Yeah after playing The bridge version myself a bit, it's definitely not as consistent. I feel like there is potential here but the right list (or cards) haven't quite surfaced yet. I do enjoy some of the synergy, such as casting a free X=0, getting a token or two, and then casting a surge cost goblin with my only two Mana. I feel like this deck wants dredge cards instead of Hollow one though. But then it feels slower...
Overall I think it's really hard to break the core of the Vengevine version. I've tweaked my list to remove some of the 1s and 2s to just streamline the list and I'd say I've been better off. I really like Hooting Mandrills here and I couldn't myself going back to running less than 4. Here is my list:
I keep switching back and forth between Cathartic Reunion and Goblin Lore. Lately I've been lucky with Lore but I wonder if the inconsistency will come back to spite me. I'll be taking this deck to GP Vegas so I'm trying to work out the last few kinks.
Anyone have input on Reunion vs. Lore in a version like this?
I am pretty new to the modern Dredge(vine) archetype and thinking about playing the deck at my fnm.
Is there a big difference between the playstyle of dredge and dredgevine?
There are several problems with both of those. First is that you can only discard one card per turn for each. The card to power-gained ratio is better than Noose Constructor, but the fact is that noose can dump your whole hand if need be.
And the Furyblade wouldn't work at all with Flamewake Phoenix. She needs to be in the graveyard at the beginning of combat, but the Furyblade doesn't allow us to pitch a card until it's too late to trigger the Phoenix.
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Edit: there is a bit of play style difference between dredge and Hollow Vine. Mainly, Vengevine decks don't use dredge cards anymore. Vine hasn't the potential to be faster but dredge has more consistency
So, we finally got the second Gravecrawler we've been waiting for all this time: Squee, the Immortal
Is this good enough to warrant going back to a dredge variant with Prized Amalgams, etc.? I'm certainly intrigued, although fairly certain I'll stick to my current Hollow One list.
I think three Mana is pretty steep. But I do like the flavor
I have been testing some random cards (even Wild Cantor which was terrible by the way) that I thought might work in my Noose Constrictor build and I found Squee, Goblin Nabob to be quite a house as recurring it every turn improves your looting effects quite a lot and it's a safe card to discard and enable Hollow One without emptying your hand. Now I feel confident playing 4 Flamewake Phoenix as it's much easier to have a 4 power on board. This is my current build:
One thing I sometimes miss is a way to push through blockers, say you are facing Humans and they were able to put enough presence on board so that no player can attack as it would die next turn, in this kind of scenarios I think we are at disadvantage as every human they draw makes their presence bigger and we are not changing much the board even by playing a Hollow One or Vengevine, I've checked for any "acceptable" sideboard card with that effect and the best I could find is Gruul Charm which feels quite underwhelming. Has anyone else found a better card for this kind of effect? I might have to try Legion Loyalist again but when your opponent has a couple 7/7 or 8/8 Champion of the Parish it's not going to be enough
I think decks like Humans and GW value are the main reason we should apply a combo approach to our decks. Burst cards like the Emissary/Bushwhacker combo or Bloodghast if playing black. If humans has an opportunity to play their 4th or 5th creature, we've probably lost already. You could make a case for including Lightning Bolt maindeck, which some have forgone, but that doesn't help against GW value. Most of their creatures have 4 toughness.
So this is the decklist I'm currently running and I'm wondering if I'm being too cute with Hollow Ones and should replace them with stinkweed imp/ golgari thugs.
I took this to my fnm and they have a 3 round match.
Round 1--Tron: lost 0-2 to him having natural tron both games and I punted game 2 by abrupt decay his chromatic star and not his O-stone... was able to apply early pressure but between tron and stone he cleared my threats and landed a wurmcoil engine and revealed his hand to be Ulamog, Karn, and another engine. Game 2 was tron again and he ended up slamming an ulamog and ceiling my lands after relic my graveyard. And then backed up with another wurmcoil. He ended up decking me with ulamog triggers..
Round 2-- Troll worship: this was against my good friend and we played this match up a lot at school and when we hung out. I won game 1 with T1 looting pitching ghast and vengevine and T2 was another looting into neonate, hollow one, trigger vengevine and ghast and blowing him out. Games 2 and 3 I didn't draw my hate to remove his auras,RIP, and his worship and he killed me by playing threats that stonewalled me into not attacking while he gavony township at end step and killed me with his 2 birds of paradice.
Game 3 was a bye since someone else dropped out after round 2...
The deck felt pretty consistent and was able to always get guys onto the field.
I'd say drop the Gravecrawler & Lotleth Troll, replace with Street Wraith and Flamewake Phoenix and/or Gurmag Angler or maybe Hooting Mandrills. Abrupt decay is awkward in your maindeck but maybe 1 or 2 copies would be reasonable.
R/x Hollow decks may appear similar to the current dredge archetypes, but the deck plays pretty differently. Either drop your Hollows and Vines to add the dredge cards, or drop the dredge tools (like Lotleth Troll) and go for the hollow combo approach. Just my 2 cents...
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With the appearance of R/x Hollow One in the PT top 8..should we consider making a new primer for to encompass all Hollow One decks and maybe just merge this thread? TBH we can't really call this deck "Dredgevine" any more...since we don't dredge. It's a bit misleading
Chart a course seems like a terrible card for this deck. Don't we want to be both discarding cards and attacking with creatures every turn? And monastery swiftspear is outclassed by Flameblade adept. Thought Scour doesn't have much synergy here either... Just fueling delve?
Obviously the pilot is a skilled player, to take 11th at a large event like this. But some of the choices seem so wild to me. Stubborn Denial is probably the best blue card for this archetype
Just came back from FNM, 3-1. Lost that match because of severe mana screw. I think 17 lands might not be enough, will try 18. Otherwise I am very satisfied! I like atarka's command and ghor-clan as combat tricks. I also agree that BTE + bushwacker is great. It won me many games where I did not even see vengevines and hollow ones. Its that good.
I was also considering flamewake phoenix (not a lot of flying in modern right now, good evasion), but the main reason preventing me from using it is GY hate. People usually flip out when they see vengevine and bring plenty of hate for game 2. With phoenix our decks become a bit more reliant on the GY and that's not optimal after sideboarding. Right now I like that heavy GY hate only act as minor speedbump and does not turn off my deck entirely.
How do you like Bomat Courier? I was using 4x in my Gruul version, but I cut to 2x since it wasnt always working out. I do like that it can help get back steam if we durdle around too much.
I would definitely say 18 lands is the minimum. I've even considered 19 because it's so rare that I get flooded and I usually require 2 Mana to go off.
On your other tech: Rampager seems like a super sweet inclusion that I haven't seen used it any lists yet. Can't be countered, it dodges IOK & Abrupt decay, and pre-revolt FP. And he's a reasonably costed beater if you just need to jam a threat.
What about Atarka? Is it stealing the game for you often enough? I would think your list lacks an additional discard outlet. Between Cathartic, Commune, Gather, Goblin Lore, it seems like the few non-creature slots in this deck are so critical
For people using black, have you considered Bone Picker? I was trying it as a 2x in a Shadow Vine list that I've been working on. Most of the time it put in some real work
Some really unfair things can be done with Call to the Netherworld. It's my main reason for trying out black. But green obviously has strengths in BTE and Hooting Mandrills.
Some examples:
-turn 1 play Looting/adept
-turn 2 play Neonate, sac & discard Vengevine.
-then play Bone Picker, Recur Vine
This is a nasty turn 2 board
Another play:
-turn 1 cycle Wraith
-then cast Neonate, sac & discard Netherworld, Madness returns Wraith
-cycle Wraith again, then cast any Hollows you might have drawn.
This is all turn 1
Bone Picker is also useful after a combat step when they either chump blocked or otherwise nuked one of our threats. It's amazing body for just B. It's a bit of nonbo with Adept just because she prefers you to spend all resources discarding cards before the attack step, whereas Bone Picker wants just one Mana open after combat. I found myself siding it out many times, but it was useful the times I did draw it.
Careful study would bust modern wide open. We could probably drop green and just play izzet.
I would rather have a 1-drop creature as a discard outlet, something akin to Putrid Imp or Tireless Tribe. But I must admit, Noose Constrictor does an amazing job. I tested a few more games last night and I felt like he was one of my best value cards. Goblin Lore disappointed me a few times to the point that I will either reduce it's count it switch back to Reunion.
Unfortunately, we seem to play this deck a lot a combo deck. Similar to infect or storm. If they Seize a key piece from our hand on turn 1, it is back breaking.
I just recently started testing Goblin Lore. I would agree it's Superior to Reunion. I haven't tried burning inquiry though and I'm wondering if it would be stronger due to lower Mana cost. I'm often only short one Mana to make a strong play after Lore resolves. But I'm certainly worried about netting a positive yield for the opponent with Inquiry. With delirium, delve, dredge, etc all running rampant in modern, I would say it's likely we would help their cause rather than hurt it.
So a Temur Vengevine list 5-0'd a Modern league. It's super spicy and I like it. What do you guys think?
Makes me think whether going pure Izzet may be possible. However, I think I tap out too much to make counterspells really useful. Most of my losses are due to having a slow hand and having difficulties getting Hollow One and/or Vengevine online. Counterspells aren't going to fix that. Also 3 colors is a hassle and you will hurt yourself a lot getting the colors right. It looks like a nice list, but I will be surprized if this will be the next big thing.
Hey everyone!! Streaming my Modern Challenge on mtgo today. twitch.tv/optimal_hunter
Im using the vengeful one GR list
I tuned in twice but saw only Standard and Commander .
Seems like an interesting take on the deck. I'm glad people are starting re-incorporate blue into Vengevine strategies. I played a Grixis version before WOTC gave us the Hollow One (Love this new card!)..maybe I'll update it to something like this:
I think before I used Jace, Vryn's Prodigy instead of Hollow One, just as an additional way to discard the Vengevines if needed. Hollow just adds a nice layer of synergy here, personally I think it's yet to be as broken as it will end up. We just need one more super efficient cycler or discard engine.
The RG Vine runs like small zoo with vengevine acting as a combo finisher after a string of HH-BTE. It can combo kill quickly just like zoo, but mulls worse to say the least.
I would think that deck belongs to another thread. Call it DelveVine or something, since it is more delve than dredge..
Turbo Vine already has its own thread. It was brought up here only as a reference, no one is trying to derail this thread into RG Vine. Though admittedly I feel that zoo/vine or RG Turbo Vine has more potential than Dredgevine in the current meta game.
Hey there, is there a solid midrange list anywhere? I've seen discussion and I know that the explosive lists are superior but I'm looking for a BG or BUG build. If anyone could point me in the right direction that'd be awesome
We've been demoted to deck creation!
While there are no recent placings of Midrange or BG Vengevine (or any vengevine deck for that matter) I'm still brewing/tweaking my list. I'll drop you a PM when I make a thread in the DC sub forum.
Overall I think it's really hard to break the core of the Vengevine version. I've tweaked my list to remove some of the 1s and 2s to just streamline the list and I'd say I've been better off. I really like Hooting Mandrills here and I couldn't myself going back to running less than 4. Here is my list:
4 Flameblade Adept
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Reckless Bushwhacker
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Street Wraith
4 Hollow One
4 Vengevine
4 Hooting Mandrills
2 Flamewake Phoenix
4 Faithless Looting
4 Goblin Lore
Lands (18):
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Stomping Ground
3 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Blood Moon
3 Ancient grudge
2 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Lightning Axe
1 Heroic intervention
I keep switching back and forth between Cathartic Reunion and Goblin Lore. Lately I've been lucky with Lore but I wonder if the inconsistency will come back to spite me. I'll be taking this deck to GP Vegas so I'm trying to work out the last few kinks.
Anyone have input on Reunion vs. Lore in a version like this?
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Hangarback Walker, Endless One, Bridge From Below....
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There are several problems with both of those. First is that you can only discard one card per turn for each. The card to power-gained ratio is better than Noose Constructor, but the fact is that noose can dump your whole hand if need be.
And the Furyblade wouldn't work at all with Flamewake Phoenix. She needs to be in the graveyard at the beginning of combat, but the Furyblade doesn't allow us to pitch a card until it's too late to trigger the Phoenix.
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Edit: there is a bit of play style difference between dredge and Hollow Vine. Mainly, Vengevine decks don't use dredge cards anymore. Vine hasn't the potential to be faster but dredge has more consistency
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I think three Mana is pretty steep. But I do like the flavor
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I think decks like Humans and GW value are the main reason we should apply a combo approach to our decks. Burst cards like the Emissary/Bushwhacker combo or Bloodghast if playing black. If humans has an opportunity to play their 4th or 5th creature, we've probably lost already. You could make a case for including Lightning Bolt maindeck, which some have forgone, but that doesn't help against GW value. Most of their creatures have 4 toughness.
I'd say drop the Gravecrawler & Lotleth Troll, replace with Street Wraith and Flamewake Phoenix and/or Gurmag Angler or maybe Hooting Mandrills. Abrupt decay is awkward in your maindeck but maybe 1 or 2 copies would be reasonable.
R/x Hollow decks may appear similar to the current dredge archetypes, but the deck plays pretty differently. Either drop your Hollows and Vines to add the dredge cards, or drop the dredge tools (like Lotleth Troll) and go for the hollow combo approach. Just my 2 cents...
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With the appearance of R/x Hollow One in the PT top 8..should we consider making a new primer for to encompass all Hollow One decks and maybe just merge this thread? TBH we can't really call this deck "Dredgevine" any more...since we don't dredge. It's a bit misleading
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Obviously the pilot is a skilled player, to take 11th at a large event like this. But some of the choices seem so wild to me. Stubborn Denial is probably the best blue card for this archetype
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How do you like Bomat Courier? I was using 4x in my Gruul version, but I cut to 2x since it wasnt always working out. I do like that it can help get back steam if we durdle around too much.
I would definitely say 18 lands is the minimum. I've even considered 19 because it's so rare that I get flooded and I usually require 2 Mana to go off.
On your other tech: Rampager seems like a super sweet inclusion that I haven't seen used it any lists yet. Can't be countered, it dodges IOK & Abrupt decay, and pre-revolt FP. And he's a reasonably costed beater if you just need to jam a threat.
What about Atarka? Is it stealing the game for you often enough? I would think your list lacks an additional discard outlet. Between Cathartic, Commune, Gather, Goblin Lore, it seems like the few non-creature slots in this deck are so critical
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4 Death's shadow
4 Flameblade adept
4 Insolent neonate
4 Hollow one
4 Street Wraith
4 Vengevine
4 Gurmag angler
2 Bone Picker
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cathartic Reunion
4 Call to the Netherworld
Lands:
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Verdant catacombs
3 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
Some really unfair things can be done with Call to the Netherworld. It's my main reason for trying out black. But green obviously has strengths in BTE and Hooting Mandrills.
Some examples:
-turn 1 play Looting/adept
-turn 2 play Neonate, sac & discard Vengevine.
-then play Bone Picker, Recur Vine
This is a nasty turn 2 board
Another play:
-turn 1 cycle Wraith
-then cast Neonate, sac & discard Netherworld, Madness returns Wraith
-cycle Wraith again, then cast any Hollows you might have drawn.
This is all turn 1
Bone Picker is also useful after a combat step when they either chump blocked or otherwise nuked one of our threats. It's amazing body for just B. It's a bit of nonbo with Adept just because she prefers you to spend all resources discarding cards before the attack step, whereas Bone Picker wants just one Mana open after combat. I found myself siding it out many times, but it was useful the times I did draw it.
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I would rather have a 1-drop creature as a discard outlet, something akin to Putrid Imp or Tireless Tribe. But I must admit, Noose Constrictor does an amazing job. I tested a few more games last night and I felt like he was one of my best value cards. Goblin Lore disappointed me a few times to the point that I will either reduce it's count it switch back to Reunion.
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I just recently started testing Goblin Lore. I would agree it's Superior to Reunion. I haven't tried burning inquiry though and I'm wondering if it would be stronger due to lower Mana cost. I'm often only short one Mana to make a strong play after Lore resolves. But I'm certainly worried about netting a positive yield for the opponent with Inquiry. With delirium, delve, dredge, etc all running rampant in modern, I would say it's likely we would help their cause rather than hurt it.
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I haven't seen anyone weigh in on this concert. Maybe Manfred since you're running the Shadow version?
I'm trying to find a deck to take to GP Vegas but I wanna start testing now. This Goryo's technique seems weird but synergistic
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example
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Seems like an interesting take on the deck. I'm glad people are starting re-incorporate blue into Vengevine strategies. I played a Grixis version before WOTC gave us the Hollow One (Love this new card!)..maybe I'll update it to something like this:
4 Gravecrawler
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
4 Vengevine
4 Gurmag Angler
4 Hollow One
4 Faithless Looting
4 Izzet Charm
4 Thoughtseize
2 Stubborn Denial
Lands (18):
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
I think before I used Jace, Vryn's Prodigy instead of Hollow One, just as an additional way to discard the Vengevines if needed. Hollow just adds a nice layer of synergy here, personally I think it's yet to be as broken as it will end up. We just need one more super efficient cycler or discard engine.
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Turbo Vine already has its own thread. It was brought up here only as a reference, no one is trying to derail this thread into RG Vine. Though admittedly I feel that zoo/vine or RG Turbo Vine has more potential than Dredgevine in the current meta game.
We've been demoted to deck creation!
While there are no recent placings of Midrange or BG Vengevine (or any vengevine deck for that matter) I'm still brewing/tweaking my list. I'll drop you a PM when I make a thread in the DC sub forum.
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