Lists look good. Do you actually think Opt is better than Serum Visions in GDS? Because i think it's not even better than Sleight in GDS.
GDS doesn't work like a Delver deck, it works like a Jund deck with Delver if you will.
I can see the first list being a thing though. At least it work more on the principle of "Counters>Discard" so all the Opt being an instant thing actually serves some purpose.
My guess and bet is that, unless a more Delverish(less focused on grinding, more focused on Tempo) list becomes popular, Sleight will be the 3rd Cantrip of choice over Opt in classic GDS builds like todays. Serum Visions will still be a 4-of in every GDS build regardless of Opt being good or not.
Yeah i was pretty hyped about Opt but in GDS it's just better to stay with SV and Scour and if you go for the Sleight route, then you MIGHT want to cut those for Opt but it's not very clear really.
The only good thing about Opt is that it's and instant, apart from that it digs less than every other used cantrip in Modern. Maybe control, like Think Twice decks could want it. I think Serum Visions is plain better since it fixes our draws and dig deeper for what could be missing from our hand, being Lands,Threats or interaction. I lose plenty of games as Grixis Shadow because of not finding a threat or a second land in time. Cantrips are there to mitigate that and i'm afraid Opt is not better at that job than our previous options.
I think you should check other pros and players SB plan against ETron. Sleight doesn't seem to accomplish much cutting them since they smooth your deck and you already should bring some hate against Chalice.
Mixing it up with gm_jack and the YP talk, i tested it a bunch of games and it wasn't impressive at all, just ok. Following the premise of YP inclusion in GDS, i just think particualrly against Eldrazi it's just better to fight their hate with shatter effects and whatnot. By Force, Explosives, Rejection, have carried me more often than not. YP might be another angle of attack against everyones hate but it's fragile. Eldrzi will just run over him with Smasher and Endbringer, Walking Ballista, or they will just demolish your board with All is Dust.
Like most other matchups, they best route is Big Shadow after several Thoughtseizes. Also, removal has to be used in a purely proactive way, don't save Termiantes for big dumb fatties, clear the way for your threats to punch and get them low so they are constrained. Their late game is better than ours because of Tron lands and huge Ballistas. Those are my 2cents in regard of the Etron matchup.
To round up the YP discussion, i don't love the card but i could see it working just fine as a hedge in heavy Death's Shadow/BGx metas against Lotv. He is somewhat soft to Lili Last Hope though. My gut feeling is that it's better to play around hate with strong hands and tight play rather than playing threats that dodge GY hate. I will testing him a little more surely and whatever i extract from the experience i will report back here.
Esper is a pure trap since Red is actually the better SB color right now(at least for DS archetypes). You don't get RIP and a good sweeper plus Lingering Souls isn't really that good imo. It's an attrition mirror breaker but it's rather too slow in matchups DS struggles like Go wide aggro. I think the meta is being mean to you because Termiante and Kommand are very good cards in open metagames.
Eldrazi tron is a very hard matchup in my experience(which is a LOT of matches since my brother owns the deck and it's his only one). Chalice wrecks you hard. Matter Reshaper is annoying, their late game is better because of potential Ulamogs and Walking Ballistas, and MB Relics are a beating. Post board more Relics and Hangarback Walker make the matchup very skill intensive. I'm still looking for a good plan against them, TBR and shatter effects, Young Pyromancer, Rejection(this is a must anyways) and LOTV. I haven't found the best strategy this far, although a good plan for the matchup is playing aggro, drop Shadows fast after several Thoughtseizes and try to make them 6/6 ASAP. Post board the same apllies only that you have Ceremonious Rejection that if they don't have Cavern or Chalice out you will win backing it up with Snapcaster.
Yeah, i've been talking to some other GDS players in my community and they agree that cutting Stubborn Denial(even from the MB) is kind of crazy. This is obviosuly based on pure results. Denial has been a staple in every winning list and his Jundy list is more of a testing build(or at least he hasn't put any tangible result with it). Again, i like his premise but that doesn't make it right. I feel that Denial fills a role that might not be so crystal clear, but having the ability of playing protect the queen+defending against random nonsense is huge in this format. I always feels busted to me.
Ultimately, like most Modern decisions, it should be a pure metacall, i don't think cutting Denial entirely from the deck or even the MB is correct. If you expect a lot of Control, Mirrors and attrition based matchups then being more proactive could be better. Only testing can know.
The article is great. Although there are some things about his choices that i don´t particularly agree with. 3 Lilis in the MB seems too much since Liliana is actually bad against out hardest matchups(Go wide aggro in all its forms) and it's been pretty medium against Eldrazi in my experience(contrary to what he claims). Matter Reshaper is good against her and Reality Smasher/Walking Ballista are superb too.
I'm not sure i want to shave all Stubborn Denials from the MB since they have won me so many games i can't even count them. Having random protection against topdecked nonsense and whatnot has been excellent for me, and i think cutting Stubbys from the MB will make our combo matchup worse by a margin(not wide since cutting Denials comes with an uptick of IOK).
3 Snapcasters can work just fine since i often find 2 of them stranded in my hand or scrying them to the bottom. I don't mind having 3 or 4.
PVs premise seems coherent. You win more matchups by being Jundy instead of being Grixish(?). Being more proactive could be better. I think i will test his list and come back to report my learnings.
Has someone tested the +1 Sleight -1 Blood Crypt build? I have a couple of games with it and from a mana base standpoint i haven't had any issues yet, which certainly feels good since you flood less often.
From the Danny Jessup list at the SCG Open, i only have trouble with 2 Flaying Tendrils and 2 TBR in the SB. I'm very close to taking a similar list to his to the GP but i fear that being non conventional comes back to bite me after a lot of rounds.
List for reference: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/723542#paper
A couple of scenarios that i've seen many players and especially pro's like LSV,Manfield,etc differ.
1) Hand: Fetch,Thoughtseize,Serum Visions and non-Land randoms. Which do you play first and why? On the play and on the draw(assuming you don't hit land in first draw step).
2) Hand: 2 Fetch,Thoughtseize,Serum Visions and non Thought Scour randoms. On the play.
3) Hand: Lands,Serum Visions,Stubborn Denial,(W and W/O Fatal push) and non-discard randoms. On the play.
I'll start with that ones. I think this helps a lot because this deck is difficult to play around not getting blown out. Common scenario is going full suicide mode and Fetch Shocking Thoughtseize on T1 on the play, to find yourself against Burn. Feels bad. The goal is to discuss T1 plays on the dark.
So, how important do you think Surgical Extraction is in an open metagame like the GP?
I'm so conflicted in playing them. I don't have them in my SB right now, but i know my Storm,Nauseam,Dredge matchup should be worse by a margin(and the incidental Reanimator nonsense). I cutted them because i never found good use in them, opposite to decks like Grixis Control or UW where you actually NEED them to beat combo since you don't put pressure in their hands/battlefield whatsoever.
To add to the LOTV discussion. I think she is very good in the mirror, and overrall a super solid SB card since it's very good against most combo, control and Eldrazi decks. The problem is that she's not that good in the BGx matchups and against Jeskai/UW she is good but they can handle a 1 or 2 off. That's why in an open metagame, Last Hope is usually just better because she forwards our grindy plan and makes our large threats recursive WHILE being a threat by her own. She's a plain slam dunk in Grixis Shadow. The mirror comes down to top decks and better sequencing in my opinion.
I love the points he makes about Modern and efficiency. Also, i'm almost bought into the Temur Battle Rage idea. WHen i tested the card, i found it mediocre, but the fact that Modern is so wide open makes me want to give them a try again. It opens the SB up a lot.
Completely agree. Red is at its best in tandem with Snapcaster Mage. Kommand,Bolt,etc are very good with it. Also, i would be hesitant to make any assumption about the Modern metagame until HOU is playable. Claim//Fame is going to be a staple in UB/X DS, in my humble opinion.
If you project that thought, you see that Path to Exile should become even better. I'm not sure how it will affect Grixis Shadow's matchups, but Control will not be so hard. Esper Shadow could become better after Claim....
Quick question: What does Surgical Extraction accomplish in our deck besides the Dredge matchup? Is it really that good against combo? I guess against Valakut it could be good, but Nauseam is already bringing Leyline which invalidates Discard spells which are the realiable way of putting pieces into their GY.
Oh definitely. Our deck does lose despite many people beliefs. Eldrazi Tron is nowhere a good matchup, 5050 at most and this is considering the players sitting are very good players or pros.
I'm of those persons who still believe DS is very good but not oppressively good.
Chamaleon Colossus seems like a total beating. Valakut decks are proving powerful in this metagame. I think it had a few 7-1 in the MOCS.
I'm still waiting for HOU release to see what people do with Claim//Fame. I thought it was medium since Fame costed 2R, but when a friend told me it was 1R it changed my mind, i think the card is quite bonkers in our deck(maybe Jund version uses it better? Doubt it). Before that, i really can't do serious testing.
Also, this deck is really slowing down on growing uptick. I really hope it gets hated hard and people actually start playing other strategies like BW Pox and UW Control which wreck Shadow pretty hard. Still, Grixis DS is the best deck in the format and i fully expect action from R&D and WOTC.
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You can see here only 2 Sleights and 18 lands. I know cutting down lands seems greedy, but it should make the deck more compact and more redundant which are good things.
Also, i think with Grixis Shadow closing in a whopping 15% of the metagame, it's safe to say that Liliana of the Veil is pretty much a SB staple as it fights several decks AND the mirror. Eldrazi,Combo and UW(R)/x hate her too.
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GDS doesn't work like a Delver deck, it works like a Jund deck with Delver if you will.
I can see the first list being a thing though. At least it work more on the principle of "Counters>Discard" so all the Opt being an instant thing actually serves some purpose.
My guess and bet is that, unless a more Delverish(less focused on grinding, more focused on Tempo) list becomes popular, Sleight will be the 3rd Cantrip of choice over Opt in classic GDS builds like todays. Serum Visions will still be a 4-of in every GDS build regardless of Opt being good or not.
The only good thing about Opt is that it's and instant, apart from that it digs less than every other used cantrip in Modern. Maybe control, like Think Twice decks could want it. I think Serum Visions is plain better since it fixes our draws and dig deeper for what could be missing from our hand, being Lands,Threats or interaction. I lose plenty of games as Grixis Shadow because of not finding a threat or a second land in time. Cantrips are there to mitigate that and i'm afraid Opt is not better at that job than our previous options.
Mixing it up with gm_jack and the YP talk, i tested it a bunch of games and it wasn't impressive at all, just ok. Following the premise of YP inclusion in GDS, i just think particualrly against Eldrazi it's just better to fight their hate with shatter effects and whatnot. By Force, Explosives, Rejection, have carried me more often than not. YP might be another angle of attack against everyones hate but it's fragile. Eldrzi will just run over him with Smasher and Endbringer, Walking Ballista, or they will just demolish your board with All is Dust.
Like most other matchups, they best route is Big Shadow after several Thoughtseizes. Also, removal has to be used in a purely proactive way, don't save Termiantes for big dumb fatties, clear the way for your threats to punch and get them low so they are constrained. Their late game is better than ours because of Tron lands and huge Ballistas. Those are my 2cents in regard of the Etron matchup.
To round up the YP discussion, i don't love the card but i could see it working just fine as a hedge in heavy Death's Shadow/BGx metas against Lotv. He is somewhat soft to Lili Last Hope though. My gut feeling is that it's better to play around hate with strong hands and tight play rather than playing threats that dodge GY hate. I will testing him a little more surely and whatever i extract from the experience i will report back here.
Eldrazi tron is a very hard matchup in my experience(which is a LOT of matches since my brother owns the deck and it's his only one). Chalice wrecks you hard. Matter Reshaper is annoying, their late game is better because of potential Ulamogs and Walking Ballistas, and MB Relics are a beating. Post board more Relics and Hangarback Walker make the matchup very skill intensive. I'm still looking for a good plan against them, TBR and shatter effects, Young Pyromancer, Rejection(this is a must anyways) and LOTV. I haven't found the best strategy this far, although a good plan for the matchup is playing aggro, drop Shadows fast after several Thoughtseizes and try to make them 6/6 ASAP. Post board the same apllies only that you have Ceremonious Rejection that if they don't have Cavern or Chalice out you will win backing it up with Snapcaster.
Ultimately, like most Modern decisions, it should be a pure metacall, i don't think cutting Denial entirely from the deck or even the MB is correct. If you expect a lot of Control, Mirrors and attrition based matchups then being more proactive could be better. Only testing can know.
I'm not sure i want to shave all Stubborn Denials from the MB since they have won me so many games i can't even count them. Having random protection against topdecked nonsense and whatnot has been excellent for me, and i think cutting Stubbys from the MB will make our combo matchup worse by a margin(not wide since cutting Denials comes with an uptick of IOK).
3 Snapcasters can work just fine since i often find 2 of them stranded in my hand or scrying them to the bottom. I don't mind having 3 or 4.
PVs premise seems coherent. You win more matchups by being Jundy instead of being Grixish(?). Being more proactive could be better. I think i will test his list and come back to report my learnings.
From the Danny Jessup list at the SCG Open, i only have trouble with 2 Flaying Tendrils and 2 TBR in the SB. I'm very close to taking a similar list to his to the GP but i fear that being non conventional comes back to bite me after a lot of rounds.
List for reference: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/723542#paper
1) Hand: Fetch,Thoughtseize,Serum Visions and non-Land randoms. Which do you play first and why? On the play and on the draw(assuming you don't hit land in first draw step).
2) Hand: 2 Fetch,Thoughtseize,Serum Visions and non Thought Scour randoms. On the play.
3) Hand: Lands,Serum Visions,Stubborn Denial,(W and W/O Fatal push) and non-discard randoms. On the play.
I'll start with that ones. I think this helps a lot because this deck is difficult to play around not getting blown out. Common scenario is going full suicide mode and Fetch Shocking Thoughtseize on T1 on the play, to find yourself against Burn. Feels bad. The goal is to discuss T1 plays on the dark.
I'm so conflicted in playing them. I don't have them in my SB right now, but i know my Storm,Nauseam,Dredge matchup should be worse by a margin(and the incidental Reanimator nonsense). I cutted them because i never found good use in them, opposite to decks like Grixis Control or UW where you actually NEED them to beat combo since you don't put pressure in their hands/battlefield whatsoever.
EDIT PS: I don't know if this article has been brought up here, but i found it very interesting and insightful. Andrew Jessup on GDS: http://www.gatheringmagic.com/andrewjessup-06202017-deaths-shadow-is-the-good-guy/
I love the points he makes about Modern and efficiency. Also, i'm almost bought into the Temur Battle Rage idea. WHen i tested the card, i found it mediocre, but the fact that Modern is so wide open makes me want to give them a try again. It opens the SB up a lot.
If you project that thought, you see that Path to Exile should become even better. I'm not sure how it will affect Grixis Shadow's matchups, but Control will not be so hard. Esper Shadow could become better after Claim....
I'm of those persons who still believe DS is very good but not oppressively good.
Chamaleon Colossus seems like a total beating. Valakut decks are proving powerful in this metagame. I think it had a few 7-1 in the MOCS.
Also, this deck is really slowing down on growing uptick. I really hope it gets hated hard and people actually start playing other strategies like BW Pox and UW Control which wreck Shadow pretty hard. Still, Grixis DS is the best deck in the format and i fully expect action from R&D and WOTC.
http://f2fseries.facetofacegames.com/facetofacegames-com-edmonton-open-coverage-june-24th-2017/
You can see here only 2 Sleights and 18 lands. I know cutting down lands seems greedy, but it should make the deck more compact and more redundant which are good things.
Also, i think with Grixis Shadow closing in a whopping 15% of the metagame, it's safe to say that Liliana of the Veil is pretty much a SB staple as it fights several decks AND the mirror. Eldrazi,Combo and UW(R)/x hate her too.