Nope! But bbelfibg into 5 damage seems dope. I think the issue with domain zoo is that if you want to use stuff like sideboard counters or discard, and snapcaster mage you shouldnt go bbelf. You probably go rhino instead.
But you can probably be more aggressive. Maybe running might of alara sometime.
Heres what I am running. Been working great. actually having a 50/50 matchup with Jund/k/rock, and Have only lost 1 round against all jace decks (midrange and control, around 30 or so control decks.)
This deck does not lose to any removal decks really. Ive beaten pretty much all blood moon destroy lands decks too. Been over preforming. I think if you are going rallier, this is the best version you can run. I'll work on a thalia build next... though Atarkas command build is also pretty cool in my head.
Voice and ooze 2-1 can be swapped, but not noticeable reason to do it in my testing. Probably can run bloodmoon too over choke. Theres just enough blue right now that its basically one sided blood moon. Id switch a horizon into a forest.
Overall, the deck is super solid. Tier 2, 1.5? Not 1. Please take it out for a spin. Comment if you want any questions on this build answered. I'm about 100 rounds in now.
Great to see you back in the Zoo again! Even more so that you like the list Enabling Renegade Rallier the way this deck does feels so good! I'm actually very exited to play vs jund now. I know Grixis is a breeze, but we might need some tech v.s. tokens. (Pyromancer / Souls) though the trample at our disposal gets us a long way.
@Lantern, why don't you play Ghost Quarter?
Never been a huge fan of it to be honest. Also turn 4ing it always seemed pretty late. I like having my mana more, so horizon canopy seemed better. I actually faced very little tron or pyro
I'd still like to fit at least 1 Domri in the list, maybe on the sideboard.
EDIT:
There's another 5-0 from that Tribal list I posted on the last page with Kird Apes, Loam Lions and Mantis Riders.
I was going to say that right now I think anything aggressive can 5-0. This isnt to take away from his accomplishments. Its really hard to lose to a jace control deck if you have a grip full of 1-2 mana threats against counters and expensive removal. Especially because people right now are playing jace REALLY baddly and using him turn 4 to be a 4 mana bounce spell or brainstorm before it dies. More below.
I'd still like to fit at least 1 Domri in the list, maybe on the sideboard.
EDIT:
There's another 5-0 from that Tribal list I posted on the last page with Kird Apes, Loam Lions and Mantis Riders.
That guy went a grand total of 12-7 he's a friend of mine. He doesn't like the list.
Hey cool. tell him congrats for me. I suspect it has to be really good vs removal or jace decks, but can easily out paced. Thats why I dont like kird ape and loam lion
Heres what I am running. Been working great. actually having a 50/50 matchup with Jund/k/rock, and Have only lost 1 round against all jace decks (midrange and control, around 30 or so control decks.)
This deck does not lose to any removal decks really. Ive beaten pretty much all blood moon destroy lands decks too. Been over preforming. I think if you are going rallier, this is the best version you can run. I'll work on a thalia build next... though Atarkas command build is also pretty cool in my head.
Voice and ooze 2-1 can be swapped, but not noticeable reason to do it in my testing. Probably can run bloodmoon too over choke. Theres just enough blue right now that its basically one sided blood moon. Id switch a horizon into a forest.
Overall, the deck is super solid. Tier 2, 1.5? Not 1. Please take it out for a spin. Comment if you want any questions on this build answered. I'm about 100 rounds in now.
Just to jump in as a long time zoo player... you still ran canonists and thalias in zoo, even back when BBElf was legal. The power levels were high enough to justify it.
Honestly, Ive never liked railer, but bbelf does make it more appealing to me. Ive used seals with bbelf before, its a nice thought worth testing. Might be solid enough tech to seperate it from the pack...
Though if I was running a full burn suite i still wouldnt run thalia
Thalia is solid in zoo, but she really was great in small zoo, less good in more bigger.
I've been waiting to play a classic zoo list competitively forever now... With the elf on our side what are looking like it chances of reliving subs of the old girl days? How would you guys consider our matchups in the proposed shell in a local meta such as Tron, jund, Jace, affinity, elves, fish, storm?
What do you mean by classic? Like kird apes and loam lions?
Like just Naya good stuff.
Yeah, it doesnt fix our losing the fast game to a bunch of other decks issue, but it forsure helps our ending aggro midgame problem
Tron- Probably good, but eldrazi tron is probably an issue. I havent played much naya against them when the archtype was starting to be formed.
jund- Probably not good. weve always been soft to them
Jace- Probably good, just dont over extend into wipes. You always need to play control matchups with reserve gas.
affinity- pre board probably bad. Post board really good if you have grudge along with burn.
elves- probably bad, they combo fast.
fish- depends on the amount of burn. But Ive always found it slightly in our favor.
storm- Aweful. Need to hit the silver bullet in the side to have a shot.
Overall, Zoo is king in a tempo and control meta. We havent had one of those since Delver tresure cruise days. Historically its terrible in combo midrange meta, but historically, modern gravitates to that. With jace existing? Up in the air. If its a force, we have a diffiniate role to play in the meta.
I've been waiting to play a classic zoo list competitively forever now... With the elf on our side what are looking like it chances of reliving subs of the old girl days? How would you guys consider our matchups in the proposed shell in a local meta such as Tron, jund, Jace, affinity, elves, fish, storm?
What do you mean by classic? Like kird apes and loam lions?
So I've got past experiences with domri vs jace in legacy, and BBelfing into domri.
If you can resolve a domri vs any form of control deck you win. Period. He is basically a ticking time bomb. I wouldnt dip below 28 creatures for him ever, agreed. But even missing with him and ulting him is enough to beat control. Hell, them scrambling to find some way to off him usually is enough of a window to win.
If jace control becomes a main stay force, he is probably a 2 of in the deck. As far as burn suite, I used to run 4 bolt, 3 helix, 2 path in my decks and that worked out just fine. The 2,2, 1 split on hate bears is my go to number as well. If I was to tweak the list it would be going up a domri, down a helix. I think 21 lands is correct. I always played it close with 20 lands, but I usually risk it for the biscuit, so I'm not suggesting it.
Ok, so I switched over to my computer so I can type up a long response. I know Ive been pretty dormant but I've played extesively with Bloodbraid elf and Jace back in the day, so I can save you guys some leg work in this.
This unban is ultimately good for us. Zoo has always preyed on control and tempo decks... Tempo has popped up and disappeared in modern often but control has never really been good. This will solve alot of their problems, so ironically, alot of ours. Ive been saying for years that Zoo's biggest weakness is control sucks.
All of our cards are all good vs Jace. Literally all of them.
The meat of it. Bloodbraid is good. Very good. But don't be fooled, she isn't absolutely disgusting in our deck. When she is hitting 3-2 drops and absurd swingy spells she is... which means shes better in jund. BB into bolt is aggressive for us, but BB into lillina is #broke. BBE is an aggressive card, who is best played late game when both players have run low on resources. Often we run low, play her and the Opponent can still 2 for 1 us fine because they haven't and she didnt do much at all. But she does help make closing out the game better for us.
My main point is... dont overestimate Bloodbraid Elf. Its a very good card, but isn't absolutely broken for us. Her role should (and always should be) to close the game. Those times she recovers our board after a wipe, or is the perfect blocker nabs us a perfect combo piece, are few and far between. But she does do that one job, closing the game, better than any card aside from maybe elspeth and siege rhino.
Now lets get to the good stuff about her since we can be a little realistic now we know her limitations. As Ive said, she closes the game on turn 4 and is broken on turn 3. You should be playing her in all versions of zoo now as a top ender... but not always a 4 of. In some of the lower curved lists that number should be 2. In some of the zoo lists that have only around 4-5 3 drops, she should be a 3 of. In any list running 4 Noble Hierarchs, she should be a 4 of, as turn 3ing her is absurd.
Zoo also can go back to some value creatures unless you are balls to the walls blitz. Pridemage, Thalia, voice, ooze all get better because of her. As do all sideboard cards. She increases the chance you will hit them. So Id change our sides to be more narrow but powerful answers. Run stuff like blood moon over edge or ghost quarter. You have more "draw power" and more pressure now, you just need to patch bad match ups, not prep for overall weakness now that just attacking can win you the game.
Id also tend to add more burn when I have elf. Helix for example is great. Bloodbraid really removes the reactiveness zoo can sometimes pack. You arent going to be casting stuff that wont have a target. Which is why burn is preferred over path. You wont be running counter spells either if you were doing that, or even stuff like Boros charm. I have my doubts about renegade rallier as well. Main decks cards should have cards that are "always on" because thats the only way to really turn blood braid to max.
This card should be absolutely gone from our lists. At best, this card is worth 6 mana (2 3dudes) and at worst gives you 0 if you flop. Bloodbraid will always give you 4 worth of value (3/2 haste is worth 3 and cascade will always hit at least 1 mana) which is 4 more mana than company's worst case. Its best case is 6 (3 mana dude plus bloodbraid) so its the same.
The only place company is better is being better vs control (meh, were fine vs that, plus agrueable since bbe is 2 spells) board wipes/ removal, and finding silver bullets. But we arent a silver bullet deck. Sometimes we pack em, but we pack em fairly. So Company was always worse in our deck. BBE is better.
I'm not sure BBE replaces this in domain. Both cards do the same thing, and might be around the same level in power. BBelf might be slightly higher since it can hit flames. In domain sometimes you play discard and counters though, in which case Id play rhino over it. This is the only spot I cant for sure say Elf is better. I dunno. Up to the hive mind. My suggestion is to swap it and really be critical about its abilities.
Jund is going to be better now, so its useage and power level just went up, which is bad for us. Keep that in mind.
So blitz zoo, bigger zoo, 4-5 color zoo or small zoo? My bet is on bigger zoo. Blitz likes the speed, but 4 mana is a tall ask. I'm sure they adopt the card as a 2 of for games that go longer, but I wouldnt call that a huge upgrade. 4-5 color zoo, the issue has been mana as always. Its painful. this makes it better, forsure, but its not like deathrite shaman got unbanned, the card that WOULD fix their problems. As Ive said, rhino is comparable... so I think the deck has more options and power now, but not fixing the main issue.
Small zoo sucks. Its uninteractive, 2/3s for 1 mana are terrible since gurmag angler. Bbelfing into a kird ape feels bad. No.
Bigger zoo checks all the ways to make an aggressive bbelf at peak opimization. Mana dorks to turn 3 it, more 3 and 2 drops to make better value out of it, reliably hit it turn 4. I actually would cut 5 drops out of the deck for better 3 drops now because bbelf into a 3 drop (or burn) is much stronger and faster and impact the game.
heres a short list of cards that all got better with BBElf
All normal beat down dudes like nacatl
All forms of burn (makes path and discard worse)
goblin guide
vexing devil
grim lavamancer
Noble Heirch
Thalia
Ooze
Voice
Pridemage
Knight of the reliquary
Kitchen Finks
Atarkas command
Seal of fire
Seal of pandamonium
Domri Rade
Gideon of the trials
Sideboard cards that are enchantments, artifacts, or bodies.
Doesnt work anymore. Sorry you guys can't live the dream like the old days.
So I'm not sure if this makes zoo better than humans. I've been out of the loop for a while but came back on pro tour to watch it... And humans kinda acts like a tribal version small zoo. Its a weird blend of hatebears and small zoo. Basically everything in the deck interacts with the opponent, or beats down, and it does that job really well. Honestly... if they wanted too they could run elf. It worries me a bit, because if humans does what zoo does but better, you get into an out classed situation, which isnt good.
Overall... Look, BBELF helps zoo compete. We can actually abuse it. We dont use it like jund does, we use it much more aggressively. But I'm not sure this is the card to save the zoo decks. I'm still full on about how zoo needs another 1 3/3. Right now, you can go faster and lose the long game, or go slower and lose the early game. A 3/3 at 1 lets us win the short game and still compete into the long game. BBElf in my opinion certainly raises the power level of zoo, but doesn't fix the core issue as to why we arent top tier.
admirals orders is another weirdly aggressive counterspell we "could" add to our tool box. Bad at preventing combos, good at stopping combat, post removal.
Elspeth in my running has always been a "top of curve wins the game card" I mean its basically can read: "4 mana target noble heirach deals 4 damage" at worst and at best "Target 3 drop wins the game for you".
To me, if you are looking for walkers to end the game with a good aggressive early game attached, elspeth is the way to go. But if you are more midrange than aggressive, and I'm talking more like... naya midrange, with things like more 3 drops and most of your one drops are mana dorks, then Chandra could be better as she only gets better the longer the game drags on. Same with Arylnn Kord.
In said naya midranges I've even dropped the number of Nacatls and Goyfs to focus more on mana ramp to hit 4-5 mana threats like walkers and dragons. But I do think if you are a zoo with an aggressive start but just a longer aggression game ala nacatls and top ending at 4 instead of 3, elspeth is likely better.
But you can probably be more aggressive. Maybe running might of alara sometime.
Never been a huge fan of it to be honest. Also turn 4ing it always seemed pretty late. I like having my mana more, so horizon canopy seemed better. I actually faced very little tron or pyro
I was going to say that right now I think anything aggressive can 5-0. This isnt to take away from his accomplishments. Its really hard to lose to a jace control deck if you have a grip full of 1-2 mana threats against counters and expensive removal. Especially because people right now are playing jace REALLY baddly and using him turn 4 to be a 4 mana bounce spell or brainstorm before it dies. More below.
Hey cool. tell him congrats for me. I suspect it has to be really good vs removal or jace decks, but can easily out paced. Thats why I dont like kird ape and loam lion
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Voice of Resurgence
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Renegade Rallier
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Seal of Fire
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Plains
2 Temple Garden
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Stony Silence
2 Choke
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Path to Exile
Heres what I am running. Been working great. actually having a 50/50 matchup with Jund/k/rock, and Have only lost 1 round against all jace decks (midrange and control, around 30 or so control decks.)
This deck does not lose to any removal decks really. Ive beaten pretty much all blood moon destroy lands decks too. Been over preforming. I think if you are going rallier, this is the best version you can run. I'll work on a thalia build next... though Atarkas command build is also pretty cool in my head.
Voice and ooze 2-1 can be swapped, but not noticeable reason to do it in my testing. Probably can run bloodmoon too over choke. Theres just enough blue right now that its basically one sided blood moon. Id switch a horizon into a forest.
Overall, the deck is super solid. Tier 2, 1.5? Not 1. Please take it out for a spin. Comment if you want any questions on this build answered. I'm about 100 rounds in now.
Not picking a side here, just pointing it out
Id start with something like this
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Plains
2 Temple Garden
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Voice of Resurgence
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Renegade Rallier
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
Though if I was running a full burn suite i still wouldnt run thalia
Thalia is solid in zoo, but she really was great in small zoo, less good in more bigger.
Yeah, it doesnt fix our losing the fast game to a bunch of other decks issue, but it forsure helps our ending aggro midgame problem
Tron- Probably good, but eldrazi tron is probably an issue. I havent played much naya against them when the archtype was starting to be formed.
jund- Probably not good. weve always been soft to them
Jace- Probably good, just dont over extend into wipes. You always need to play control matchups with reserve gas.
affinity- pre board probably bad. Post board really good if you have grudge along with burn.
elves- probably bad, they combo fast.
fish- depends on the amount of burn. But Ive always found it slightly in our favor.
storm- Aweful. Need to hit the silver bullet in the side to have a shot.
Overall, Zoo is king in a tempo and control meta. We havent had one of those since Delver tresure cruise days. Historically its terrible in combo midrange meta, but historically, modern gravitates to that. With jace existing? Up in the air. If its a force, we have a diffiniate role to play in the meta.
What do you mean by classic? Like kird apes and loam lions?
If you can resolve a domri vs any form of control deck you win. Period. He is basically a ticking time bomb. I wouldnt dip below 28 creatures for him ever, agreed. But even missing with him and ulting him is enough to beat control. Hell, them scrambling to find some way to off him usually is enough of a window to win.
If jace control becomes a main stay force, he is probably a 2 of in the deck. As far as burn suite, I used to run 4 bolt, 3 helix, 2 path in my decks and that worked out just fine. The 2,2, 1 split on hate bears is my go to number as well. If I was to tweak the list it would be going up a domri, down a helix. I think 21 lands is correct. I always played it close with 20 lands, but I usually risk it for the biscuit, so I'm not suggesting it.
This unban is ultimately good for us. Zoo has always preyed on control and tempo decks... Tempo has popped up and disappeared in modern often but control has never really been good. This will solve alot of their problems, so ironically, alot of ours. Ive been saying for years that Zoo's biggest weakness is control sucks.
All of our cards are all good vs Jace. Literally all of them.
The meat of it. Bloodbraid is good. Very good. But don't be fooled, she isn't absolutely disgusting in our deck. When she is hitting 3-2 drops and absurd swingy spells she is... which means shes better in jund. BB into bolt is aggressive for us, but BB into lillina is #broke. BBE is an aggressive card, who is best played late game when both players have run low on resources. Often we run low, play her and the Opponent can still 2 for 1 us fine because they haven't and she didnt do much at all. But she does help make closing out the game better for us.
My main point is... dont overestimate Bloodbraid Elf. Its a very good card, but isn't absolutely broken for us. Her role should (and always should be) to close the game. Those times she recovers our board after a wipe, or is the perfect blocker nabs us a perfect combo piece, are few and far between. But she does do that one job, closing the game, better than any card aside from maybe elspeth and siege rhino.
Now lets get to the good stuff about her since we can be a little realistic now we know her limitations. As Ive said, she closes the game on turn 4 and is broken on turn 3. You should be playing her in all versions of zoo now as a top ender... but not always a 4 of. In some of the lower curved lists that number should be 2. In some of the zoo lists that have only around 4-5 3 drops, she should be a 3 of. In any list running 4 Noble Hierarchs, she should be a 4 of, as turn 3ing her is absurd.
Zoo also can go back to some value creatures unless you are balls to the walls blitz. Pridemage, Thalia, voice, ooze all get better because of her. As do all sideboard cards. She increases the chance you will hit them. So Id change our sides to be more narrow but powerful answers. Run stuff like blood moon over edge or ghost quarter. You have more "draw power" and more pressure now, you just need to patch bad match ups, not prep for overall weakness now that just attacking can win you the game.
Id also tend to add more burn when I have elf. Helix for example is great. Bloodbraid really removes the reactiveness zoo can sometimes pack. You arent going to be casting stuff that wont have a target. Which is why burn is preferred over path. You wont be running counter spells either if you were doing that, or even stuff like Boros charm. I have my doubts about renegade rallier as well. Main decks cards should have cards that are "always on" because thats the only way to really turn blood braid to max.
This card should be absolutely gone from our lists. At best, this card is worth 6 mana (2 3dudes) and at worst gives you 0 if you flop. Bloodbraid will always give you 4 worth of value (3/2 haste is worth 3 and cascade will always hit at least 1 mana) which is 4 more mana than company's worst case. Its best case is 6 (3 mana dude plus bloodbraid) so its the same.
The only place company is better is being better vs control (meh, were fine vs that, plus agrueable since bbe is 2 spells) board wipes/ removal, and finding silver bullets. But we arent a silver bullet deck. Sometimes we pack em, but we pack em fairly. So Company was always worse in our deck. BBE is better.
I'm not sure BBE replaces this in domain. Both cards do the same thing, and might be around the same level in power. BBelf might be slightly higher since it can hit flames. In domain sometimes you play discard and counters though, in which case Id play rhino over it. This is the only spot I cant for sure say Elf is better. I dunno. Up to the hive mind. My suggestion is to swap it and really be critical about its abilities.
Jund is going to be better now, so its useage and power level just went up, which is bad for us. Keep that in mind.
So blitz zoo, bigger zoo, 4-5 color zoo or small zoo? My bet is on bigger zoo. Blitz likes the speed, but 4 mana is a tall ask. I'm sure they adopt the card as a 2 of for games that go longer, but I wouldnt call that a huge upgrade. 4-5 color zoo, the issue has been mana as always. Its painful. this makes it better, forsure, but its not like deathrite shaman got unbanned, the card that WOULD fix their problems. As Ive said, rhino is comparable... so I think the deck has more options and power now, but not fixing the main issue.
Small zoo sucks. Its uninteractive, 2/3s for 1 mana are terrible since gurmag angler. Bbelfing into a kird ape feels bad. No.
Bigger zoo checks all the ways to make an aggressive bbelf at peak opimization. Mana dorks to turn 3 it, more 3 and 2 drops to make better value out of it, reliably hit it turn 4. I actually would cut 5 drops out of the deck for better 3 drops now because bbelf into a 3 drop (or burn) is much stronger and faster and impact the game.
heres a short list of cards that all got better with BBElf
Doesnt work anymore. Sorry you guys can't live the dream like the old days.
So I'm not sure if this makes zoo better than humans. I've been out of the loop for a while but came back on pro tour to watch it... And humans kinda acts like a tribal version small zoo. Its a weird blend of hatebears and small zoo. Basically everything in the deck interacts with the opponent, or beats down, and it does that job really well. Honestly... if they wanted too they could run elf. It worries me a bit, because if humans does what zoo does but better, you get into an out classed situation, which isnt good.
Overall... Look, BBELF helps zoo compete. We can actually abuse it. We dont use it like jund does, we use it much more aggressively. But I'm not sure this is the card to save the zoo decks. I'm still full on about how zoo needs another 1 3/3. Right now, you can go faster and lose the long game, or go slower and lose the early game. A 3/3 at 1 lets us win the short game and still compete into the long game. BBElf in my opinion certainly raises the power level of zoo, but doesn't fix the core issue as to why we arent top tier.
Realistically... jam her in every zoo list that existed prior.
I wouldnt go crazy yet yall. Bbelf also means jund got better, and we suck against that.
To me, if you are looking for walkers to end the game with a good aggressive early game attached, elspeth is the way to go. But if you are more midrange than aggressive, and I'm talking more like... naya midrange, with things like more 3 drops and most of your one drops are mana dorks, then Chandra could be better as she only gets better the longer the game drags on. Same with Arylnn Kord.
In said naya midranges I've even dropped the number of Nacatls and Goyfs to focus more on mana ramp to hit 4-5 mana threats like walkers and dragons. But I do think if you are a zoo with an aggressive start but just a longer aggression game ala nacatls and top ending at 4 instead of 3, elspeth is likely better.