Well, I hate to say never shackles. That kind of logic shuts off innovation, but strategically I think those points are sound until we have a reason to reevaluate them.
I don't think AK are a great idea in Slaver. It should be noted that my logic in this area is not unfounded; I don't know if you were playing at the time, but original slaver lists ran the full intuition/ak engine. This was eventually removed for several reasons. The engine itself is too slow, and thirst already serves this function late game. On their own, AKs are good late game, and okay midgame, but very poor early game. This is the key problem.
The function of planning is to BE an early game card. Its a card you want to play turn 1 for the tempo gain, and its primary function, from a strategic standpoint, is to create this early game tempo which otherwise makes slaver very clunky; that is, it smooths the deck out.
AK doesn't serve this function. It just strengthens the already strong late game. The first one cast gains negative tempo. This goes against what we want from a theoretical standpoint. We've lost brainstorm, and need something to fill its function in the deck; an early game tempo boost that smooths out an otherwise clunky design. Plannings does this effectively by digging 3 deep, getting the card you want, and being strong right off the bat, while simultaneously not bad late game, digging further. In this respect, I'm still of the opinion that it's position is optimal in regards to replacing it with AK. Whisper has some valid considerations, but its not-blueness and its slightly less tempo oriented nature makes me lean towards planning, but it does warrant research, methinks.
While I was playing Vintage at the time CS was "invented", I didn't pick up the deck right away, so I must have missed the time it had Intuition / AK. (Although I've heard something about that in the past)
What you're saying sounds logical as usual, but I have to try the card out for myself (When I find the time) just to see if Theory > Practice or vice versa. And I wasn't planning on adding Intuition in the deck either, it would have been between Intuition and Gifts Ungiven in that case.
With all that's been said lately, maybe something like
3x Night's Whisper + 1x Ponder could be a solution for those who don't got copies of Strategic Planning? But if I'm not mistaken, NW has seen play in CS in the past as well, perhaps even in Demars's Burning Slaver list??
Planning may be the optimal card choice at the moment. But the card is extremely rare and now that its one of the hottest cards to get at the moment, it would be more problematic to secure copies for my own.
I would like to share this build I found online. I put this deck together, and with only a few games in tonight against my buddy did fairly well. It may be a little out dated, but it's something to check out.
Stragetic Planning is in my {10 proxy} range and will give that a shot soon.
You are dead on Glix about your Logic on CS, and thanks for imput about S.Plannings.
Madrid Place 1st 06-30-08 40 participants 6 rounds of Swiss
That list is fairly standard fair for pre-plannings technology. Essentially, plannings replaces sensei's divining tops, vampiric tutor, and a welder.
Although top was originally hailed as the replacement for BS, in practice it has proven to be a huge tempo sink that very rarely accomplishes the same goal (I found this during testing, as did the innovators who built strategic slaver). Often, you didn't want to be spending the mana and time stacking the top cards, you just wanted to through most of them away; in this manner, top wasn't gaining the tempo it needed, it was not functioning like the bs/fetch replacement we theorized it would. Vampiric Tutor is a tempo trade as well, and since CS often boards this out, as do most non-combo decks that run it, its an easy cut. Being black and card disadvantage doesn't help its odds. The other welder is also easy to cut.
I disagree with Rushing River, I feel echoing truth is a much more obvious inclusion, having many more functions at a lower cost (importantly, etw tokens). Fire/Ice is alright, but the way the meta is shaping up, I'm not sure I'd want it. It can't kill painter, fish is on a downswing, and slaver decks are purposefully reducing the number of valid targets so that often it'll only be a 1 for 1 trade anyway; I'd prefer something like R&R more often methinks, or maybe some other meta specific card, depending on what the meta is looking like.
D3@D: Yeah, whisper saw play play, mostly be team reflection a few years ago, and even going through the gush unrestrictions; it is hardly a terrible inclusion, but I think if we had been forced to search for innovation and found plannings, it would have been run in whisper's stead even then. I can't be sure; as I said, whisper vs plannings is the most interesting debate, one which I really feel deserves testing, but I will say that in testing, it seems that more often is the case where I'm perfectly willing to through away 2 or more of the 3 cards, and digging the extra card has proven more important tempo wise. However, testing is fairly limited at this point, and I can't be sure of how often the extra card would be relevent.
Oh, also regarding shacklemagic's posted list; moreso than the planning aspect of neo slaver, I am impressed by strategic slaver's board. The wasteland/sphere aspect is incredibly strong right now, and very innovative.
Now that you mention it, I too am impressed with the Strategic Slaver's sideboard. I don't think I would be over too much over the top by saying that the sideboard was more a factor for the two lists success rather than the inclusion of 4x Strategic Planning.
I'm not dismissing plannings at all, in fact, I think combined with Crucible + Waste/strip you get a pretty good "team".
You can easier dump lands drawn from SP just to play them with Crucible netting you a virtually draw 2 cards and discard 1 card from SP.
Also, I agree that Rushing River seem kind of weak nowdays, and should be Echoing Truth and/or Rack and Ruin
personally I like having Fire//Ice but I would play Rack and Ruin before it if I had to make a choice. With Triskelion/Triskelavus paired with Fire//Ice you have a pretty large range of creatures you are now able to kill. I play vs alot of Welder.decs so maybe it's just me.
Now I hope I don't bump heads here, but wasn't Echoing Trueth the long time staple for CS? I think Pablo David Diaz {the guy that won the tourney} was thinking outside the box using Rush to bounce 2 on board threats {I think 1 game he bounced his own 2 Top's to hand netting 2 pure cards}, and with that thought in mind towards the token factor wouldn't pyroclasim would fit the bill? {Zealot in Dredge isn't played heavy on the big boy scene anymore}
I have 4 out of the P-9 and when I get to go play in tourney's I try to go to ones that allow proxy's ofcourse, so the Stragetic Planning's are in after all the positive comments. Now if I can only find some that would be greeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaattttttttt.
In
Stragetic Planning x4
Out you say.
Goblin Welder x1
Sensi's, Diving Top x2 {I'll miss you guys lol}
Vampiric Tutor x1 {Completely Understand your Logic}
Fire/Ice stays in because I'm a huge fan of this all-purpose card, but even though Pablo won the tourney Echoing Trueth is back in the deck.
Thinking outside the box is all fine and good, but what does Rushing River really offer that truth doesn't? For instance, rushing rivering two tops is less card advantage than truthing them, and costs more mana. Most decks now have streamlined threats, and diversification is more rare, in this vein, truth also deals with multiple tokens, and even if clasm does it better, more options is a benefit regardless. Even then, against something like combo, you're going to want truth more than river, as it deals with both tokens and things like tinker and other tricks, in addition to costing less mana and therefore being active faster.
I mean, I just don't see it. Originally, river was played because it circumvented misdirection and could bounce both oath angels. The prior is less relevent now, and the laster is irrelevent now. Furthermore, we have EtW and Bridge now.
Damn...... well spoken Glix! It's nice to hear someone with a opinion that has meaningful information behind it. If I would have just thought about that one for a min I would have noticed the Trueth could bounce the Top's as well LOL, but anyways I do thank you for your points you post.
I have a Question about Crucible of Worlds? If I do play the stripe mine in place for the LoA than what do I take out to fit in CoW {I'm using the deck I posted here at the moment}? Gush is gone so it might not be a bad idea like that member said.
Thinking outside the box is all fine and good, but what does Rushing River really offer that truth doesn't? For instance, rushing rivering two tops is less card advantage than truthing them, and costs more mana. Most decks now have streamlined threats, and diversification is more rare, in this vein, truth also deals with multiple tokens, and even if clasm does it better, more options is a benefit regardless. Even then, against something like combo, you're going to want truth more than river, as it deals with both tokens and things like tinker and other tricks, in addition to costing less mana and therefore being active faster.
I mean, I just don't see it. Originally, river was played because it circumvented misdirection and could bounce both oath angels. The prior is less relevent now, and the laster is irrelevent now. Furthermore, we have EtW and Bridge now.
I made the changes, and it has been ok. I enjoy vintage and have been playing for years {aggro-shop mainly}. I remember selling my workshops two months before the B/R list to buy drains and gush staples {I almost had a heart attack thinking about how much they would go up too once I found out the format changed}. Just to to see that nothing has changed and drain decks in all forms have a strong grip in T-1 {just an opinion}.
I have to admit storm is nice too, but CS is just out-right an unfair deck! I must know how this stands up to dredge if anyone could tell me. I have a Ichorid deck but sadly my friend isn't the smartest guy on the block and can't run it smoothly.
Last question if anyone can answer is this..........is CS a stronger deck now after the B/R list? appears to be like a fine whine just getting better with age, and sadly I'm just getting into the bottle and feel like a minor drinking LOL joke {meaning it's not a easy deck to pick up and just play, and takes timed foresight}
I'm not 100% sure about this answer but CS isn't necessarily stronger now than before, but if the case is that Brainstorm really made other decks (Combo specially) a tad slower and without Gush/Bond draw engine, things got a bit slower, CS now can compete with the pace of the format and become the control deck of choice again. And with the discovery of Strategic Planning, you get a more consistent and streamlined Slaver deck, giving you the ability to digg for cards like a pseudo Brainstorm except that it also helps you put some necessary cards into your graveyard.
One thing I haven't personally experienced yet is that I at first thought that Duress and the likes would become much more effective post restrictions of Brainstorms, but I haven't seen much of those at least where I play.
I could need some help. Some friends of mine would like to go to a T1 tourney in the near future and they asked me to join the party. Now, I avoided Vintage so far for the general reasons (too fast, too expensive, stagnating format). So with not much hope I trolled the forums and T8-lists, looking for a deck I'd be willing to play. Eventually I came across CS and tried it out on MWS. The deck really fits my playstyle, but the inexperience with the deck and the format gets me from time to time (well, everytime the deck doesnt win by itself, actually...). I'm able to make 5 proxies, and can prolly arrange all non-power cards. I'd be glad over some advice.
As far as I know, there will be mainly aggroshop, oath, stax and some wet blue (fish) and mean red guys (gobs) at the tourney. so there's nearly no combo, mind you.
- What are the key cards in the more important match-ups? What do I have to expect from these decks (only played nearly casual T1-decks so far...)?
- In this meta, whats more devasting: UR-slaver with magus of the moon or 'standard' URb for more tutor power and overrated will? <3 magus
- With 5 proxies, what should I prox? I tested with lotus, mox ruby, sapphire and jet + ancestral recall. I'd like to play time walk, but I'm really not sure if its worth to give up a mox for it in welder deck... if I go back to URb, jet is obvious, but I'm really not sure in the UR version.
- Mindslaver win... never pulled it off so far. Tell me your favourite slaver-win-story =) and while you're at it, tell me what you do most of the time with your slave
After the first few mws-games, btw, I found out that the format isnt as fast i thought and now I can say good bye to the 'general reasons not to play vintage' - I was full of prejudice!
I really hate to say this, but if you don't have power, and there are only 5 proxies, its going to be really rough running this deck. Slaver is a house of cards built on artifact acceleration, and without it it is significantly weaker. Not to mention, that probably means you don't have Strategic Plannings or Mana Drains (although I could be wrong), the later of which is incredibly necessary to compete. With only 5 proxies, and no power, I would personally just play Ichorid (who needs skill?).
That being said, I'll try to help you out:
No combo is extremely odd in the modern meta, but that could be a function of proxies or something.
To give you a general idea of strategy, the cards you want to be resolving are TFK and broken elements; use control elements to counter necessary cards. Against shops, you use Mana Drain to leverage tempo adavantage; the mana from it is as neccessary as the countering functino and will ususally get you over spheres etc. Against fish, drains are fairly weak, but try to counter what you can if its relevent. Other than that, there are lots of "tricks" that only show up in vintage, but there's too much theory and ideas for me to express here; do some digging in the archives here, on scg, etc.
Never, ever say the word "overrated" before one of, if not the, most powerful cards in the game. Will will actually litterally just win the game. Like, if it resolves, you just win the game the majority of the time, if you play it smart. Its just a disgusting card. To that end, URb is significanly better just because of will. Furthermore, magus is fairly ineffective now. It will usually hurt you as much or more than most other decks.
Typically, slaver doesn't "litterally" win the game, but effectivley does so. Against most decks, you can usually really screw them over. Its hard to explain a given instance of this, but its pretty common. Even if you don't leverage that much advantage, you can usually win through recurring slaver each turn. Usually, Slaver just adds inevitablity to the deck, really.
But honestly, given the proxies and given your poposed meta, I would highly, highly recomend Ichorid.
Uff, I can't stand Ichorid... If theres really no way to play this semi-powered I'll reevaluate my options, but in the first place my goal is to make it playable.
I understand that the artifacts are key, but next to the 5 proxies I have access to Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Sol Ring and Tolarian Academy... Chrome Mox too, but Im worried over the card-disadvantage. does it deserve a spot with these circumstances? or Lotus Petal?
I see the importance of the Drains and luckily our playgroup has a playset. Unfortunately I do not have any Plans and as there aren't any good replacements, I'm testing trinket mages with silver bullets.
You're right, I probably have to drop the Magus-twist. Just liked the idea. And the 2 tutors I gain this way could help to make my not-full-powered version a bit more playable. Of course Will is very powerful too. If i could get my hands on another power for the tourney, should I get another Mox or Time Walk?
I'll change my list to URb and test it tomorrow with my friend. I'll tell you with what we came up.
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I'd recommend the mox, they're more heavily played in more decks, and more important in this one.
Don't do chrome mox, lotus petal is a fine mox replacement though. You don't want to throw away card advantage in the manner of chrome mox, but lotus both enable turn one drain and works well with will.
Mages, Night's Whisper, and sensei's divning top are all plausible replacments for plannings.
I know I'm going to get booooo for this one lol. The 4 slots that are being taken with Planning. Well I put in 4x ThinkTwice, and the funny part is it feels ok. Just trying to work with new cards.
1 U gives replacement card.
flash back adds new card.
silly thought I know.
I had the name wrong, my bad!
Fine it was a Horrible idea and I see that Lmao {Lat-Nam's Legacy}, but could a mini-draw spells like Opt be useful?
I mean hear me out ok.
For a one drop it's a instant it allows you to look and bottom stack {if you want} the top card that may not be of use at the current time. Ofcourse than you get a replacement card. Some input is welcome, and this is for guys that can't find/or spend the money to get Stragetic Planning.
So, here's my unpowered list with 5 proxies. I'm still not sure if the tormod's crypt main is the right call, but If not i'd like to fit a 3rd one in the side. I'd also like to add an Empty the warrens to the SB, but I don't know what to cut for it. Spell Snare seems to be a non-standard SB-card, but I could imagine that its great against oath and maybe fish (which I both expect to be there in high numbers). I'd like to fit in the pithing needle as a nice card against bazaar, grindstone, lavamancers, vial et cetera. E.E. could solve this problems too (and can solve some other problems as well), but my little Welders prefer the needle...
Last friday I tested an afternoon against a homebrew r/g/w Zoo and the game always ended with either an attacking platinum angel or a swords to plowshares pointing at said angel. whenever the angel got sworded, I wished I had a triskelion rather then a Triskelavus in the deck, as the triskelavus was just to slow to clear the board. In fact, I'm thinking about exchange the DSC with a trisk, as can't think of a situation where I want him over a trisk respectively over the Plat Angel. Is this something I should be worried about or is platinum angel anyway the way to go?
and how the hell do I sideboard with this deck? Against what comes colossus in? and what do you take out? I'm overstrained... need your help =)
First off your deck needs a bunch of help {and I'm new at slaver and can see that one}, and why do I keep seeing guys posting decks that are only using 5 PROXYS? I mean every non-SANC tourney I have been to allows 10...........Wizards-SANC allows non ofcourse, but I'm just curious. Is 5 proxys the common in small towns and villages {lol that part's a joke} but still a good question?
I heard that 10 Proxies is quite common in the U.S., but as far as I know (don't know much about vintage, though...) in europe you'll see much more 5-proxy-tourneys. I've never seen a 10 proxy tourney here so far. It's probably just a matter of time until organizers switch to 10 proxies too... I heard the europeans are quite good in copying the US-trends. Until then I'll have to play with my 5 proxies and I appreciate any help to make my semi-powered deck as viable as possible. So, what can I do to improve my list?
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Ok, game 3 ended up in Ingot Chewer Beatdown (I was playing Painter) but the deck was really an "all the answers" kind of deck. I like the way it played (even against me) and the possibility to strip lock your opponent is just toog good to pass up. I'd opt in favor of Wastelands in the sideboard instead of Blood Moons, but it's pretty much the 1 change I'd make.
The interesting thing about us legacy players is that we consider Force of Will, Dark Ritual, Blood Moon, Tarmogoyf and Swords to Plowshare to be fair.
I'm not convinced on the 3x Misdirection though. I find even one a bit hard to place in my list. But it was probably a meta-call (?)
I've been using Night's Whisper again now as a 3of. and so far its been ok. Better than Sensei's Divining Top Imo. However, there have been times that I wished they were blue. But I think things will be better if I up my fetchland count +1 more.
I really like having Fire//Ice in my build as well as Rack and Ruin. Then again, I have a good deal of Welders.dec in my meta.
EDIT: To people using MD Crucible of Worlds has it been a useful card for you in the MD? Or is it there just because you can't find room for it in the SB? I can see it being good in Strategic Planning builds MD (Or better) Because you tend to discard more lands in the yard + the small chance of going Strip mine every turn. But without SP, you don't really have much use for it other than re-using used Fetchlands. So is this worth the slot or should it be something more useful instead?
Misdirection was good to him all day in a meta infested with painter.
Misdi your red blast into vindicating X or Y target? suuuuuure. And he told me it's the 1st thing he sided out when unnecessary. At worst it pitches to Force, or discards to Thirst. It was quite good to him but I do realise that 3 is a huge amount, and making the list I wouldn't have made that choice myself.
Crucible MD is for gift piles.
Crucible, Seat, Plats, X (Y. Will, A.Recall, T.Walk, E.tc) = win, with welder in play.
And I do like Night's Whisper better than Strategic Planning myself, but I run neither.
The interesting thing about us legacy players is that we consider Force of Will, Dark Ritual, Blood Moon, Tarmogoyf and Swords to Plowshare to be fair.
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I don't think AK are a great idea in Slaver. It should be noted that my logic in this area is not unfounded; I don't know if you were playing at the time, but original slaver lists ran the full intuition/ak engine. This was eventually removed for several reasons. The engine itself is too slow, and thirst already serves this function late game. On their own, AKs are good late game, and okay midgame, but very poor early game. This is the key problem.
The function of planning is to BE an early game card. Its a card you want to play turn 1 for the tempo gain, and its primary function, from a strategic standpoint, is to create this early game tempo which otherwise makes slaver very clunky; that is, it smooths the deck out.
AK doesn't serve this function. It just strengthens the already strong late game. The first one cast gains negative tempo. This goes against what we want from a theoretical standpoint. We've lost brainstorm, and need something to fill its function in the deck; an early game tempo boost that smooths out an otherwise clunky design. Plannings does this effectively by digging 3 deep, getting the card you want, and being strong right off the bat, while simultaneously not bad late game, digging further. In this respect, I'm still of the opinion that it's position is optimal in regards to replacing it with AK. Whisper has some valid considerations, but its not-blueness and its slightly less tempo oriented nature makes me lean towards planning, but it does warrant research, methinks.
What you're saying sounds logical as usual, but I have to try the card out for myself (When I find the time) just to see if Theory > Practice or vice versa. And I wasn't planning on adding Intuition in the deck either, it would have been between Intuition and Gifts Ungiven in that case.
With all that's been said lately, maybe something like
3x Night's Whisper + 1x Ponder could be a solution for those who don't got copies of Strategic Planning? But if I'm not mistaken, NW has seen play in CS in the past as well, perhaps even in Demars's Burning Slaver list??
Planning may be the optimal card choice at the moment. But the card is extremely rare and now that its one of the hottest cards to get at the moment, it would be more problematic to secure copies for my own.
Stragetic Planning is in my {10 proxy} range and will give that a shot soon.
You are dead on Glix about your Logic on CS, and thanks for imput about S.Plannings.
Madrid
Place 1st
06-30-08
40 participants
6 rounds of Swiss
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Jet
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring
2 Sensi's, Diving Top
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Mindslaver
1x Sundering Titan
1x Triskelavus
1x Gorilla Shaman
3x Goblin Welder
1x Brainstorm
1x Fact or Fiction
4x Force of Will
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Gifts Ungiven
1x Rushing River
4x Mana Drain
4x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Fire/Ice
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Time Walk
1x Tinker
1x Merchant Scroll
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Yawgmoth's Will
2x Island
1x Library of Alexandria
2x Polluted Delta
1x Tolarian Academy
2x Underground Sea
4x Volcanic Island
1x Duplicant
1x Razormane Masticore
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Extripate
1x Lava Dart
2x Pyroclasim
1x Red Elemental Blast
2x Rack and Ruin
1x Shattering Spree
Although top was originally hailed as the replacement for BS, in practice it has proven to be a huge tempo sink that very rarely accomplishes the same goal (I found this during testing, as did the innovators who built strategic slaver). Often, you didn't want to be spending the mana and time stacking the top cards, you just wanted to through most of them away; in this manner, top wasn't gaining the tempo it needed, it was not functioning like the bs/fetch replacement we theorized it would. Vampiric Tutor is a tempo trade as well, and since CS often boards this out, as do most non-combo decks that run it, its an easy cut. Being black and card disadvantage doesn't help its odds. The other welder is also easy to cut.
I disagree with Rushing River, I feel echoing truth is a much more obvious inclusion, having many more functions at a lower cost (importantly, etw tokens). Fire/Ice is alright, but the way the meta is shaping up, I'm not sure I'd want it. It can't kill painter, fish is on a downswing, and slaver decks are purposefully reducing the number of valid targets so that often it'll only be a 1 for 1 trade anyway; I'd prefer something like R&R more often methinks, or maybe some other meta specific card, depending on what the meta is looking like.
D3@D: Yeah, whisper saw play play, mostly be team reflection a few years ago, and even going through the gush unrestrictions; it is hardly a terrible inclusion, but I think if we had been forced to search for innovation and found plannings, it would have been run in whisper's stead even then. I can't be sure; as I said, whisper vs plannings is the most interesting debate, one which I really feel deserves testing, but I will say that in testing, it seems that more often is the case where I'm perfectly willing to through away 2 or more of the 3 cards, and digging the extra card has proven more important tempo wise. However, testing is fairly limited at this point, and I can't be sure of how often the extra card would be relevent.
Oh, also regarding shacklemagic's posted list; moreso than the planning aspect of neo slaver, I am impressed by strategic slaver's board. The wasteland/sphere aspect is incredibly strong right now, and very innovative.
I'm not dismissing plannings at all, in fact, I think combined with Crucible + Waste/strip you get a pretty good "team".
You can easier dump lands drawn from SP just to play them with Crucible netting you a virtually draw 2 cards and discard 1 card from SP.
Also, I agree that Rushing River seem kind of weak nowdays, and should be Echoing Truth and/or Rack and Ruin
personally I like having Fire//Ice but I would play Rack and Ruin before it if I had to make a choice. With Triskelion/Triskelavus paired with Fire//Ice you have a pretty large range of creatures you are now able to kill. I play vs alot of Welder.decs so maybe it's just me.
I have 4 out of the P-9 and when I get to go play in tourney's I try to go to ones that allow proxy's ofcourse, so the Stragetic Planning's are in after all the positive comments. Now if I can only find some that would be greeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaattttttttt.
In
Stragetic Planning x4
Out you say.
Goblin Welder x1
Sensi's, Diving Top x2 {I'll miss you guys lol}
Vampiric Tutor x1 {Completely Understand your Logic}
Fire/Ice stays in because I'm a huge fan of this all-purpose card, but even though Pablo won the tourney Echoing Trueth is back in the deck.
I mean, I just don't see it. Originally, river was played because it circumvented misdirection and could bounce both oath angels. The prior is less relevent now, and the laster is irrelevent now. Furthermore, we have EtW and Bridge now.
I have a Question about Crucible of Worlds? If I do play the stripe mine in place for the LoA than what do I take out to fit in CoW {I'm using the deck I posted here at the moment}? Gush is gone so it might not be a bad idea like that member said.
I have to admit storm is nice too, but CS is just out-right an unfair deck! I must know how this stands up to dredge if anyone could tell me. I have a Ichorid deck but sadly my friend isn't the smartest guy on the block and can't run it smoothly.
Last question if anyone can answer is this..........is CS a stronger deck now after the B/R list? appears to be like a fine whine just getting better with age, and sadly I'm just getting into the bottle and feel like a minor drinking LOL joke {meaning it's not a easy deck to pick up and just play, and takes timed foresight}
I'm learning alot from this thread.
One thing I haven't personally experienced yet is that I at first thought that Duress and the likes would become much more effective post restrictions of Brainstorms, but I haven't seen much of those at least where I play.
I could need some help. Some friends of mine would like to go to a T1 tourney in the near future and they asked me to join the party. Now, I avoided Vintage so far for the general reasons (too fast, too expensive, stagnating format). So with not much hope I trolled the forums and T8-lists, looking for a deck I'd be willing to play. Eventually I came across CS and tried it out on MWS. The deck really fits my playstyle, but the inexperience with the deck and the format gets me from time to time (well, everytime the deck doesnt win by itself, actually...). I'm able to make 5 proxies, and can prolly arrange all non-power cards. I'd be glad over some advice.
As far as I know, there will be mainly aggroshop, oath, stax and some wet blue (fish) and mean red guys (gobs) at the tourney. so there's nearly no combo, mind you.
- What are the key cards in the more important match-ups? What do I have to expect from these decks (only played nearly casual T1-decks so far...)?
- In this meta, whats more devasting: UR-slaver with magus of the moon or 'standard' URb for more tutor power and overrated will? <3 magus
- With 5 proxies, what should I prox? I tested with lotus, mox ruby, sapphire and jet + ancestral recall. I'd like to play time walk, but I'm really not sure if its worth to give up a mox for it in welder deck... if I go back to URb, jet is obvious, but I'm really not sure in the UR version.
- Mindslaver win... never pulled it off so far. Tell me your favourite slaver-win-story =) and while you're at it, tell me what you do most of the time with your slave
After the first few mws-games, btw, I found out that the format isnt as fast i thought and now I can say good bye to the 'general reasons not to play vintage' - I was full of prejudice!
Many thanks!
That being said, I'll try to help you out:
No combo is extremely odd in the modern meta, but that could be a function of proxies or something.
To give you a general idea of strategy, the cards you want to be resolving are TFK and broken elements; use control elements to counter necessary cards. Against shops, you use Mana Drain to leverage tempo adavantage; the mana from it is as neccessary as the countering functino and will ususally get you over spheres etc. Against fish, drains are fairly weak, but try to counter what you can if its relevent. Other than that, there are lots of "tricks" that only show up in vintage, but there's too much theory and ideas for me to express here; do some digging in the archives here, on scg, etc.
Never, ever say the word "overrated" before one of, if not the, most powerful cards in the game. Will will actually litterally just win the game. Like, if it resolves, you just win the game the majority of the time, if you play it smart. Its just a disgusting card. To that end, URb is significanly better just because of will. Furthermore, magus is fairly ineffective now. It will usually hurt you as much or more than most other decks.
Typically, slaver doesn't "litterally" win the game, but effectivley does so. Against most decks, you can usually really screw them over. Its hard to explain a given instance of this, but its pretty common. Even if you don't leverage that much advantage, you can usually win through recurring slaver each turn. Usually, Slaver just adds inevitablity to the deck, really.
But honestly, given the proxies and given your poposed meta, I would highly, highly recomend Ichorid.
I understand that the artifacts are key, but next to the 5 proxies I have access to Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Sol Ring and Tolarian Academy... Chrome Mox too, but Im worried over the card-disadvantage. does it deserve a spot with these circumstances? or Lotus Petal?
I see the importance of the Drains and luckily our playgroup has a playset. Unfortunately I do not have any Plans and as there aren't any good replacements, I'm testing trinket mages with silver bullets.
You're right, I probably have to drop the Magus-twist. Just liked the idea. And the 2 tutors I gain this way could help to make my not-full-powered version a bit more playable. Of course Will is very powerful too.
If i could get my hands on another power for the tourney, should I get another Mox or Time Walk?
I'll change my list to URb and test it tomorrow with my friend. I'll tell you with what we came up.
Don't do chrome mox, lotus petal is a fine mox replacement though. You don't want to throw away card advantage in the manner of chrome mox, but lotus both enable turn one drain and works well with will.
Mages, Night's Whisper, and sensei's divning top are all plausible replacments for plannings.
I'll see what else I can think of.
1 U gives replacement card.
flash back adds new card.
silly thought I know.
I had the name wrong, my bad!
Unfortunately, that still sucks.
I mean hear me out ok.
For a one drop it's a instant it allows you to look and bottom stack {if you want} the top card that may not be of use at the current time. Ofcourse than you get a replacement card. Some input is welcome, and this is for guys that can't find/or spend the money to get Stragetic Planning.
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Engineered Explosives / P. Needle
1 tormod's crypt / P. Needle
1 senseis divining top
1 Lotus Petal
Artifact Creatures
1 Triskelavus or Triskelion or Pentavus?
1 Platinum Angel
1 Sundering Titan
Legendary Artifacts
1 Mindslaver (maybe better in side for main trisk / DSC?)
Creatures
3 Goblin Welder
1 Gorilla Shaman
3 trinket mage
Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fact Or Fiction
1 Fire / Ice
1 ponder
1 Vampiric
4 Force Of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Y. Will
Basic Lands
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
Artifact Lands
1 Darksteel Citadel
Lands
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
Legendary Lands
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Duress
2 Rack And Ruin
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Meekstone
1 Darksteel Colossus or Triskelion?
and how the hell do I sideboard with this deck? Against what comes colossus in? and what do you take out? I'm overstrained... need your help =)
I'll usually have between 7 and 12 in my decks.
I recommand going
-1 Ponder
+1 Gifts Ungiven
-1 Darksteel Citadel
+1 Seat of the Synod
-1 Mountain
-1 Swamp
+1 Strip Mine
+1 Library of alexandria (if proxies allow)
-1 Trinket Mage
+1 Crucible of Worlds
and I'd recommand finding room for 3 copies of Ingot Chewer in the sideboard. That card is SICK.
EDIT: 2 weeks ago, that guy beat me with that list, it's good:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19437
Ok, game 3 ended up in Ingot Chewer Beatdown (I was playing Painter) but the deck was really an "all the answers" kind of deck. I like the way it played (even against me) and the possibility to strip lock your opponent is just toog good to pass up. I'd opt in favor of Wastelands in the sideboard instead of Blood Moons, but it's pretty much the 1 change I'd make.
I've been using Night's Whisper again now as a 3of. and so far its been ok. Better than Sensei's Divining Top Imo. However, there have been times that I wished they were blue. But I think things will be better if I up my fetchland count +1 more.
I really like having Fire//Ice in my build as well as Rack and Ruin. Then again, I have a good deal of Welders.dec in my meta.
EDIT: To people using MD Crucible of Worlds has it been a useful card for you in the MD? Or is it there just because you can't find room for it in the SB? I can see it being good in Strategic Planning builds MD (Or better) Because you tend to discard more lands in the yard + the small chance of going Strip mine every turn. But without SP, you don't really have much use for it other than re-using used Fetchlands. So is this worth the slot or should it be something more useful instead?
Misdi your red blast into vindicating X or Y target? suuuuuure. And he told me it's the 1st thing he sided out when unnecessary. At worst it pitches to Force, or discards to Thirst. It was quite good to him but I do realise that 3 is a huge amount, and making the list I wouldn't have made that choice myself.
Crucible MD is for gift piles.
Crucible, Seat, Plats, X (Y. Will, A.Recall, T.Walk, E.tc) = win, with welder in play.
And I do like Night's Whisper better than Strategic Planning myself, but I run neither.