Genuine question time. On the front page leyline of sanctity is in the sideboard. What matchup is that for?
DaGarver. I can't agree with that. Elspeth is the second best planeswalker ever printed. Plus superfriends has to tapout to do stuff. Combo decks would have way too much of a field day against it.
I am really not a fan on chandra either. The only planes walker i would consider for this deck would be:
1 elspeth knight errant
and MAYBE ajani vengeant
If the new garruks mana cost was a bit more forgiving i would consider it but 3 green is way too hard on the manabase.
If he was 2 Green I would bite the bullet and play vivids by god. 3/3 Beasts are nothing to talk smack about. PLUS if you resolve a grave titan garruk becomes draw 6 cards. Do want.
planeswalkers are kinda bad in a deck that doesn't run blockers.
also I fixed that space issue Burstinatrix
The real reason planeswalkers are bad in this format is because of punishing fire. Control decks with punishing fire don't care at all about planeswalkers. Otherwise I would certainly have elspeth in my deck.
I've played 3 MU against 12 post and lost all 3. I am still sorting my deck out so it isn't all it can be, the mana base needs some work and I want to make the shift from Grixis to 4cc. Until then I've added Spreading Seas to my main to try and fight 12 post, along with 3 SB hate cards. Was also thinking if I could prop up my mana base some that I may be able to do Grixis with some Tect edge type land.
I made a guy rage quit on me...
Turn 5 Cruel Ultimatum
Turn 6 Teferi
Turn 7 Knowledge Pool (First time trying it out in the sideboard against them) Hilarious.
Inferno titan is a fast clock, but is really squishy. You want to run things that you get an advantage out of even if your opponent can destroy them. IMO wurmcoil is the best on that list, but we have a ton of options. Broodmate dragon was really pro back in the day; Heck I've even used siege-gang commander before.
You have obviously never run into a path to exile before. Feels bad man.
I agree; I don't think this thread should be deleted. If anything, I'll write a new introduction/primer and the OP's intro post(s) can be deleted.
Anyway, I decided to drop Spreading Seas for a fourth Cryptic Command, a fourth Esper Charm, a third Firespout, and a Creeping Tar Pit. Here's my updated list:
We should work on a primer although I've never done one before.
And to answer your question Slipknot thinks that punishing fire is bad because it only does 2 damage instead of 3.
Punishing fire may not be able to handle a zoo deck for the first 4 turns, but that is why we play firespout, consume the meek, path to exile, bolts.
Also I don't know if it is good yet, but I'm about to try pulse of the fields as a random 1 of. Saw it in the teachings thread and figured why not. I mean I'll try anything once.
Punishing fire should almost never kill a karn if you play it right. You drop karn presumably after you have established control. You +4 it. It now has TEN loyalty counter's/5 punishing fire's have to be thrown at it before the next mainphase when it +4's again. You also can shoot it in response to the +4 but the +4 is the cost and when activated it immediately gains 4 loyalty counters before anyone can do anything to it.
There were in fact 5 punishing fires thrown at it 2 at end of turn and 3 the next turn. The reason I did it in response to the +4 Targeting me was because my hand was only 2 punishing fires.
So have you guys ever heard of agony warp? Seems like a legit way to keep zoo off our backs. Kill a kird/nacatl/loam take less damage from the knight. I think it can replace lightning bolt if the mana base can support the cost.
Spreading Seas seems really weak. And I honestly can't figure out how in the world you can stand to play only 3 cryptic commands. It is pretty much the only reason to play blue right now.
Punishing fire wins me half of my games, literally. The thing is it can kill anything and there is no real downside to playing it (despite what slipknot says)
Consume the meek is instant speed, way better than it looks. I don't know how I feel about using planeswalkers in this meta game. I pretty much don't play them because I know punishing fire just eats them. I know this because I shot a karn down with mine in response to him +4ing it.
The only real reason to play white over grixis is for esper charm and yet you only play 3? If you don't think espercharm is good enough to play as a 4 of then I suggest you just play grixis.
Have you tested the deck with Teachings yet? I feel like it could be a decent two or three of, but that's just in theory. I'd like to know if it actually works.
Also, do you run Vendilion Clique?
Teachings is good. Teferi in general is really powerful. The ability to tutor up extirpate wins you a lot of games. The ability to search for consume the meek is also really powerful.
Yeah it does sound like a really unlucky streak. I however do not agree that vivids are awful for this format. 5 color has had a historical good matchup against rdw/aggro. This leads me to believe that our game 1 should be geared towards aggro, while still having disruption for control mirrors. The best way to have this would be Vandillion clique. This card alone breaks control mirrors. You play it at the end of their turn to help cast key spells, or play it early as a blocker to absorb damage. Late game it turns into a win condition. Last extended season i played 3 in the main with the 4th on the board. Another plus is if you are playing teachings (not saying you have to but it is a good key tutor) you can find a clique.
To beat aggro i would suggest something like
4 wall of omens
4 lightning bolt
2-4 path to exile
and have 3 wrath effects.
To beat 12 post i would suggest using esper charms aggressively. and have cliques to keep them off of key spells. You can also use cryptics to bounce lands to continuously put them behind but that is strictly defendant on the situation.
The problem I have with vendilion clique is that it auto dies to punishing fire before blocks and it makes the path to exile type cards in zoo live.
Beating 12Post after board is really easy. So easy infact that I am considering cutting some of my hate for that deck.
Don't take that manabase and copy it yet. After having to mulligan a bunch of times today I decided to drop the dreadship and the filter lands to 4 and put in more rav duals. I'm really open to suggestions on the manabase.
What do you suggest that I take out for the wall of omens?
How have the Vivid lands tested, by the way? I opted not to run them because I thought that they might be a bit too slow for the current format.
Vivid lands are bad. At this point I honestly think that you either play grixis teachings or don't play control. It could just be my luck though. I play 27 lands plus coalition relics and preordains yet I tend to get stuck on 3 lands, maybe its just a bad day.
I figured that because I play more Black and Red spells than White ones that three Terminate would be superior to three Path to Exile. Ideally, I'd rather play Path, but I'm not sure if it'd work with the mana base.
Yeah, it's pretty important to run a relatively low curve this format if you don't want to lose to Zoo, Goblins, 12Post, etc., at least in my opinion.
Good point. I wasn't sure what else to play as a finisher, so I basically just scanned some lists and found that many of them were running Wurmcoil, but you have a point.
PT Austin was actually ruled by zoo. Dredge and Hypergen where hated out by darkdepths. As far as i can tell the new meta is going to be zoo, jund and 12 post heavy. Mystical teachings doesn't give you a benefit against any of these decks vs a deck that runs more of a tapout style.
You can look at the list from Amsterdam and know the main decks in the format at the time. Punishing fire without tons of creatures is pretty much worthless unless your using it on faeries or WW. Faeries was the top deck, and WW had all of the hype going into the event. Everyone one thought is was the best deck. Thus decks run hate that also worked against faeries.
EDIT: By the end of the extended season people were playing inferno titan over wurmcoil engine. I don't know if inferno titan is our best option right now though. The way I feel right now is that the deck should be mainboard to handle aggro decks. I think the sideboard should be changed so that it is completely hates on every combo deck currently legal. My favorite card right now for the sideboard is mindbreak trap. I wouldn't dare play less than 4.
I figured that because I play more Black and Red spells than White ones that three Terminate would be superior to three Path to Exile. Ideally, I'd rather play Path, but I'm not sure if it'd work with the mana base.
Yeah, it's pretty important to run a relatively low curve this format if you don't want to lose to Zoo, Goblins, 12Post, etc., at least in my opinion.
Good point. I wasn't sure what else to play as a finisher, so I basically just scanned some lists and found that many of them were running Wurmcoil, but you have a point.
You play a lot of basics when in truth the only basic land you need is islands. Since the deck should primarily be based off of blue I think that if the filter land you are playing can't be activated with blue that you shouldn't be playing it. I wouldn't play a land that doesn't produce blue except for lands that fill some other purpose like grove of the burnwillows and urborg.
My current mana base.
3 Island
1 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Steam Vents
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Mystic Gate
3 Sunken Ruins
4 Reflecting Pool
2 Tarpits
1 Urborg
3 Grove of the burnwillows
1 Dreadship Reef
I tried to avoid random 1 of type things like 1 graven caverns or 1 marsh flats. I don't think this mana base can handle your spell line up though because of terminate. In my build you would probably have to float some other color through a filter to make terminate happen, but that's why I play path over it.
PT Austin was actually ruled by zoo. Dredge and Hypergen where hated out by darkdepths. As far as i can tell the new meta is going to be zoo, jund and 12 post heavy. Mystical teachings doesn't give you a benefit against any of these decks vs a deck that runs more of a tapout style.
You can look at the list from Amsterdam and know the main decks in the format at the time. Punishing fire without tons of creatures is pretty much worthless unless your using it on faeries or WW. Faeries was the top deck, and WW had all of the hype going into the event. Everyone one thought is was the best deck. Thus decks run hate that also worked against faeries.
Amsterdam was a different format ruled by faeries and WW. Teachings is a completely different deck. I'm just going to delete the OP if people don't stop suggesting things like this. PT Austin is what this format will look like except we will have no dark depths to worry about.
This entire discussion that you two are having is literally the exact same discussion we have had 2 times before. If you are not going to be open to the idea of actually playing cards other than 3 cruel ultimatum and 4 cryptic command. I don't think you should be here.
Now basic logic will tell you that we should look at the cruel ultimatum control lists in the last 3 years and pick up good ideas from them. The best one that I have found plays mystical teachings.
The ones that I know of are the one from the recent extended that Patrick Chapin produced at grand prix atlanta and the one from pro tour amsterdam. What did a cruel control list look like in PT austin? Can you find a list?
Aside from your mana base being really weird. Some things that I think are weird are 3 Terminates and a path to exile. Why not just play 3 path to exile and 4 lightning bolts? The path helps slow the goyf down and bolt is guaranteed to give you a turn 1 or 2 play against zoo.
1 thing that I think everyone should realize is that just because we are playing a 5 color control deck doesn't mean we can play any spells. You stress the mana base just by playing esper charm and cryptic command. I think that adding terminate to that is pushing the mana base really hard.
The things I like about your list are that basically everything is able to get played after turn 3, which I really like in a format full of land destruction and zoo.
I also don't like the wurmcoil just because in a format with zoo and path to exile any finisher creature we attempt to play should produce somekind of value before it eats a path to exile.
In my testing I almost need 8 1 mana removal spells to have a chance to keep up. I almost need red for firespout to also keep up. 4cmc sweepers aren't fast enough, and I can't counter early drops. U based control is dead. You might have a few blue cards in the deck, but traditional permission blue is dead in this format.
I love the fact that you are arguing against all of the stuff I am saying in the teachings thread when it is literally what you just said. Come on bro pick a side and stick with it.
On another note. You guys should all try coalition relic. Fixes colors and can serve as mana ramp into a turn 5 cruel ultimatum. Should go great in the lists with 3 cruel Ultimatums.
DaGarver. I can't agree with that. Elspeth is the second best planeswalker ever printed. Plus superfriends has to tapout to do stuff. Combo decks would have way too much of a field day against it.
If he was 2 Green I would bite the bullet and play vivids by god. 3/3 Beasts are nothing to talk smack about. PLUS if you resolve a grave titan garruk becomes draw 6 cards. Do want.
The real reason planeswalkers are bad in this format is because of punishing fire. Control decks with punishing fire don't care at all about planeswalkers. Otherwise I would certainly have elspeth in my deck.
Your other thread specifically says I can't talk about cruel ultimatum or punishing fire even though I'm playing grixis teachings.
So I naturally post here instead.
I suggested knowledge pool over there because everybody over there naturally runs teferi and it seems to have simple yet powerful synergy in the deck.
Not everybody runs teferi here so I haven't suggested it here.
I made a guy rage quit on me...
Turn 5 Cruel Ultimatum
Turn 6 Teferi
Turn 7 Knowledge Pool (First time trying it out in the sideboard against them) Hilarious.
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
4 Cryptic Command
3 Punishing Fire
3 Firespout
2 Terminate
2 Mystical Teachings
2 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Extirpate
1 Consume the meek
1 Teferi
1 Grave Titan
2 Coalition Relic
Manabase isn't quite where I want it yet. Hence why I haven't posted it.
You have obviously never run into a path to exile before. Feels bad man.
We should work on a primer although I've never done one before.
And to answer your question Slipknot thinks that punishing fire is bad because it only does 2 damage instead of 3.
Punishing fire may not be able to handle a zoo deck for the first 4 turns, but that is why we play firespout, consume the meek, path to exile, bolts.
Also I don't know if it is good yet, but I'm about to try pulse of the fields as a random 1 of. Saw it in the teachings thread and figured why not. I mean I'll try anything once.
There were in fact 5 punishing fires thrown at it 2 at end of turn and 3 the next turn. The reason I did it in response to the +4 Targeting me was because my hand was only 2 punishing fires.
So have you guys ever heard of agony warp? Seems like a legit way to keep zoo off our backs. Kill a kird/nacatl/loam take less damage from the knight. I think it can replace lightning bolt if the mana base can support the cost.
Punishing fire wins me half of my games, literally. The thing is it can kill anything and there is no real downside to playing it (despite what slipknot says)
Consume the meek is instant speed, way better than it looks. I don't know how I feel about using planeswalkers in this meta game. I pretty much don't play them because I know punishing fire just eats them. I know this because I shot a karn down with mine in response to him +4ing it.
The only real reason to play white over grixis is for esper charm and yet you only play 3? If you don't think espercharm is good enough to play as a 4 of then I suggest you just play grixis.
Teachings is good. Teferi in general is really powerful. The ability to tutor up extirpate wins you a lot of games. The ability to search for consume the meek is also really powerful.
The problem I have with vendilion clique is that it auto dies to punishing fire before blocks and it makes the path to exile type cards in zoo live.
Beating 12Post after board is really easy. So easy infact that I am considering cutting some of my hate for that deck.
2 [ZEN] Island (3)
2 [RAV] Watery Grave
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 [SHM] Reflecting Pool
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
2 [GP] Steam Vents
2 [DIS] Hallowed Fountain
2 [SHM] Mystic Gate
2 [SHM] Sunken Ruins
2 [WWK] Creeping Tar Pit
// Creatures
1 [M12] Grave Titan
2 [TSP] Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
4 [M11] Preordain
1 [PLC] Extirpate
3 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [LRW] Cryptic Command
4 [ALA] Esper Charm
4 [M12] Mana Leak
2 [ALA] Cruel Ultimatum
2 [TSP] Mystical Teachings
3 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
1 [ROE] Consume the Meek
3 [SHM] Firespout
Don't take that manabase and copy it yet. After having to mulligan a bunch of times today I decided to drop the dreadship and the filter lands to 4 and put in more rav duals. I'm really open to suggestions on the manabase.
What do you suggest that I take out for the wall of omens?
Vivid lands are bad. At this point I honestly think that you either play grixis teachings or don't play control. It could just be my luck though. I play 27 lands plus coalition relics and preordains yet I tend to get stuck on 3 lands, maybe its just a bad day.
My current list is
1 Teferi
4 Preordain
4 Esper Charm
4 Firespout
4 Cryptic Command
3 Mana Leak
3 Punishing Fire
2 Path to exile
2 Coalition Relic
2 Mystical Teachings
1 Extirpate
1 Consume the meek
1 Cruel Ultimatum
The Grove is really important
EDIT: By the end of the extended season people were playing inferno titan over wurmcoil engine. I don't know if inferno titan is our best option right now though. The way I feel right now is that the deck should be mainboard to handle aggro decks. I think the sideboard should be changed so that it is completely hates on every combo deck currently legal. My favorite card right now for the sideboard is mindbreak trap. I wouldn't dare play less than 4.
You play a lot of basics when in truth the only basic land you need is islands. Since the deck should primarily be based off of blue I think that if the filter land you are playing can't be activated with blue that you shouldn't be playing it. I wouldn't play a land that doesn't produce blue except for lands that fill some other purpose like grove of the burnwillows and urborg.
My current mana base.
3 Island
1 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Steam Vents
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Mystic Gate
3 Sunken Ruins
4 Reflecting Pool
2 Tarpits
1 Urborg
3 Grove of the burnwillows
1 Dreadship Reef
I tried to avoid random 1 of type things like 1 graven caverns or 1 marsh flats. I don't think this mana base can handle your spell line up though because of terminate. In my build you would probably have to float some other color through a filter to make terminate happen, but that's why I play path over it.
This entire discussion that you two are having is literally the exact same discussion we have had 2 times before. If you are not going to be open to the idea of actually playing cards other than 3 cruel ultimatum and 4 cryptic command. I don't think you should be here.
Now basic logic will tell you that we should look at the cruel ultimatum control lists in the last 3 years and pick up good ideas from them. The best one that I have found plays mystical teachings.
The ones that I know of are the one from the recent extended that Patrick Chapin produced at grand prix atlanta and the one from pro tour amsterdam. What did a cruel control list look like in PT austin? Can you find a list?
Aside from your mana base being really weird. Some things that I think are weird are 3 Terminates and a path to exile. Why not just play 3 path to exile and 4 lightning bolts? The path helps slow the goyf down and bolt is guaranteed to give you a turn 1 or 2 play against zoo.
1 thing that I think everyone should realize is that just because we are playing a 5 color control deck doesn't mean we can play any spells. You stress the mana base just by playing esper charm and cryptic command. I think that adding terminate to that is pushing the mana base really hard.
The things I like about your list are that basically everything is able to get played after turn 3, which I really like in a format full of land destruction and zoo.
I also don't like the wurmcoil just because in a format with zoo and path to exile any finisher creature we attempt to play should produce somekind of value before it eats a path to exile.
I love the fact that you are arguing against all of the stuff I am saying in the teachings thread when it is literally what you just said. Come on bro pick a side and stick with it.
On another note. You guys should all try coalition relic. Fixes colors and can serve as mana ramp into a turn 5 cruel ultimatum. Should go great in the lists with 3 cruel Ultimatums.