Condescend is an interesting card, and I definitely think it warrants more play than it currently sees. I'd be interested to hear back results. One advantage of condescend is that it can still counter spells late in the game unlike leak, it just becomes a lot more expensive to do so.
As for Thoughtflare, I don't think it's proper to compare it to Blue Sun's Zenith or Revelation. I personally look at flare as a very strong filter spell that just happens to gain card advantage at the same time.
Keep in mind, your late game card advantage engine is Cruel Ultimatum, which also serves as your finisher. Thoughtflare on the other hand keeps your cards flowing smoothly mid-game, and sets up your ultimatum a few turns down the road.
As for Draining Whelk, it seems really expensive what amounts to mystic snake. Have you considered playing Teferi instead?
and for me, what I liked about condescend is that it's a hard counter unlike remand. Don't get me wrong, I like remand but I don't like that it only delays them from playing the card, unless like I said before, we bounce our own but that's why I run a singleton of remand and I'll bump condescend to 2 in my list but the issue is I'm not sure where to take out an extra card..it either comes down to electrolyze or a land cutting my mana base to a low 24
Yeah I want to test out condescend as well but I think I'm going to run 2of instead of 4. For me personally, I like it because of the scry 2. I've been looking for more ways to dig deeper and hitting an ultimatum but I haven't wanted to add more draw spells so this seems to play into the mix pretty well.
Draining Whelk is my solution to my feeling like I am not doing enough / wasting time when keeping counter magic up but not finding a target. I played at my LGS on Modern Wednesday recently and will write a report when I get off work later. I would love to read thoughts in the mean time.
Best,
Zachtraps
I like the idea of Draining Whelk but I'm not convinced as to run him. He's pretty costly and with 4 remands I don't know how that will turn out as it's only delaying them from playing the cards, not putting the cards away. However if you plan on bouncing your own spells back then that's something else.
My question is the choice of draw spells, why would you use say thoughtflare over Blue Sun's Zenith? We always complain about not having sphinx's revelation, my initial impression is that blue sun's zenith would be a better replacement.
Because It's faster and cheaper. For 5 mana you're getting 4 cards where the 4x mana you'd have to tap to draw 4 cards would set your mana cost to 7 with blue sun's zenith. The discard isn't that much of a factor really because of our snaps.
Edit:
Also I was just thinking about Condescend. Thoughts?
My meta is faily simple. It's only a handful of players and theres a range of mil, UTron and R/GTRon, hatebears, equip storm and some other nonsense. I'll have to keep notes of my matches the next time I go in.
Edit: One of the Tron decks at my tourny is my girlfriends brother R/G Tron and I play him on a daily basis and it seems as of lately I've been able to stump him more on game 1 and just take off on games 2 and 3.
And with 25 mana I still feel like I get flooded more than necessary. A lot of turns go by where I just drop mana but wont see a cruel until it's nearly too late. Sometimes I don't even need to land one because I take him down with creeping tar pit and lightning bolt. Game 2 and 3 become a breeze if you're able to stick a sowing salt.
27 might be one too many, but it's not as crazy as you guys might think. The Extended version of this deck had 27 lands, and it had arguably more card draw/cantripping than we had. Even with 27 lands I found myself getting stuck on 5 a few times. If you're playing 25 you're insane, but 26 is defensible in my opinion.
I've made a few other small changes to the list as well. I cut a Damnation for a Pyroclasm, as 'clasm is basically just a Wrath in this format anyway. I also cut an Augur and the Tribute for a Spell Snare and an Izzet Charm. I hate not having early answers to things like Deathrite Shaman, Bob, and Liliana, and these things up the answer count.
I run 25 lands in my list and I do well getting the 7 I need fairly well. It's Seeing a Cruel more often that would make me happy but I feel adding a 3rd may be a bit too much. Maybe it's what I need? Who knows.
I've been looking at shunt the past few days. Maybe as a 1 of if not 2 SB. I'm not sure if its ruled out for us for any reason but I think I'll give it some testing and see what I come up with
While to an extent the deck does not need big splashy finishers, I found you do need to end the game somehow, the "splashy" finishers help with that, particularly Aetherling more than Bolas (and note it is a one of) 6 mana isn't terrible for a deck that wants to snapcaster cryptic
Thoughtflare I'll test seems sweet
I understand the consistency with Serum Visions, realistically I want my cantrip to well
I am viewing the deck as a heavy permission deck, using early discard and late-game counters to control the board until you stabilize and then cast a finisher
Delay is better vs Counter magic and removal as a Mana leak/Remand looks quite bad when it comes off suspend with no spells on the stack
How do the singletons work out for you?
IMO, which isn't much, but IMO your curve looks high and makes for a slow start.
How often do you find your cruel/nicol?
Do you find yourself screwed early game more often then not?
I would like to know how testing has gone for you.
Inquisition of Kozilek can be better than Thoughtseize if you're expecting more aggro in your meta than control/combo decks where the wider selection is better. That's why I play IoK over Thoughtseize at least. I do agree with you on the Slagstorm part though, Pyroclasm is almost always better. The single red mana is allows it be cast easier, and also faster its faster.
To me it seems Volcanic Fallout would be a more viable option seeing as how it's instant and for the price you get protection from counters.
@magicman: No, not paper events, unfortunately - but I have played my fair share of MODO games. It is true though, that I have played more Standard than Modern lately, but I think I already said that.
@Blud Ale: I didn't in any shape or form indicate that the above mentioned cards were substitutes for Izzet Charm, and having read the text again, I fail to see how you would make that connection.
As far as the discussion about finisher go, well, I agree - Cruel Ultimatum is awesome. That is, when it sticks and when you have control. There was a time when Lingering Souls and Spectral Possession was a thing, and against those Thundermaw Hellkite was quite effective.
I have played games (against aggro) where they simply depleted my resources as I was forced to respond to their many threats. In those situations, the ultimatum wouldn't have done much of anything, and I would have preferred to draw Blue Sun's Zenith in order to find Damnation or other kill spells.
As far as Izzet Charm goes, I much prefer a hard counter. The Spell Pierce effect is too easily played around, the Shock is not potent enough (and too expensive), and the cycling is card disadvantage.
I'm still fitting in Mystical Teachings in my deck, but I don't see you guys are running it. What's the reason for that?
You said izzet charm was just an awfully terrible card so I said that i would much rather draw that card then any you had mentioned. There was no connection made, I'm stating my opinion that izzet charm isn't such a bad card and that I'd much rather see it then the others.
I was actually thinking about removing my last terminate for a 3rd of something else, like izzet charm, because the likely hood of me pulling that terminate when I need/want it is unlikely.
Is the spell snare for when you drop a cruel and want to counter war? Or as a quick counter for cheap spells? I've never played one.
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and for me, what I liked about condescend is that it's a hard counter unlike remand. Don't get me wrong, I like remand but I don't like that it only delays them from playing the card, unless like I said before, we bounce our own but that's why I run a singleton of remand and I'll bump condescend to 2 in my list but the issue is I'm not sure where to take out an extra card..it either comes down to electrolyze or a land cutting my mana base to a low 24
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I like the idea of Draining Whelk but I'm not convinced as to run him. He's pretty costly and with 4 remands I don't know how that will turn out as it's only delaying them from playing the cards, not putting the cards away. However if you plan on bouncing your own spells back then that's something else.
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Because It's faster and cheaper. For 5 mana you're getting 4 cards where the 4x mana you'd have to tap to draw 4 cards would set your mana cost to 7 with blue sun's zenith. The discard isn't that much of a factor really because of our snaps.
Edit:
Also I was just thinking about Condescend. Thoughts?
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Edit: One of the Tron decks at my tourny is my girlfriends brother R/G Tron and I play him on a daily basis and it seems as of lately I've been able to stump him more on game 1 and just take off on games 2 and 3.
And with 25 mana I still feel like I get flooded more than necessary. A lot of turns go by where I just drop mana but wont see a cruel until it's nearly too late. Sometimes I don't even need to land one because I take him down with creeping tar pit and lightning bolt. Game 2 and 3 become a breeze if you're able to stick a sowing salt.
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I run 25 lands in my list and I do well getting the 7 I need fairly well. It's Seeing a Cruel more often that would make me happy but I feel adding a 3rd may be a bit too much. Maybe it's what I need? Who knows.
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true. Wasn't thinking of that when I thought about shunt.
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How do the singletons work out for you?
IMO, which isn't much, but IMO your curve looks high and makes for a slow start.
How often do you find your cruel/nicol?
Do you find yourself screwed early game more often then not?
I would like to know how testing has gone for you.
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To me it seems Volcanic Fallout would be a more viable option seeing as how it's instant and for the price you get protection from counters.
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You said izzet charm was just an awfully terrible card so I said that i would much rather draw that card then any you had mentioned. There was no connection made, I'm stating my opinion that izzet charm isn't such a bad card and that I'd much rather see it then the others.
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Is the spell snare for when you drop a cruel and want to counter war? Or as a quick counter for cheap spells? I've never played one.
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