I'd accept that it's a midrange approach rather than a combo approach.
Satyr and Greenbelt do not recurr from the graveyard and Amalgam is very specific. I don't feel I have enough enablers to make use of it in my deck. AnD as a midrange approach I would prefer that all my creatures are Hardcastable if necessary.
Satyr Wayfinder is one card I would definitely like to include in my list. I would replace Commune if not for the fact that commune can find answers in Sinister. But only netting me a land in hand doesn't help as much if I'm not running Bloodghast. And then if I run Bloodghast then I not as well include Amalgam. Then if I include Amalgam I might as well switch to red dredge and be tier 1. But this is not the forum for that now is it?
Is there a reason to avoid Grim Flayer in the straight BG Dredgevine Decks?
It does everything this deck wants. I'm brewing with Varolz and Death's Shadow after testing this straight RG Vengevine a couple of times: RG Super Vengevine
It's a lot of fun, but i prefer Lotleth Troll and Varolz, the Scar-Striped so therefore brewing with it.
I also assume Soulflayer as a serious option because Troll and Birds of Paradise do enable a serious threat as soon as Turn 3
(does Vengevine give him haste?).
I really love the RG Turbo Vine deck. I've been playing it online with great success. It has more explosive starts than BGx Vengevine could hope for.
I feel that Dredgevine's power comes from its Delve creatures (at least in my experience) but Turbo Vine is more about flooding with bears.
I would be careful with Varolz. That card has been discussed a lot in this thread and I believe most people dropped it out of their lists because of how slow it is. Combined with death's shadow it can be powerful though. Just fragile
Just to pay the Devils advocate, what makes my deck like Jund? The t1 discard effects? Because almost all black decks in modern run them. Since I'm not an all-in combo approach, it helps to peek at their hand in the early turns to see if it's safe to do my business.
That being said, I was actually testing and tweaking this list last night and tried a slightly more all-in approach, below.
-3 Thoughtseize
-3 Inquisition of Kozilek
-2 Abrupt Decay
+4 Grisly Salvage
+3 Hooting Mandrills
+1 Land
It seems like a lot of delve creatures, but the list just never ran out of steam. As much removal as they could throw at me, I followed up with more fatties.
The way I build a deck like this is to think in terms of redundancy. Threats and enablers.
What I'm lacking most is another solid discard outlet, not recursion. That's why I don't play amalgam. I feel like he belongs alongside Ghast and Narcomoeba. My list just doesn't take the combo approach in that manner. If you read my initial post about the list, I mention that I'm aware my explosive starts are disabled by dropping red. If I was to pilot this archetype at a major event, I would definitely include red. But this deck has a surprising resilience in the longer games that shouldn't be judged by speculating and holding to pre-conceived notions about an archetype that hasn't really been competitive for a while now. We're more at liberty to think outside the box. Try it out, even with the duress effects.
Gurmag Angler has synergy with Gravecrawler, so I would probably cut Tasigur before any copies of the Angler.
Grisly Salvage is certainly better than Commune if I cut the Concoctions. But if I keep them then I really like milling into an answer with Commune as opposed to only creatures/lands.
Sinister Concoction is definitely slow, but its a catch-all removal. It's not restrictive like Dismember or Fatal Push, and it doesn't eat my graveyard like Murderous Cut. As you mentioned, the graveyard is a valuable resource in this type of deck and if I'm already delving cards for creatures to recur the Vengevines, then I wanna keep delve-resources for just that. Cards like Stinkweed and Vengevine are no good in-hand, so I like to have at least 8x discard outlets in the deck. Lotleth Troll being the best obviously, but Concoction has a surprising amount of synergy in the deck. It's a 2-mana catch-all removal, for which the mana can be paid on separate turns. The life loss is minimal (less than dismember) and milling 1 card + discarding 1 card is more of a perk for me than a drawback. It's exactly what I want to be doing. I would say the card would be even better if it milled more than just 1 card.
As I stated in my earlier post, there still really is no reason to avoid red. This deck is just more of a fun idea and not something I'm pursuing as competitive until we get at least one more tool. I still love piloting it online though since there are a lot of threats that are immune to Lightning Bolt and Fatal Push.
I've been trying to make straight BG Vine work for a while. And we do have better tools now than when I first started forcing the archetype (back when DRS was modern legal) but I still don't know how much potential there is. Here's my current list
The problem is without red, the explosive starts are taken away. Faithless Looting is easily one of the best cards ever printed. Even if Budget is a concern, a playset of Copperline Gorge and a pair of Blood Crypts aren't going to break the bank and it would be well worth it.
That being said, I love my rock vine list. It's been a pet deck of mine forever. I'm waiting for it be viable or at least well-positioned in a meta so I can take a tournament by surprise.
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. And for the feedback. My version probably doesn't have the grind factor that Dredge Vine has, you're probably right. Even though my starts have been pretty explosive in preliminary testing.
The fact that Heir only let's you discard at most one card is the drawback. If it had 3 toughness or some other perk then maybe. Ideally it just wouldn't have the only activate once clause and we could use her to dump our hand on turn 2.
Satyr and Greenbelt do not recurr from the graveyard and Amalgam is very specific. I don't feel I have enough enablers to make use of it in my deck. AnD as a midrange approach I would prefer that all my creatures are Hardcastable if necessary.
Satyr Wayfinder is one card I would definitely like to include in my list. I would replace Commune if not for the fact that commune can find answers in Sinister. But only netting me a land in hand doesn't help as much if I'm not running Bloodghast. And then if I run Bloodghast then I not as well include Amalgam. Then if I include Amalgam I might as well switch to red dredge and be tier 1. But this is not the forum for that now is it?
I really love the RG Turbo Vine deck. I've been playing it online with great success. It has more explosive starts than BGx Vengevine could hope for.
I feel that Dredgevine's power comes from its Delve creatures (at least in my experience) but Turbo Vine is more about flooding with bears.
I would be careful with Varolz. That card has been discussed a lot in this thread and I believe most people dropped it out of their lists because of how slow it is. Combined with death's shadow it can be powerful though. Just fragile
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That being said, I was actually testing and tweaking this list last night and tried a slightly more all-in approach, below.
-3 Thoughtseize
-3 Inquisition of Kozilek
-2 Abrupt Decay
+4 Grisly Salvage
+3 Hooting Mandrills
+1 Land
It seems like a lot of delve creatures, but the list just never ran out of steam. As much removal as they could throw at me, I followed up with more fatties.
The way I build a deck like this is to think in terms of redundancy. Threats and enablers.
14 cards that want to be discarded (crawler, pharaoh, vine, imp)
8 discard enablers (Concoction, Troll)
10 Delve threats (angler, monkey, Tasigur)
12 Delve enablers (salvage, commune, imp)
12 recurring threats (crawler, vine, pharaoh)
What I'm lacking most is another solid discard outlet, not recursion. That's why I don't play amalgam. I feel like he belongs alongside Ghast and Narcomoeba. My list just doesn't take the combo approach in that manner. If you read my initial post about the list, I mention that I'm aware my explosive starts are disabled by dropping red. If I was to pilot this archetype at a major event, I would definitely include red. But this deck has a surprising resilience in the longer games that shouldn't be judged by speculating and holding to pre-conceived notions about an archetype that hasn't really been competitive for a while now. We're more at liberty to think outside the box. Try it out, even with the duress effects.
Draft My Cube!
Grisly Salvage is certainly better than Commune if I cut the Concoctions. But if I keep them then I really like milling into an answer with Commune as opposed to only creatures/lands.
Sinister Concoction is definitely slow, but its a catch-all removal. It's not restrictive like Dismember or Fatal Push, and it doesn't eat my graveyard like Murderous Cut. As you mentioned, the graveyard is a valuable resource in this type of deck and if I'm already delving cards for creatures to recur the Vengevines, then I wanna keep delve-resources for just that. Cards like Stinkweed and Vengevine are no good in-hand, so I like to have at least 8x discard outlets in the deck. Lotleth Troll being the best obviously, but Concoction has a surprising amount of synergy in the deck. It's a 2-mana catch-all removal, for which the mana can be paid on separate turns. The life loss is minimal (less than dismember) and milling 1 card + discarding 1 card is more of a perk for me than a drawback. It's exactly what I want to be doing. I would say the card would be even better if it milled more than just 1 card.
As I stated in my earlier post, there still really is no reason to avoid red. This deck is just more of a fun idea and not something I'm pursuing as competitive until we get at least one more tool. I still love piloting it online though since there are a lot of threats that are immune to Lightning Bolt and Fatal Push.
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4 Gravecrawler
4 Lotleth troll
4 Vengevine
4 Gurmag Angler
3 Tasigur, the Golden fang
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Vengeful Pharoah
Spells (16)
4 Commune with the Gods
4 Sinister Concoction
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Blooming Marsh
4 Verdant catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
3 Overgrown tomb
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Bitterblossom
2 Grapple with the Past
2 Gnaw to the Bone
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Liliana, the last hope
2 Duress
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Vengeful Pharoah
The problem is without red, the explosive starts are taken away. Faithless Looting is easily one of the best cards ever printed. Even if Budget is a concern, a playset of Copperline Gorge and a pair of Blood Crypts aren't going to break the bank and it would be well worth it.
That being said, I love my rock vine list. It's been a pet deck of mine forever. I'm waiting for it be viable or at least well-positioned in a meta so I can take a tournament by surprise.
Draft My Cube!
Draft My Cube!
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Narcomoeba
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Bloodghast
4 Greater Gargadon
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
Spells (15):
4 Bridge from Below
4 Faithless looting
4 Burning Inquiry
1 Lightning Axe
1 Rally the Peasants
1 Conflagrate
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Wooded foothills
3 Stomping Ground
6 Mountain
3 Hooting Mandrils
3 Ancient grudge
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Life from the Loam
2 Vengeful Pharaoh
2 Gnaw to the Bone
1 Ray of Revelation
Sideboard would need some serious work. And I'm really iffy on the Burning Inquiry. But it seems like it could generate some great value here.
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Draft My Cube!