Hey everyone. I've been messing with this deck more and more and I'm starting to really enjoy playing it. I'm curious about the post-OGW versions. Is there a reason to buy Marsh Flats? Or is Caves of Koilos actually better here?
Fetches are pricy for a reason. They are deceptively good in a deck. The question I would be asking is would you be happy with Caves of Koilos as your only colored mana source on the board? Caves is a "tri-land" in this deck, but at a price. Those pings will add up. That being said I am playing 4x Marsh Flats and the reason I am doing so is I want to be able to grab the lands I want when I want and paying 1 life to get access to any colored source you need is very good and is better, in my mind, than paying 1 life over and over again. On top of that the deck thinning is very important as well. It raises your chances, even if small, of drawing cards that are useful rather than just top decking lands you don't need.
As other have mentioned it also allows to play around Blood Moon. My colored land base is as follows:
I would like to fit a Cavern of Souls in there as well, but I just don't have room. Maybe for Sea Gate depending on how well that works out. But I see that being a powerhouse lands. I have been very pleased by Vault of the Archangel. With the increased need for C in oath, this easily fills that role but has also just flat won me games.
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For sweepers I currently have all is dust in the main, but this may change. It is very dependent on how the meta shifts in the next month or so. If affinity and Tron end up taking a large share of the meta (I think they will) I will probably move it to the board. Similarly aggressive decks like elves, merfolk and zoo might be too fast to get to 5-7 mana as well.
I am currently using Languish, which I really like. It is semi one sided as Herder and Sower both survive it. However, with TKS coming into the fold, it may not be as good as it basically gains them a card. There are a few decks that late game sweepers are excellent against, namely Abzan Company and Kiki-Chord.
I am expecting Kiki-Chord to be a solid tier 1.5-2 deck (maybe tier 1) and sweepers are important there. In my mind Kiki-Chord is kind of like twin. But instead of combo or tempoing you out, it combos or values you out. It does a lot of GY recursion at instant so keeping up a relic is important. Case in point, a very common line of play you will see is EoT Chord for 3 to get Eternal Witness and bring chord back to their hands. Then if you try and remove the Witness they will chord Restoration Angel to protect the witness and recur the chord again, and if you don't remove the angel asap they will chord in Kiki and combo off. It isn't a fast play, but the value is just insane. At the same time, if you play a sweeper, and they have enough mana, they will chord in Reveillark and recur most of their board. If they recur a witness, they will pull the chord or reveillark back and begin the process again. This brings in instant speed GY hate again. None of their creatures are particularly large but they go wide and they can pull some really interesting tricks with Kiki.
I run Extraction main, and I normally save it for the first activation of Chord. Out of the board I bring in Memoricide. I used to target Chord first, but after talking to my friend who runs the list (where I got my practice from) he says the first target should probably be Kiki. Kiki enables most of the ridiculous values like Kiki + Voice. It also breaks the I win combo, which makes them have to grind against us, which is not favorable.
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I took out maps a while ago and haven't really missed them, currently running a 3/2/0 split. I main deck 2 extractions which has proven extremely useful, and is actually one of my favorite cards to see. I know there was talk a while back that it is a SB card at best for combo. However I find it is an incredibly powerful activator for this deck.
Yes it has to be play on a card that was already used, but it gives so much information. Remember after casting it you look through you opponents deck and hand, as well as getting hopefully 4 cards into exile. It either prepares you for a massive sower or turns on your herders and stranglers. The other great part is no one sees it coming game 1.
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I dropped Celestial Purge. I think it is still an important card vs burn as it creates fuel for processors; it is a 2cmc kill spell against a problem deck, and it is a valuable spell against storm for getting rid of pyromancer's ascension. I do agree that 2 is too much.
There are a few cards I am worried about showing up. Namely Stormchaser Mage. I can see a delver, yp, stormchaser deck forming and Purge will be important there.
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I have read the article from where that chart is from and it is assuming a 90% chance of casting your spells. I haven't done the math, but with pushing the deck more towards black, I think you lose out more on Thought-Knot Seer on turn 2, which IMO is a more important play than IoK/TS on turn 1. This current mana base has 11 turn 1 black sources, which has 90% of black available by turn 4, which is sub optimal, but I would gather closer to a 80-85% chance on turn 1, which I am ok with as hitting Sol lands to power out big baddies sooner rather than later might be better.
This whole archetype has the problem of mana fixing since about 25% of our mana base are dedicated to casting eldrazi spells. Perhaps if there were better fixing lands the base would be better.
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This is what I am thinking right now. Haven't tested it, but seems good. The board is very much in flux, but I think 3-4 stony will be correct after the twin ban. There will be a lot of affinity and RG tron.
I think your creature count is correct Cap. That is exactly what I was thinking of doing. I don't run map though. In its place I have been running 2x mainboard extractions. Also, with the up and coming prevalence of affinity, I think go for the throat is wrong. I would change that to a dismember.
Otherwise a damn sexy list.
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I am not sold on TKS as a 4x. I think it is a great turn 2 play, but a bad turn 7+ play. Late in the game if you opponent's hand is empty or has lands, you exile nothing, drop and medium/large body, that if it dies, draws your opponent a card. That kind of sucks.
I am also not crazy about dropping Sower below 3. This decks trump card is Ulamog. Being able to threaten ulamog is important and I find it is very hard to do many games without sower. I have not yet tested TKS or Smasher yet personally, so this is all theory craft, but this is what I expect my deck to look like.
4x Relic
3x Souls
4x Path to Exile
2x Dismember
1x All is Dust
I am not sure where I want Warping Wail in the deck, and how I want to modify my SB. Maybe -1 Sower and -1 Dismember for 2x Warping.
As far as Endbringer goes, I think it is too slow. If it had haste omg would it be an insane powerhouse. The sad part is a 5/5 for 6 that does nothing the turn it comes into play is just to weak for this deck.
All lists run 4x Path, but whether they run Dismember, Slaughter Pact or Go for the Throat all seems to vary and whether there are 1, 2 or 3 addition removal spells in the main.
What have you guys been doing? I am on 2x Dismember because it deal with the vast majority of threats and can be played off of colorless mana if needed.
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A comment on Crumble to Dust. People talk about how this is the answer to tron, but it really isn't. This a turn 4 card, when we are on the play, but even then Karn comes out on turn 3. If we are on the play, that is two turns for Karn and one for ulamog. I am just saying that against a bad tron hand it might help, but chances are it doesn't matter.
I have played against tron with a turn 3 blood moon and I just got overwhelmed because they just dropped threat after threat. As my BGx friend says, it isn't the first Karn or Wurmcoil that gets you, it is the second.
I am on BW because I think it handles Tron better actually. Stony Silence hurts tron a lot because it slows them down. If they can't cantrip you can handle the first threat. White also gives Path which handles the Wurmcoil engines and Ulamog. Breaking Tron's land is hard to do and I don't think should be the main game plan. I would go with disruption and slowing their draws. I may prove to be wrong, but I felt quite hopeless when I played tron as BR, but feel like 30/70 or 40/60 when on BW.
All is dust has saved me in many games and will not leave my board. I am heavily boarded against burn and scapeshift with life gain. The rest is fairly self explanatory.
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Flaying Tendrils appears to be a thing. I am running 2x Zealous Persecution in my board and the question is do I replace them? Persecution is amazing with souls tokens and is a decent sweeper, but the tendril's looks legit.
Im also really intrigued by tendrils, Persecution and Sorrow both have their own upsides but the combo of instant speed and exile is pretty tempting
It is a sorcery. If it was an instant it wouldn't be a question.
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Flaying Tendrils appears to be a thing. I am running 2x Zealous Persecution in my board and the question is do I replace them? Persecution is amazing with souls tokens and is a decent sweeper, but the tendril's looks legit.
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Fetches are pricy for a reason. They are deceptively good in a deck. The question I would be asking is would you be happy with Caves of Koilos as your only colored mana source on the board? Caves is a "tri-land" in this deck, but at a price. Those pings will add up. That being said I am playing 4x Marsh Flats and the reason I am doing so is I want to be able to grab the lands I want when I want and paying 1 life to get access to any colored source you need is very good and is better, in my mind, than paying 1 life over and over again. On top of that the deck thinning is very important as well. It raises your chances, even if small, of drawing cards that are useful rather than just top decking lands you don't need.
As other have mentioned it also allows to play around Blood Moon. My colored land base is as follows:
2x Godless Shrine
2x Caves of Koilos
2x Swamp
2x Plains
4x Eldrazi Temple
3x Eye of Ugin
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Sea Gate Wreckage
1x Vault of the Archangel
3x Ghost Quarter
I would like to fit a Cavern of Souls in there as well, but I just don't have room. Maybe for Sea Gate depending on how well that works out. But I see that being a powerhouse lands. I have been very pleased by Vault of the Archangel. With the increased need for C in oath, this easily fills that role but has also just flat won me games.
I am currently using Languish, which I really like. It is semi one sided as Herder and Sower both survive it. However, with TKS coming into the fold, it may not be as good as it basically gains them a card. There are a few decks that late game sweepers are excellent against, namely Abzan Company and Kiki-Chord.
I am expecting Kiki-Chord to be a solid tier 1.5-2 deck (maybe tier 1) and sweepers are important there. In my mind Kiki-Chord is kind of like twin. But instead of combo or tempoing you out, it combos or values you out. It does a lot of GY recursion at instant so keeping up a relic is important. Case in point, a very common line of play you will see is EoT Chord for 3 to get Eternal Witness and bring chord back to their hands. Then if you try and remove the Witness they will chord Restoration Angel to protect the witness and recur the chord again, and if you don't remove the angel asap they will chord in Kiki and combo off. It isn't a fast play, but the value is just insane. At the same time, if you play a sweeper, and they have enough mana, they will chord in Reveillark and recur most of their board. If they recur a witness, they will pull the chord or reveillark back and begin the process again. This brings in instant speed GY hate again. None of their creatures are particularly large but they go wide and they can pull some really interesting tricks with Kiki.
I run Extraction main, and I normally save it for the first activation of Chord. Out of the board I bring in Memoricide. I used to target Chord first, but after talking to my friend who runs the list (where I got my practice from) he says the first target should probably be Kiki. Kiki enables most of the ridiculous values like Kiki + Voice. It also breaks the I win combo, which makes them have to grind against us, which is not favorable.
Yes it has to be play on a card that was already used, but it gives so much information. Remember after casting it you look through you opponents deck and hand, as well as getting hopefully 4 cards into exile. It either prepares you for a massive sower or turns on your herders and stranglers. The other great part is no one sees it coming game 1.
There are a few cards I am worried about showing up. Namely Stormchaser Mage. I can see a delver, yp, stormchaser deck forming and Purge will be important there.
This whole archetype has the problem of mana fixing since about 25% of our mana base are dedicated to casting eldrazi spells. Perhaps if there were better fixing lands the base would be better.
2 Wasteland Strangler
3 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Reality Smasher
4 Blight Herder
3 Oblivion Sower
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Spells (20)
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Path to Exile
4 Relic of Progenitus
1 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
3 Lingering Souls
1 All Is Dust
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Godless Shrine
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Eye of Ugin
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Marsh Flats
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Celestial Purge
1 Spellskite
2 Disenchant
2 Rest for the Weary
3 Stony Silence
2 Languish
3 Memoricide
Otherwise a damn sexy list.
I am also not crazy about dropping Sower below 3. This decks trump card is Ulamog. Being able to threaten ulamog is important and I find it is very hard to do many games without sower. I have not yet tested TKS or Smasher yet personally, so this is all theory craft, but this is what I expect my deck to look like.
4x Herder
2x Strangler
3x TKS
2x Smasher
1x Ulamog
4x Sower
2x IoK
2x TS
1x Surgical Extraction
4x Relic
3x Souls
4x Path to Exile
2x Dismember
1x All is Dust
I am not sure where I want Warping Wail in the deck, and how I want to modify my SB. Maybe -1 Sower and -1 Dismember for 2x Warping.
As far as Endbringer goes, I think it is too slow. If it had haste omg would it be an insane powerhouse. The sad part is a 5/5 for 6 that does nothing the turn it comes into play is just to weak for this deck.
All lists run 4x Path, but whether they run Dismember, Slaughter Pact or Go for the Throat all seems to vary and whether there are 1, 2 or 3 addition removal spells in the main.
What have you guys been doing? I am on 2x Dismember because it deal with the vast majority of threats and can be played off of colorless mana if needed.
Check the stickied thread at the top of the forum. This thread is for BW.
I have played against tron with a turn 3 blood moon and I just got overwhelmed because they just dropped threat after threat. As my BGx friend says, it isn't the first Karn or Wurmcoil that gets you, it is the second.
I am on BW because I think it handles Tron better actually. Stony Silence hurts tron a lot because it slows them down. If they can't cantrip you can handle the first threat. White also gives Path which handles the Wurmcoil engines and Ulamog. Breaking Tron's land is hard to do and I don't think should be the main game plan. I would go with disruption and slowing their draws. I may prove to be wrong, but I felt quite hopeless when I played tron as BR, but feel like 30/70 or 40/60 when on BW.
That is my board.
All is dust has saved me in many games and will not leave my board. I am heavily boarded against burn and scapeshift with life gain. The rest is fairly self explanatory.
It is a sorcery. If it was an instant it wouldn't be a question.