The aggro matchups, who have no real way to deal with it. However, even in those matchups, it feels too slow.
I've also been testing Teachings and Gifts, so I'm not even sure that Cruel Control is the way to go for this format. I'm getting good results with Gifts, so I might not even end up playing 5CC. :/
I haven't seen it often enough to really notice much of an impact (as a 1-of should, I suppose). The times where I've resolved it turn 8 after a Cruel have been absolutely back-breaking. Usually, my opponent just can't come up with enough answers to get through it. Aside from those instances, though, it's been decent at best. I might relegate it to the sideboard.
I definitely feel like 3 Cliques are almost mandatory. I like the mixture of 2 Titan, 1 Batterskull. Gives me nice utility against most of the field, and while neither do anything against combo, I will keep in 1 Titan just as an "I win" button for that matchup.
Clique + Cruel might just end up being my main win condition.
Against RDW, Zoo, Jund, etc, it can make a huge difference. I generally put the game on lockdown before turn 7, though, with all my removal and sweepers. At that point, Cruel is enough to fully stabilize outside of any form of burn.
I still think BSA > Grave Titan, though. BSA comes down a turn earlier,
That it does, but turn 5 vs. turn 6 isn't a big deal in this meta.
gains more advantage each time it swings,
Um... no? You always create 10point life swings with Baneslayer. Grave Titan swings for 10, then 14, then 18... He's a much faster clock than Baneslayer is and puts a lot more pressure on your opponent.
and it dying to removal doesn't really matter since we can just counter that removal.
I'd rather play a turn 6 finisher that is removal resilient (leaves behind bodies) than play a turn 9 finisher with Cryptic backup.
It's also better against aggro.
This is debatable. Zoo runs Path. I'd rather run Grave Titan against a deck like that than Baneslayer, because I make chump blockers.
You're running a lot of sweepers. Are you certain that you're that vulnerable to aggro? 6 1-mana removal spells and a pair of board wipes should be enough for you.
Are you certain on Condescend? It always felt like a blank when I tested it. Early game, I never had the mana to effectively cast it, late game they had so much mana it was essentially a dead card. The scry effect is nice, but I wouldn't run it over Mana Leak or Rune Snag.
How is Pact of Negation working out for you? I hate running it in Control decks for the simple fact that I'm not a Combo deck, and if it's in my opening hand I might as well mulligan. Drawing into it before turn 5 is even worse, and I hate having to tap out on my turn just to prevent them from doing something. You are a control deck, not combo. If you can't just win with a free counterspell, I see no reason to run it.
I totally agree about Rune Snag, even if I start a game with 2, the second cast is just a little better than Mana Leak. But if I don't start a game with 2, or just with 1 (what happens all the time) Mana Leak is better. I liked the Pact slot too, I think Im going to cut the Rune Snags, -4 RuneSnags +2/3Mana Leaks +1/2Pact of Negation.
For the finishers, I think Batterskull is the best option.
The first Rune Snag is strictly worse than Mana Leak. The rest are strictly better. If you're going to run one of the two as a playset, you should definitely run Rune Snag.
Batterskull is fine, but incredibly mana intensive. Though we are saying that about a deck whose namesake spell costs 7.
First of all, you need more lands. 24 in a pure control deck is just wrong. 26 is the minimum. I would cut the Blood Tyrants for them.
You are not running anywhere near enough fetchlands for Ponder to be better than Preordain. Swap them.
You have no way of generating card draw outside of Cruel. Throw in some other form of it, maybe Think Twice, Night's Whisper, or splash White for Esper Charm.
Agony Warp is pretty bad as far as removal goes. I'd rather run Bolts.
You need some other countermagic outside of Mana Leak. Leak isn't good enough to get you there most of the time.
You know what's better than all of them? Batterskull. It doesn't die to creature removal, and sometimes not even artifact removal. Grave Titan is better than Wurmcoil or BSA because 'Coil and BSA get owned by Path. Batterskull does not suffer this problem, despite the fact that it's not as awesome of a clock. Keep in mind that it's relatively easy to nickel and dime your opponent to death with Cliques, Shriekmaws, Mulldrifters, Blightnings, Tar Pits, and whatnot, so you don't need many large finishers.
I might give the Batterskulls a try. My main issue with them is that they can't be Disentombed with Cruel, and are incredibly mana intensive (Turn 8? Ow).
Quote from Admiral_Arzar »
Also, regarding Clique vs. Specter: Yes, Clique is better in many situations. However, I would run both of them rather than choosing one over the other.
How do you have space for both? I'm running so many spells I only have room for 5 dudes.
I think Grave Titan's really good, but I still prefer BSA. The amount of advantage you gain each time you swing with it is so much better than two 2/2s that do nothing against Zoo (Firespout? GG).
What Zoo list runs Firespout?
EDIT: For those who are interested, the list I've been testing is below:
The list is pretty tuned to do most things at Instant speed. It packs enough removal to trounce Zoo and enough disruption to beat Combo decks. The Cloudpost match is difficult, but not unwinnable. Trickbind goes a long way in almost every matchup, and can help you turn their Titan into a 6-drop removal sponge. In particular, the sideboard options:
Fulminator Mage: He's a Cloudpost hate stick. Apply pressure, blow up Posts as necessary, etc. Particularly fun is blowing up lone Cloudpost if you see a Vesuva in their hand. The goal is to just slow-roll them. You CAN win, it is just incredibly difficult and requires you to disrupt their gameplan and beat their face in with Fulminators and Cliques.
Sudden Death: This is my hate card against Twin and Infect, but it is also sweet removal against Aggro-Control decks like Blue Zoo. Being able to dodge countermagic without trying is a great effect, especially with all the combo decks running something along the lines of 20 counterspells.
Ancient Grudge: Affinity removal, and whatever random jank artifact decks you come across.
Flashfreeze: This is an incredibly versatile counterspell right now. Most of the spells you want to be countering are Red or Green: Knight of the Reliquary, Splinter Twin, Primeval Titan, etc.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir: If you're looking to shore up the Control matchup, this is your go-to guy.
Bribery: Non-Green TwelvePost? Punish them.
Firespout: One last board wipe for the aggro decks, just to have more removal on hand.
Baneslayer eats removal and dies. You won't ever get a chance to swing with it unless it's turn 9 when you have Cryptic backup, and by then it's likely too late against Aggro (the main reason you run it).
Wurmcoil is much better. It doesn't fly, but is that necessary when you're gaining life and dodge all the destruction removal? However, I don't think he works in Modern simply because Path is the go-to removal spell, and he really dislikes that.
Inferno Titan is sweet against weenie aggro, but not so much against Zoo, where he oftentimes will just be a 2.5-for-1 (.5 being the potential Basic from Path).
Grave Titan is best, in my opinion. They remove the Titan himself in any way? Sweet, you still have a pair of Zombies to show for it to serve as beatsticks or chump blockers. They use a board wipe? Then you're likely playing the control mirror (which barely exists right now); you both break even on card advantage and you have a slight bit of inevitability in Ultimatum. There are times when Twin will Firespout the board, then Bolt the Titan, but these are plays you can't really get around.
Basically, Grave Titan is best because he is versatile and a massive threat. If you untap with Grave Titan, he will win the game by himself, likely on the next swing if you've been beating face with Cliques. I would also argue he's better in the aggro matchup, since he deters your opponent from swinging at all. If you just have Wurmcoil, you might still net lose life.
I would sooner run Vendilion Clique than Sedraxis Specter, for a number of reasons.
Arguably easier casting cost. This deck is generally a heavy-Blue control deck. I often find it much easier to pull of 1UU than UBR on turn 3.
Immediate effect. Clique gives you the peek and discard effect regardless of getting to attack or not. Specter requires a swing and is thus more inconsistent.
Flash. This is the big one. Flash makes Clique so much more flexible. First, you don't have to tap out to cast it, leaving you vulnerable. Against combo, just cast it at the end of their turn, or if they start doing something suspicious and you want to see what's up. Against aggro, you can flash it in to be a clutch blocker, trading with a guy or eating a removal spell and preventing damage at the same time, as opposed to Specter who, against Zoo, will likely eat a Bolt, then you get swung at anyways for the full effect.
Really, though, it shouldn't hit the field if you play smart.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
People, Preordain being gone is no big deal to control. Learn to plan ahead, or run Serum Visions or Sleight of Hand or something.
I'm really excited about taking my Fulminator Mages out of the side. Such a sweet feeling.
EDIT: Posting my new mainboard.
4 Reflecting Pool
4 Vivid Creek
3 Island
3 Vivid Marsh
2 Vivid Meadow
2 Sunken Ruins
2 Celestial Colonnade
2 Cascade Bluffs
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Mountain
1 Mystic Gate
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Grave Titan
Other Spells (29):
4 Cryptic Command
4 Esper Charm
4 Think Twice
4 Rune Snag
3 Path to Exile
3 Terminate
2 Firespout
2 Thoughtseize
2 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
The sideboard is still in the works. A couple cards I'm sure I'll want/am theorycrafting:
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
I've also been testing Teachings and Gifts, so I'm not even sure that Cruel Control is the way to go for this format. I'm getting good results with Gifts, so I might not even end up playing 5CC. :/
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
Clique + Cruel might just end up being my main win condition.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
That it does, but turn 5 vs. turn 6 isn't a big deal in this meta.
Um... no? You always create 10point life swings with Baneslayer. Grave Titan swings for 10, then 14, then 18... He's a much faster clock than Baneslayer is and puts a lot more pressure on your opponent.
I'd rather play a turn 6 finisher that is removal resilient (leaves behind bodies) than play a turn 9 finisher with Cryptic backup.
This is debatable. Zoo runs Path. I'd rather run Grave Titan against a deck like that than Baneslayer, because I make chump blockers.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
A coupe things:
The first Rune Snag is strictly worse than Mana Leak. The rest are strictly better. If you're going to run one of the two as a playset, you should definitely run Rune Snag.
Batterskull is fine, but incredibly mana intensive. Though we are saying that about a deck whose namesake spell costs 7.
Counterbalance is useless without SDT.
I've never seen a Zoo list run Punishing Fire, either.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
I might give the Batterskulls a try. My main issue with them is that they can't be Disentombed with Cruel, and are incredibly mana intensive (Turn 8? Ow).
How do you have space for both? I'm running so many spells I only have room for 5 dudes.
What Zoo list runs Firespout?
EDIT: For those who are interested, the list I've been testing is below:
4 Reflecting Pool
4 Vivid Creek
3 Island
3 Vivid Marsh
2 Vivid Meadow
2 Sunken Ruins
2 Cascade bluffs
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Mountain
1 Mystic Gate
4 Cryptic Command
4 Rune Snag
3 Trickbind
Removal (8):
2 Path to Exile
2 Repeal
2 Terminate
2 Damnation
Utility (10):
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Esper Charm
3 Thoughtseize
Winning (5):
1 Batterskull
2 Grave Titan
2 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Fulminator Mage
4 Sudden Death
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Flashfreeze
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Bribery
1 Firespout
The list is pretty tuned to do most things at Instant speed. It packs enough removal to trounce Zoo and enough disruption to beat Combo decks. The Cloudpost match is difficult, but not unwinnable. Trickbind goes a long way in almost every matchup, and can help you turn their Titan into a 6-drop removal sponge. In particular, the sideboard options:
Fulminator Mage: He's a Cloudpost hate stick. Apply pressure, blow up Posts as necessary, etc. Particularly fun is blowing up lone Cloudpost if you see a Vesuva in their hand. The goal is to just slow-roll them. You CAN win, it is just incredibly difficult and requires you to disrupt their gameplan and beat their face in with Fulminators and Cliques.
Sudden Death: This is my hate card against Twin and Infect, but it is also sweet removal against Aggro-Control decks like Blue Zoo. Being able to dodge countermagic without trying is a great effect, especially with all the combo decks running something along the lines of 20 counterspells.
Ancient Grudge: Affinity removal, and whatever random jank artifact decks you come across.
Flashfreeze: This is an incredibly versatile counterspell right now. Most of the spells you want to be countering are Red or Green: Knight of the Reliquary, Splinter Twin, Primeval Titan, etc.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir: If you're looking to shore up the Control matchup, this is your go-to guy.
Bribery: Non-Green TwelvePost? Punish them.
Firespout: One last board wipe for the aggro decks, just to have more removal on hand.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
Baneslayer eats removal and dies. You won't ever get a chance to swing with it unless it's turn 9 when you have Cryptic backup, and by then it's likely too late against Aggro (the main reason you run it).
Wurmcoil is much better. It doesn't fly, but is that necessary when you're gaining life and dodge all the destruction removal? However, I don't think he works in Modern simply because Path is the go-to removal spell, and he really dislikes that.
Inferno Titan is sweet against weenie aggro, but not so much against Zoo, where he oftentimes will just be a 2.5-for-1 (.5 being the potential Basic from Path).
Grave Titan is best, in my opinion. They remove the Titan himself in any way? Sweet, you still have a pair of Zombies to show for it to serve as beatsticks or chump blockers. They use a board wipe? Then you're likely playing the control mirror (which barely exists right now); you both break even on card advantage and you have a slight bit of inevitability in Ultimatum. There are times when Twin will Firespout the board, then Bolt the Titan, but these are plays you can't really get around.
Basically, Grave Titan is best because he is versatile and a massive threat. If you untap with Grave Titan, he will win the game by himself, likely on the next swing if you've been beating face with Cliques. I would also argue he's better in the aggro matchup, since he deters your opponent from swinging at all. If you just have Wurmcoil, you might still net lose life.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG