Yep yep! I didnt mean to come off harsh if I did. We've done this twice in the past 7 years and its ended up poorly. If zoo ever broke tier 1, and there was a build that was hands and feet better then the rest, wed make the split since the list would be highly tuned and "figured out" by the hivemind.
Does anybody else wonder whether it would be beneficial to split this thread? We currently have people playing:
1) Revolt Zoo
2) Small Tribal Zoo
3) Naya Company
4) Traditional Big Zoo
5) Big Tribal Domain Zoo
...all posting in the same thread. Content related to (1) is irrelevant to (5) and vice versa and in between is not much better. It just seems suboptimal from a utility standpoint. Just my $0.02.
Its been talked about, and its still an overwhelming no. Zoo uses pretty much the same core no matter what. It also doesnt have enough wins under its belt to justify a split based on color like grixis shadow vs jund shadow. All the threads would be in deck creation, not tier 2. Lastly, it isnt popular enough. All the threads would be never really posted on. As it stands this thread gets about 1 post a day.
Ran this again at FMN, because well, I was running around and this was build from the week before last, which was prerelease. I didnt manage to quick fix a helix in there, but /shrug.
Round 1 vs Goblins
I was paired vs a kid who was new to modern, and he had this half burn half goblin deck. I dont have a good burn matchup, but I opened a game 1 hand of like all paths and pushes with a tarmo, so I wiggled out of it pretty easily.
I sided in 2 timely, 1 feed the clan, 1 explosions, 1 bon fire outting 2 knight and 4 geist.
He landed a turn 2 great revel, and with my explosions being way too slow here... yeah it didnt work.
Game 3 I had smooth mana dorks, blockers, and then rhinos to coast me the win.
1-0
Round 2 vs Bant Eldrazi
Ben ran a little cold tonight. He mulled in both games, but I had pretty powerful hands regardless, playing really good curves, and path to exile back up, so I made a quick game 1 with nacatl, goyf, and knight, pathing out the last blockers (tokens and mana dorks) to secure the win.
Sided in 2 Mind Censor to hopefully mana screw, 2 seize for big things, taking out 2 geist, 2 bolt.
He mulled again, which I'm sure helped me. I seized turn 1 with my slow hand, and took away collected alliance, so he hand no real great early game. Still my hand was a little slow and managed to start to get close to stabilizing against me with drowners of hopes, to tap down big knights and rhinos. Still, I was fine enought to get him to 6, which he cracked a fetch, so flames was enough for the win, between my fetch and knight he couldnt ghost it.
2-0
Round 3 vs Grixis Death's Shadow
My buddy Alex, and I felt good going into this. This was basically a "better" death shadow deck in these matchups. Game 1 I went in pretty hard with a nacatl and goyf. He lowered his life total to the point where I rhinoed him close to death, rhinoed him again to 3, then topped a bolt for the win.
I sided in 2 aven and 1 decay, taking out a bolt and 2 knights. I wanted geist since once it is in play it would win.
I open a great hand of noble, goyf, 2 geist. He seizes my geists away, sad panda. Still it lets me take an early lead while nacatls and goyfs do their job. He gets to the point where I have a rhino on board with a nacatl, he has a shadow thats huge, and I leave rhino up to chump and we go into the stall. However I have burn and snaps, and he has to whirl his gears every turn to ensure he doesnt die to what ever creature I played that turn. eventually I go all in with my nacatl and rhino to force him to waste mana on the removal spell so I can get a safe flames in for the win (he was at 2, bolt woulda done it too, or any removal spell.)
3-0
Round 4 vs G/W Hatebears
Game 1 goes really long. I have all the snaps in the world and dont draw a removal spell, so his tireless tracker eventually draws him the game. For what its worth, the deck still managed to fight really well consitering he drew close to 5-6 extra cards than me that game. Life total was 1 to 1.
Ined Aven Mindcensor, Bonfire of the Damned, explosions, out geist. Thought about cage, but decided against it. He doesnt run combos I assumed. So aven is just better.
Game 2 was a little fun. I opened a hand with a mana dork turn 1, then turn 2 I bolted a bird to slow him, while playing a nacatl and a tapped land, then I push snap bolted things in combat for unfair trades on my end (3 for oneing him) then after he regained his footing, snap pushed flames his team again, so nacatls 4 damage just got there.
Game 3 was pretty fast. I turn 1 nacatled, turn 2 goyfed, turn 3 knight, turn 4 rhinoed, turn 5 rhinoed and bolted. Just a perfect curve and his dudes were just tiny.
4-0
Overall:
Really good, and felt pretty easy to win. At no time, cept vs the burn goblins, did I feel pressured I wasnt going to win. When most of the modern meta is trying to do a pissing contest over the tallest guy (death shadow, bant eldrazi, jund's tasigur, tron's smashers) this deck just WRECKS. Its weakness is aggro, but those have been really hard hit by the decks I'm mentioning, so this just litterally one ups all the things they do.
Why settle for prepping and protecting a turn 4 7/7, when I can have a turn 1 3/3, turn 2 4/5, turn 3 6 damage hexproof and turn 4 helix 4/5 trample? Plus I have all the removal and burn you wish you had. Doesnt matter my life total is like 10 off my own lands, I've dealt 13 to you, and you dealt 7 to yourself.
I'm not saying this deck is good. But meta, right now? It actually is. The meta is literally a pissing contest for talliness, and this goes tall and taller each turn, while they scramble to keep up. And your life total doesnt matter at all when all the best decks are going to kill you in 2 consecutive turns, regardless of if you are at 16 or 6.
Again, Id like to fit a helix in there. Maybe over a path, though path seems too good to pass up with all the tallness.
Playing a bunch of creatures with Rhonas the Indomitable that aren't 4/xs seems like a subpar time. If I'm activating him just to turn him on, I'm guessing that I'm losing.
It's certainly cool to have another Kessig which might work with a Traverse the Ulvenwald shell but I'd work from the ground up for a Rhonas build rather than just sticking him in a lot of the current shells.
This is one of the reasons if you can reliably turn on e1 and baby flip gideon you are doing something right. Also goyf. I dont think Id see him as more than a 2-3 of, likely 2 of either. Because of legendary. Geist is a 4 of because he is often sucidal in combat. God doesnt die easily, plus youll want other 3 dropz that enable him.
Hey guys ! Right now im testing 3x Rhonas the Indomitable and he is awsone ! Im pretty sure he can make the zoo climb in the meta. He give a hard early pressure and late game he still very strong.. i recommand you guys to give a try!
Thats what I am going to try at least. Geist is weird with E1, it gives it a 3rd and 4th counter... eventually, But it also plays really baddly with Rhonas the Indomitable. Pretty sure if I want to run that guy Id need to put snaps away for grim flayer too, and... somehow fit in 2 more sorceries or tar fires or something. I don't love knight in this, but it also plays better with Rhonas the Indomitable, and E1. Baby gideon plays well with Rhonas the Indomitable regardless, and when you have 8 nacatls in the deck you can actually play E1 like its suppose to be played, and with now 12 nacatls in the deck you can play him and hes freakin' amazing.
Seriously, I have heavy testing on that. 8 Nacatls makes E1 a super star, and 12 1 drops make gideon a super star. Its like a domino effect.
I still fully expect this to be WORSE than Blitz zoo. Because of the off colorness you will lose games you shouldnt. But again, Im using the off color to fill in holes in our game. We lack a second 1 cmc to turn on E1 (and be good mid game, Regade does 2 damage, kird ape doesnt cut it.) we lack 2 drop 5/6 (maybe harshmentor. Need to see how it pans out.) 3 drop that doesnt die and wins games (Rhonas the Indomitable still needs enablers that we currently dont have so he cant count yet, see 2 and 3) and were fine on 4 drops. Rampager is a house in the right deck.
This is all theory crafting. A perfect zoo would be a tier 1 green deck that is aggressive constant fair value. We've been slowly getting there. E1 and baby gideon are all amazing. Rampager too. The last 1 drop, complimentary 2 drop to goyf, and a complimentary 3 drop have been missing. Wizards tends to print more midrange stuff or bliz aggro though rather than see our niche.
Anyways, the above looks fun. thats my main reasoning.
Dunno. Never played it. Never got to it before I switched to dredge as my main deck. I assume racing is a decent option. You have removsl for interupting them. Bolts and push for dorks, push and path and flames for the rest. Aven seems like a good side to mess with lands. If you are running stuff like vslerious stance there too.
I cut geist against decks that have good blocks for him. Which generally means Im bringing in removal or life gain.
3 flames was more than enough. Like I said, powerful, yes, but its power used to be that it was doom blade or 5 damage. With push I need blade less.
Ran this last FMN because there was growing to be too many surgical extractions for my taste. Dredge at locals is like affinity, got to have a second deck for when you win too much and everyone thinks about you when they build boards.
I mostly wanted to have fun, and honestly show off to Miles the Jund player. Everyone at the store jokes about my binder being stocked, I'm either rich in cardboard, or poor as hell by trading it all away. So I needed to show off the rainbow. I also was mostly there to have fun this time around and cool with losing.
Some of the thoughts: With so much push and bolt and path in modern now, I wanted 4 geist. The deck doesnt have legs unless it can dodge some removal. I was cool with 3 knights, because seriously, they just hit the bin, or are useless as you get aggroed down. Theres nothing better at 3 cmc, smiter is bad without delver or control, brimaz is dope but too color heavy, and Savage Knuckle blade is wrong colors. You wanna go T1/T2 Stomping ground, godless shrine, so he cant be used, without messing up my flow.
The core is pretty simple to figure out. Play a good curve and play the best cards ever printed at those cmcs. I only have 3 flames, because with push I found I need to burn them out at the end A LOT less. My creatures do a lot more work when the path is clearer than it used to be. Realistically, bird could be cut for a 3rd snap or a 4th flame or a 3rd push. I just like bird because it allows for better board stuff and smooths out the "***** I hit only 1 land" hands. This deck actually can operate on a land and bird well enough for a while.
Plus turn 2 geist and 3 rhinos are game breaking.
Round 1 vs Burn
T1 guide makes me say "crap." I will concede its not even a real match game 1. Pros of this deck, its like tier 1 strong. Seriously, is. Cons, its not Tier 1 vs "all" the field. I hurt myself too much and I die. I played it out. Its been a while, so I know I lose the game, but I wanna remember how to play real magic like drawing cards not dredging and how to order my lands for future rounds. I block and hope for rhinos. I get to a point where I can pick the turn I lose, 3 or 4. I have a rhino in hand, and I can shock myself to put out a knight to block, leaving myself dead for a bolt, but alive to attacks, and swing tempo back in my favor with rhino, and if he draws a blank. The odds of me winning by not hurting myself off land are worse via drawing the game out, so I go for it and die to bolt.
I don't think it was wrong, sometimes you need to remember you have to win the game, not just survive a turn longer to guarantee losing.
Side: -4 Geist, +1 IoK, +1 feed the clan, +2 Timely reinforcement. Geist does nothing in this match, cept hurt me more. IoK helps, but is Meh, the other ones are game winning.
I turn 1 dork, he bolts my face, I turn 2 push his guide, and he plays the Eidolon. I tank for a second and go "well, I have to shock myself but hey, no damage off rhino and it blocks." So I rhino. He bolts me twice (shocking himself) and passes, no attacks. I draw rhino and go "Oh, the second rhino". He realizes if he just keeps bolting me he be in swing back range, attacks. I know whats up so I take the 2 and he just passes. I draw rhino 3 and he concedes.
I know thats really gross, but so is dying on turn 3 last game.
So game 3 happens, and I cant keep up with turn 1 and 2 swift spears. I just dont get the blocks quick enough and dont draw any of the board.
I wish I had one more card for burn. I dunno what it would be. I could do another IoK instead of seize, and that helps but doesnt solve the problem. I think this matchup is just "Look its bad, get over it."
0-1
Round 2 vs Lantern control
Guy named William I think. Hes a cool dude. Very on top of his triggers. An actual competent lantern player, I dont mind those ones. He gets a really fast bridge, and I think for a while. I have a hand full of removal, and hes chilling at 15 with life gain. Id need flames, bolts, snaps and rhinos to win. Maybe even a few nobles. I dont have that board, so I shuffle. I know lantern's real strong point is knowlage. Im not playing a net deck, so I have more advantage in not showing him information. As we board he even tells me that was smart because hes having trouble boarding. Cool guy, willing to admit that stuff.
-2 push, -3 path, -1 knight, +1 decay, +2 stoney, +2 discard, +1 explosives. Geist can sometimes get under early bridges, so its better than knight. Rhinos expensive and rarely attacks but it least it burns. The game boils down to do as much damage before bridge and either blow it up or burn them out.
Game 2 I started with a noble, then goyf and nacatal, then rhino before bridge, he concedes, openly saying that he could survive a few turns but winning is unlikely and hed rather have time for game 3 to lock down and win and not draw. Good dude.
Game 3 I get a turn 2 seize off and toss the bridge. I figure I got this in the bag... then he draws another bridge. Damn. I got enough burst left in the tank to drop him to around 8, but not finish him, and he is locked and tutoring every turn. Its over. I concede. I could draw it out, but it always felt dirty to me. Hes been nothing but nice the whole time I known him.
Overall this match woulda been better if one of those stony was grudge at least. But it was swingy to say the least. I had the clear cut win if he didnt top deck that single out even one swing would have done him in. So all in all, the deck could have won, but variance killed it.
0-2
Round 3 vs Miles Jund
Awesome I get to mess around with this kid. Hes actually a really good jund player, and always trying to learn how to be better. So its genuinely fun playing him. I get a fast start with nacatl, and he goes to discard on his turn. He sees how aggressive it is and on turn 2 allows a trade with my nacatl to his goyf, finishing it with bolt. I land my goyf and a noble. He gets out 2 more goyfs and a confidant (lol. all the goyfs.) but hes taking alot of damage to put up the team. So I play the rhino he didnt know about and basically 1 up him. I see his life at 9, and see my bolt I drew and think, I can attack, he blocks with confidant, swings back and I lose to bolt. So I just sit on the defensive and let his confidant rack damage 3 turns, go alpha and finish him off.
He did miss a key interaction that was the force my block a turn early and kill off my rhino and goyf with K command. I told him I actually expected a bolt or something there and would have only goyf blocked so I could rhino him early and bolt him a turn earlier to win. Good thoughts, but I suspected them already. Im not great at playing and math... but baiting and reading cards in hand based on board I can do well.
-2 knight, +2 Aven. This matchup is already in my favor. I grind better. Every discard, land, or bad kill spell late game he draws I get threats. Even my lands turn into snap flames. Aven is just nice to have here, and the flash to mess with his removal maths is better than knight. Geist doesnt die to removal, and his blocks are usualy dead to paths or push.
Game 2 I play 2 fast nacatls, as he messes with discard seeing my geist and knowing its totally over if it lands. I get out a bolt and goyf, then draw snap and snap flames with a full attack to win. Easy and quick.
We play a game 3 because he wants to know if the deck is a bad matchup or if hes playing wrong. I get out a quick nacatl, goyf, flames, snap flames. Its a bad matchup for jund, this deck wins short game and long game. The only way jund wins is a fast goyf and I have no removal.
1-2
Round 4 vs Green Stompy, William
I lost to this kid last week with dredge and he keeps making fun of me. Youre like 13! Stop. It cuts deep. Anyways. Game 1 just goes down in flames. Not for me. Trample and haste beats just beat the crap out of me. Damn, its gunna be a repeat. It was litterally like a 2 minute game. This deck is so weak to aggro, but kicks everyone else's ass. I mighta been fine if I waited on the path and respected the very real vines of vastwood.
Turn 1 dork, turn 2 goyf and bolt his dude. This little kid is dying over the fact I played goyf, like screaming like its black lotus. God I wish I could be that young again. Thanks William, you made me feel awesome. I forgive you for making fun of me. Anyways, I play rhino next turn, and start to smash while holding back blocks. He draws all pump and its over.
Game 3 I have a hand full of land, bird, and explosives. This is so no bo... but Maybe? Look I got lands, good enough. I draw a bon fire and go "yep, sure were doing this. I play explosives on 1 turn 1, then birds after draw a bolt knowing that I can bolt, bonfire if he over extends and use the explosives as a late game card, and do that. Delaying the wipes until they do the most and when my bird doesnt matter. I get a rhino down eventually, path stangle root, and wait until I have huge dudes to win the late game. I finish with flames (grant it, at that point I also had bolt and snap so I had a lot of ways to win.) He showed off 4 rancors in hand, and I was like "Yep. Stompy falls apart if half the deck is pump and the other half, creatures are dead."
2-2
Overall
This deck could have easily been 3-1, but Im cool with 2-2. Its not amazing, but it was fun. Again, strong against alot of the field, but not all of it, which is why its not so played.
If I was to make a change, Id wanna find a space for 1 helix at least. Maybe thats worth killing the bird for. Itd feel nice to have a little more life gain to off set land damage. Outta the sideboard I'd wanna cut stony. It was mostly for tron and affinity, but I think Ive got enough affinity hate, and grudge is better vs lantern while still bein alright vs affinity and trons. maybe cut a seize for IoK, just to have a 5th vs burn, and still hits all the earlyish game stuff I might want, since I am the aggro deck so I should be closer to winning by turn 3 than they are.
Less moving pieces and evasion, which is relevant. Also, the 3rd combo piece is tutorable with Knight or other cards.
Also lets you play fewer bad cards (read: Quillspike).
Both Vizier and Druid are really bad cards, so you'd have to be able to fight through the fact that you'd be playing 8x duds. 12 duds? I don't know about that.
Right, Thats what I mean, Its wayyyyyy better in azban company. I know we ache for combos (hey, now theres baby gideon and you can't lose gideon ) But its gotta also be on cards that arent bad on their own.
@Lantern: I agree about the deck names, I'd rather just say Gruul or Big zoo as those are descriptive names. It does seem that the new Gruul is the closest thing to a zoo aggro deck that weve had for a while. Big zoo seems more midrangey. I've been on the RUG Delver train for a while and am seeing some of the same problems zoo seems to have now. The other fair matchups tend to rock BGx, so they have the best removal vs our small beaters. I think this could be why Gruul zoo does so well as they don't care about one guy dying. They just swing for a ton on turn 3 and youre dead. If we want to play a normal curve zoo list, you've got to deal with Abrupt Decay and Fatal Push. These two cards can easily stop attack assault leaving our bolts hopelessly out of range of their big goyfs and Shadows. In RUG, I love Hooting Mandrills as it has a big body and cannot be hit by either of those. Also, what about Mirran Crusader? I was thinking of cards that have pro-black, and this does plus protection from everything Shadow does except Tarfire which I don't think is a 4-of. It also has double strike and with bolt becoming less relevant against the field, an x/2 is less of a problem. Thoughts?
No clue. Ive never used crusaders without a way to buff them. Hooters is great, but you need burn to back him up, and its tougher to justify that in a deck like zoo which uses less and less burn, and no utility.
Just cards are missing for it. Reality that suchs, but is the truth. So you gotta play what works, rather than force what doesnt.
With the new Revolt Zoo seeming to be blindingly fast, is there still a reason to be on the big zoo plan? It seems that this Gruul zoo varient is pretty much what Lantern was playing before Nacatl got unbanned. Play tons of small dudes and goldfish turn 3-4. What does bigger zoo offer, unless you just like playing with fatties, which I understand
Crap you got a memory.
Yeah, If I still played zoo regularly Id play greedy domain zoo or fast blitz naya. I am actually this week for FMN. Grave hate is finally catching up now I've 3-1ed or 4-0ed two months in a row. Gotta remind em zoo was my jam.
I don't "love" gruul zoo, and revolt zoo is more blitzy then gruul was. I also hate the millions of names given to zoo... Alot of times its just the same deck with a new tag channel fireball or someone gave it to look "new" and make you watch a video.
My issue with this blitz naya is how all in it is, and the basic makeup of the deck (36 creatures, and like, 7 spells). My love of zoo was the curving out and building a pressure cooker of a game, not go as fast as possible. I'm not denying that this is the current best approch to the deck with the card pool given to us. I just dont love it. The cards on curves to make a "classic" zoo are just missing.
They are there if you go 5 colors however. Giest, snaps, Rhino. It brings its own slew of problems, namely land issues and pain. Which means what it gains over blitz it loses via other weaknesses. If New Gideon, Rhonas the Indomitable, or Harsh Mentor pans out it goes a good way to helping doing a good zoo without color bleed, but its still lacking a good nacatal 5-8 to enable baby gideon and E1. But it does pad out the need of more good 2 cmc and a good final 3 cmcs in naya.
I feel like I'm always complaining, even though I always root the deck on.
If he was 4 mana then he may be able to compete with Arlinn Kord, but Arlinn comes down faster and does similar things to your side of the board that you want it to (and more if you want to flip her).
"She"
Sorry, always annoys me as a pet peeve when I see people refer to females as he, or plants as he, it's she and it. That's my English background kicking in.
No big! I just am a keyboard justice warrior for pieces of cardboard gender rights
On your topic. Yes. The space this girl fights for is Dragons on the top end for big zoos that were going down that route. Shes pretty damn weird for a zoo deck tho. Flash and haste is a really odd combo... but Id assume for zoo it means "cast this with haste now, or eot if the opponent runs counters." Options are good I suppose.
I get Her ability is suppose to be like, a 6 mana flash and untap a blocker... But in modern, she'll be the biggest blocker you have... So that basically just leaves her to be aggressive. And shes likely better than the top end dragons in zoo. She attacks really well being a double striker with haste, blocks well too since vigilance and double striker. plays nice with stuff like knight and lavamancer.
Overall pretty niche. If you wanted a dragon, you probably want her now instead.
Thats more than the odd "Maybe we test this 2 drop who seems ok?" normal sets give Zoo. Intresting how the graveyard themed deck has really bad grave tools, but an oddly number of high playable beater creatures. I guess Amonkhet, if you arent dead, means your pretty freakin' buff.
Yep yep! I didnt mean to come off harsh if I did. We've done this twice in the past 7 years and its ended up poorly. If zoo ever broke tier 1, and there was a build that was hands and feet better then the rest, wed make the split since the list would be highly tuned and "figured out" by the hivemind.
Its been talked about, and its still an overwhelming no. Zoo uses pretty much the same core no matter what. It also doesnt have enough wins under its belt to justify a split based on color like grixis shadow vs jund shadow. All the threads would be in deck creation, not tier 2. Lastly, it isnt popular enough. All the threads would be never really posted on. As it stands this thread gets about 1 post a day.
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Siege Rhino
// 9 Instant
3 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
// 22 Land
4 Arid Mesa
2 Forest
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
1 Hallowed Fountain
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Steam Vents
3 Tribal Flames
// 3 Artifact
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Grafdigger's Cage
// 2 Creature
2 Aven Mindcensor
// 2 Enchantment
2 Stony Silence
// 2 Instant
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Feed the Clan
// 6 Sorcery
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Timely Reinforcements
Ran this again at FMN, because well, I was running around and this was build from the week before last, which was prerelease. I didnt manage to quick fix a helix in there, but /shrug.
Round 1 vs Goblins
I was paired vs a kid who was new to modern, and he had this half burn half goblin deck. I dont have a good burn matchup, but I opened a game 1 hand of like all paths and pushes with a tarmo, so I wiggled out of it pretty easily.
I sided in 2 timely, 1 feed the clan, 1 explosions, 1 bon fire outting 2 knight and 4 geist.
He landed a turn 2 great revel, and with my explosions being way too slow here... yeah it didnt work.
Game 3 I had smooth mana dorks, blockers, and then rhinos to coast me the win.
1-0
Round 2 vs Bant Eldrazi
Ben ran a little cold tonight. He mulled in both games, but I had pretty powerful hands regardless, playing really good curves, and path to exile back up, so I made a quick game 1 with nacatl, goyf, and knight, pathing out the last blockers (tokens and mana dorks) to secure the win.
Sided in 2 Mind Censor to hopefully mana screw, 2 seize for big things, taking out 2 geist, 2 bolt.
He mulled again, which I'm sure helped me. I seized turn 1 with my slow hand, and took away collected alliance, so he hand no real great early game. Still my hand was a little slow and managed to start to get close to stabilizing against me with drowners of hopes, to tap down big knights and rhinos. Still, I was fine enought to get him to 6, which he cracked a fetch, so flames was enough for the win, between my fetch and knight he couldnt ghost it.
2-0
Round 3 vs Grixis Death's Shadow
My buddy Alex, and I felt good going into this. This was basically a "better" death shadow deck in these matchups. Game 1 I went in pretty hard with a nacatl and goyf. He lowered his life total to the point where I rhinoed him close to death, rhinoed him again to 3, then topped a bolt for the win.
I sided in 2 aven and 1 decay, taking out a bolt and 2 knights. I wanted geist since once it is in play it would win.
I open a great hand of noble, goyf, 2 geist. He seizes my geists away, sad panda. Still it lets me take an early lead while nacatls and goyfs do their job. He gets to the point where I have a rhino on board with a nacatl, he has a shadow thats huge, and I leave rhino up to chump and we go into the stall. However I have burn and snaps, and he has to whirl his gears every turn to ensure he doesnt die to what ever creature I played that turn. eventually I go all in with my nacatl and rhino to force him to waste mana on the removal spell so I can get a safe flames in for the win (he was at 2, bolt woulda done it too, or any removal spell.)
3-0
Round 4 vs G/W Hatebears
Game 1 goes really long. I have all the snaps in the world and dont draw a removal spell, so his tireless tracker eventually draws him the game. For what its worth, the deck still managed to fight really well consitering he drew close to 5-6 extra cards than me that game. Life total was 1 to 1.
Ined Aven Mindcensor, Bonfire of the Damned, explosions, out geist. Thought about cage, but decided against it. He doesnt run combos I assumed. So aven is just better.
Game 2 was a little fun. I opened a hand with a mana dork turn 1, then turn 2 I bolted a bird to slow him, while playing a nacatl and a tapped land, then I push snap bolted things in combat for unfair trades on my end (3 for oneing him) then after he regained his footing, snap pushed flames his team again, so nacatls 4 damage just got there.
Game 3 was pretty fast. I turn 1 nacatled, turn 2 goyfed, turn 3 knight, turn 4 rhinoed, turn 5 rhinoed and bolted. Just a perfect curve and his dudes were just tiny.
4-0
Overall:
Really good, and felt pretty easy to win. At no time, cept vs the burn goblins, did I feel pressured I wasnt going to win. When most of the modern meta is trying to do a pissing contest over the tallest guy (death shadow, bant eldrazi, jund's tasigur, tron's smashers) this deck just WRECKS. Its weakness is aggro, but those have been really hard hit by the decks I'm mentioning, so this just litterally one ups all the things they do.
Why settle for prepping and protecting a turn 4 7/7, when I can have a turn 1 3/3, turn 2 4/5, turn 3 6 damage hexproof and turn 4 helix 4/5 trample? Plus I have all the removal and burn you wish you had. Doesnt matter my life total is like 10 off my own lands, I've dealt 13 to you, and you dealt 7 to yourself.
I'm not saying this deck is good. But meta, right now? It actually is. The meta is literally a pissing contest for talliness, and this goes tall and taller each turn, while they scramble to keep up. And your life total doesnt matter at all when all the best decks are going to kill you in 2 consecutive turns, regardless of if you are at 16 or 6.
Again, Id like to fit a helix in there. Maybe over a path, though path seems too good to pass up with all the tallness.
Oh yeahhhh
Attack for a bunch so they feel the need to block and run push and bolt. Thats my plan
This is one of the reasons if you can reliably turn on e1 and baby flip gideon you are doing something right. Also goyf. I dont think Id see him as more than a 2-3 of, likely 2 of either. Because of legendary. Geist is a 4 of because he is often sucidal in combat. God doesnt die easily, plus youll want other 3 dropz that enable him.
My.thoughts
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Experiment One
2 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4 Bone Picker
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage/Grim Flayer
2 Knight of the Reliquary/Geist of Saint Traft/Rhonas the Indomitable
3 Siege Rhino
3 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
// 4 Sorcery
4 Tribal Flames
// 20 Land
4 Arid Mesa
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Breeding Pool
Thats what I am going to try at least. Geist is weird with E1, it gives it a 3rd and 4th counter... eventually, But it also plays really baddly with Rhonas the Indomitable. Pretty sure if I want to run that guy Id need to put snaps away for grim flayer too, and... somehow fit in 2 more sorceries or tar fires or something. I don't love knight in this, but it also plays better with Rhonas the Indomitable, and E1. Baby gideon plays well with Rhonas the Indomitable regardless, and when you have 8 nacatls in the deck you can actually play E1 like its suppose to be played, and with now 12 nacatls in the deck you can play him and hes freakin' amazing.
Seriously, I have heavy testing on that. 8 Nacatls makes E1 a super star, and 12 1 drops make gideon a super star. Its like a domino effect.
I still fully expect this to be WORSE than Blitz zoo. Because of the off colorness you will lose games you shouldnt. But again, Im using the off color to fill in holes in our game. We lack a second 1 cmc to turn on E1 (and be good mid game, Regade does 2 damage, kird ape doesnt cut it.) we lack 2 drop 5/6 (maybe harshmentor. Need to see how it pans out.) 3 drop that doesnt die and wins games (Rhonas the Indomitable still needs enablers that we currently dont have so he cant count yet, see 2 and 3) and were fine on 4 drops. Rampager is a house in the right deck.
This is all theory crafting. A perfect zoo would be a tier 1 green deck that is aggressive constant fair value. We've been slowly getting there. E1 and baby gideon are all amazing. Rampager too. The last 1 drop, complimentary 2 drop to goyf, and a complimentary 3 drop have been missing. Wizards tends to print more midrange stuff or bliz aggro though rather than see our niche.
Anyways, the above looks fun. thats my main reasoning.
I cut geist against decks that have good blocks for him. Which generally means Im bringing in removal or life gain.
3 flames was more than enough. Like I said, powerful, yes, but its power used to be that it was doom blade or 5 damage. With push I need blade less.
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Siege Rhino
// 9 Instant
3 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
// 22 Land
4 Arid Mesa
2 Forest
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
1 Hallowed Fountain
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Steam Vents
3 Tribal Flames
// 3 Artifact
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Grafdigger's Cage
// 2 Creature
2 Aven Mindcensor
// 2 Enchantment
2 Stony Silence
// 2 Instant
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Feed the Clan
// 6 Sorcery
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Timely Reinforcements
Weird and different than ya'll play, EHHHHH?!?!
I mostly wanted to have fun, and honestly show off to Miles the Jund player. Everyone at the store jokes about my binder being stocked, I'm either rich in cardboard, or poor as hell by trading it all away. So I needed to show off the rainbow. I also was mostly there to have fun this time around and cool with losing.
Some of the thoughts: With so much push and bolt and path in modern now, I wanted 4 geist. The deck doesnt have legs unless it can dodge some removal. I was cool with 3 knights, because seriously, they just hit the bin, or are useless as you get aggroed down. Theres nothing better at 3 cmc, smiter is bad without delver or control, brimaz is dope but too color heavy, and Savage Knuckle blade is wrong colors. You wanna go T1/T2 Stomping ground, godless shrine, so he cant be used, without messing up my flow.
The core is pretty simple to figure out. Play a good curve and play the best cards ever printed at those cmcs. I only have 3 flames, because with push I found I need to burn them out at the end A LOT less. My creatures do a lot more work when the path is clearer than it used to be. Realistically, bird could be cut for a 3rd snap or a 4th flame or a 3rd push. I just like bird because it allows for better board stuff and smooths out the "***** I hit only 1 land" hands. This deck actually can operate on a land and bird well enough for a while.
Plus turn 2 geist and 3 rhinos are game breaking.
Round 1 vs Burn
T1 guide makes me say "crap." I will concede its not even a real match game 1. Pros of this deck, its like tier 1 strong. Seriously, is. Cons, its not Tier 1 vs "all" the field. I hurt myself too much and I die. I played it out. Its been a while, so I know I lose the game, but I wanna remember how to play real magic like drawing cards not dredging and how to order my lands for future rounds. I block and hope for rhinos. I get to a point where I can pick the turn I lose, 3 or 4. I have a rhino in hand, and I can shock myself to put out a knight to block, leaving myself dead for a bolt, but alive to attacks, and swing tempo back in my favor with rhino, and if he draws a blank. The odds of me winning by not hurting myself off land are worse via drawing the game out, so I go for it and die to bolt.
I don't think it was wrong, sometimes you need to remember you have to win the game, not just survive a turn longer to guarantee losing.
Side: -4 Geist, +1 IoK, +1 feed the clan, +2 Timely reinforcement. Geist does nothing in this match, cept hurt me more. IoK helps, but is Meh, the other ones are game winning.
I turn 1 dork, he bolts my face, I turn 2 push his guide, and he plays the Eidolon. I tank for a second and go "well, I have to shock myself but hey, no damage off rhino and it blocks." So I rhino. He bolts me twice (shocking himself) and passes, no attacks. I draw rhino and go "Oh, the second rhino". He realizes if he just keeps bolting me he be in swing back range, attacks. I know whats up so I take the 2 and he just passes. I draw rhino 3 and he concedes.
I know thats really gross, but so is dying on turn 3 last game.
So game 3 happens, and I cant keep up with turn 1 and 2 swift spears. I just dont get the blocks quick enough and dont draw any of the board.
I wish I had one more card for burn. I dunno what it would be. I could do another IoK instead of seize, and that helps but doesnt solve the problem. I think this matchup is just "Look its bad, get over it."
0-1
Round 2 vs Lantern control
Guy named William I think. Hes a cool dude. Very on top of his triggers. An actual competent lantern player, I dont mind those ones. He gets a really fast bridge, and I think for a while. I have a hand full of removal, and hes chilling at 15 with life gain. Id need flames, bolts, snaps and rhinos to win. Maybe even a few nobles. I dont have that board, so I shuffle. I know lantern's real strong point is knowlage. Im not playing a net deck, so I have more advantage in not showing him information. As we board he even tells me that was smart because hes having trouble boarding. Cool guy, willing to admit that stuff.
-2 push, -3 path, -1 knight, +1 decay, +2 stoney, +2 discard, +1 explosives. Geist can sometimes get under early bridges, so its better than knight. Rhinos expensive and rarely attacks but it least it burns. The game boils down to do as much damage before bridge and either blow it up or burn them out.
Game 2 I started with a noble, then goyf and nacatal, then rhino before bridge, he concedes, openly saying that he could survive a few turns but winning is unlikely and hed rather have time for game 3 to lock down and win and not draw. Good dude.
Game 3 I get a turn 2 seize off and toss the bridge. I figure I got this in the bag... then he draws another bridge. Damn. I got enough burst left in the tank to drop him to around 8, but not finish him, and he is locked and tutoring every turn. Its over. I concede. I could draw it out, but it always felt dirty to me. Hes been nothing but nice the whole time I known him.
Overall this match woulda been better if one of those stony was grudge at least. But it was swingy to say the least. I had the clear cut win if he didnt top deck that single out even one swing would have done him in. So all in all, the deck could have won, but variance killed it.
0-2
Round 3 vs Miles Jund
Awesome I get to mess around with this kid. Hes actually a really good jund player, and always trying to learn how to be better. So its genuinely fun playing him. I get a fast start with nacatl, and he goes to discard on his turn. He sees how aggressive it is and on turn 2 allows a trade with my nacatl to his goyf, finishing it with bolt. I land my goyf and a noble. He gets out 2 more goyfs and a confidant (lol. all the goyfs.) but hes taking alot of damage to put up the team. So I play the rhino he didnt know about and basically 1 up him. I see his life at 9, and see my bolt I drew and think, I can attack, he blocks with confidant, swings back and I lose to bolt. So I just sit on the defensive and let his confidant rack damage 3 turns, go alpha and finish him off.
He did miss a key interaction that was the force my block a turn early and kill off my rhino and goyf with K command. I told him I actually expected a bolt or something there and would have only goyf blocked so I could rhino him early and bolt him a turn earlier to win. Good thoughts, but I suspected them already. Im not great at playing and math... but baiting and reading cards in hand based on board I can do well.
-2 knight, +2 Aven. This matchup is already in my favor. I grind better. Every discard, land, or bad kill spell late game he draws I get threats. Even my lands turn into snap flames. Aven is just nice to have here, and the flash to mess with his removal maths is better than knight. Geist doesnt die to removal, and his blocks are usualy dead to paths or push.
Game 2 I play 2 fast nacatls, as he messes with discard seeing my geist and knowing its totally over if it lands. I get out a bolt and goyf, then draw snap and snap flames with a full attack to win. Easy and quick.
We play a game 3 because he wants to know if the deck is a bad matchup or if hes playing wrong. I get out a quick nacatl, goyf, flames, snap flames. Its a bad matchup for jund, this deck wins short game and long game. The only way jund wins is a fast goyf and I have no removal.
1-2
Round 4 vs Green Stompy, William
I lost to this kid last week with dredge and he keeps making fun of me. Youre like 13! Stop. It cuts deep. Anyways. Game 1 just goes down in flames. Not for me. Trample and haste beats just beat the crap out of me. Damn, its gunna be a repeat. It was litterally like a 2 minute game. This deck is so weak to aggro, but kicks everyone else's ass. I mighta been fine if I waited on the path and respected the very real vines of vastwood.
-4 geist, -1 Knight +1 explosives, +1 decay, +2 Timely, +1 feed the clan +1 bonfire.
Turn 1 dork, turn 2 goyf and bolt his dude. This little kid is dying over the fact I played goyf, like screaming like its black lotus. God I wish I could be that young again. Thanks William, you made me feel awesome. I forgive you for making fun of me. Anyways, I play rhino next turn, and start to smash while holding back blocks. He draws all pump and its over.
Game 3 I have a hand full of land, bird, and explosives. This is so no bo... but Maybe? Look I got lands, good enough. I draw a bon fire and go "yep, sure were doing this. I play explosives on 1 turn 1, then birds after draw a bolt knowing that I can bolt, bonfire if he over extends and use the explosives as a late game card, and do that. Delaying the wipes until they do the most and when my bird doesnt matter. I get a rhino down eventually, path stangle root, and wait until I have huge dudes to win the late game. I finish with flames (grant it, at that point I also had bolt and snap so I had a lot of ways to win.) He showed off 4 rancors in hand, and I was like "Yep. Stompy falls apart if half the deck is pump and the other half, creatures are dead."
2-2
Overall
This deck could have easily been 3-1, but Im cool with 2-2. Its not amazing, but it was fun. Again, strong against alot of the field, but not all of it, which is why its not so played.
If I was to make a change, Id wanna find a space for 1 helix at least. Maybe thats worth killing the bird for. Itd feel nice to have a little more life gain to off set land damage. Outta the sideboard I'd wanna cut stony. It was mostly for tron and affinity, but I think Ive got enough affinity hate, and grudge is better vs lantern while still bein alright vs affinity and trons. maybe cut a seize for IoK, just to have a 5th vs burn, and still hits all the earlyish game stuff I might want, since I am the aggro deck so I should be closer to winning by turn 3 than they are.
Right, Thats what I mean, Its wayyyyyy better in azban company. I know we ache for combos (hey, now theres baby gideon and you can't lose gideon ) But its gotta also be on cards that arent bad on their own.
No clue. Ive never used crusaders without a way to buff them. Hooters is great, but you need burn to back him up, and its tougher to justify that in a deck like zoo which uses less and less burn, and no utility.
Just cards are missing for it. Reality that suchs, but is the truth. So you gotta play what works, rather than force what doesnt.
Crap you got a memory.
Yeah, If I still played zoo regularly Id play greedy domain zoo or fast blitz naya. I am actually this week for FMN. Grave hate is finally catching up now I've 3-1ed or 4-0ed two months in a row. Gotta remind em zoo was my jam.
I don't "love" gruul zoo, and revolt zoo is more blitzy then gruul was. I also hate the millions of names given to zoo... Alot of times its just the same deck with a new tag channel fireball or someone gave it to look "new" and make you watch a video.
My issue with this blitz naya is how all in it is, and the basic makeup of the deck (36 creatures, and like, 7 spells). My love of zoo was the curving out and building a pressure cooker of a game, not go as fast as possible. I'm not denying that this is the current best approch to the deck with the card pool given to us. I just dont love it. The cards on curves to make a "classic" zoo are just missing.
They are there if you go 5 colors however. Giest, snaps, Rhino. It brings its own slew of problems, namely land issues and pain. Which means what it gains over blitz it loses via other weaknesses. If New Gideon, Rhonas the Indomitable, or Harsh Mentor pans out it goes a good way to helping doing a good zoo without color bleed, but its still lacking a good nacatal 5-8 to enable baby gideon and E1. But it does pad out the need of more good 2 cmc and a good final 3 cmcs in naya.
I feel like I'm always complaining, even though I always root the deck on.
"She"
Sorry, always annoys me as a pet peeve when I see people refer to females as he, or plants as he, it's she and it. That's my English background kicking in.
No big! I just am a keyboard justice warrior for pieces of cardboard gender rights
On your topic. Yes. The space this girl fights for is Dragons on the top end for big zoos that were going down that route. Shes pretty damn weird for a zoo deck tho. Flash and haste is a really odd combo... but Id assume for zoo it means "cast this with haste now, or eot if the opponent runs counters." Options are good I suppose.
I get Her ability is suppose to be like, a 6 mana flash and untap a blocker... But in modern, she'll be the biggest blocker you have... So that basically just leaves her to be aggressive. And shes likely better than the top end dragons in zoo. She attacks really well being a double striker with haste, blocks well too since vigilance and double striker. plays nice with stuff like knight and lavamancer.
Overall pretty niche. If you wanted a dragon, you probably want her now instead.
The sets been nice to zoo though. Samut, Voice of Dissent is ok, Harsh Mentor is either terrible or a staple, Rhonas the Indomitable could be the 3 mana beater the deck ha been waiting for, as is Gideon of the Trials being a smiter with extras, Nissa, Steward of Elements is worth looking at.
Thats more than the odd "Maybe we test this 2 drop who seems ok?" normal sets give Zoo. Intresting how the graveyard themed deck has really bad grave tools, but an oddly number of high playable beater creatures. I guess Amonkhet, if you arent dead, means your pretty freakin' buff.