This list did pretty well. Odd that he opted for only 3 hierarchs, but I do like that mana tithe, and I'm a huge fan of renegade rallier. Why is it that more GW lists don't play voice of resurgence? Also, when do you think the pilot would bring in the 3 copies of wilt leaf liege? Perhaps against GBX decks with Liliana? I pretty much have GW built in paper, just trying to make some final touches before an event this Saturday...
I actually run 3 Hierarchs in my WG, and Spider runs only 7 Vial/Hierarchs at a time, depending on if he's on the play or draw. Our reasoning is essentially the same: mitigate the number of dead, late-game topdecks.
Singleton Mana Tithe is a fine idea, but it's another bad topdeck. I think it's fine to run one, but as soon as your opponent sees it, you should probably board it out, because he or she will be playing around it for the rest of the match anyway.
Renegade Rallier is okay, but it's highly dependent on the structure of the rest of your deck. I'm not actually sure if I like it in that list, because there are only sevenlands that enable it. I'm sure it plays better because the pilot is blinkingBlade Splicers, but you need to have an active Vial in order to enable that line.
I play Voice of Resurgence in my WG build. My metagame is filled with spot removal, so Voice was a great way to punish my opponents for running it. Most people don't run it because it doesn't actually do anything to affect the boardstate. It's a pseudo-Grand-Abolisher timing restriction, but as anyone who's played with Abolisher can tell you, your opponents are just going to play around it. Voice of Resurgence is pretty awful as a 2/2 bear, but if your opponents are running attrition or control decks, it can be a nice card to have.
Wilt-Leaf Liege does come in against GBx. Like Loxodon Smiter, it's a great way of punishing your opponent for running discard. Remember that if Smiter is the only legal target in your hand, your opponent must choose it. Liege is used when you're running cards like Voice and Smiter, because they get +2/+2 instead of +1/+1. This typically means you have to build your deck less like D&T, and more like Hatebears; you lose a lot of your control elements in favor of your raw power and clock.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Ktken left and he was our data guy. Were still figuring our new cut offs without him. If I went by what I think "probably is" tier 1, theres only 3 decks that fit that %.
Basically, where our cut offs are, how long we track data, and where do we get that data... were gunna be working on that for a while.
I'm a little surprised that Ktkenshinx didn't just leave you (and the rest of the moderating team) with his cutoff methodology. I imagine it's proprietary to him, but unless he's going to try to monetize his efforts, wasn't the best option to just give you his process?
As far as this deck goes. It actually had a spike last month, and steady wins since then.
While I like D&T, there is no reason we should be Tier 1. The format is so fluid that one month of increased interest doesn't really say anything, other than maybe we're better positioned now than we were two months ago. That sentiment is especially poignant given we hadn't received many (if any) new tools in a while (before Amonkhet). I can't think of anything in Aether Revolt that became a mainstay, and the only tool we got in Kaladesh was Smuggler's Copter. Admittedly, I don't know what caused a spike in interest, but I have a hard time coming up with a reasonable explanation for why this deck should be considered Tier 1 using pre-Amonkhet data.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Not going to list all the millions of changes I did in the last 7 hours... But Since there was an update:
Tiers updated... ALOT
Some of you may have noticed the tiering updating has lagged behind alot recently. Our data collection manager (ktken) is retiring from staff, so collection has been pretty hard for us. We are changing our systems completly, and over the next month I'll be rolling out the new benchmarks we use to tiering and testing them over the next half a year or so.
So just bare with us for a month, and everything will be clear and tip top shape.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
In light of the recent lack of unbannings for Modern, I'm curious as to how Stoneforge Mystic would change our deck. She has antisynergy with Leonin Arbiter but she just fits in with our small taxers sooooo well. What would DnT look like if SFM were unbanned?
We would probably run it, but it's not a certainty. Today, there are a lot of tools that keep SFM in check, including veryefficientremoval and discard.
The SFM/Batterskull package really punishes aggro, which is a large part of the format. But it does very little against control and it's only situationally useful against combo.
If the event that it were unbanned, I imagine that we immediately jam 4 copies with a Batterskull/Swords package until the metagame adjusts, at which point we have to become smarter about running it or not running it.
It would be a 0.5 Tier deck, making several Top 8s in tournaments. SFM just gets better with every new set, same problem Birthing Pod has. I really want her being unbanned, but that will never happen
This simply isn't true. If anything, SFM is getting worse with every new set. The reasons are twofold:
1) The removal is becoming moreefficient.
2) The equipment isn't powerful anymore.
The assertion that SFM has the same problem as Birthing Pod is ridiculous; every set is somewhat likely to have powerful creatures (the Birthing Pod problem), but not every set is likely to have powerful equipment (the SFM problem). In fact, SFM has been approximately the same power level since New Phyrexia, when Batterskull and Sword of War and Peace were released. Except theremoval in new sets has gotten much more efficient, meaning that SFM is comparatively much weaker than it used to be.
SFM is a good card. I suspect that we would play it if it were unbanned, but it's not going to be the piece that pushes this deck to Tier 1, let alone Tier 0.5.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
We've seen some DnT decks sideboard Wraths before, do you think that Dusk could see play in sideboards? It's a grindy card that leaves some of our board state in tact, and in the late game gives us some recursion.
I know @CharonsObol has a spot for that card in his 75 reserved. I have played wrath in board before and while its a great a tool, I tend to not have a strategy that supplements it very well. I usually am trying to play more creatures that are above that 3 (or more) power curve. But as you point out, this leaves us with something and offers a snap caster vibe from the 'yard. I will leave the task of discovery this cards potential to @CharonsObol.
Sorry I'm so late to the party! It's been a busy few days.
I actually like Dusk, because it's a conditional Wrath that leaves us with a lot of our taxes. It also gets better with maindeck Selfless Spirit, which is pretty good to have anyway.
The problem with Dusk is that I'm not sure which matchups I would use it for. It's good against decks that put a lot of sizable creatures on the battlefield, and there just aren't many of those. I like Dusk against Merfolk and maybe Zoo, but Affinity, Elves, and Abzan combo dodge the effect just like we do. Maybe it's still worth 2-for-1'ing Jund or Abzan aggro, but it's not typically the blowout that we want it to be. I think Dusk actually gets a lot of its value from the Dawn side, because when BGx makes you discard it and then makes you sacrifice your creatures, you still get back a lot of your board state.
I'm definitely going to test Dusk to Dawn in my sideboard. I think it's typically competing against things in the EE slot (because that's currently the card in my board doing the most work against Merfolk and Zoo), but it does have potential upside in attrition-based matchups.
On another subject, I think with the addition of Harsh Mentor to the red suite, I'm finally going to move over to testing WR D&T. I'll try to have a mini-primer for it sometime this coming summer.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
What do you guys think of the new white god? Better than Heliod, God of the Sun? I had some success with Heliod in the past, but lately i've been playing Elspeth, Knight-Errant instead.
I think it really depends on your build. If you're running a lotoftokenproducers and manlands, it might be worth it. But Oketra seems less impactful than most of our four-drops in a vacuum.
I'm excited to try out Oketra, but I play very non-traditional D&T builds.
leyline will let you land your sideboard hate card, otherwise you need to expect it to get discarded.
Have you considered Nephalia Academy? Came across that card but never actually played it. E&T can't really afford to play it, but maybe other builds can.
Nephalia Academy doesn't work on the draw, because it's that first Thoughtseize that does the most work.
Plus, you don't want to be running Academy in high multiples (because the effect isn't cumulative) and running it at all is a huge concession of a colorlesslandslot to your GBx matchups.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
How does it help the deck?
If you can't swing through (and survive) you'll need some other way to tap the creatures which the deck doesn't have as far as I know.
It greatly increases our clock. Getting extra points of damage every turn is a huge boon for a deck that runs almost 30 creatures in it. Plus, I regularly run Lingering Souls, and Throne of the God-Pharaoh makes that card even more ridiculous.
But even in more conventional builds, Throne of the God-Pharaoh will occasionally you an opportunity to win a turn early; Your opponent won't necessarily get a chance to swing back for an alpha strike.
I'm calling it now that this card will exist as a reasonable 2-slot option for a long time to come.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
What do people think of the new white weenie? Might be interesting in more aggro builds, though it is somewhat awkward with exert.
I care a lot more about Throne of the God-Pharaoh, which looks insane for our deck. Did we really just get access to a colorless burn spell? Isn't this the inevitability that we've always wanted?
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
A Green and white version of the deck just finished 5-2 in the online modern ptq this past weekend. Thats pretty impressive considering the stiff competition in those events.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Our meta is like 90% control. I believe the finks are meant to just be annoying creatures for control to deal with.
Finks are good against both aggro and control. I don't know what the control decks in your/his metagame look like, but the Grixis decks over here are packing Magma Spray and Anger of the Gods in addition to Fatal Push. Finks is typically good against things like Burn, where it not only gains you life, but also clogs up the ground.
I don't think his list is particularly strong. Even with his brewing to beat control I think I've only lost to him once when he was on his death and taxes deck. He builds and plays it a lot like merfolk, a deck he's extremely good with, but it isn't merfolk and can't be built like it.
None of his lists are particularly strong. I'm probably one of his biggest critics in this thread, but I don't know why a person who can't build the deck properly is writing about it. It's the blind leading the blind, I guess.
He also does test things out a ton though, which often results in bad decks but I can respect trying different things out. Who knows when you're going to stumble across the next big innovation in the deck.
Testing is good. We do a lot of testing here, and we discuss the innovations that come from tournament-successful lists. I applaud anyone for testing, including Ernenwein. But I'm just not impressed with what I've seen from his articles.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
In a surprise move, I don't actually hate this article. Ernenwein finally wrote something about our deck that wasn't trash, and I'm going to give him credit for it.
His mono-white list is still mediocre, opting for five(?!) non-Vial one drops. He relies heavily on flicker packages, which is a good way to go, but his choice of two maindeck Finks is particularly interesting to me. I haven't tried Finks in a little while, but I have to believe that the metagame is so aggro-heavy that it's actually a good choice. It also puts in work against Fatal Push, which seems smart given some of the Grixis decks I've seen lately.
His description of splashes makes me believe he reads this thread. It's mostly just restating the things that we've been saying (and playing) for years, so good on him for finally catching up.
His assessment of the deck's weaknesses are accurate, and his discussion of SFM is consistent with the things that get said here.
I realize that this article really wasn't for us (because we already play the deck), but if it inspires someone else to pick up the deck, so much the better. Again, Ernenwein has picked up his game a little bit. It's rough around the edges, but improvement is improvement.
And finally, because it's obligatory at this point: we're not Hatebears. We never were Hatebears. We will never be Hatebears.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
But this is a deck built around maximizing Restoration Angel's strengths - TKS' effect is neat, but does it match up to blowing someone out with a flashed-in Restoration Angel in response to an opponent's removal spell on your Blade Splicer? Or blinking the Splicer as a combat trick to completely change an opponent's combat math?
Generally speaking, no one spends their removal spell hitting the 1/1 Blade Splicer. It's a 20 turn clock, maybe 15 because this is Modern. But the number of times I've saved a Blade Splicer with a Blade Splicer is actually zero, and if that number is higher for you, I'm blaming your opponents.
However, the combat math thing can be a big deal. That said, once you try to play Resto to change the combat math, that's where your opponent will remove Blade Splicer in response, effectively negating your value.
Clearly, we have different experiences with Restoration Angel. I like flash and flying, but I don't like waiting for the right opportunity to play it.
I don't think it does, especially when jamming T4 TKS into open mana results in it just getting zapped with its trigger on the stack (as I've done many a time).
Not a problem, because I get to Thoughtseize my opponent for no mana and no life.
It can also get stonewalled on the ground by a beefy Goyf or Death's Shadow.
It can, yes. But if your opponent is leaving those creatures back to block, then you're already way ahead. And if your opponent is swinging with those creatures, then Restoration Angel isn't going to stop them either.
Most of us are on 7-10 colorless sources anyway, plus Aether Vial. Like you suggest, I've had TKS stuck in my hand before. But it's not as big of a problem as you're suggesting.
The math only changes once Eldrazi Temple is added to the deck, which makes TKS more like a 3.5 drop.
The math doesn't change at all, because your density of colorless sources should remain the same. If you couldn't cast TKS before with your 8 colorless sources, changing some of them to Eldrazi Temples isn't going to help you.
TKS does get better when you cast it before T4, because it's more likely to remove a relevant card in your opponent's hand. But Eldrazi Temple isn't actually required to get value out of TKS.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
One question; is thought-knot seer good enough on its own? I was talking to a more modern savvy friend and he was saying I should run TKS maindeck in my mono white version, but I am hesitant to run it alongside restoration angel, because I want my curve to end relatively low, and having more than 4 four-drops seems like the wrong way to go.
I don't think so, no. Thought-Knot Seer's competitive advantage is that it can be powered out ahead of schedule by Eldrazi Temples. If you don't have those, I'm of the opinion that Restoration Angel is the stronger card. And as you noted, you really don't want more than 4 4-drops.
I'm going to disagree with you about this.
On the curve or with an active Vial, I'd rather have TKS than Restoration Angel. TKS's ability is extremely potent disruption, frequently stripping my opponents of massremoval or cheaptargetedremoval. Resto is only better if your opponent doesn't have cards in hand or if you have the boardstate to exploitResto.
TKS is totally playable on T4 and although I wouldn't want to run more than 4-5 4-drops, I'm currently playing TKS over Resto and it's great.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Singleton Mana Tithe is a fine idea, but it's another bad topdeck. I think it's fine to run one, but as soon as your opponent sees it, you should probably board it out, because he or she will be playing around it for the rest of the match anyway.
Renegade Rallier is okay, but it's highly dependent on the structure of the rest of your deck. I'm not actually sure if I like it in that list, because there are only seven lands that enable it. I'm sure it plays better because the pilot is blinking Blade Splicers, but you need to have an active Vial in order to enable that line.
I play Voice of Resurgence in my WG build. My metagame is filled with spot removal, so Voice was a great way to punish my opponents for running it. Most people don't run it because it doesn't actually do anything to affect the boardstate. It's a pseudo-Grand-Abolisher timing restriction, but as anyone who's played with Abolisher can tell you, your opponents are just going to play around it. Voice of Resurgence is pretty awful as a 2/2 bear, but if your opponents are running attrition or control decks, it can be a nice card to have.
Wilt-Leaf Liege does come in against GBx. Like Loxodon Smiter, it's a great way of punishing your opponent for running discard. Remember that if Smiter is the only legal target in your hand, your opponent must choose it. Liege is used when you're running cards like Voice and Smiter, because they get +2/+2 instead of +1/+1. This typically means you have to build your deck less like D&T, and more like Hatebears; you lose a lot of your control elements in favor of your raw power and clock.
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While I like D&T, there is no reason we should be Tier 1. The format is so fluid that one month of increased interest doesn't really say anything, other than maybe we're better positioned now than we were two months ago. That sentiment is especially poignant given we hadn't received many (if any) new tools in a while (before Amonkhet). I can't think of anything in Aether Revolt that became a mainstay, and the only tool we got in Kaladesh was Smuggler's Copter. Admittedly, I don't know what caused a spike in interest, but I have a hard time coming up with a reasonable explanation for why this deck should be considered Tier 1 using pre-Amonkhet data.
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The SFM/Batterskull package really punishes aggro, which is a large part of the format. But it does very little against control and it's only situationally useful against combo.
If the event that it were unbanned, I imagine that we immediately jam 4 copies with a Batterskull/Swords package until the metagame adjusts, at which point we have to become smarter about running it or not running it.
This simply isn't true. If anything, SFM is getting worse with every new set. The reasons are twofold:
1) The removal is becoming more efficient.
2) The equipment isn't powerful anymore.
The assertion that SFM has the same problem as Birthing Pod is ridiculous; every set is somewhat likely to have powerful creatures (the Birthing Pod problem), but not every set is likely to have powerful equipment (the SFM problem). In fact, SFM has been approximately the same power level since New Phyrexia, when Batterskull and Sword of War and Peace were released. Except the removal in new sets has gotten much more efficient, meaning that SFM is comparatively much weaker than it used to be.
SFM is a good card. I suspect that we would play it if it were unbanned, but it's not going to be the piece that pushes this deck to Tier 1, let alone Tier 0.5.
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I actually like Dusk, because it's a conditional Wrath that leaves us with a lot of our taxes. It also gets better with maindeck Selfless Spirit, which is pretty good to have anyway.
The problem with Dusk is that I'm not sure which matchups I would use it for. It's good against decks that put a lot of sizable creatures on the battlefield, and there just aren't many of those. I like Dusk against Merfolk and maybe Zoo, but Affinity, Elves, and Abzan combo dodge the effect just like we do. Maybe it's still worth 2-for-1'ing Jund or Abzan aggro, but it's not typically the blowout that we want it to be. I think Dusk actually gets a lot of its value from the Dawn side, because when BGx makes you discard it and then makes you sacrifice your creatures, you still get back a lot of your board state.
I'm definitely going to test Dusk to Dawn in my sideboard. I think it's typically competing against things in the EE slot (because that's currently the card in my board doing the most work against Merfolk and Zoo), but it does have potential upside in attrition-based matchups.
On another subject, I think with the addition of Harsh Mentor to the red suite, I'm finally going to move over to testing WR D&T. I'll try to have a mini-primer for it sometime this coming summer.
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I'm excited to try out Oketra, but I play very non-traditional D&T builds.
Nephalia Academy doesn't work on the draw, because it's that first Thoughtseize that does the most work.
Plus, you don't want to be running Academy in high multiples (because the effect isn't cumulative) and running it at all is a huge concession of a colorless land slot to your GBx matchups.
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But even in more conventional builds, Throne of the God-Pharaoh will occasionally you an opportunity to win a turn early; Your opponent won't necessarily get a chance to swing back for an alpha strike.
I'm calling it now that this card will exist as a reasonable 2-slot option for a long time to come.
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None of his lists are particularly strong. I'm probably one of his biggest critics in this thread, but I don't know why a person who can't build the deck properly is writing about it. It's the blind leading the blind, I guess.
Testing is good. We do a lot of testing here, and we discuss the innovations that come from tournament-successful lists. I applaud anyone for testing, including Ernenwein. But I'm just not impressed with what I've seen from his articles.
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His mono-white list is still mediocre, opting for five(?!) non-Vial one drops. He relies heavily on flicker packages, which is a good way to go, but his choice of two maindeck Finks is particularly interesting to me. I haven't tried Finks in a little while, but I have to believe that the metagame is so aggro-heavy that it's actually a good choice. It also puts in work against Fatal Push, which seems smart given some of the Grixis decks I've seen lately.
His description of splashes makes me believe he reads this thread. It's mostly just restating the things that we've been saying (and playing) for years, so good on him for finally catching up.
His assessment of the deck's weaknesses are accurate, and his discussion of SFM is consistent with the things that get said here.
I realize that this article really wasn't for us (because we already play the deck), but if it inspires someone else to pick up the deck, so much the better. Again, Ernenwein has picked up his game a little bit. It's rough around the edges, but improvement is improvement.
And finally, because it's obligatory at this point: we're not Hatebears. We never were Hatebears. We will never be Hatebears.
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Generally speaking, no one spends their removal spell hitting the 1/1 Blade Splicer. It's a 20 turn clock, maybe 15 because this is Modern. But the number of times I've saved a Blade Splicer with a Blade Splicer is actually zero, and if that number is higher for you, I'm blaming your opponents.
However, the combat math thing can be a big deal. That said, once you try to play Resto to change the combat math, that's where your opponent will remove Blade Splicer in response, effectively negating your value.
Clearly, we have different experiences with Restoration Angel. I like flash and flying, but I don't like waiting for the right opportunity to play it.
Not a problem, because I get to Thoughtseize my opponent for no mana and no life.
It can, yes. But if your opponent is leaving those creatures back to block, then you're already way ahead. And if your opponent is swinging with those creatures, then Restoration Angel isn't going to stop them either.
Flight and flash are good, but so is a Thoughtseize with legs.
Most of us are on 7-10 colorless sources anyway, plus Aether Vial. Like you suggest, I've had TKS stuck in my hand before. But it's not as big of a problem as you're suggesting.
The math doesn't change at all, because your density of colorless sources should remain the same. If you couldn't cast TKS before with your 8 colorless sources, changing some of them to Eldrazi Temples isn't going to help you.
TKS does get better when you cast it before T4, because it's more likely to remove a relevant card in your opponent's hand. But Eldrazi Temple isn't actually required to get value out of TKS.
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On the curve or with an active Vial, I'd rather have TKS than Restoration Angel. TKS's ability is extremely potent disruption, frequently stripping my opponents of mass removal or cheap targeted removal. Resto is only better if your opponent doesn't have cards in hand or if you have the boardstate to exploit Resto.
TKS is totally playable on T4 and although I wouldn't want to run more than 4-5 4-drops, I'm currently playing TKS over Resto and it's great.
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Lingering SoulsBitterblossomAssemble the Legion!WUDeath&TaxesWG
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