One good thing about Cruel control is that I feel I have a super strong matchup against birthing pod decks and most of the meta right now. At least with the augur / cantrip variant, I can't speak for other variations, but with this version, I feel any deck that wants to win with creatures is basically dead in the water, regardless whether it's pod, GW hatebears, or affinity.
After some practice, I also feel you're favored against most of the UWR decks as well, you just have to be careful to not let yourself get burned out before you can resolve an ultimatum.
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I'll have to see on Augur, as for Remand, I have been tinkering with the idea of Delay for a little while not sure what to think, but I personally dislike remand outside of combo and tempo decks
Not a fan of Serum Visions, I like Think Twice as an instant mainly, it may not fix your draws and it takes 2 turns to draw 2, but the instant part is very relevant
Thoughtflare I have been a huge fan of and have been trying to work in constructed for awhile now, deserves testing
How extensively have people tested Far/Away? Seems like a perfect fit as it can randomly reset a snappy and edict something
Also shouldn't this thread be in the Uxx control section
On finishers: I have found Aetherling to be insane as a finisher it blocks everything that doesn't fly and ends the game quite quickly, Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker has been insane and can turn a game around as soon as he hits the board
I've said it 300000 times in this thread, but cruel control does not need expensive creature finishers. That's not to say that they'll always be bad, but it makes your deck a lot weaker against combo or control, and most aggro decks have you dead by the time you would be casting them anyway. Instead of filling your deck with more expensive creatures, you can devote that space towards more disruption and snapcaster mages, which form a mini-combo with Cruel Ultimatum that basically ensures they can't win. (Once you resolve 1 ultimatum, you either chain that into a second, or flashback the first, then proceed to chain the flashback into a 3rd ultimatum).
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker has been insane and can turn a game around as soon as he hits the board
Cruel ultimatum has a much larger impact at 7 mana than Nicol Bolas does at 8 mana. This deck's biggest weakness is the fact that you play cards with a high curve, making early game stabilization more difficult if you start filling your deck with expensive cards. Think efficient and streamlined. Nicol Bolas is not good, and isn't even good enough to see play in standard. If you want more expensive finishers, just play more ultimatums (although you still end up with too high of a curve at that point).
Not a fan of Serum Visions, I like Think Twice as an instant mainly, it may not fix your draws and it takes 2 turns to draw 2, but the instant part is very relevant
I won't say think twice is awful, but I'm just not a big fan. It's good in very few matchups, those being the rare control matchup which is almost nonexistant in the format. Against any deck that's slightly aggressive (which is most of the format) you simply won't have any time to use it as you'll be using all your mana to deal with your opponent's threats. Because of this, the fact that it's really inefficient really causes some problems since it just sits in your hand doing nothing here. IF you play in a control heavy meta, then perhaps it's a good choice.
Personally, I look at Cruel Control as a deck that usually wants to win off the back of 1-2 very big and powerful sorceries. Against aggro, it's wrath effects early on followed by cruel. Against control or combo, it's simply about resolving a thoughtflare, and then a Cruel Ultimatum soon after. Serum visions may not be an instant, but it also only costs 1 mana, which enables you to hold up countermagic in easy fashion, while also enabling you to dig for your critical spells much easier. Additionally, you really don't want to be playing it until turn 3-5 anyway, where you can start digging for cards that you need once you've determined what deck you're playing against. The only time you really want to play it that early is when you need to hit land drops if you're short on lands.
Think twice does nothing to enable consistency or filtering, it's simply a 5 mana instant speed divination that is good against counterspell effects. I don't play the full suite of serum visions, but I wouldn't write it off before testing it in a similar shell. I've taken visions out, and added more, and maybe it's not that scientific, but I feel like the deck runs way more smooth when I play 2 visions.
I'll have to see on Augur, as for Remand, I have been tinkering with the idea of Delay for a little while not sure what to think, but I personally dislike remand outside of combo and tempo decks
I don't think delay is bad, but keep in mind, this isn't a deck that wins quickly. Delays will buy you 3 turns, then the card will still resolve as it normally would have. Unless you can win by then, it's going to be card disadvantage, which just isn't where you want to be. Delay has been historically good in tempo decks since they usually can kill the opponent by the time said spell would be resolving, making the "delay" effect somewhat irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
One of the pitfalls I had with UWR Draw-Go was not doing anything in the early game if I "don't draw the right half of my deck", one of the advantages to Cruel, despite worst fetches, is hand disruption and the ability to play more sorcery speed spells
Jace has been awesome in my testing, I kinda agree he is likely better, but that is mostly because you can drop him turn 3 and he has great synergy with Liliana
That's understandable with Storage lands, I never realized how insanely powerful they were until I started playing EDH and cast a Bogardan Hellkite copied with 5 lands in play and no mana rocks
Badd_Business curious what your current list looks like?
I've played a ton of variants of this. There is a list in the OP with trinket mage, although I will say, I think the most consistent overall variant is pretty similar to the list that Lord Owlington posted in the original post.
I don't play the exact 75 that he does, but it's pretty similar and features most of the same engines, and has pretty good matchups around the board for any given meta. Since i'm bored at home tonight, I decided to write out a quick card-by-card explanation of the list for cards that may not be staples (snapcaster, bolt, cruel, cryptic, etc). It's pretty in depth, and hopefully anybody looking to play cruel control can get a good read on the logic behind certain card choices, deck theories, and overall gameplan.
Deck theory and gameplan
Cruel control is a bit different than most modern control decks since it can basically play a gameplan of "resolve cruel ultimatum, win". Because of that, it's a deck that needs to hit land drops, and needs to keep a mostly stable board prior to that point to stay alive for 7-8 turns. The drawback is that you're playing a few cards that you probably don't want in your opening hand.
Due to playing 5-8 cards that cost 4cmc or higher, there are a lot of cantripping disruption spells (remand, electrolyze) in here, and there are more cards that promote consistency and digging than in other control decks like UWR draw-go (augur of bolas, thoughtflare, serum visions). This has the benefit of making powerful sideboard cards more consistent, and also allows you to sculpt your hand in a better fashion depending on which matchup you play.
Additionally, the consistency aspect is also shown through spells that are less narrow, and are greater in a broader range of matchups. Since spells that can't be used in certain matchups are the equivalent to discarding said card, you see a lower volume of hard removal spells like Terminate, and more removal that can be used as burn or counterspell effects (bolt, electrolyze, Izzet Charm, Cryptic Command) Since they are never dead in any given matchup. In other words, it's better to have a card be "good" in a lot of matchups than to have a lot of cards that are incredibly awesome in a few matchups, and terrible in a lot of matchups. This is meta dependent of course, and if you know your meta is 100% creatures for example, playing 4 damnation and multiple terminates may not be a bad idea.
*Against creature matchups, you play a ton of 2 for 1 effects to deal with creatures effectively and efficiently. The fact that you play cruel ultimatum puts aggro opponents in a bind over whether to overextend into a wrath, or to hold their creatures in hand only to be discarded by a resolved ultimatum.
*Against combo opponents, you play more disruption than any of the tier control decks do, and have a more potent sideboard to deal with the combo decks of the format (slaughter games, rakdos charm). Combo matchups are generally pretty easy assuming you don't draw terribly.
*Against control opponents, you are playing more disruption than they are, and their slow counterburn game is pretty ineffective once you resolve a cruel ultimatum. Resolving an ultimatum here isn't super easy, but you have hand disruption and cards like Thoughtflare to bait out any countermagic they may be playing anyway. Slaughter games can be a decent sideboard card in these matchups as well, since it can get rid of key cards such as Gifts Ungiven, Cryptic Command, or Sphinx's Revelation.
I'm a big believer in versatility in general, and good decks shouldn't be vulnerable to any single "hate" card. I've had a lot of players sideboard in cards like Leyline of Sanctity, which is effective for a few turns until it gets bounced with a cryptic command before I force them to discard it with a following Cruel Ultimatum.
Card Explanations (for less common maindeck cards)
Augur of Bolas is absolutely amazing in cruel control. If you haven't given it a try, I would suggest you add 2-3 in to your list and play with it. Augur plays a lot of small roles that are very important to the deck. First off, it's a ponder attached to a 1/3 body. This fact enables you to hit your big spells at the right time with a high level of consistency, and allows you to filter away un-needed draws as well.
Against aggro decks, it buys you a turn blocking (and will often live) while digging for wraths or removal. Against combo decks, augur digs for counters, hand disruption, or important sideboard pieces.
Against midrange decks, augur allows you to deal with Liliana of the Veil much easier since it at least gives you a small body to ping away at her while you try to find a Lightning Bolt or Creeping Tar Pit to fully remove an active Liliana.
Against control augur gives you something to do when you have extra mana and your'e trying to get ahead. The bonus here, is that their removal won't trade evenly since augur draws you a card, and it can slowly ping away at your opponents life total, which actually becomes somewhat relevant in longer games.
Furthermore, Augur also provides the benefit of being a body that can be grabbed back when you cast your first cruel ultimatum (assuming that it has already died).
Devour is a really great inclusion to cruel control as it enables cruel control decks to easily handle cards that normally give control decks fits in the format. Suddenly, Geist of Saint Traft, Slippery Bogle, Thrun, the Last Troll, or a Glistener Elf protected by Vines of Vastwood become easy-to-kill creatures.
While not ideal, devour flesh can be used on your own augurs to gain 3 life against problematic burn decks. Devour flesh IS bad against cards like lingering souls or noble hierarch, but playing 3 electrolyzes as well as 2 wraths helps to mitigate that drawback.
In rare situations, you can even use devour flesh to kill an Emrakul to buy a turn or two against a deck such as tron.
I'm a big believer in versatility and efficiency when building control decks. In a format that has a ton of diverse threats and answers, decks with versatile answers can be competitive against a broader field of opponents.
Izzet charm plays this role to at tee. It counters the cards that give you fits if they resolve early (Birthing Pod, Liliana of the Veil, Elspeth, Knight Errant) while also keeping the ability to kill most of the problematic creatures you could deal with (Dark Confidant, Melira, Deathrite shaman, Thalia, etc). The loot ability isn't great, but if you have a lot of cards in hand that you don't need, it can play a role as an extra card to dig for more important answers.
I'm not a huge fan of playing tons of discard effects in control decks. I don't think discard is bad, but I do think it's a bit overrated for decks that plan to play a long-drawn out game.
With that said, Inquisition is a versatile 1 mana spell that can at least help deal with a lot of problematic cards. The slot for inquisition was either going to a discard effect or spell snare, and I decided that there were more relevant cards that inquisition hit than snare, so it got the go ahead. The only problem is it doesn't provide the same tempo boost a spell snare can, but it's generally a matter of preference.
I like inquisition more in here partially due to the sideboard, and also due to the inclusion of thoughtflare. Being able to discard inquisition which often becomes 100% useless after turn 4-5 via thoughtflare makes it's drawback of being a sorcery speed card that is bad against decks that can empty their hand much more manageable.
If you have been following the thread a bit, you will know that I'm a big proponent of Thoughtflare. Thoughtflare is often what sets up your cruel ultimatums, and digs for the cards you need to lock your opponent out after stabilizing the board via removal.
While thoughtflare isn't cheap, it also digs 4 cards deep, and will net you +4 cards that you actually need, while simultaneously gaining card advantage. If you can stabilize the board enough to land a thoughtflare, winning the game should be somewhat easy afterward.
I know serum visions isn't preordain, but that doesn't mean it's a worthless card. I decided I wanted to test a few visions in here since old cruel control lists in extended were made 100% better when they started to include preordain in their lists.
While visions is a step down from preordain, it's really not as big of a difference as many people feel it would be. In a deck with a few expensive spells, it helps you mitigate problems associated with getting flooded with lands, expensive spells, or simply cards that aren't needed. Adding 2 along with the augur of bolas suite really helped to improve consistency and consistently hit cruel ultimatums, damnations, and thoughtflares when you need them.
In my testing, I found I liked 2-3 more than playing all 4, but either is good. Preordain also plays the role of allowing you to actually use your cards in control mirrors to sculpt a superior hand and board state, where your opponent will most likely just focus on trying to burn you out.
This card was made popular by Wafo-tapa UWR draw-go, and for good reason. It's one of the only 3 mana cards that can 3 for 1 an opponent. Against decks like Birthing pod which play a lot of smaller creatures, it can be used at the end of a turn to set them way back, and against non-creature decks, it's an end-of-turn burn spell that cantrips so you don't lose card advantage.
The main downfall of electrolyze is that it won't kill tarmogoyf, or any larger creature, but you can either combine it with a block (augur of bolas or snapcaster) to kill larger creatures, or hold out until you can wrath the board and use the electrolyze to pick off anything that persisted or remaining creatures they later cast.
In most control decks, I would say mana leak would be better, but in here, I'm a much bigger fan of using a combination of remand and izzet charm. The reason being is that this is a deck that needs to hit it's land drops to ideally play cruel ultimatum as early as possible. Furthermore, remand allows you to see more cards in your deck, and since your primary gameplan is to stay alive and stable for long enough to resole an ultimatum, it's actually the perfect counterspell in here.
Remand also has the bonus of being stronger against Lingering souls than Mana leak is, and can be used on your own spells if you need to draw a card (although that's pretty rare).
I'm not a big believer in wraths in modern, but I do believe they're a necessary evil. The thing about wraths, is that they're only good in about 1/4 of your matchups, but in those matchups, they can win the game on their own.
Similar to Inquisition of Kozilek, damnation is made better by playing thoughtflare, which allows you to trade it for a better card if it's dead in the current matchup.
I'll be streaming my variant of the deck tomorrow, I think this deck has some power in the metagame atm
Just curious why I haven't seen a ton of Dreadship Reefs? The card is great at accelerating your mana and letting you cast "early" Cruels (or in my case giant dragons and unkillable things)
just trying to determine which Jace is better to run Beleren or Architect?
I'm not a big believer in either in the format, but Jace Beleren is probably the better card overall. That being said, if you rely more on hand disruption, planeswalkers are probably slightly better since you don't rely so much on playing at instant speed (which has advantages as well as drawbacks).
Dreadship reef isn't played that much probably because it's simply not a super popular card for newer players who don't have experience playing with storage lands. If you're playing cruel, I agree, it's super important.
For Burn do not get cute with things like Sun Droplet and Dragon's Claw. You best weapons are Spellskite (also really good vs Infect and Bogle, useful versus Scapeshift) and Spell Pierce.
I sort of agree. The main issue with burn, is it's just a bad matchup. The problem with spellskite against burn is that it won't block lava spike, boros charm, or bump in the night, all of which are relevant cards in the matchup. It also gives your burn opponent a target to make their inevitable searing blaze relevant.
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So is Void any good? I'm thinking about building a control deck and I thought this thread would be a good place to ask.
Void is pretty bad. You would be better off playing persecute, which also sees very little play and is a bit slow.
i do play think twice x 4 in mainboard , its a great draw engine if you cast in early game , against control is a powerhouse, it's like draw 2 per turn , and you win the card advantage race.
I've never understood the love for think twice. The only time it's ever half-way decent is in the grindy control mirrors that are almost nonexistant in modern. The thing about think twice, is it requires a total of 5 mana to actually net you just 1 extra card. That's incredibly inefficient. Thoughtflare for 5 mana nets you +2 cards, and also is extremely effective for digging and filtering draws. If you just want the cantrip, you're better off playing peek than think twice.
I wouldn't discount Thoughtflare's power just because it isn't played much in standard. Standard is a much different format, and most of those decks are playing Sphinx's revelation instead anyway, and the cards play two similar, but very different roles.
Liliana of the Veil: I am on the fence with this card, but it seems like one of the best ways to fight against GW Auras, that has risen in popularity. And until M14 rules change, it can effectively kill an opposing Liliana. Not sure if it is a staple in the list though.
Most of us have adopted Devour Flesh as a staple in our lists since it deals with Geist of Saint Traft, Bogles, while also being an effective kill spell against Tarmogoyf or Dark Confidant. It even can handle Emrakul for a turn or two before they fetch it up again off Eye of Ugin. The variant that is posted in the OP works really well when you pair devour flesh with Augur of Bolas, since it gives you a way to gain 3 life at instant speed against decks like Burn.
Now then, I would really appreciate any and all cards and things you can propose, for example, some answers to Burn and what not.
Burn is a bad matchup, just how it is. The main problem isn't just the burn, but rather the fact that so many players sideboard in blood moon as well. Some of us play sun droplet, but that's really only good against burn and nothing else. I personally recommend the augur of bolas + devour flesh strategy as a small way that you can help out your burn matchup. Spellskites of course help here too as they also do against twin, infect and bogles. It's the most widely played SB card in modern for a pretty good reason.
@magicman: No, not paper events, unfortunately - but I have played my fair share of MODO games. It is true though, that I have played more Standard than Modern lately, but I think I already said that.
@Blud Ale: I didn't in any shape or form indicate that the above mentioned cards were substitutes for Izzet Charm, and having read the text again, I fail to see how you would make that connection.
As far as the discussion about finisher go, well, I agree - Cruel Ultimatum is awesome. That is, when it sticks and when you have control. There was a time when Lingering Souls and Spectral Possession was a thing, and against those Thundermaw Hellkite was quite effective.
I have played games (against aggro) where they simply depleted my resources as I was forced to respond to their many threats. In those situations, the ultimatum wouldn't have done much of anything, and I would have preferred to draw Blue Sun's Zenith in order to find Damnation or other kill spells.
As far as Izzet Charm goes, I much prefer a hard counter. The Spell Pierce effect is too easily played around, the Shock is not potent enough (and too expensive), and the cycling is card disadvantage.
I'm still fitting in Mystical Teachings in my deck, but I don't see you guys are running it. What's the reason for that?
Thing about charm, is just about every deck that plays creatures in the meta plays creatures that have power 2 or less. When it comes to stabilizing against aggro, izzet charm isn't perfect, but it's better than having a hand full of mana leaks. If it's not your thing, then that's fine, but at the very least, you can't say it's terrible.
As for ultimatum, if you're facing a horde of creatures frequently that you can't deal with, it's probably a sign that you should re-evaluate your removal and other aspects of your deck. That's not to say that's necessarily the problem, but perhaps you could share what you're currently playing?
I'm also not sure why you would want zenith over ultimatum at 7. For 7 mana, blue sun's zenith draws you 4 cards, whereas cruel draws you 3, then grabs back a snapcaster, kills one of your opponent's creatures, and stabilizes your life total. If your opponent has to discard, that's just pudding on top. That's strictly superior to drawing 4 cards.
As for teachings, I just find it a bit too slow. It only starts to accrue card advantage after you've invested 10 mana into it. If the format had more draw-go mirrors where you're not forced to use your mana for removal or counters, it would be awesome, but that's just not the case in a midrange and aggressive format.
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I have played mostly Grixis Control in standard, but Dragon's Maze did bring us some goodies. I see some have already been discussed, but I'll recap:
Far//Away is a good and versatile card, which is something that you need. Usually, the Away part is the only thing you care about, but Far comes in handy against tokens and in recasting your Snapcaster Mage. It is a bit slow though, so I would recommend keeping around Geth's Verdict (I don't care much for Devour Flesh.)
Aetherling is a bit slow, even in Standard - but once resolved it ends game quickly. Obliviously, Cruel Ultimatum might be seen as a better finisher, so I would not run more than one. But I would still put one in, since there are cases where the Ultimatum doesn't work. Threat versatility is important.
Master of Cruelties is on the brink of being not standard-playable. However, Modern is plagued by life-gain decks and it might be a good weapon against such decks.
Notion Thief is an absolute beast in the control match-up. Your revelating opponent will never see it coming, most likely rage-quitting the minute you land it. Put it in the side-board if UWR or Esper control is a thing in your meta.
I'd also like to mention that if your meta is full of planes-walkers, that Magmaquake and Dreadbore are available to you. Magmaquake is an instant, and a little bit expensive, but it is still good. Dreadbore is a very useful card, but beware that it is sorcery speed. Against Jund though, it is quite the ace.
Finally, on Izzet Charm... that's just such a terrible card. Avoid it at all costs.
This may apply to standard, but Standard does not equal modern. Izzet charm is very important for winning counter wars, countering cards like birthing pod and Liliana, or simply killing deathrite shamans. Saying Izzet charm is terrible really is just not true in any way shape or form.
Notion thief is a sideboard card in standard against sphinx's revelation decks. In modern, the only deck that plays revelation is UWR draw-go, and it only plays 2-3 of them. Outside that matchup, there are almost zero decks that play draw spells in modern that would make Notion Thief matter. Unless they start reprinting brainstorm, I don't think Notion thief is going to be a great card in here (although, you could definitely choose a worse card).
As for creature finishers, once again, you don't need them (especially if they're only fringe playable in standard), and you especially don't need threat diversity in a control deck. UWR decks would love you to pay 6 mana to cast an Aetherling while they slam down a cryptic command and kill you with a Geist. It's just not a smart strategy. In standard, you can get away with big finishers much easier since there are very few counterspell decks and the format is much slower. There are a lot more decks with counters in Modern than there are in Standard.
So in Game 2 and 3 against them you'd be bringing in discard and slaughter games I'm guessing from what you just said xD, is there anything else you would bring in against them?
I typically get rid of damnations and devour flesh in favor of Shadow of Doubt, a singleton thoughtseize, and Slaughter Games. Note, this is against UWR wafo-tapa style draw go, not UWR midrange. I occasionally add in a singleton pithing needle (non trinket mage version) just to make dealing with resolved planeswalkers or manlands easier.
I usually save slaughter games for cryptic command or Revelation, but sometimes if I get an early inquisition, I'll follow it up with using slaughter games to force them to discard something that they already have in hand.
Batterskull can be better than wurmcoil since it's more resilient to path and removal spells, but it's splitting hairs. Either way, I don't think it's necessary to play either, but i've had better luck with batterskull in snapcaster mage decks since you can equip it soon after it gets "dealt with" and late game, you can bounce it to recast it later on.
I will say, I think this deck has a pretty solid leg up in the UWR control mirror. You just have a lot more tools to deal with them than they do to you. And while it may not be an instant, Cruel Ultimatum is way more devastating than Revalation, and you have more tools to resolve it than they do, especially during game 2 and 3, where you can wreck their hand with discard spells and slaughter games.
I can't speak for Magicman, but since our lists have been very similar, I think I can comment. To me, 25 lands is the "magic number" for lands in modern control. If you're playing 26 lands, I feel like I start to get flooded a lot, and at 24, I feel a bit low. In control mirrors, you can afford more land and tectonic edges, but in a more aggressive format, you want a higher spell count with super efficient removal and disruption.
The biggest thing to keep in mind, is the more cantripping effects you play, the less land you can afford to play with. If you're playing 4 serum visions, you may be able to afford 24 land, although I feel 2-3 is the right number of visions to play. Remand, Electrolyze, Repeal, Serum Visions, and Cryptic Command all help you to hit your land drops with greater ease while delaying your opponent's gameplan. With cruel control, you more or less just have to worry about controlling the board until you can reach 7 mana to resolve your ultimatum (which your cantrippers help to find).
I also want to emphasize one of the strengths of the list Magicman posted. It's incredibly consistent, even moreso than UWR wafo-tapa control (and it needs to be to hit cruel ultimatums consistently). This becomes extra helpful in game 2 and game 3 where you really want to make sure you can hit your slaughter games, damnation, or sowing salt on cue as of turn 4. Between Augur, serum visions, and all the other cantrip effects you play, you can consistently find cards that are only a 2-of in just about every game.
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I see all the decklists posted, and I was wondering how can this deck deal with urzatron? when they have the 2 lands, expedintion map and they are on the play it seems unwinnable for the this deck, as Sowing Salt and Shadow of Doubt are a turn too late.
Btw, what are the cards to bring in and side out in this matchup? I guess discard and counters are decent, but what else?
If they want to run their turn 3 Karn into a mana leak, then they're more than welcome to. After that you hit them with a sowing salt or slaughter games and proceed to win.
Not saying that tron is a good matchup, but they still have to play around izzet charm, mana leak, inquisition, and other cards before worrying about sowing salt and slaughter games.
Also, if they go too slow, even tron has a difficult time dealing with simply getting burned off or hit with ultimatums.
Overall I was really excited with how the deck played out and I think Grixis Control is definitely a real deck. It has a pretty high learning curve and requires good deckbuilding choices, but it did exactly what it was intended to do - read your opponent's strategy, control the game, and burn out the opponent. Thoughtflare was a real champ for me as it let me pitch less useful cards for much better ones while digging deep for the answers I needed. Also, absolutely do not underestimate the power of the "Augur get there" plan because it digs for answers while slowly taking a decent chunk out of your opponent's life total. With all the card filtering, your 2 and 1 ofs become a lot more relevant than usual so keep that in mind when constructing your build. I had a blast playing it and it really felt like a very solid and reliable deck
Sweet to hear! I'm a big fan of thoughtflare. To me, it's a gem card that is overlooked for various reasons, but has a lot of highly relevant applications and uses. I know it gets compared to revelation, but to me, it plays much different than revelation does between the dig potential for 5 mana (where revelation only gets 2 cards deep) and the filtering it provides.
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What are peoples thoughts on KaiserMagus's 3 Grafdigger Cage in the sideboard? is it worth weakening Snappy, which in my opinion is one of the key parts of the deck?
I don't see how it's better than relic outside of the birthing pod matchup. With that said, against birthing pod, it's really good.
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Woot - this got into the dailies. I don't really think everything is optimal (maindeck duress seems strange), but it looks cool overall. Far / Away is a cool idea, and I'm always a fan of Venser, Shaper Savant in decks.
It can be pretty competitive if built properly. It takes some practice and skill to play, especially in a diverse format like modern. The card advantage, disruption, and removal is second to none in the modern format. I would start with the most current list provided in the OP by MagicMan and go from there.
The drawbacks? Tron is still difficult to deal with, but it IS winnable (just not favorable). RDW and Burn based decks can be problematic since g1 you don't realistically have any life-gain until turn 7, and game 2 & 3, you can (will) get blown out by Blood Moon pretty easily. Affinity can also do a bloodmoon blow out (although dealing with their creatures isn't that difficult).
Dealing with resolved planeswalkers or birthing pods can also be annoying, especially if you aren't playing trinket mage / pithing needle maindeck. A resolved Liliana of the Veil or Ajani Vengeant is difficult to deal with when you don't have tons of creatures to attack them with. It's certainly manageable, but it's definitely an "annoyance" more than anything else.
Most other matchups are pretty "even". One strength of this deck is it's ability to deal with hexproof creatures that otherwise cause problems, namely Geist of Saint Traft via Devour Flesh (or Damnation).
After some practice, I also feel you're favored against most of the UWR decks as well, you just have to be careful to not let yourself get burned out before you can resolve an ultimatum.
I've said it 300000 times in this thread, but cruel control does not need expensive creature finishers. That's not to say that they'll always be bad, but it makes your deck a lot weaker against combo or control, and most aggro decks have you dead by the time you would be casting them anyway. Instead of filling your deck with more expensive creatures, you can devote that space towards more disruption and snapcaster mages, which form a mini-combo with Cruel Ultimatum that basically ensures they can't win. (Once you resolve 1 ultimatum, you either chain that into a second, or flashback the first, then proceed to chain the flashback into a 3rd ultimatum).
Cruel ultimatum has a much larger impact at 7 mana than Nicol Bolas does at 8 mana. This deck's biggest weakness is the fact that you play cards with a high curve, making early game stabilization more difficult if you start filling your deck with expensive cards. Think efficient and streamlined. Nicol Bolas is not good, and isn't even good enough to see play in standard. If you want more expensive finishers, just play more ultimatums (although you still end up with too high of a curve at that point).
I won't say think twice is awful, but I'm just not a big fan. It's good in very few matchups, those being the rare control matchup which is almost nonexistant in the format. Against any deck that's slightly aggressive (which is most of the format) you simply won't have any time to use it as you'll be using all your mana to deal with your opponent's threats. Because of this, the fact that it's really inefficient really causes some problems since it just sits in your hand doing nothing here. IF you play in a control heavy meta, then perhaps it's a good choice.
Personally, I look at Cruel Control as a deck that usually wants to win off the back of 1-2 very big and powerful sorceries. Against aggro, it's wrath effects early on followed by cruel. Against control or combo, it's simply about resolving a thoughtflare, and then a Cruel Ultimatum soon after. Serum visions may not be an instant, but it also only costs 1 mana, which enables you to hold up countermagic in easy fashion, while also enabling you to dig for your critical spells much easier. Additionally, you really don't want to be playing it until turn 3-5 anyway, where you can start digging for cards that you need once you've determined what deck you're playing against. The only time you really want to play it that early is when you need to hit land drops if you're short on lands.
Think twice does nothing to enable consistency or filtering, it's simply a 5 mana instant speed divination that is good against counterspell effects. I don't play the full suite of serum visions, but I wouldn't write it off before testing it in a similar shell. I've taken visions out, and added more, and maybe it's not that scientific, but I feel like the deck runs way more smooth when I play 2 visions.
I don't think delay is bad, but keep in mind, this isn't a deck that wins quickly. Delays will buy you 3 turns, then the card will still resolve as it normally would have. Unless you can win by then, it's going to be card disadvantage, which just isn't where you want to be. Delay has been historically good in tempo decks since they usually can kill the opponent by the time said spell would be resolving, making the "delay" effect somewhat irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
I've played a ton of variants of this. There is a list in the OP with trinket mage, although I will say, I think the most consistent overall variant is pretty similar to the list that Lord Owlington posted in the original post.
I don't play the exact 75 that he does, but it's pretty similar and features most of the same engines, and has pretty good matchups around the board for any given meta. Since i'm bored at home tonight, I decided to write out a quick card-by-card explanation of the list for cards that may not be staples (snapcaster, bolt, cruel, cryptic, etc). It's pretty in depth, and hopefully anybody looking to play cruel control can get a good read on the logic behind certain card choices, deck theories, and overall gameplan.
3x Augur of Bolas
2x Snapcaster Mage
Draw / Dig spells
2x Serum Visions
2x Thoughtflare
2x Cruel Ultimatum
Removal
2x Devour Flesh
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Electrolyze
2x Damnation
1x Terminate
non-creature disruption
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Izzet Charm
3x Remand
3x Cryptic Command
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Creeping Tar Pit
3x Cascade Bluffs
1x Dreadship Reef
2x Watery Grave
1x Snow-Covered Island
1x Snow-Covered Mountain
1x Snow-Covered Swamp
1x Lavaclaw Reaches
2x Steam Vents
2x River of Tears
1x Sulfur Falls
1x Drowned Catacomb
1x Blood Crypt
2x Shadow of Doubt
2x Rakdos Charm
2x Slaughter Games
1x Repeal
3x Spellskite
1x Pithing Needle
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Sowing Salt
1x Damnation
Deck theory and gameplan
Cruel control is a bit different than most modern control decks since it can basically play a gameplan of "resolve cruel ultimatum, win". Because of that, it's a deck that needs to hit land drops, and needs to keep a mostly stable board prior to that point to stay alive for 7-8 turns. The drawback is that you're playing a few cards that you probably don't want in your opening hand.
Due to playing 5-8 cards that cost 4cmc or higher, there are a lot of cantripping disruption spells (remand, electrolyze) in here, and there are more cards that promote consistency and digging than in other control decks like UWR draw-go (augur of bolas, thoughtflare, serum visions). This has the benefit of making powerful sideboard cards more consistent, and also allows you to sculpt your hand in a better fashion depending on which matchup you play.
Additionally, the consistency aspect is also shown through spells that are less narrow, and are greater in a broader range of matchups. Since spells that can't be used in certain matchups are the equivalent to discarding said card, you see a lower volume of hard removal spells like Terminate, and more removal that can be used as burn or counterspell effects (bolt, electrolyze, Izzet Charm, Cryptic Command) Since they are never dead in any given matchup. In other words, it's better to have a card be "good" in a lot of matchups than to have a lot of cards that are incredibly awesome in a few matchups, and terrible in a lot of matchups. This is meta dependent of course, and if you know your meta is 100% creatures for example, playing 4 damnation and multiple terminates may not be a bad idea.
*Against creature matchups, you play a ton of 2 for 1 effects to deal with creatures effectively and efficiently. The fact that you play cruel ultimatum puts aggro opponents in a bind over whether to overextend into a wrath, or to hold their creatures in hand only to be discarded by a resolved ultimatum.
*Against combo opponents, you play more disruption than any of the tier control decks do, and have a more potent sideboard to deal with the combo decks of the format (slaughter games, rakdos charm). Combo matchups are generally pretty easy assuming you don't draw terribly.
*Against control opponents, you are playing more disruption than they are, and their slow counterburn game is pretty ineffective once you resolve a cruel ultimatum. Resolving an ultimatum here isn't super easy, but you have hand disruption and cards like Thoughtflare to bait out any countermagic they may be playing anyway. Slaughter games can be a decent sideboard card in these matchups as well, since it can get rid of key cards such as Gifts Ungiven, Cryptic Command, or Sphinx's Revelation.
I'm a big believer in versatility in general, and good decks shouldn't be vulnerable to any single "hate" card. I've had a lot of players sideboard in cards like Leyline of Sanctity, which is effective for a few turns until it gets bounced with a cryptic command before I force them to discard it with a following Cruel Ultimatum.
Card Explanations (for less common maindeck cards)
Augur of Bolas:
Against aggro decks, it buys you a turn blocking (and will often live) while digging for wraths or removal. Against combo decks, augur digs for counters, hand disruption, or important sideboard pieces.
Against midrange decks, augur allows you to deal with Liliana of the Veil much easier since it at least gives you a small body to ping away at her while you try to find a Lightning Bolt or Creeping Tar Pit to fully remove an active Liliana.
Against control augur gives you something to do when you have extra mana and your'e trying to get ahead. The bonus here, is that their removal won't trade evenly since augur draws you a card, and it can slowly ping away at your opponents life total, which actually becomes somewhat relevant in longer games.
Furthermore, Augur also provides the benefit of being a body that can be grabbed back when you cast your first cruel ultimatum (assuming that it has already died).
Devour Flesh
While not ideal, devour flesh can be used on your own augurs to gain 3 life against problematic burn decks. Devour flesh IS bad against cards like lingering souls or noble hierarch, but playing 3 electrolyzes as well as 2 wraths helps to mitigate that drawback.
In rare situations, you can even use devour flesh to kill an Emrakul to buy a turn or two against a deck such as tron.
Izzet Charm
I'm a big believer in versatility and efficiency when building control decks. In a format that has a ton of diverse threats and answers, decks with versatile answers can be competitive against a broader field of opponents.
Izzet charm plays this role to at tee. It counters the cards that give you fits if they resolve early (Birthing Pod, Liliana of the Veil, Elspeth, Knight Errant) while also keeping the ability to kill most of the problematic creatures you could deal with (Dark Confidant, Melira, Deathrite shaman, Thalia, etc). The loot ability isn't great, but if you have a lot of cards in hand that you don't need, it can play a role as an extra card to dig for more important answers.
With that said, Inquisition is a versatile 1 mana spell that can at least help deal with a lot of problematic cards. The slot for inquisition was either going to a discard effect or spell snare, and I decided that there were more relevant cards that inquisition hit than snare, so it got the go ahead. The only problem is it doesn't provide the same tempo boost a spell snare can, but it's generally a matter of preference.
I like inquisition more in here partially due to the sideboard, and also due to the inclusion of thoughtflare. Being able to discard inquisition which often becomes 100% useless after turn 4-5 via thoughtflare makes it's drawback of being a sorcery speed card that is bad against decks that can empty their hand much more manageable.
Thoughtflare
While thoughtflare isn't cheap, it also digs 4 cards deep, and will net you +4 cards that you actually need, while simultaneously gaining card advantage. If you can stabilize the board enough to land a thoughtflare, winning the game should be somewhat easy afterward.
While visions is a step down from preordain, it's really not as big of a difference as many people feel it would be. In a deck with a few expensive spells, it helps you mitigate problems associated with getting flooded with lands, expensive spells, or simply cards that aren't needed. Adding 2 along with the augur of bolas suite really helped to improve consistency and consistently hit cruel ultimatums, damnations, and thoughtflares when you need them.
In my testing, I found I liked 2-3 more than playing all 4, but either is good. Preordain also plays the role of allowing you to actually use your cards in control mirrors to sculpt a superior hand and board state, where your opponent will most likely just focus on trying to burn you out.
This card was made popular by Wafo-tapa UWR draw-go, and for good reason. It's one of the only 3 mana cards that can 3 for 1 an opponent. Against decks like Birthing pod which play a lot of smaller creatures, it can be used at the end of a turn to set them way back, and against non-creature decks, it's an end-of-turn burn spell that cantrips so you don't lose card advantage.
The main downfall of electrolyze is that it won't kill tarmogoyf, or any larger creature, but you can either combine it with a block (augur of bolas or snapcaster) to kill larger creatures, or hold out until you can wrath the board and use the electrolyze to pick off anything that persisted or remaining creatures they later cast.
Remand
Remand also has the bonus of being stronger against Lingering souls than Mana leak is, and can be used on your own spells if you need to draw a card (although that's pretty rare).
Damnation
Similar to Inquisition of Kozilek, damnation is made better by playing thoughtflare, which allows you to trade it for a better card if it's dead in the current matchup.
I'm not a big believer in either in the format, but Jace Beleren is probably the better card overall. That being said, if you rely more on hand disruption, planeswalkers are probably slightly better since you don't rely so much on playing at instant speed (which has advantages as well as drawbacks).
Dreadship reef isn't played that much probably because it's simply not a super popular card for newer players who don't have experience playing with storage lands. If you're playing cruel, I agree, it's super important.
I sort of agree. The main issue with burn, is it's just a bad matchup. The problem with spellskite against burn is that it won't block lava spike, boros charm, or bump in the night, all of which are relevant cards in the matchup. It also gives your burn opponent a target to make their inevitable searing blaze relevant.
Void is pretty bad. You would be better off playing persecute, which also sees very little play and is a bit slow.
I've never understood the love for think twice. The only time it's ever half-way decent is in the grindy control mirrors that are almost nonexistant in modern. The thing about think twice, is it requires a total of 5 mana to actually net you just 1 extra card. That's incredibly inefficient. Thoughtflare for 5 mana nets you +2 cards, and also is extremely effective for digging and filtering draws. If you just want the cantrip, you're better off playing peek than think twice.
I wouldn't discount Thoughtflare's power just because it isn't played much in standard. Standard is a much different format, and most of those decks are playing Sphinx's revelation instead anyway, and the cards play two similar, but very different roles.
Most of us have adopted Devour Flesh as a staple in our lists since it deals with Geist of Saint Traft, Bogles, while also being an effective kill spell against Tarmogoyf or Dark Confidant. It even can handle Emrakul for a turn or two before they fetch it up again off Eye of Ugin. The variant that is posted in the OP works really well when you pair devour flesh with Augur of Bolas, since it gives you a way to gain 3 life at instant speed against decks like Burn.
Burn is a bad matchup, just how it is. The main problem isn't just the burn, but rather the fact that so many players sideboard in blood moon as well. Some of us play sun droplet, but that's really only good against burn and nothing else. I personally recommend the augur of bolas + devour flesh strategy as a small way that you can help out your burn matchup. Spellskites of course help here too as they also do against twin, infect and bogles. It's the most widely played SB card in modern for a pretty good reason.
Thing about charm, is just about every deck that plays creatures in the meta plays creatures that have power 2 or less. When it comes to stabilizing against aggro, izzet charm isn't perfect, but it's better than having a hand full of mana leaks. If it's not your thing, then that's fine, but at the very least, you can't say it's terrible.
As for ultimatum, if you're facing a horde of creatures frequently that you can't deal with, it's probably a sign that you should re-evaluate your removal and other aspects of your deck. That's not to say that's necessarily the problem, but perhaps you could share what you're currently playing?
I'm also not sure why you would want zenith over ultimatum at 7. For 7 mana, blue sun's zenith draws you 4 cards, whereas cruel draws you 3, then grabs back a snapcaster, kills one of your opponent's creatures, and stabilizes your life total. If your opponent has to discard, that's just pudding on top. That's strictly superior to drawing 4 cards.
As for teachings, I just find it a bit too slow. It only starts to accrue card advantage after you've invested 10 mana into it. If the format had more draw-go mirrors where you're not forced to use your mana for removal or counters, it would be awesome, but that's just not the case in a midrange and aggressive format.
This may apply to standard, but Standard does not equal modern. Izzet charm is very important for winning counter wars, countering cards like birthing pod and Liliana, or simply killing deathrite shamans. Saying Izzet charm is terrible really is just not true in any way shape or form.
Notion thief is a sideboard card in standard against sphinx's revelation decks. In modern, the only deck that plays revelation is UWR draw-go, and it only plays 2-3 of them. Outside that matchup, there are almost zero decks that play draw spells in modern that would make Notion Thief matter. Unless they start reprinting brainstorm, I don't think Notion thief is going to be a great card in here (although, you could definitely choose a worse card).
As for creature finishers, once again, you don't need them (especially if they're only fringe playable in standard), and you especially don't need threat diversity in a control deck. UWR decks would love you to pay 6 mana to cast an Aetherling while they slam down a cryptic command and kill you with a Geist. It's just not a smart strategy. In standard, you can get away with big finishers much easier since there are very few counterspell decks and the format is much slower. There are a lot more decks with counters in Modern than there are in Standard.
I typically get rid of damnations and devour flesh in favor of Shadow of Doubt, a singleton thoughtseize, and Slaughter Games. Note, this is against UWR wafo-tapa style draw go, not UWR midrange. I occasionally add in a singleton pithing needle (non trinket mage version) just to make dealing with resolved planeswalkers or manlands easier.
I usually save slaughter games for cryptic command or Revelation, but sometimes if I get an early inquisition, I'll follow it up with using slaughter games to force them to discard something that they already have in hand.
I will say, I think this deck has a pretty solid leg up in the UWR control mirror. You just have a lot more tools to deal with them than they do to you. And while it may not be an instant, Cruel Ultimatum is way more devastating than Revalation, and you have more tools to resolve it than they do, especially during game 2 and 3, where you can wreck their hand with discard spells and slaughter games.
I can't speak for Magicman, but since our lists have been very similar, I think I can comment. To me, 25 lands is the "magic number" for lands in modern control. If you're playing 26 lands, I feel like I start to get flooded a lot, and at 24, I feel a bit low. In control mirrors, you can afford more land and tectonic edges, but in a more aggressive format, you want a higher spell count with super efficient removal and disruption.
The biggest thing to keep in mind, is the more cantripping effects you play, the less land you can afford to play with. If you're playing 4 serum visions, you may be able to afford 24 land, although I feel 2-3 is the right number of visions to play. Remand, Electrolyze, Repeal, Serum Visions, and Cryptic Command all help you to hit your land drops with greater ease while delaying your opponent's gameplan. With cruel control, you more or less just have to worry about controlling the board until you can reach 7 mana to resolve your ultimatum (which your cantrippers help to find).
I also want to emphasize one of the strengths of the list Magicman posted. It's incredibly consistent, even moreso than UWR wafo-tapa control (and it needs to be to hit cruel ultimatums consistently). This becomes extra helpful in game 2 and game 3 where you really want to make sure you can hit your slaughter games, damnation, or sowing salt on cue as of turn 4. Between Augur, serum visions, and all the other cantrip effects you play, you can consistently find cards that are only a 2-of in just about every game.
If they want to run their turn 3 Karn into a mana leak, then they're more than welcome to. After that you hit them with a sowing salt or slaughter games and proceed to win.
Not saying that tron is a good matchup, but they still have to play around izzet charm, mana leak, inquisition, and other cards before worrying about sowing salt and slaughter games.
Also, if they go too slow, even tron has a difficult time dealing with simply getting burned off or hit with ultimatums.
Sweet to hear! I'm a big fan of thoughtflare. To me, it's a gem card that is overlooked for various reasons, but has a lot of highly relevant applications and uses. I know it gets compared to revelation, but to me, it plays much different than revelation does between the dig potential for 5 mana (where revelation only gets 2 cards deep) and the filtering it provides.
I don't see how it's better than relic outside of the birthing pod matchup. With that said, against birthing pod, it's really good.
1 Blood Crypt
4 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Island
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Sunken Ruins
2 Watery Grave
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
4 Cryptic Command
2 Damnation
1 Dismember
3 Duress
3 Electrolyze
1 Far/Away
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
2 Shadow of Doubt
2 Terminate
1 Batterskull
2 Counterflux
1 Devour Flesh
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Magma Spray
2 Shadow of Doubt
2 Slaughter Games
2 Sowing Salt
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
It can be pretty competitive if built properly. It takes some practice and skill to play, especially in a diverse format like modern. The card advantage, disruption, and removal is second to none in the modern format. I would start with the most current list provided in the OP by MagicMan and go from there.
The drawbacks? Tron is still difficult to deal with, but it IS winnable (just not favorable). RDW and Burn based decks can be problematic since g1 you don't realistically have any life-gain until turn 7, and game 2 & 3, you can (will) get blown out by Blood Moon pretty easily. Affinity can also do a bloodmoon blow out (although dealing with their creatures isn't that difficult).
Dealing with resolved planeswalkers or birthing pods can also be annoying, especially if you aren't playing trinket mage / pithing needle maindeck. A resolved Liliana of the Veil or Ajani Vengeant is difficult to deal with when you don't have tons of creatures to attack them with. It's certainly manageable, but it's definitely an "annoyance" more than anything else.
Most other matchups are pretty "even". One strength of this deck is it's ability to deal with hexproof creatures that otherwise cause problems, namely Geist of Saint Traft via Devour Flesh (or Damnation).