Cruel control is solid, but it'll hardly be the "only" good blue based control deck.
Believe it or not, there were lots of good blue control decks before Jace was around. Lots of them centered around Thirst for Knowledge, Gifts Ungiven, Mystical Teachings, and other various card advantage engines.
BTW, I was toying with a few small gifts packages in Cruel Control and came up with a really cool gifts package.
You play Gifts for Grave Titan, Cruel Ultimatum, Noxious Revival, and Torrent of Souls. If they give you Torrent and Noxious, you eot noxious for cruel, then play Torrent of Souls on Grave Titan, which swings for 16 damage, and gives you 4 zombies for a measly 5 mana.
I don't see any reason why playing Gifts as a 2-of would be that much of a problem. In a deck like this, you resolve it, and you'll win.
As for other types of decks in the format, I've won tons of matches with my Bant based Gifts control deck. That being said, it got a lot better after the bannings when it didn't have to deal with trying to stop 4-5 different combo decks that went off turn 3, aggro decks that win turn 4-5, and 12post decks which are getting emrakul out whether you have countermagic or not. Pre-Ban, I would have agreed with you, but post ban-list update, Control decks can be a lot more focused and not rely on a huge string of narrow answers for a grouping of 20+ different archetypes.
So I'm not sure if you're just building suboptimal builds for your non-cruel control decks, but they're definitely viable, especially now that all the format really requires is a control deck to be strong vs. aggro, and have answers to 12post.
How did you work this into the list? Its only 6 cards, but still what are you missing?
How are they not the same deck? I have been looking at everyone's lists from both pages and from what I can tell the decks are the same. atleast provide reasoning for how they are not the same by showing two different decklists or something.
And don't you dare argue that one plays white and the other is straight grixis.
Merfolk exists it is just being underestimated.
People thought that cawblade wasn't going to be a deck anymore and the deck won tournaments immediately after the bannings.
I really think zoo is going to be hated out of the format by everyone. Which is why I'm not expecting it that much. I do concede that I may just being thinking too far ahead though.
Argentum: Hi, I'm Feathers and I don't sling spells into obvious counter-magic. You must really think we're a bunch of idiots if you think we'll really just throw Slagstorms out all willy-nilly. :|
My point isn't to insult you personally it is to show you that you can't just have a bunch of firespouts or slagstorms in your deck and hope.
There has to be a mix of board wipers and 1 for 1 kill spells otherwise they will just spell pierce all the board wipes and win on turn 4/5 as planned.
EDIT: I have this weird feeling that zoo isn't going to be as broken as people think it is.
I feel Slagstorm is good main deck here. It hits Kitties, Apes, Elves with blood in their hair, and a bunch of other things that are really good in this format while coming down a full turn sooner than Damnation, which is extremely relevant.
My name is spell pierce and I will guarantee that you lose the merfolk match up, but if you insist just play firespout because of the flexibility. It matters because if you play the clique or plumeveil or things like that you can avoid making them killable.
This is a format where the premier aggro deck centers on guys that have 3 toughness (Nacatl, Kird Ape, Loam Lion, Steppe Lynx) and runs no counterspells. I would run Slagstorm over Pyro/Fallout any day of the week.
Given Firespout's flexibility and its smoother casting cost (and that Zoo runs no fliers), I think Firespout is the way to go.
Teachings does not a 5cc deck make. Punishing fire isn't really useful because most creatures are just too big for it. Also you have to run at least 2 ultimatums other wise you won't see the damn thing. I think you might have found the wrong thread dude.
Punishing Fire is the reason I don't care about aither vial merfolk.
I only play 1 Cruel Ultimatum out of personal preference, I will admit that the standard is 2.
If you want to go straight grixis I just finished making that, but I don't think you need the hand disruption you guys are jamming into your decks when the format is going to be based a lot on board presence.
@Argentum:
3 ultimatum for the same reason you would run 3 upheaval in old UB Tog - you only want to definitely draw one, but you don't want to do without seeing it either.
You're effectively running a teachings deck with a cruel control package or something in it. Probably stretching both of the strategies a little too far and making each of them a little less effective. Blightning is as suitable as esper charm if you aren't running 4 colors - and the quick list I have is straight grixis. I'm thinking only having a single sweeper spell in the maindeck isn't enough. Time will tell.
As for good hard counters, there aren't many. You could try Hinder or Rewind.
I think you guys are blatantly ignoring the fact that cruel ultimatum is ridiculously expensive. I'm sure that by the time you would want/be able to cast cruel ultimatum you will be half way through your deck so only run 2 max otherwise you are going to be one of those guys in the bottom tables with 2 cruel ultimatums in hand while being stuck on 4 land.
Blightning isn't nearly as good as esper charm, but if you want me to make a straight grixis version I can do that too.
I'm not going to lie to you guys here. I love cruel control, but you guys are making it look like absolute trash.
3 Cruel Ultimatum Really guys? Not to mention you guys are putting it next to tec edge like there is synergy there. Come on people atleast think some things through.
Anyway. And blightning? Are you guys even trying to build it to beat the meta?
Anyway. My current cruel control list is also shaking in the mana base department, but that is why we are here to put our heads together
Notes to be taken.
Decision between wurmcoil and grave titan depends on how fast everyone actually is. I'm also thinking about wall of reverence.
May go down to 2 teachings.
The sideboard isn't finished because I don't know exactly what the meta will be. I may want to move a board sweeper to the maindeck, but it is so tight on space right now.
Also what are good sideboard cards/hard counters in this format that I don't know of?
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Pyromancer Ascension is a different deck and should only be U/R. Just trust me on that. The deck is way different from cruel control.
Make your own thread and we can talk about it there.
How did you work this into the list? Its only 6 cards, but still what are you missing?
What kind of list are you playing that can stand up to zoo that well?
And don't you dare argue that one plays white and the other is straight grixis.
Also mindbreak trap is good and I found out that coalition relic is really powerful in the mirror.
Another idea I had today. Is crucibleof worlds legal? Because I would love to play 1 tecedge in the board along with crucible.
Also everyone should try atleast 1 storage land at worst it taps for colorless, atbest it will win you the controll mirror.
EDIT: can we please have the teachings and cruel control threads made into 1 because in all honesty they are the same deck.
People thought that cawblade wasn't going to be a deck anymore and the deck won tournaments immediately after the bannings.
I really think zoo is going to be hated out of the format by everyone. Which is why I'm not expecting it that much. I do concede that I may just being thinking too far ahead though.
My point isn't to insult you personally it is to show you that you can't just have a bunch of firespouts or slagstorms in your deck and hope.
There has to be a mix of board wipers and 1 for 1 kill spells otherwise they will just spell pierce all the board wipes and win on turn 4/5 as planned.
EDIT: I have this weird feeling that zoo isn't going to be as broken as people think it is.
My name is spell pierce and I will guarantee that you lose the merfolk match up, but if you insist just play firespout because of the flexibility. It matters because if you play the clique or plumeveil or things like that you can avoid making them killable.
There is truth in this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nq1H2QUBdW8
Wafo Tapa doesn't know what he is doing or anything like that.
Punishing Fire is the reason I don't care about aither vial merfolk.
I only play 1 Cruel Ultimatum out of personal preference, I will admit that the standard is 2.
If you want to go straight grixis I just finished making that, but I don't think you need the hand disruption you guys are jamming into your decks when the format is going to be based a lot on board presence.
I think you guys are blatantly ignoring the fact that cruel ultimatum is ridiculously expensive. I'm sure that by the time you would want/be able to cast cruel ultimatum you will be half way through your deck so only run 2 max otherwise you are going to be one of those guys in the bottom tables with 2 cruel ultimatums in hand while being stuck on 4 land.
Blightning isn't nearly as good as esper charm, but if you want me to make a straight grixis version I can do that too.
3 Cruel Ultimatum Really guys? Not to mention you guys are putting it next to tec edge like there is synergy there. Come on people atleast think some things through.
Anyway. And blightning? Are you guys even trying to build it to beat the meta?
Anyway. My current cruel control list is also shaking in the mana base department, but that is why we are here to put our heads together
Also where the hell are the punishing fires?
My current Deck list is
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Grave Titan / Wurmcoil
4 Wall of Omens
Spells
3 Mystical teachings
4 Cryptic Command
3 Punishing Fire
4 Mana Leak
1 Go for the throat
1 Dismember
1 Path to exile
4 Esper Charm
1 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Consume the Meek
1 Extirpate
1 Logic Knot
4 Spell Snare
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Cascade Bluffs
4 Vivid Creek
4 Reflecting Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Islands
2 Tar Pits
3 Mystic Gate
2 Sunken Ruins
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Consume the Meek
3 Krosan Grip
2 Damnation
3 Surgical Extraction
Notes to be taken.
Decision between wurmcoil and grave titan depends on how fast everyone actually is. I'm also thinking about wall of reverence.
May go down to 2 teachings.
The sideboard isn't finished because I don't know exactly what the meta will be. I may want to move a board sweeper to the maindeck, but it is so tight on space right now.
Also what are good sideboard cards/hard counters in this format that I don't know of?