I think it's fantastic. he can easily be a 3 drop 5/5 trample haster. That can turn us into an aggressor in a heartbeat. Auto 2 for 1 is great. Also something to note. If they are top decking... they can't kill it with spot removal.
Oh man, I just realized. Eldrazi Displacer can also unflip Delvers and stop baby Jace from flipping. Also kills tokens like a Voice or Thragtusk token. Hnnn, it does so much, I love it.
The good:
-White eldrazi hype
-can come down as early as turn 2
-can protect your other guys from removal, take out the twin combo, stop problem creatures from attacking/blocking, and get repeat usage out of stranglers and scullers
The bad:
-dies to bolt/decay
-depending on when it comes down you may not be able to use its ability right away
-can't protect itself
Conclusion, i do like it, but im not sure where it fits into our deck, or what i'd take out for it. I want to test both but i think you either play this or endbringer as a kind of flex eldrazi 1 of in the md
I think it might be a decent SB card, I am on the downside of it simply because it doesn't do anything immediately like 90% of our deck does. I agree it has potential to be a value town card in certain matchups but essentially it's this or Spellskite in my list and I gotta lean towards spellskite right?
I can only imagine that mirror matches are going to be this odd land of who has the better draws.
I think it's going to come down to who can drop the first Herder or Sower (i.e. who can ramp into Ulamog the fastest). Though I am toying with the idea of some really corner case Sideboard tech, like Funeral Charm.
That's how it felt last night when I happened to run into mtgsalvation user Kevinsera on Cockatrice.
Seriously.. the mirror is really going to be a crapshoot. I don't think it's anything to be worried about just yet though. (ie nothing worth replacing JUST for the mirror)
I agree that every choice is a renunciation. I think that white has great responses to any threat but they are all very specific to combat something.
I like Slaughter Games against combos like Splinter Twin/Scapeshift because removing those cards will just break their legs and without taking a remand. I think that is very possible to splash 1 Blood Crypt or Sacred Foundry main deck to have it sideboard against those decks.
Against mirror match just try to remove from the game their Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger copies as soon as possible before they can play it. Even if they "assemble" their Eye of Ugin they will not have anything that we can't handle.
I love Kozilek's Return but I don't think It will see or at least will be played at full potential in any list people are playing right now since they are playing only cost 5-6 eldrazis (not counting Ulamog). I'm not saying this card is not good (it's very very good) but needs a proper deck build to use it's full potential.
Personally I'd name Oblivion Sower before Ulamog. If you cut them off of a Hard Ramp source like that, you can get to your Newlamog first and then just kill their lands and dreams. I think Kozliek's return isn't better then the black one we are getting for the exact reason you state.. we aren't going to get the second trigger enough I feel (granted it makes casting Newlamog that much more devastating but I don't think it's necessary.
Just to throw out there but, has leyline of sanctity/void been considered at all? I believe that the LotV interacts quite nicely with Strangler. And the LoS helps quite a bit against matchups that target you such as burn. I guess the issue is if it's not in your opener, any additional copies just clog up the hand.
I think the main problem with both Leylines is as you mention, when they aren't in opening hand they just aren't as good but also if we devote 4x SB slots to get the highest chance of seeing one in opening hand, you have to cut other valuable SB cards that are good in other matchups as well. Something to consider is Chalice of the Void against burn. Chalice on 1 can REALLY hinder them from doing what they need to. We'd still get a T1 discard play and can still Sculler/spellskite to protect it from Destructive Revelry (if they bring it in against us) but you blank a good percentage of their burn spells. Also good against Twin as they will be unable to draw cards via Serum Visions or Thought Scour, cast bolts to try and pressure you and in grixis versions, play their own discard spells (not that we care a ton).
Whenever we do something, we need to know why we're doing it. That being said, I want to have a quick discussion on BW vs BR so that we know why we're sticking with white and what red offers.
Going into red shows payoff in cheap removal. Bolt and Terminate, as well as the standard red sweepers improve matchups against creature-based and aggressive decks. Against Tron and Scapeshift, having access to Crumble and Slaughter Games provide one card answers to our most problematic matchups.
White gives us access to unconditional removal of Path to Exile that also sets up one card in the exile to be processed. White also gives us Lingering Souls for numerous and recurring fliers. In the sideboard we have a lot more artifact/enchantment hate and burn answers, but our options against Tron, Scapeshift, and the likes are more limited. (But we do still have the slightly worse Memoricide)
My reasonings for White over red is totally about card quality. Sure Slaughtergames is uncounterable but if you really want that same effect with Memoricide (which I just noticed got edited in.. so ya got that ;-]). Bolt is decent but Path is a much better removal spell for us because it follows our game plan. Letting our opponent ramp a mana isn't nearly as harmful as it could be if we were playing another deck. I am unsold on Crumble outside of Tron (remember in scapeshift they will need to get one of their "mountains" into play for you to hit it anyway, which means it could be far too late usually. Almost better to hope you hit Valakut off Sower, GQ it and then Surgical Extraction it. I also think the card is just a tad late against Tron. If they natural Tron.. you are still a dead man if you didn't GQ a piece before hand. If you did, Surgical Extraction takes care of it once and for all as well. If we really want to sideboard hate for Tron Lands.. could put in Contaminated Ground or Evil Presence into the SB. White definately helps us shore up many other matchups with great SB cards that the other colors just dont have. That is my $.02 anyway.
I can only imagine that mirror matches are going to be this odd land of who has the better draws.
I think it's going to come down to who can drop the first Herder or Sower (i.e. who can ramp into Ulamog the fastest). Though I am toying with the idea of some really corner case Sideboard tech, like Funeral Charm.
I definately think Sower will probably decide the mirror. Stealing lands and continuing your ramp is huge. Not to mention we all use pretty much the same lands so I can see the person who hits their Sower first gets to Ulamog because their ramp probably gets absurd. I don't think the deck will stick as a large enough part of the meta where we will see mirror matches everywhere after this initial fervor wears off. The appeal of a cheap deck (can be mono colored) that can beat Jund pretty consistently was very appealing to people. I am so glad I picked it up before it spiked. I'd have a hard time dropping $20 a pop for Eyes and $6 a pop for Temples. On the plus side.. spending like $5 on Eyes and $1.50 on Temples.. my deck is already worth far more than the store credit I spent on it.
Ok so it's been a few pages since I've really seen a pretty generic list for this. I'm at work and don't have my decklist in front of me but I'll post it tomorrow. I'm sure it's along the same lines as most of yalls. I am shy a couple Inquisitions but have been running Duress in that slot and for now it seems to be fine (oddly enough I am usually looking for removal and non-creature spells anyway and not having the CMC limit helps.) Occasionally I blank but it hasn't been overly common.
I didn't watch the whole series because of time constraints this morning, but skipped to his wrap up. He said he lost to Twin, Affinity and one other deck (maybe burn) and beat Merfolk and Grishoalbrand(not hard to do with all our graveyard hate). He was also playing a pretty wonky list (imo) and said he had some troubles with the deck.
Ari Lax posted a video series with an early (imo, untuned) BW list last week that was great to watch, he went 4-1 losing only to the mirror, and he won another mirror match. That one should be available for free before Sam Black's.
Interesting. I could see our Twin matchup going either way.. 2 bad matchups don't really help the cause but beating merfolk and the incidental gy slaughter probably helped him feel a bit better. I wonder which decklist he is using (as far as how old it is). Seems like each variant is getting further and further tuned and things become much more consistent.
I can only imagine that mirror matches are going to be this odd land of who has the better draws.
This deck is picking up steam. Starcity posted today Sam Black with a version of this deck, and Todd Anderson piloting it against Tom.
That is under premium right? Anyone know if the video will become free eventually? (I seem to recall after a few days they usually do). I'd seriously love to watch more folks playing this variant of the deck. Lots of youtube videos of mono black and UB (other than ashiok, I really dislike the UB list).
Although labeled as BW Eldrazi on the site, the deck Sam plays in the videos is actually Mono-Black. He, uh, does not have a good run with it.
Ah... I wonder where his struggles with it were at. I about stabbed myself in the earballs last night watching one youtuber (doing UB) and having him constantly misplay, miscount his mana (saying things like, well I don't have enough mana for x.. when he clearly did but wasn't subtracting Eye of Ugin from the cost) and sideboarding out his 1x Newlamogg and then get to lategame and trying to just repeatedly jam Sowers til he beat his opponent into submission (seriously.. if he just left the Newlamogg mainboard he tutors it up the first chance he gets and he would have won in 2 turns.. instead it felt like he gave his opponent 5-6 more draws. His reasoning was "newlamogg just dies to kill spells which won't make it good here" and his opponents weren't playing white for path at all. I think he forgets that it's indestructible.
Is the manabase still doable at all without Marsh Flats - would running 4 Cave of Koilos and 4 Godless Shrine work is that too much strain? I just don't want to shell out 160+ just to splash white.
I don't have Marsh flats but I have been using my playset of Verdant Catacombs. I have never had the need to tutor for a basic plains yet. Seems to work just fine as long as you have a B fetch.
If you're on the fetchland plan, why do we run two Godless Shrine? The most obvious answer is "in case we lose one". Is that a real risk for us? We could run another utility land in its place.
For me it's in case I have a Godless Shrine in hand (or already in play but used) but want to hold up the fetch for path (or bluff for path). I can take the shock if needed or just take the 1 and get it into play tapped. We don't really ever play any WW spells so we really don't need more than that. Just extra insurance I guess. I am sort of liking the 1x Bojuka Bog utility land but I am not running Expedition maps and so I think it's not worth it.
Just in case I needed any other incentive to lean towards BW Eldrazi:
Well that is certainly a thing. I am unsure exactly what we would use it on... we have a couple EBT's but nothing major. It does make for some interesting interaction with our opponents creatures though. Also with Eye of Ugin out it's like we get a White Nactal which is cool.
This deck is picking up steam. Starcity posted today Sam Black with a version of this deck, and Todd Anderson piloting it against Tom.
That is under premium right? Anyone know if the video will become free eventually? (I seem to recall after a few days they usually do). I'd seriously love to watch more folks playing this variant of the deck. Lots of youtube videos of mono black and UB (other than ashiok, I really dislike the UB list).
Hall of the Bandit Lord to give Ulamog haste. I've found that Ulamog is really weak to Path, and often its impact isn't strong enough for its cost and vulnerability. I've lost several games even after a resolved Ulamog.
So for me it's been just the opposite with big daddy Ulamog. The auto 2 for 1 is just so huge and I usually let everything else clear the path for him as he is a 2 turn clock. So far I've only seen 2 primary ways to kill him and that's been Liliana when he is alone and Path to Exile. Both of which usually have to be ripped from the top.
We've had a ton of mainboard discussion, but I'd like to talk about sideboards for a moment. I want to hear what you guys are playing and why. Here's my current board:
3 Timely Reinforcements - I keep increasing the number of this because I love it so much. I find myself putting it in against anything trying to play fairly. It creates very favorable trades or chump blockers, as well as providing a significant amount of life back. Sun Droplet formerly took this card's spot in my sideboard, but Reinforcements has proven to be much more versatile, being awesome in a variety of different matchups.
2 Languish - I play this over Damnation because it lets your creatures live and it can hit Etched Champion. I board this in against anything trying to play a bunch of creatures early.
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth - Amazing card for grindy matchups, makes a great target for Eye of Ugin that can keep your hand well stocked and provides a massive threat.
On the sideboard, I have always loved Timely reinforcements and agree 100% in it over Sun Droplet. My problem with the droplet is that if you draw it late against burn.. it can be too late. Timely is always good against them and decks like Jund where you can further your 2 for 1 in resources.
I am currently running 1x Damnation and 1x Languish because I have a Damnation. Languish totally fills the slot though and is effective enough at removing threats. There are times where the non-regen and destruction nature of Damnation is better, even if it clears your own board. (Also side note... both hit Etched Champion.. Protection only prevents target and damage, not destruction.)
I actually really like a classic Eldrazi effect like Kozilek primarily for the reshuffle effect he has. Currently we really don't use our yard at all but even though he is susceptible to removal spells, netting 4 cards on the cast and being able to retutor him up again if he gets destroyed seems great for closing out those grindy games. I don't know if we need another top end threat but I think he would be the one we'd use (new Kozilek is also an option once it is released. It can draw us back to a full 7 and has other utility as well (even if minor).
As for the combo decks you are having problems with, I still really like Void Winnower. It is a must answer or Bloom Titan, Scapeshift and Splinter Twin are really SOL. Unlike Mindcensor, it can also close out the game as well. (Be sure to up your GQ count against Bloom Titan and try and lead with it if you have it in opening hand. It really slows down their ramp. They also usually run 1 basic forest for the whole deck so from there you are in profit. Just GQ in response to the Amulet trigger and force them to bounce either their Forest or one of their other lands. Or strip mine them if you see their basic forest in hand.)
Thanks for the heads up on the scullers. I'll try to run a couple. I've gotta get a few more reps with the deck at a couple tournaments early this next week and I'll be taking it to a PPTQ here next weekend.
So I see a lot of Tidehollow and Brain Maggots and while I get the love for a bonus 2/2 body that strips a card, I think they are too vulnerable to removal and your opponent getting their card back before you can process it. Why not run Castigate. Guaranteed to exile the card every time for the same cost.
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I think it might be a decent SB card, I am on the downside of it simply because it doesn't do anything immediately like 90% of our deck does. I agree it has potential to be a value town card in certain matchups but essentially it's this or Spellskite in my list and I gotta lean towards spellskite right?
Seriously.. the mirror is really going to be a crapshoot. I don't think it's anything to be worried about just yet though. (ie nothing worth replacing JUST for the mirror)
Personally I'd name Oblivion Sower before Ulamog. If you cut them off of a Hard Ramp source like that, you can get to your Newlamog first and then just kill their lands and dreams. I think Kozliek's return isn't better then the black one we are getting for the exact reason you state.. we aren't going to get the second trigger enough I feel (granted it makes casting Newlamog that much more devastating but I don't think it's necessary.
Very astute. The only thing I can think of is that your primary sculler targets are instant speed spells probably (likely removal for your threats).
I think the main problem with both Leylines is as you mention, when they aren't in opening hand they just aren't as good but also if we devote 4x SB slots to get the highest chance of seeing one in opening hand, you have to cut other valuable SB cards that are good in other matchups as well. Something to consider is Chalice of the Void against burn. Chalice on 1 can REALLY hinder them from doing what they need to. We'd still get a T1 discard play and can still Sculler/spellskite to protect it from Destructive Revelry (if they bring it in against us) but you blank a good percentage of their burn spells. Also good against Twin as they will be unable to draw cards via Serum Visions or Thought Scour, cast bolts to try and pressure you and in grixis versions, play their own discard spells (not that we care a ton).
My reasonings for White over red is totally about card quality. Sure Slaughtergames is uncounterable but if you really want that same effect with Memoricide (which I just noticed got edited in.. so ya got that ;-]). Bolt is decent but Path is a much better removal spell for us because it follows our game plan. Letting our opponent ramp a mana isn't nearly as harmful as it could be if we were playing another deck. I am unsold on Crumble outside of Tron (remember in scapeshift they will need to get one of their "mountains" into play for you to hit it anyway, which means it could be far too late usually. Almost better to hope you hit Valakut off Sower, GQ it and then Surgical Extraction it. I also think the card is just a tad late against Tron. If they natural Tron.. you are still a dead man if you didn't GQ a piece before hand. If you did, Surgical Extraction takes care of it once and for all as well. If we really want to sideboard hate for Tron Lands.. could put in Contaminated Ground or Evil Presence into the SB. White definately helps us shore up many other matchups with great SB cards that the other colors just dont have. That is my $.02 anyway.
I definately think Sower will probably decide the mirror. Stealing lands and continuing your ramp is huge. Not to mention we all use pretty much the same lands so I can see the person who hits their Sower first gets to Ulamog because their ramp probably gets absurd. I don't think the deck will stick as a large enough part of the meta where we will see mirror matches everywhere after this initial fervor wears off. The appeal of a cheap deck (can be mono colored) that can beat Jund pretty consistently was very appealing to people. I am so glad I picked it up before it spiked. I'd have a hard time dropping $20 a pop for Eyes and $6 a pop for Temples. On the plus side.. spending like $5 on Eyes and $1.50 on Temples.. my deck is already worth far more than the store credit I spent on it.
Ok so it's been a few pages since I've really seen a pretty generic list for this. I'm at work and don't have my decklist in front of me but I'll post it tomorrow. I'm sure it's along the same lines as most of yalls. I am shy a couple Inquisitions but have been running Duress in that slot and for now it seems to be fine (oddly enough I am usually looking for removal and non-creature spells anyway and not having the CMC limit helps.) Occasionally I blank but it hasn't been overly common.
Interesting. I could see our Twin matchup going either way.. 2 bad matchups don't really help the cause but beating merfolk and the incidental gy slaughter probably helped him feel a bit better. I wonder which decklist he is using (as far as how old it is). Seems like each variant is getting further and further tuned and things become much more consistent.
I can only imagine that mirror matches are going to be this odd land of who has the better draws.
Ah... I wonder where his struggles with it were at. I about stabbed myself in the earballs last night watching one youtuber (doing UB) and having him constantly misplay, miscount his mana (saying things like, well I don't have enough mana for x.. when he clearly did but wasn't subtracting Eye of Ugin from the cost) and sideboarding out his 1x Newlamogg and then get to lategame and trying to just repeatedly jam Sowers til he beat his opponent into submission (seriously.. if he just left the Newlamogg mainboard he tutors it up the first chance he gets and he would have won in 2 turns.. instead it felt like he gave his opponent 5-6 more draws. His reasoning was "newlamogg just dies to kill spells which won't make it good here" and his opponents weren't playing white for path at all. I think he forgets that it's indestructible.
I don't have Marsh flats but I have been using my playset of Verdant Catacombs. I have never had the need to tutor for a basic plains yet. Seems to work just fine as long as you have a B fetch.
For me it's in case I have a Godless Shrine in hand (or already in play but used) but want to hold up the fetch for path (or bluff for path). I can take the shock if needed or just take the 1 and get it into play tapped. We don't really ever play any WW spells so we really don't need more than that. Just extra insurance I guess. I am sort of liking the 1x Bojuka Bog utility land but I am not running Expedition maps and so I think it's not worth it.
Well that is certainly a thing. I am unsure exactly what we would use it on... we have a couple EBT's but nothing major. It does make for some interesting interaction with our opponents creatures though. Also with Eye of Ugin out it's like we get a White Nactal which is cool.
That is under premium right? Anyone know if the video will become free eventually? (I seem to recall after a few days they usually do). I'd seriously love to watch more folks playing this variant of the deck. Lots of youtube videos of mono black and UB (other than ashiok, I really dislike the UB list).
So for me it's been just the opposite with big daddy Ulamog. The auto 2 for 1 is just so huge and I usually let everything else clear the path for him as he is a 2 turn clock. So far I've only seen 2 primary ways to kill him and that's been Liliana when he is alone and Path to Exile. Both of which usually have to be ripped from the top.
On the sideboard, I have always loved Timely reinforcements and agree 100% in it over Sun Droplet. My problem with the droplet is that if you draw it late against burn.. it can be too late. Timely is always good against them and decks like Jund where you can further your 2 for 1 in resources.
I am currently running 1x Damnation and 1x Languish because I have a Damnation. Languish totally fills the slot though and is effective enough at removing threats. There are times where the non-regen and destruction nature of Damnation is better, even if it clears your own board. (Also side note... both hit Etched Champion.. Protection only prevents target and damage, not destruction.)
I actually really like a classic Eldrazi effect like Kozilek primarily for the reshuffle effect he has. Currently we really don't use our yard at all but even though he is susceptible to removal spells, netting 4 cards on the cast and being able to retutor him up again if he gets destroyed seems great for closing out those grindy games. I don't know if we need another top end threat but I think he would be the one we'd use (new Kozilek is also an option once it is released. It can draw us back to a full 7 and has other utility as well (even if minor).
As for the combo decks you are having problems with, I still really like Void Winnower. It is a must answer or Bloom Titan, Scapeshift and Splinter Twin are really SOL. Unlike Mindcensor, it can also close out the game as well. (Be sure to up your GQ count against Bloom Titan and try and lead with it if you have it in opening hand. It really slows down their ramp. They also usually run 1 basic forest for the whole deck so from there you are in profit. Just GQ in response to the Amulet trigger and force them to bounce either their Forest or one of their other lands. Or strip mine them if you see their basic forest in hand.)