big fan of it. I would not cut this.
I've also come around on Gifts Ungiven. It requires more thoughtful play, but it is very strong. It's very valuable to note that you can entomb two Robots with it without putting any cards in your hand. Because the search has a delimiter (the cards have to have different names), you can fail to find two cards, and choose something like {Mindslaver, Pentavus} and both will be put in the 'yard.
I've avoided sideboard discussion in this post, but I'm seriously considering an Empty the Warrens there as a second non-graveyard based win for games 2 and 3. This deck gets very sad when it's up against a leyline or even a crypt. I'm not sure if ETW is the right choice, but I'd like something beyond the Colossus and hardcasting things.
Overall this decklist is much tighter than the one I posted previously. It doesn't tend to blow up as much, but I think with careful and considerate play it just wins more games. In my limited testing so far, this list requires much more precise play, but it can result in games won that were otherwise unwinable.
First of all, it appears to me that you're playing library wrong. When you have library in play, you are the control deck. Play in a fashion that guarantees you keep it active and you will reap the benefits. For example, if you play loa, pass the turn and they cast recall, let it resolve even if you have the force (assuming they're some sort of control deck as well). LoA will draw more cards in the long run, and an active loa wins games. Ensure that it's active, activate it at smart times, and you just gain overwhelming card advantage.
Also, don't cut thirsts, they are the engine. They do everything the deck needs to power it, card advantage, tempo advantage, etc.
You do have other rooms to make cuts as well: 1 welder is easily cutable, 1 top is easily cutable, you run both pentavus and trike, running just trike should be fine, or if you want the tokens, triskelavus is the best (and worst) of both worlds. Vamp is an easy cut, as you mentioned (I'd keep the blue one as you're usually searching for those targets anyway).
First of all, it appears to me that you're playing library wrong. When you have library in play, you are the control deck. Play in a fashion that guarantees you keep it active and you will reap the benefits. For example, if you play loa, pass the turn and they cast recall, let it resolve even if you have the force (assuming they're some sort of control deck as well). LoA will draw more cards in the long run, and an active loa wins games. Ensure that it's active, activate it at smart times, and you just gain overwhelming card advantage.
Yea. I don't disagree that when LOA is active on the first turn and you can keep it that way it's devestating, but it does come at a short term cost. I'm not convinced one way or another yet between it, the jar, fact or fiction, and some combonation thereof, but LOA certainly has it's drawbacks. In my experience in the lategame as a topdeck it's just dead. Once we get down past 5 cards we don't see 7 for the rest of the game.
Also, don't cut thirsts, they are the engine. They do everything the deck needs to power it, card advantage, tempo advantage, etc.
I know I've gotta be wrong with my feelings about Thirst, but I just get so irritated when I spend 3 mana to effectively cycle 3 cards. The problem with it is that it gets worse as your hand gets smaller. It's just not very good when you're at 1 or 2 cards. My thinking with the Fact is that it does generate real card advantage, and for only 1 more mana. I'm not saying cut all four thirsts, and like I originally said I think I'll settle on a list with 4 thirsts, but I am entertaining ideas of switching a single thirst for a FoF in the list I presented above.
You do have other rooms to make cuts as well: 1 welder is easily cutable
Is it really? I really, really like my welders. They help win a lot of games, and I really don't mind having 2 or 3 a game. Beyond recurring my artifacts, they're good offensive cards against other artifact based decks, especially in conjunction with the shaman.
1 top is easily cutable, you run both pentavus and trike, running just trike should be fine, or if you want the tokens, triskelavus is the best (and worst) of both worlds. Vamp is an easy cut, as you mentioned (I'd keep the blue one as you're usually searching for those targets anyway).
I'm thinking of chopping the 2nd top and the vampiric tutor for two trinket mages. In theory, they help our aggro game a lot; they will tend to provide acceleration, which is good, and they're also nice chump blockers.
What about the two mindslavers? I see a lot of lists with these, but I don't really understand why.
Even if thirst isn't creating card advantage (which it generally does, or should), it is creating a large gain in tempo. Make sure you aren't playing cards unnecessarily. For instance, if you draw a mox, don't play it unless you have to. This type of play style makes both tfk and library better. The same with lands, that is, if you have no other lands in play, you shouldn't necessarily play a land in your hand unless you need to. Just be conservative in general.
This translates to welders. You aren't playing an aggressive role. Welders facilitate the win, and are good, but can also clutter your hand when you need more relevant cards. In this sense, you really don't need 4, and I advise going to 3.
Mages are legit, although they alter the play style. You will also need a trinket-box, EE etc.
Mindslavers are a good card. They win you the game if they actiavate. To this end, many play 2 to increase the odds of drawing them, essentially replacing one of your threats with another slaver. There isn't really an argument against running 2, I prefer 1 as I find it sufficient.
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1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sensei's Diving Top
Artifact Creatures
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelavus
Creatures
4 Goblin Welder
1 Gorilla Shaman
Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Force Of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Thirst For Knowledge
2 Mindslaver
Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
Basic Lands
3 Island
Lands
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Library of Alexandria
Legendary Lands
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Lava Dart
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Firespout
1 The Abyss
2 Rack and Ruin
3 Thoughtseize
Yep, Leman was right.
I am going to leave this here, as I do feel it is a valid topic for the Competitive forum. I will update the list on this post when a more well defined post-apocalypse list is determined.
RE: #2: A couple of MD Tormod's Crypt and some Jailers/Layline of the Void in the board may help?
RE: #3: Losing 3x Brainstorms isn't good, but as you said, the deck doesn't lose like Flash.dec and CS won't really miss the other cards including Merchant Scroll. I usually only played one of it anyway before B/R.
Also, Gifts Ungiven could/should replace Fact or Fiction maybe.
I would go
-3 brainstorm
+1 ponder
+1 fetch land
+1 tutor of some kind. vamp or gifts.
My own thoughts on the archetype:
Sensei's Diving Top is really good, definitely better than jank like ponder, as it serves a similar function, but is both more permanent and an artifact. Not to mention it does tricky welder shenanigans.
The deck will need a good amount of yard hate maindeck, at least a crypt or two. Ichorid historically eats this deck alive.
Shaman is likely good again with advents in artifact mana and in hate like chalice and null rod.
Fire/Ice is also good again, creatures will be coming back since fish and shops lose very little, and combo will have to move to stuff like confidant as a primary draw engine. That or revert to something like IT, but without bstorm that seems like it loses something in transition.
Control Slaver did take a hit in Scroll, as most modern variants used it, but that is easily alleviated.
I'll see if I can think of anything else later.
I would take out Pentavus and put Darksteel Colossus in instead tho, and maybe take out one Mindslaver as well and add another Triskelavus/Triskelion or Sundering Titan or just Tormod's Crypt.
I tried Night's Whisper in this deck and it was actually pretty good. So maybe this card can replace the Merchant Scrolls and Brainstorms together with Sensei's Divining Top.
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
2 Sensei's Divining Top
Artifact Creatures:
1 Triskelion
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Mindslaver
Creatures:
4 Goblin Welder
2 Gorilla Shaman
Instants:
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fire/Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
Lands:
4 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
3 Flooded Strands
2 Polluted Delta
Legendary Lands:
1 Tolarian Academy
I love duress effects, I think they're the absolute nuts. That said, I dropped them here. I would like to find room for three, but I don't see it right now. In my playtesting of the deck, I didn't have a strong enough draw engine. I was often topdecking hoping to pick up a threat. My board would be pretty strong, but I would be spent. I gave up the duress effects in order to strengthen the draw engine.
I dropped the lotus petal. Aside from enabling a first turn mana drain, I just don't like the petal. It's nice with yawg's will, but I figured a second top was a better choice.
I also dropped a mindslaver to make room for the draw engine. I'm working off the concept that a more robust draw engine will give me the slaver when I need it.
There are some other changes, most notably the gorilla shamans, which I can't attest to since I haven't yet tested.
I think this is a reasonable starting place for a decklist, but I believe it definitely needs improvement. Let me know what you think.
Where is your Tormod's Crypt Main? IMO they are a must at the moment.
also, It's been a while since I've used Triskelion in this deck, but it seems to be the norm now days. I on the other hand use Triskelavus instead. Which one of these is the better today and why?
finaly, I also prefer having 2 Mindslavers in the build because it just wins you games.
I would probably drop the 1x Fact or Fiction for it.
You could also drop 1 Mana Drain + 2 Shamans for 3 Duress (If you really want Duress in the deck)
How were you using the slaver, and did you need a soft lock to win with it or did one turn usually do the trick?
That doesn't mean you auto win, but you have messed up their game enough for you to win the game or even time to build up a soft-lock for slaver.
Also, I'm toying with Intuition. I'm having trouble finding which set of the more expensive draws/tutors to play. I'm between Intuition, Fact or Fiction and Gifts Ungiven. I can't quite figure which get included and which get excluded.
I don't know about the Jester's Cap, but I personally run Library of Alexandria in my build.
This is what I've been testing, and what I'll be playing in a Jersey tournament tomorrow:
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
Creatures:
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskellion
3 Goblin Welder
Spells:
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Mindslaver
1 Ponder
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Fire/Ice
1 Echoing Truth
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Brainstorm
1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Rack and Ruin
3 Extirpate
3 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Leyline Of The Void
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Platinum Angel
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Thoughtseize
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Mindslaver
1 Triskelion
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Memory Jar
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
1 Counterbalance
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Intuition
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Future Sight
1 Tinker
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fire//Ice
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Island
3 Extirpate
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Jester's Cap
1 Platinum Angel
1 Darksteel Colussus
2 Arcane Laboratory
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Pyroclasm
Round 1: Bomberman (0-2)
Round 2: A Fish build that looked a lot like Nauts without the Mask/naughts (1-2)
Round 3: Long (2-1)
Round 4: Same deck as round 2, different pilot (2-0)
Round 5: Grim Long (2-1)
For a 10/24 finish. My round 3 should have been 2-0, which would have brought me into 9th or 8th. I had a totally locked position with an arcane laboratory and then proceeded to cast about 8 spells in one turn. My opponent didn't even notice until I said something. Doh!
I don't feel so terrible about my first two losses as I did when they happened. Both decks top 8'd, and the guy from round 2 said most of his sideboard was commited to beating slaver. He brought in 12 cards against me second game and third games. Sower of Temptation robbed my colossus both games. I think I would have been able to win these if I had a titan instead of an angel sideboard and tinkered for that instead of the colossus.
The future sight was Junk. I was playing around with it, and I was hoping it was gonna be awesome, but it's just a win more card. It can go off pretty bad, especially with a top, but it usually only does when you're already winning.
The Counterbalance was very nice. I was always happy to see it. It helped my 5th round match against Long a bunch, and it helped my 4th round match against the BGu fish variant a little.
I like the Gorilla Shaman main deck. He messes up other people's games pretty badly and he can kill one of my own moxes if I need to get an active welder/top. He's also a monster beat stick.
The triskelion was marginally useful this tourny. It helped me out in round 4, and that's about it. I'm not convinced he comes out yet, but he might. At home playtesting against things like goblins he's a house. I'm pretty sure he's better than the penatvius or the triskelavus. Might be a good idea to put him in the sideboard and put the Titan main deck.
I love the Memory Jar. I wouldn't trade it for anything.
Intuition has been very good so far. I don't like getting 3 welders with it, but I do like getting something like {top, Jar, Skelion} or some other set of bomb artifacts when I already have the welder in play. I might try to include 2, but I'm not crazy about using it for anything but the artifact sets. {Will, Recall, Time Walk} or {Will, Recall, Tinker} just don't really do it for me. I might have to get better at using it though.
The main deck rack and ruin never came in useful. Might've just been the matches I played. The Fire//Ice, Tormod's Crypt, Rack and Ruin and echoing truth are all metagame slots, so they can change easily.
I never got an active library, but having it never hurt me. I'm unsure about this card either way.
I wasn't blown away by my sideboard, there were some soft spots. I was very happy with the arcane laboratory. I really like the red elemental blasts just because they side in against a lot of random stuff. I wasn't happy with the platinum angel. People can just answer her if they need to. I'd have been much better served by a Sundering Titan, i think it would have won me another game and possibly the match.
The Jester's Cap was nice. I never got to use it, but it would have been very useful in my matches against long.
The second darksteel colossus was there for painters servant. I'm not sure if I like this plan or not.
The extirpates were moderately useful. Might be a soft spot.
You might notice I took out the ponder and brainstorm. I'm sure the ponder is just junk that needs to go, I'm not sure about the brainstorm either way. I probably should include it.
How did you like your fact or fiction and Titan main deck?
Why only 3 welders, and what do you think about the petal? In my testing it was just junk.
Would there be room for a single Recoup? Or is this unnecessary?
I haven't tried fact or fiction, but I expect it will be very good. I'll probably be putting that in place of the Future Sight to try it out.
Why do Will, Recall, Walk, Tinker? Replace two of those with DT and VT and you might get somewhere, since tutoring up will lets you get it all back anyway.
That was me! Yeah, I have to pay more attention to stuff like that. You would have won that one if the game state hadn't been ****ed.
Even better with Gifts.
Will, Tinker, Recoup + Robot or Walk/Recall or whatever.
Maybe use Recoup instead of Fact or Fiction in your build JoshuaD?
This is certainly true. The point though, is that it never does what I want it do. It doesn't do well as a draw engine, it doesn't do well as a tutor, and it doesn't do well at loading up my graveyard. It just seems substandard in all of the places I want it to perform. Sure, it fills all three roles where other cards may only fill one or two, but it does each one so badly that it hardly does it at all.
I also don't like giving my opponent the final choice. I much prefer the case in Fact or Fiction where he divides the piles and I get the choice. It lets me take the optimal line.
D3@D: I'll have to test it out. I'm having trouble theorizing about that card. I'll let you know how it performs in testing. Have you tried it at all?
I'm a little hesitant to add any more graveyard dependency to the deck; it gets hated on hard already. If anything, I would like to move in the direction of having more serious non-graveyard based threats other than tinker.
And can anyone tell me anything about lotus petal? Steve Menendian is horny as hell for it, and it just looks like wasted space to me.
I'm also gonna be playing around with Aether Spellbomb and pyrite spellbomb. I'm not sure what to think of them just yet.
Another card that is all theory, but just an idea I just got right now is Show and Tell since you asked for a different non-yard-dependant-card other than tinker.
You can if you have it in your hand. Play Robot or Mindslaver for 3mana. but it gives your opponent a chance to play some sweet stuff as well. You have to be sure he doesn't got a better play than you (maybe after seeing his hand with Duress or Seize?)
Recoup might be ocay, but I'd stay away from show and tell. Both cards indicate to me that you're playing the deck too aggressively. You don't need to win asap, you want to win later. Robots in your hand are better discarded to tfk than show and telled, the card advantage will win you the game later. Late game, you should be able to just cast them, which means you don't have to give you ropponant an opportunity to put a counter-proof beast of his own into play. Even recoup; you don't need to win by means of comboing, so its doubtful that gifts should be played in that manner, and the card isn't spectacular outside of it, as its slow, and late game you should be winning anyway (if you've arived there, considering you're the control deck typically).
From the converstaion presented so far, it is clear to me that you aren't playing gifts correctly. You don't get the 4 best cards in your deck. Its highly situational, and rarely will that pile be correct. The trick with gifts is that you DO get the final choice, unless your opponant screw up. You simply need to obtain a combination of cards in which you know what you will be given; that is, depending on what you need, create a situation where your opponant must give you 2 specific cards. For instance, if you really want will, go for tinker/recall/tutor/tutor. If they give you tiker/recall, you'll just win, and if they give you either tutor, you can tutor up will. This is a prime example. Other times you may just need more mana next turn, or some more counter power, or whatever. Whatever the case, don't play it like a combo card. It isn't gifts from gifts, its gifts in slaver. Also, gifts makes for a great burried alive ;).
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
//Land Mana (14)
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Mindslaver
1 Pentavus
1 Triskelion
//Disruption (11)
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Echoing Truth
//Draw Engine (10)
1 Ancestrall Recall
1 Gifts Ungiven
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Memory Jar
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
//Other Broken Stuff (7)
4 Goblin Welder
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
I'm considering losing one thirst for knowledge for a fact or fiction. I don't really like thirst for knowledge in multiples. They don't provide enough card advantage. The deck is very card hungry in the early and mid game, and 1 Ancestral Recall doesn't really cut it. I know this is probably wrong, but I'm considering it. Fact does provide cards en-masse, and this deck is sorely missing raw card advantage. I'll probably settle on 4 thirsts with both the gifts and the fact, but the deck is very tight.
I'm also considering dropping either the vampiric tutor or the mystical tutor for the same reasons. This deck loves it's tutors, but card disadvantage hurts a lot, especially against the aggro decks. I wish I could run something like Grim Tutor, but the 2 black is prohobitive.
I switched out the Library for the Memory Jar for this reason as well. The Library just isn't active enough. The only time it seems to come into play is in your starting hand, and even there I'm not crazy about it. You need to play around it and even then it'll only get you a card or two, and then it's dead the rest of the game. This is especially true when you're running DSC as an early win condition. I'm not convinced the Memory Jar is the right direction, but my biggest problem with the deck right now is that it just needs raw card advantage. Memory Jar certainly addresses this.
I'd like to add a second Gorilla Shaman, he's very very mean, but that may be overkill. There are a lot of maindeck answers that I'd like to include (Fire//Ice, Rack and Ruin, etc) and I think diversity might outweigh redundancy here. They also don't help the aggro match up too much, so this really might be overkill.
I also want to play around with adding a 25th mana source, probably an island. Although, I am considering the seats of Synod for synergy with the rest of the deck. I'm not really sure what to think of these either way.
The Lotus Petal is a very strong card. I underestimated this. It will set you up with an active Mana Drain first turn about 6% of the time, and it synergizes well with the rest of the deck. This was a very tempting card for me to cut when I first started playing this deck, but I'm now a very big fan of it. I would not cut this.
I've also come around on Gifts Ungiven. It requires more thoughtful play, but it is very strong. It's very valuable to note that you can entomb two Robots with it without putting any cards in your hand. Because the search has a delimiter (the cards have to have different names), you can fail to find two cards, and choose something like {Mindslaver, Pentavus} and both will be put in the 'yard.
I've avoided sideboard discussion in this post, but I'm seriously considering an Empty the Warrens there as a second non-graveyard based win for games 2 and 3. This deck gets very sad when it's up against a leyline or even a crypt. I'm not sure if ETW is the right choice, but I'd like something beyond the Colossus and hardcasting things.
Overall this decklist is much tighter than the one I posted previously. It doesn't tend to blow up as much, but I think with careful and considerate play it just wins more games. In my limited testing so far, this list requires much more precise play, but it can result in games won that were otherwise unwinable.
Also, don't cut thirsts, they are the engine. They do everything the deck needs to power it, card advantage, tempo advantage, etc.
You do have other rooms to make cuts as well: 1 welder is easily cutable, 1 top is easily cutable, you run both pentavus and trike, running just trike should be fine, or if you want the tokens, triskelavus is the best (and worst) of both worlds. Vamp is an easy cut, as you mentioned (I'd keep the blue one as you're usually searching for those targets anyway).
Yea. I don't disagree that when LOA is active on the first turn and you can keep it that way it's devestating, but it does come at a short term cost. I'm not convinced one way or another yet between it, the jar, fact or fiction, and some combonation thereof, but LOA certainly has it's drawbacks. In my experience in the lategame as a topdeck it's just dead. Once we get down past 5 cards we don't see 7 for the rest of the game.
I know I've gotta be wrong with my feelings about Thirst, but I just get so irritated when I spend 3 mana to effectively cycle 3 cards. The problem with it is that it gets worse as your hand gets smaller. It's just not very good when you're at 1 or 2 cards. My thinking with the Fact is that it does generate real card advantage, and for only 1 more mana. I'm not saying cut all four thirsts, and like I originally said I think I'll settle on a list with 4 thirsts, but I am entertaining ideas of switching a single thirst for a FoF in the list I presented above.
Is it really? I really, really like my welders. They help win a lot of games, and I really don't mind having 2 or 3 a game. Beyond recurring my artifacts, they're good offensive cards against other artifact based decks, especially in conjunction with the shaman.
I'm thinking of chopping the 2nd top and the vampiric tutor for two trinket mages. In theory, they help our aggro game a lot; they will tend to provide acceleration, which is good, and they're also nice chump blockers.
What about the two mindslavers? I see a lot of lists with these, but I don't really understand why.
This translates to welders. You aren't playing an aggressive role. Welders facilitate the win, and are good, but can also clutter your hand when you need more relevant cards. In this sense, you really don't need 4, and I advise going to 3.
Mages are legit, although they alter the play style. You will also need a trinket-box, EE etc.
Mindslavers are a good card. They win you the game if they actiavate. To this end, many play 2 to increase the odds of drawing them, essentially replacing one of your threats with another slaver. There isn't really an argument against running 2, I prefer 1 as I find it sufficient.