Alright so after being Convinced by Mr. Rotten I decided to jam some Serum Visions in my deck and play some modern, because it is quickly becoming my favorite format...
Here is my current Draw-Go List...It has been awesome against Collected Company all day and has around a 45/55 burn match...which I think could be improved, but the main issue n that match is whether or not the resolve Eidolon of the Great Revel. If I can counter this I have a much easier time against them...
I'm debating wether it should be Mulldrifter/Keranos, or Angler in the Main deck.
Im also debating if the Logic Knot should be a dispel, mana leak, or spell snare or remain a Logic Knot.Other than that I think I really like the list the way it is and I have had good test results across the board in matches so far...
i am already planning on taking out the academy ruins, ee, and crypt. 2 monastary seige and k command are going in their place. i also have one fulminator mage to go with the command. i see thats picked up a bit of popularity lately. now the problem is getting k command into the main.
edit: 28 by my count, 26 if you don't count teachings itself.
Well this is definitely a well diversified list. I never went anywhere near this far down the Mystical Teachings plan though I do like the amount of Diversity you are able to find with your teachings package. I think Kolaghan's Command is going to have to occupy one of your electrolyze spots in the deck to not really make a big difference on what you already have going. Lop I think the deck could use a number of snapcaster mages for consistency sake but if you don't have them then by all means I understand that. If I was planning on paying it I also like being able to search out Vendilion Clique but that's personal preference. I don't actually think fulminator mage is going to make the main board of this deck because you are always going to have something better to do with your mana. I am not sure where you put him in at over there either. Wish I could be of more help but Overall I like the deck.
so has everybody moved off of the teachings side of creul control? the list that doyoulikemyultimatum posted could play one, at least as a test slot.
on a related note, i run a teachings version. i have to find space for k command but its definately going in somewhere.
deck does very well, the only real match i have trouble with is burn, but i almost beat him till he topdecked a 4 point burn. he had only one left in the deck, any other spell would have let me live. came across a puresteel paladin storm deck that tried winning with a living lore. now that deck looks fun but its entirely to easy to stop for creul control.
I think most of us have washed that idea off to the side. I used to run it in my main, but after dropping my instant speed wraths from the main and my Teferi from the board I got rid of it too. How many Teachings and How many Targets for teachings do you run out of curiosity?
I take you seriously MrRotten, you are passionate about Cruel Control. That means you are a fine upstanding gentleman (well maybe gentleman is not the correct term for us Cruel players)
I've always been against using life gaining artifacts as a way to beat burn, but thought it was necessary. Batterskull is not really for the burn matchup, it is for midrange matchups. Does batterskull happen to be good against burn? You bet, but he is not in the sideboard for that purpose.
On MODO burn is so prevalent that the life gaining artifacts are actually ok, but they do have drawbacks. One is they are so narrow and pretty useless against other match-ups. The biggest drawback to using things like Dragon's Claw is that Snapcaster Mage can't flash it back. Snaps and counters against burn is a lot better to me than using Spellskite or Dragon's Claw.
The best way to attack tron is hard counters and disrupting their mana.
Chapin's list is not very tuned at all, which he admitted. Running 21 lands, 4 Cryptics and no sweepers is not very smart in a meta with Collected Company. Who the heck runs Slay?
Of all the things you could say, you say that Chapin's list is untuned? I feel like this is very wrong considering he got 9th at a 2700 person tournament. The only thing he was really missing in his side was sweepers and the deck is as Grixis as they come. Granted we are on completely different plans as far as what our decks are designed to do as he wants to Turbo out Delve guys and draw more spells than his opponent over the course of a match which he is able to do by running 8 dedicated cantrips not counting things like the singleton shadow of doubt, remand or electrolyze. We are a control deck and don't pack that much draw. This also lets him skimp on lands because his curve topper is Crytic Command because you never pay more than 3 for the delve guys in his list.
On the Topic of Slay...I agree that it seems a little random, but realistically it is for specific matches and probably has a lot more uses than you would think in a heavy collected company/Jund meta...not to mention Various Wild Nactal decks.
I have given realistic thought of abandoning Cruel altogether and just playing his list because it functions much better against the meta than what we are doing, but let's face the facts...Cruel Ultimatum makes your opponent not want to play magic anymore after it is cast on him and that's way more fun to me.
I notice you have a Draw-Go style of Cruel now, have you done any testing with it? Curious as your thoughts.. .and I'm glad I corrupted someone else to trying Silumgar's Command haha
It is basically the version of Cruel Control I played before I added Liliana of the veil got added to my deck...I then added Tasigur in Place of one of the mana leaks and one Dreadbore. I also replaced the Remand with a Logic Knot to help make Tasigur a little better at what we are returning to our hand. I think it would be more a more accepted list than my other one and when I get a chance to get home to get my other cards I will test it.
1)I promise to myself that I dont change the list until sunday ( i will play another pPTQ ).
2)I putted out a Ghost Quarter, I tryed around 300 starting hands. and a couple of this let me to do so much mulligans more :(.
3)I like all your lists, but I couldnt be confidant without 1xDamnation 1xAnger of the Gods and 1xEngineered Explosives ( I think this card is totally into the meta.) , while around totally of us playing with 0/1 Mass removal maindeck... so this could be only my problem.
4)Now explained massRemovals , there are imho only 5 slots on we can discuss : 4° Mana Leak , Izzet Charm , Logic Knot, Shadow of Doubt and 1 fckgLOLdrawSlot.
On first and second , there are only because I think that snare isnt so efficient , too many time was a deadCard in my hand in my playtest, I wouldnt return playing it for now.
How I wrote somedays ago I saw that my deck perfoming very well when I could counter 2/3 threats in first 5 Turns, So I would to give a chance to Knot. Cuz imho with 8 fetch 3 iok 4 bolt, has good chance to counter turn 2 too(like a mana leak) but it will be much interesting late game.[For sure chaining Cryptic as a good thing and it can travel us into lateGame/winGame , but 4x are too heavy imho]
Nothing to say on Shadow of Doubt, cantrip that working so well against CoCo,Tron and bloom , archetypes that are really explosive since a month.
5)For sure I made my early game better, now I have 8 counterspells (9 with izzet) and 3 discards. I think our late is alredy great. So want talking about mid game, unfortunatly I have only 2 slots for midBombs: Zeus and BSkull. So I need to know if a planeswalker can help me , because usually them help mid/late game.And no one talked about this Jace, the Living Guildpact , prolly I will testing it soon.
6)Last slot (and also Shadow of Doubt slot) must be reserve for an Advantage Card. But those cards dont exist in this format. Atm I have a Steam Augury / Second Sight but first one do only 2x1 much times (only advantage is that cards like snapC and Kolaghan can work around it) . And the second do only quality, sometimes will be good also manipulate target library. but fetches are everywhre :(.In end are both cards of *****.
I m really sad because with 2/3 slots for a GOOD AdvantageCard the deck will be really competetive, without it I'm still feeling how I miss something.
edit: 2x Dispel are ILLEGAL in the sb,those give us a little chance against twin and are beatufil against burn too.
It seems as if the recent Grixis lists have been cutting Electrolyze for Kolaghan's command...but I a not 100% sold on its value vs. Certain match ups. I think electrolyze is one of better cards against affinity and infect both. Most of their dudes are 1/1 and taking out a couple with a well timed electrolyze is still as good as it ever was...not to mention it replaces itself. I think izzet charm is fine, but is it really what we are looking for vs. Most decks? I mean it isn't a hard counter and it doesn't necessarily draw us a card is a one of remand out of the question? or maybecut it and the leaks for the Rune Snags that Lil Bolas was referring to?
I think that with Twin being the standard that it is and with Bloom Titan still around the correct number should probably be 4. I think a 4 of our best counterspell in the deck is actually just needed at the moment. I think with the sheer amount of inevitability that we gain from having 1-2 in our hand gives us that it makes us a favorite to win the long game.
GrixisGuru I think using Demonic Rising is hilarious and even viable lol.
When I was playing a more draw go list at one time Demonic Rising gave me a reliable finisher that could close the game in a hurry...because we are often finishing a game using snapcaster mage or Vendilion clique for beatdowns so why not up our clock with a 5/5 demon...or use Tar Pit and swing for 3 get a 5/5 and then if they can't deal with said 5/5 get another one the following turn...everyone lauhged about it, but it did put in work.
I honestly think the main key to this deck in any form is just getting in your games with it...getting used to your list and knowing what other decks bring to the table and how they win vs. what we do. I don't think we are an underdog in any match up outside of the Bloom Titan match and the G/R tron match up. I know I have played this Archtype for over 2 years solid and have had several top 8's in local meta's from Ohio to Minnesota, unfortunately I travel and can't really do bigger tournaments because of the nature of my job and I'm usually working 12+ hours on Saturday/Sunday. I know what works in this deck for me and I know what I've had success with and what has been amounted to hot Garbage in my deck. My deck for anyone that is generally interested is always clickable in the link below any post I make on here and is usually updated when I play something new.
I understand that my take on the deck is a little extreme looking to put it mildly, but everyone dismises it as bad before even attempting a trial run with it. I guess to be honest it is a mix of a cruel control deck and a jund decck slapped together and you all aren't interested but I promise it does work.
I do think that I am open to making changes to the deck and working on the deck with Mr. Rotten has gotten me further into thinking and adjusting some choices but I'm not confidant enough to share a list that I know is still being tested because it definitely isn't ideal. There is also the point of no one tests anything really anyway, they just post what they think and tell you how their list is so much superior so there is that small tidbit.
The only things I can tell is that almost all of us agree on some spells that should be included in every list like...
That leaves you at least 8 slots that you can use in the main deck tomake it your own. Feel free to try out some weird ***** god knows I have...I have even tried Demonic Rising.
p.s. I still think Molten Rain sucks in our deck, but don't take it personally DoULikeMyUlt1m4tuM. We will agree to disagree.
Not to mention that a Fulminator Mage plus a surgical extraction on the piece that hit the graveyard leaves them crippled the rest of the game and all that can potentially cast on turn 3 alongside paying 2 life.
Can you possibly mainboard Molten rain? Does the 2 damage matter that much when all we really want to do is counter/kill everything that they do until their resources are completey gone...it isn't like a single land drop missing is the end of the world for them...usually the first 3 land drops doesn't matter to them if you are not keeping their hand under pressure. We only have so many viable counterspells so we need threats that can take decent chunks of life off of them not a chip shot a turn for 10 turns...Hit them with a fulminator counter a spell...drop a Tasigur and keep all relevant lands and artifacts off the field while you beat them down. Molten Rain can add to this package, but is definitely not a replacement to it.
I want a big improvment against tron post Sb.And the recursion snapMolten is to fckg better imho : 4 snap instead of 2 Command and 5 Mana needing instead of 6.
There isn't a MU where I sided Molten Rain And I needed a blocker , so idk. I prefer to hit my oppo, And that's all.
Your argument against Fulminator Mage is 6 man...vs. 5? Are you forgetting that Kolaghan's command is an instant and that you rarely use them on the same turn...plus for 6 mana vs. 5 they have to discard a card or they lose an important aftrifact vs. you having to have 5 untapped mana on 5 and tap out to play a Molten rain...which is like a thing no one on here believes in doing? Give me a break...Why not try something that someone else has had success with before instantly dissmissing it. If you don't have the cards that's understandable...to dissmiss it because you haven't tried it is pure stupid.
If you can get your paws on Fulminator Mages those will be better than Molten Rain in most situations. I have snapped back a molten rain though and it was glorious.
What about Careful Consideration? I know you were looking for a card filtering spell...I seen this being played as a one of in Adrian Sullivan's Esper Dragons list.
Hey man...if it works for you it works...but seriouslythough against affinity/infect or anything of the like it isn't unrealistic for them to do most of the damage on turns 3 and finish you off with there lands...so what I prefer to do, because I don't always have a snapcaster mage is discard any key pieces and or try to pick apart the important spells while I can and then try to get a 2 for one or better with Damnation. then I use spot removal to take out the man lands. I don't think that either approach is completely unreasonable.
Against the Collected Company decks I also just use Damnation to get rid of a board that seems unfavorable for me. I don't always turn 4 damnation but I do it when I either think or know the coast to be clear...plus the combo isn't that reliable in my experience vs the deck. I guess I use Damnation as a catch all against any kinnd of brew that someone has going and it is really really brutal at stopping random decks from doing there thing.
Here is my current Draw-Go List...It has been awesome against Collected Company all day and has around a 45/55 burn match...which I think could be improved, but the main issue n that match is whether or not the resolve Eidolon of the Great Revel. If I can counter this I have a much easier time against them...
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Sunken Ruins
2 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
Creatures - 7
1 Mulldrifter
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, The Golden Fang
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
Spells - 27
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Cryptic Command
1 Damnation
2 Electrolyze
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Logic Knot
2 Mana Leak
4 Serum Visions
1 Shadow of Doubt
2 Spell Snare
2 Terminate
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Dispel
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flashfreeze
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Rakdos Charm
1 Spellskite
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
I'm debating wether it should be Mulldrifter/Keranos, or Angler in the Main deck.
Im also debating if the Logic Knot should be a dispel, mana leak, or spell snare or remain a Logic Knot.Other than that I think I really like the list the way it is and I have had good test results across the board in matches so far...
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
Well this is definitely a well diversified list. I never went anywhere near this far down the Mystical Teachings plan though I do like the amount of Diversity you are able to find with your teachings package. I think Kolaghan's Command is going to have to occupy one of your electrolyze spots in the deck to not really make a big difference on what you already have going. Lop I think the deck could use a number of snapcaster mages for consistency sake but if you don't have them then by all means I understand that. If I was planning on paying it I also like being able to search out Vendilion Clique but that's personal preference. I don't actually think fulminator mage is going to make the main board of this deck because you are always going to have something better to do with your mana. I am not sure where you put him in at over there either. Wish I could be of more help but Overall I like the deck.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
I think most of us have washed that idea off to the side. I used to run it in my main, but after dropping my instant speed wraths from the main and my Teferi from the board I got rid of it too. How many Teachings and How many Targets for teachings do you run out of curiosity?
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
Of all the things you could say, you say that Chapin's list is untuned? I feel like this is very wrong considering he got 9th at a 2700 person tournament. The only thing he was really missing in his side was sweepers and the deck is as Grixis as they come. Granted we are on completely different plans as far as what our decks are designed to do as he wants to Turbo out Delve guys and draw more spells than his opponent over the course of a match which he is able to do by running 8 dedicated cantrips not counting things like the singleton shadow of doubt, remand or electrolyze. We are a control deck and don't pack that much draw. This also lets him skimp on lands because his curve topper is Crytic Command because you never pay more than 3 for the delve guys in his list.
On the Topic of Slay...I agree that it seems a little random, but realistically it is for specific matches and probably has a lot more uses than you would think in a heavy collected company/Jund meta...not to mention Various Wild Nactal decks.
I have given realistic thought of abandoning Cruel altogether and just playing his list because it functions much better against the meta than what we are doing, but let's face the facts...Cruel Ultimatum makes your opponent not want to play magic anymore after it is cast on him and that's way more fun to me.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
It is basically the version of Cruel Control I played before I added Liliana of the veil got added to my deck...I then added Tasigur in Place of one of the mana leaks and one Dreadbore. I also replaced the Remand with a Logic Knot to help make Tasigur a little better at what we are returning to our hand. I think it would be more a more accepted list than my other one and when I get a chance to get home to get my other cards I will test it.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
It seems as if the recent Grixis lists have been cutting Electrolyze for Kolaghan's command...but I a not 100% sold on its value vs. Certain match ups. I think electrolyze is one of better cards against affinity and infect both. Most of their dudes are 1/1 and taking out a couple with a well timed electrolyze is still as good as it ever was...not to mention it replaces itself. I think izzet charm is fine, but is it really what we are looking for vs. Most decks? I mean it isn't a hard counter and it doesn't necessarily draw us a card is a one of remand out of the question? or maybecut it and the leaks for the Rune Snags that Lil Bolas was referring to?
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
When I was playing a more draw go list at one time Demonic Rising gave me a reliable finisher that could close the game in a hurry...because we are often finishing a game using snapcaster mage or Vendilion clique for beatdowns so why not up our clock with a 5/5 demon...or use Tar Pit and swing for 3 get a 5/5 and then if they can't deal with said 5/5 get another one the following turn...everyone lauhged about it, but it did put in work.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
I understand that my take on the deck is a little extreme looking to put it mildly, but everyone dismises it as bad before even attempting a trial run with it. I guess to be honest it is a mix of a cruel control deck and a jund decck slapped together and you all aren't interested but I promise it does work.
I do think that I am open to making changes to the deck and working on the deck with Mr. Rotten has gotten me further into thinking and adjusting some choices but I'm not confidant enough to share a list that I know is still being tested because it definitely isn't ideal. There is also the point of no one tests anything really anyway, they just post what they think and tell you how their list is so much superior so there is that small tidbit.
The only things I can tell is that almost all of us agree on some spells that should be included in every list like...
3-4 snapcaster mage
1-2 electrolyze
2-3 Kolaghan's command
2 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Crytic Command
0-2 Damnation
4 Lightning bolt
2 mana leak
2 spell snare
2-3 Terminate
and some number around 25 lands...
That leaves you at least 8 slots that you can use in the main deck tomake it your own. Feel free to try out some weird ***** god knows I have...I have even tried Demonic Rising.
p.s. I still think Molten Rain sucks in our deck, but don't take it personally DoULikeMyUlt1m4tuM. We will agree to disagree.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
Your argument against Fulminator Mage is 6 man...vs. 5? Are you forgetting that Kolaghan's command is an instant and that you rarely use them on the same turn...plus for 6 mana vs. 5 they have to discard a card or they lose an important aftrifact vs. you having to have 5 untapped mana on 5 and tap out to play a Molten rain...which is like a thing no one on here believes in doing? Give me a break...Why not try something that someone else has had success with before instantly dissmissing it. If you don't have the cards that's understandable...to dissmiss it because you haven't tried it is pure stupid.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
How did your tournament go? Good/Bad/other?
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
What about Careful Consideration? I know you were looking for a card filtering spell...I seen this being played as a one of in Adrian Sullivan's Esper Dragons list.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
Against the Collected Company decks I also just use Damnation to get rid of a board that seems unfavorable for me. I don't always turn 4 damnation but I do it when I either think or know the coast to be clear...plus the combo isn't that reliable in my experience vs the deck. I guess I use Damnation as a catch all against any kinnd of brew that someone has going and it is really really brutal at stopping random decks from doing there thing.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas