Agreed with mike, steel overseer needs to die on sight and any early ravaged won't be able to survive a roast even with modular shenanigans. Master of etherium also often falls within range, at least for a while. Every once in a while I take out a key signal pest or something. What's really essential is being able to use the roast in order to save a bolt/tarfire in hand to protect against big cranial/ravaged swings or manlands.
Bog in itself is pretty weak. Getting what is essentially colorless mana from it after is nice and it has synergy with deprive but it can't be the only interaction you have against grace decks. For living end you're most likely going to have to counter 1 living end and then on your following turn when you play bog, they 99% of the time living end again in response which you obviously must also counter. Generally that leaves them pretty much out of gas or at least gives you a window to win. I think my delerium access is pretty good. I lose to end because I don't have a second counter or don't find traverse/bog but not really because traverse is dead. Curator is cute here but isn't a huge game changer, although only jungle weaver/macabre blocks it so if they have to cast end on their turn you could get a chance to bash for four.
Yeah you're right about collar and grapeshot. Only if they don't have a baral and/or PIf would the storm be low enough to matter. I will say that they seem to always go for the empty the warrens plan with me, hoping to spit out a bunch of tokens early when I'm establishing a board. I don't always bring in collar though, I previously only ran one firespout and brought collar in as a third way to fight empty the warrens but no longer.
At least online hollow one is everywhere so delver creatures are seeing more play than ever and they help fill out the removal suite in a ton of other matchups so while its not a perfect card its the card we need IMO.
Collar may be less valuable now because there is less eldrazi but it doubles down as a powerful anti burn piece, let's you race/wall a fat Slippery Bogle, race etched champion, lets your snapcaster trade with a 7/7 champion of the parish, and really gives you a counter to so many aggressive draws in the format that would usually crush a tempo deck like this. Not many other cards can save you from a multiple hollow one+angler+Phoenix start, but collar can.
No problem! If I skip any you would want to know about just say so.
I've been trying some sideboard tweaks as I've been seeing more of the meta. The MD right now is: -1 remand +1 deprive.
Sideboard is: -1 deprive -1 vendilion clique +1 roast +1 bedlam reveler. Hurts the big mana matchups and combo but way too many fair decks are being played right now and roast is now a premium sideboard piece IMO.
Burn:
-4 Delver
-2 snag
-1 curator
+1 basilisk collar
+1 feed the clan
+2 roast
+2 firespout
+1 EE
-1 deprive
-2 mana leak
-2 tarfire
-1 thought scour
These decks are hard to board against because the burn is so good even tarfire sometimes gets the nod which makes it hard to include other interaction. Their best threats costs one so mana leak isn't great here. Also a ton of variance between lists make this plan very loose and deck list specific.
I don't have this written down anywhere so I don't always follow this exact plan and oftentimes people have unique lists that call for unique setups. Sometimes I'll leave in an extra counter, or leave in knuckleblade, or bring in feed the clan against aggro, or take out a cantrips to include more interaction- all depending on individual opponents lists- but this is a good place to start for each matchup. I did it quick so sorry for any errors.
@mnesci Just curious, why don't you like it against Shadow variants?
I agree RR is rough but at least it's usually always castable when moon is out.
@mike
I understand we have to do more than draw cards, but to resolve a 3/4 prowess body that gets you three extra cards is the exact thing that puts you ahead of their removal spells to close out game. If you cast reveler, drawing a goyf/mandrills and a counterspell, the fair deck suddenly has to find THREE(!) removal spells to bring the board back to neutral and that's just assuming the third card is dead or a land.
The formula to beat these decks is simple. It's no riddle. If you have more creatures+counters than they have removal+blockers, you win. Gaining a critical mass of cards is the only real way have of making that more efficient/dooable aside from hitting three lands and drawing nothing but gas all game but that's not going to happen. Playing a threat like huntmaster that eats a bolt, and then the token gets walled by a threat we struggle to remove, can help but nothing ends these games faster than accumulating more threats/answers. Besides, how many 4 mana spells can 17-18 land decks run before it's a hinderance?
I've been thinking about Chandra and it is a gamewinner but struggles to consistently remove goyf and falls short of the delve creatures. When you're ahead on board and drop it it's very hard to lose but we absolutely struggle to kill these exact threats and I fear too often you have to choose between activating it once and losing it to combat damage. I have no experience with it to speak of, though, so I could be wrong.
I got a few matches in with Shaper's Sanctuary, its almost impossible for mardu to beat on turn one except perhaps some Lilliana action but if you don't have it in the early game it can be too little too late as a topdeck late and in order to guarantee it early you need to run multiples which eats up way too much sideboard space. It's very powerful though.
@ObNate happy to! I love discussing this archetype
@mikefon
I didn't think of pitching dead cards with Chart. When it isn't CA it's two cards in the yard for Mandrills, that's nice. I didn't notice the synergy of aftermath and subtypes which is cool but if I'm going to play a two mana bounce spell I gotta go with Simic Charm here I think.
I do like huntmaster a lot, I feel like basilisk Collar is more efficient at gaining me life and taking care of problem creatures and that's probably what I would cut if I really wanted to run a huntmaster for tutor-ability.
Trinket Mage is something I only tried a few times and it was more cute than anything. I like having a tool box though.
Unrelated;
What does everyone think of shaper's sanctuay for removal heavy matchups? I brought it up when spoiled but I feel like the meta has shifted more towards path, bolt, push than ever. Hell, ten new Mardu decks are 4 pyro, 4 reveler, 4 lingering souls, lands, and a thousand removal spells. If played on turn one it's very realistic to expect to draw 5+ cards off it in a game, and if they arnt killing your creatures then they quickly get buried. How many cards would this have to draw in a game to be the best turn one play? 6? 8? 10? I really feel like the sky is the limit for this card in the right matchups. So often I'll have my opponent remove 7 or 8 creatures over the course of a game and those decks naturally put themselves into a topdecking position meaning you're hitting gas while they just try to stay alive. Helps mitigate damage from almost every playable PW except LoTv(4 mana chandra, little jace, 3 mana Gideon, nahiri, the other 3 mana Lilli, etc) by nullifying the advantage gained on their targeted abilities.
And I know this topic has been heavily discussed but it seems it's fallen out of favor, is no one trying to implement Bedlam Revelerin these lists anymore? I'm trying to gear my sideboard more towards this surge of 'fair decks' that has occurred as of late and having that tutor option can be backbreaking. Also considering swapping my feed the clan for Pulse of Murasa to give me another card to help me grind out those sort of decks. Obviously great to return a Reveler or Snap but having an extra goyf+land+life seems pretty good too.
Curator has more than carved out its role for me and earned its spot. I would never run two and I actually cut a bauble for it so I'm my mind that's the slot it occupies. In games where you only want A few threats out early and then ride the tempo game to victory with interaction (tron,affinity, ad nauseum, storm, etc) curator cycles away for a mere one mana making the opportunity cost to run the card very low. Its these matchups there we struggle to get a creature subtype in the yard as well which is synergystic for our delerium/goyf needs. It's purpose for which it is included is for matchups where we must increase our threat density to fight through removal, and it's been incredible. Anytime a midrange or control deck gets you in topdeck mode the 4 mana cost for the most part doesn't matter because you're out of cards anyways. The body is exactly what the deck wants, a bigger version of delver that comes pre-flipped. Decks often try to wall our attackers with bodies we can't remove easily like goyf or delve creatures in order to buy them time to draw into removal, curator gives you a traverse target that can start clocking them again right away. It's also immune to grave hate, bolt proof, hard to fatal push, decay proof, and most importantly triggers ferocious all the time. The only real instance if a-synergy is the delver flips but like I said I run it over bauble so that's the same either way.
I think it's quite viable to still be running 3 mandrills but to do you must run at least 3 thought scour, and it's my own personal philosophy that the fewer scours we need, the better the list runs, (I said more about that a few pages back I believe. Additionally, in instances where we draw multiple mandrills early traverse can quickly become a dud and traverse IMO is the main appeal to the deck. Mandrills is aggressive but when it neutered your own goyfs, traverse, and snapcaster too many of these grave taxing bodies can have diminishing returns. When you don't nuke your own graveyard traverse is finding you more ferocious enablers anyways. Also with three mandrills I don't believe one could justify gnarlwood dryad and with only two mandrills he has been amazing. Trample is great but doesn't help you with any creature with toughness > 4. Desthtouch is evasion it's own right, helping punch through damage on an otherwise clogged board similar to Delver or Curator. It has one less power and doesn't trigger ferocious but in a format of death shadow goyf angler and reality smasher being able to tutor for a deathtouch blocker has been clutch countless times. All that being said it gives you one more way to start the game with a threat on the field taxing removal immediately or giving you a more ways to play under Lilliana of the veil or the three mana Gideon. Similar to delver it's a 1/1 that often doesn't become a 3 power creature until turns 3/4 but has the upside potentially explosive starts with multiple one drops.
I've run many versions that have had at least one huntmaster in the side but I think he just doesn't do enough to justify his inclusion right now. Firespout is my favorite card in the sideboard and bringing him in alongside it always felt awkward. The midrange decks have no shortage of ways to remove him and leaving behind a 2/2 is 'value' but it's not gamebreaking for a 4 mana investment to eat a bolt and leave behind a 2/2. That's about the same as playing a kitchen finks. If left unchecked, certainly he is a game winner but in my mind is too fragile. Instead my traverse package is a little more diverse with an additional threat in curator and a pseudo removal spell in the dryad. Clique is actually the card I put in over huntmaster because tron/titanshift is a much harder matchup than any midrange/aggro decks and clique has seemed necessary to shore up those matchups, but is great against midrange as well as long as they don't have lingering souls.
I have not tried chandra but I think I should. My main issue is that if this slot was something you could tutor for with traverse, wouldn't that make the deck more efficient?
I like chart but feel like this deck has a ton of slot devoted to card selection as is. I truthfully havnt tried to intigrate it. How has it been?
Also if pithing needle has proven worth it inclusion then trinket Mage could make an excellent sideboard package for you to find with traverse through trinket Mage. It currently finds bauble, explosives, and needle but it would be easy to include a pierce for eldrazi/burn in Basilisk collar or a piece of grave hate with tormods crypt. Btw, bojuka bog has been awesome for me. A little slow and fairly average as a hate effect but always seems to be just enough to give me a window to win.
No problem; I believe I posted a similar list a few months ago but took a long break to play commander on MTGO instead. Just coming back to modern again but I've been been grinding friendly leagues and have yet to do worse than 3-2 in ~10 attempts or so.
I know at first glance the numbers can seem a bit weird but a lot of work has been put in here and these choices are all calculated. The remand and knuckleblade are the only real flex slots here IMO but as of now I wouldn't be change a thing. The mardu variants that have popped up seem like an uphill battle so I've been mulling things like Kira, great glass spinner a shot as a traverse target but I'm unsure if it's necessary as of yet. Feel free to ask questions.
@blood moon for burn; it's been discussed here before and I've tried it several times but with less than great results. I usually lose to burn because I didn't answer their early creatures, not because I can't stop burn spells. It can certainly steal games though, I can definitely see that.
It's no secret that removing creatures with toughness greater than three is this deck's Achilles' heel, a four damage instant speed one mana removal spell would amazing for the deck but I don't think we've found it. Despite all the natural drawbacks of damaging your own creature, the real issue here is that you can't use it on turn on at all, and it's very difficult to use on turns two/three without it being a 2 for 1 that leaves you without a threat in the early game. I think lightning axe is actually better here even though it's always a 2 for 1 that you probably don't want to flashback with snapcaster simply because you can use it turn one/two with no restrictions and 5 damage takes care of the majority of threats in the format.
With all that being said, flame slash and roast are the two options I would always pick first to fill that role. 5 damage from roast answers most eldrazi every delve creature and usually goyf, it's hard to beat that consistency.
Ive found eldrazi tron quite tolerable. If you put them on their backfoot early and don't get chalice'd they usually can't race you. I specifically run Basilisk Collar in my board for this matchup and it's an absolute bomb once resolved. Only an active Endbringer or several Reality Smashers in a row can help them race you. Additionally I run Traverse which means I can easily search up Magus of the Moon and get a bunch of free wins. Having gnarlwood Dryad as a one of tutor target has done a lot of work for me here as well. I also don't run shoal which seems bad here so that could be a major difference.
It's at least cool to see some interest and streams. It's kinda sad how incredibly few quality finishes this deck has been able to generate in the past year. I used to constantly check mtggoldfish to see other people's lists for inspiration but almost all the semi recent finishes are...mine I guess most people are choosing shadow and angler over Tarmogoyf and mandrills.
The ovinize creature is neat. Small body but evasive and makes any creature die to tarfire. Most decks we would bring this in against remove this too easily I think. Though against a low removal deck like Eldrazi, it would be a nightmare for them all game.
Curious Obsession is an interesting way to make A flipped Delver trigger Ferocious. Seems good on a mandrills too.
Vendetta? I wonder which one of us takes things too personally...hmm...
Don't @ me if you can't refute the actual claim I'm making. If someone agrees with my point overall (i.e. That we are going to play scour over opt) but wants to tell me I'm somehow wrong because of the way I said it? That's just annoying dude. How do you not see that?
In the years I've been following the thread, over had 7(!) users PM me to continue discussion of the deck there because they felt like this place was hostile. Frankly if your concern is generating positive discussion, then you should try to Being less dismissive. You shoot people down like you made this deck. Go back to page on every and check out the post at the bottom. Oh yeah, that's me, telling you about this new tech called simic charm. Everyone that has been posting here built this thing. You should try to hearing people out more.
Have to agree that opt is better than sleight here, simply because you can cast opt in response to delver triggers for some nice card selection. Of course, Traverse is better than both of those cards. Opt is strictly better than thoughtscour but we can't not run it unfortunately. I don't think I'll be playing with opt.
Heres my entire post for reference. You didnt like that I used the word 'strictly'- got it, but trying to tell me a cantrip that offers card selection is worse than one that doesnt because of this imaginary term in velocity? interesting. Frankly i'm not sure how anything else you've said applies to my 'argument', which was really more of a quick summation of my opinion on opts playability here and less of an arguement, as you claim. I don't really care to discuss magic theory with you, particularly if it doesnt even pertain to this deck.
The purpose? I was saying opt is a more powerful magic card than scour. I stand by that.i can't speak for other modern archetypes but Scour is a crutch we lean on, not a tool we utilize. So even not 'in a vacuum' my statement is still correct, no matter how you analyze it. We play scour because we have to, and scry 1 is superior to mill 2. That's the truth. But yes, scour will still see more play than opt, I never said it wouldn't.
Well seeing as how you're arguing against points I'm not making I have to disagree with you there.
when you reveal a dead card it's true you were going to get a chance to scry it anyways, but just because delver flips an instant or sorcery doesn't mean that card isn't dead. Flip your delver, send the dead mana leak to the bottom. Not waiting for the delver trigger means you're stuck with that reveal. Minor, but relevant.
@aston I just mean in a vacuum it's a more powerful card than scour. We don't play in a vacuum. Thought Scour is only a card because of Delve. Otherwise you're mostly just paying a mana to draw a card. The day this deck gets a new printing that allows us to go in a direction away from thought scour, I'll do just that. reach through mists isn't a good magic card, lets not pretend it is.
Either way I'm not even arguing that the card is playable, I even blatantly stated I won't be playing it. So I'm not sure why I'm the straw man here because I mentioned instant speed 'draw a card' is relevant with delver. (It is)
Have to agree that opt is better than sleight here, simply because you can cast opt in response to delver triggers for some nice card selection. Of course, Traverse is better than both of those cards. Opt is strictly better than thoughtscour but we can't not run it unfortunately. I don't think I'll be playing with opt.
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Bog in itself is pretty weak. Getting what is essentially colorless mana from it after is nice and it has synergy with deprive but it can't be the only interaction you have against grace decks. For living end you're most likely going to have to counter 1 living end and then on your following turn when you play bog, they 99% of the time living end again in response which you obviously must also counter. Generally that leaves them pretty much out of gas or at least gives you a window to win. I think my delerium access is pretty good. I lose to end because I don't have a second counter or don't find traverse/bog but not really because traverse is dead. Curator is cute here but isn't a huge game changer, although only jungle weaver/macabre blocks it so if they have to cast end on their turn you could get a chance to bash for four.
Yeah you're right about collar and grapeshot. Only if they don't have a baral and/or PIf would the storm be low enough to matter. I will say that they seem to always go for the empty the warrens plan with me, hoping to spit out a bunch of tokens early when I'm establishing a board. I don't always bring in collar though, I previously only ran one firespout and brought collar in as a third way to fight empty the warrens but no longer.
At least online hollow one is everywhere so delver creatures are seeing more play than ever and they help fill out the removal suite in a ton of other matchups so while its not a perfect card its the card we need IMO.
Collar may be less valuable now because there is less eldrazi but it doubles down as a powerful anti burn piece, let's you race/wall a fat Slippery Bogle, race etched champion, lets your snapcaster trade with a 7/7 champion of the parish, and really gives you a counter to so many aggressive draws in the format that would usually crush a tempo deck like this. Not many other cards can save you from a multiple hollow one+angler+Phoenix start, but collar can.
Traverse really is awesome. Makes so many one land hands keepers that would otherwise be questionable and has so much late game power.
I've been trying some sideboard tweaks as I've been seeing more of the meta. The MD right now is: -1 remand +1 deprive.
Sideboard is: -1 deprive -1 vendilion clique +1 roast +1 bedlam reveler. Hurts the big mana matchups and combo but way too many fair decks are being played right now and roast is now a premium sideboard piece IMO.
Burn:
-4 Delver
-2 snag
-1 curator
+1 basilisk collar
+1 feed the clan
+2 roast
+2 firespout
+1 EE
Affinity:
+2 revelry
+1 grudge
+2 firespout
+2 roast
+1 basilisk collar
+1 EE
-1 curator
-1 savage knuckleblade
-1 vapor snag
-1 serum visions
-1 deprive
-2 mana leak
-1 stubborn denial
-1 mishra's bauble
Living End:
+1 bog
+1 basilisk collar
+2 roast
-2 spell snare (lol...)
-2 tarfire
Storm:
-2 snag
-1 curator
-1 knuckleblade
+2 firespout
+1 EE
+1 bog
(Collar is also an option here over a cantrip as empty the warrens can't beat you and it's plausible to put yourself out of grapeshot range)
Dredge:
+1 bog
+2 firespout
+1 basilisk collar
+1 feed the clan
-2 mana leak
-1 deprive
-1 curator
-1 savage knuckleblade
Bogles:
+2 destructive revelry
+1 EE
+2 blood moon
+1 magus of the moon
+2 firespout
-2 vapor snag
-2 tarfire
-1 curator
-1 savage knuckleblade
-2 lightning bolt
Jund:
+1 Bedlam Reveler
+2 blood moon
+2 roast
+1 EE
-2 tarfire
-3 stubborn denial
-1 deprive
Abzan:
+2 blood moon
+1 magus of the moon
+1 EE
+2 roast
+1 basilisk collar (they don't have K command so it races souls/rhino)
+1 reveler
-2 tarfire
-1 deprive
-3 stubborn denial
-2 mana leak
-1 lightning bolt
Grixis/jund/four/five color shadow:
+2 roast
+1 EE
+2 blood moon
+1 reveler
-1 deprive
-2 mana leak
-2 tarfire
-1 thought scour
These decks are hard to board against because the burn is so good even tarfire sometimes gets the nod which makes it hard to include other interaction. Their best threats costs one so mana leak isn't great here. Also a ton of variance between lists make this plan very loose and deck list specific.
Mardu:
+2 firespout
+1 EE
+2 roast
+1 basilisk collar
+1 bedlam reveler
-2 vapor snag
-1 deprive
-2 mana leak
-2 tarfire
Tron:
+2 blood moon
+1 magus
+2 revelery
+1 grudge
-1 curator
-1 knuckleblade
-2 tarfire
-2 spell snare
Eldrazi tron:
+2 roast
+2 moon
+1 magus
+1 collar
+2 revelry
+1 grudge
-3 stubborn denial
-2 spell snare
-2 tarfire
Humans/merfolk:
+2 revelery
+2 spout
+1 EE
+2 roast
+1 collar
+1 magus
-3 denial
-2 leak
-1 deprive
-1 curator
-1 savage knuckleblade
-1 vapor snag
uwr/uw/grixis
+2 blood moon
+1 reveler
Grixis gets both roasts, jeskai and WR get both destructive revelry so 5 total slots out/in
-2 tarfire
-3 bolt
If UW has queller or Geist this changes a bit.
KKC/ad nauseum/lantern:
-2 snag
-2 tarfire
-1 curator
+2 revelry
+1 grudge
+1 magus
+1/2 blood moon
Lantern/nauseum gets EE and drops 1 or 2 spell snare.
BR hollow one:
+2 roast
+1 bog
+2 revelry
+1 grudge
+1 collar
-1 deprive
-2 mana leak
-1 curator
-2 stubborn denial
-1 savage knuckleblade
Titanshift:
+2 moon
+1 grudge
+2 revelry
+2 roast (courser/baloth)
-2 tarfire
-1 curator
-1 knuckleblade
-3 bolt
CoCo:
-1 deprive
-1 curator
-1 knuckleblade
-2 stubborn denial
-1 vapor snag
+2 roast
+2 firespout
+1 EE
+1 destructive revelry (RIP and Choke)
Death & taxes:
+2 roast
+2 spout
+1 EE
+2 revelry
+1 grudge
+1 collar
+1 magus
-3 stubborn denial
-1 deprive
-2 snag
-2 mana leak
-1 knuckleblade
-1 spell snare
I don't have this written down anywhere so I don't always follow this exact plan and oftentimes people have unique lists that call for unique setups. Sometimes I'll leave in an extra counter, or leave in knuckleblade, or bring in feed the clan against aggro, or take out a cantrips to include more interaction- all depending on individual opponents lists- but this is a good place to start for each matchup. I did it quick so sorry for any errors.
I agree RR is rough but at least it's usually always castable when moon is out.
@mike
I understand we have to do more than draw cards, but to resolve a 3/4 prowess body that gets you three extra cards is the exact thing that puts you ahead of their removal spells to close out game. If you cast reveler, drawing a goyf/mandrills and a counterspell, the fair deck suddenly has to find THREE(!) removal spells to bring the board back to neutral and that's just assuming the third card is dead or a land.
The formula to beat these decks is simple. It's no riddle. If you have more creatures+counters than they have removal+blockers, you win. Gaining a critical mass of cards is the only real way have of making that more efficient/dooable aside from hitting three lands and drawing nothing but gas all game but that's not going to happen. Playing a threat like huntmaster that eats a bolt, and then the token gets walled by a threat we struggle to remove, can help but nothing ends these games faster than accumulating more threats/answers. Besides, how many 4 mana spells can 17-18 land decks run before it's a hinderance?
I've been thinking about Chandra and it is a gamewinner but struggles to consistently remove goyf and falls short of the delve creatures. When you're ahead on board and drop it it's very hard to lose but we absolutely struggle to kill these exact threats and I fear too often you have to choose between activating it once and losing it to combat damage. I have no experience with it to speak of, though, so I could be wrong.
I got a few matches in with Shaper's Sanctuary, its almost impossible for mardu to beat on turn one except perhaps some Lilliana action but if you don't have it in the early game it can be too little too late as a topdeck late and in order to guarantee it early you need to run multiples which eats up way too much sideboard space. It's very powerful though.
@mikefon
I didn't think of pitching dead cards with Chart. When it isn't CA it's two cards in the yard for Mandrills, that's nice. I didn't notice the synergy of aftermath and subtypes which is cool but if I'm going to play a two mana bounce spell I gotta go with Simic Charm here I think.
I do like huntmaster a lot, I feel like basilisk Collar is more efficient at gaining me life and taking care of problem creatures and that's probably what I would cut if I really wanted to run a huntmaster for tutor-ability.
Trinket Mage is something I only tried a few times and it was more cute than anything. I like having a tool box though.
Unrelated;
What does everyone think of shaper's sanctuay for removal heavy matchups? I brought it up when spoiled but I feel like the meta has shifted more towards path, bolt, push than ever. Hell, ten new Mardu decks are 4 pyro, 4 reveler, 4 lingering souls, lands, and a thousand removal spells. If played on turn one it's very realistic to expect to draw 5+ cards off it in a game, and if they arnt killing your creatures then they quickly get buried. How many cards would this have to draw in a game to be the best turn one play? 6? 8? 10? I really feel like the sky is the limit for this card in the right matchups. So often I'll have my opponent remove 7 or 8 creatures over the course of a game and those decks naturally put themselves into a topdecking position meaning you're hitting gas while they just try to stay alive. Helps mitigate damage from almost every playable PW except LoTv(4 mana chandra, little jace, 3 mana Gideon, nahiri, the other 3 mana Lilli, etc) by nullifying the advantage gained on their targeted abilities.
And I know this topic has been heavily discussed but it seems it's fallen out of favor, is no one trying to implement Bedlam Revelerin these lists anymore? I'm trying to gear my sideboard more towards this surge of 'fair decks' that has occurred as of late and having that tutor option can be backbreaking. Also considering swapping my feed the clan for Pulse of Murasa to give me another card to help me grind out those sort of decks. Obviously great to return a Reveler or Snap but having an extra goyf+land+life seems pretty good too.
Curator has more than carved out its role for me and earned its spot. I would never run two and I actually cut a bauble for it so I'm my mind that's the slot it occupies. In games where you only want A few threats out early and then ride the tempo game to victory with interaction (tron,affinity, ad nauseum, storm, etc) curator cycles away for a mere one mana making the opportunity cost to run the card very low. Its these matchups there we struggle to get a creature subtype in the yard as well which is synergystic for our delerium/goyf needs. It's purpose for which it is included is for matchups where we must increase our threat density to fight through removal, and it's been incredible. Anytime a midrange or control deck gets you in topdeck mode the 4 mana cost for the most part doesn't matter because you're out of cards anyways. The body is exactly what the deck wants, a bigger version of delver that comes pre-flipped. Decks often try to wall our attackers with bodies we can't remove easily like goyf or delve creatures in order to buy them time to draw into removal, curator gives you a traverse target that can start clocking them again right away. It's also immune to grave hate, bolt proof, hard to fatal push, decay proof, and most importantly triggers ferocious all the time. The only real instance if a-synergy is the delver flips but like I said I run it over bauble so that's the same either way.
I think it's quite viable to still be running 3 mandrills but to do you must run at least 3 thought scour, and it's my own personal philosophy that the fewer scours we need, the better the list runs, (I said more about that a few pages back I believe. Additionally, in instances where we draw multiple mandrills early traverse can quickly become a dud and traverse IMO is the main appeal to the deck. Mandrills is aggressive but when it neutered your own goyfs, traverse, and snapcaster too many of these grave taxing bodies can have diminishing returns. When you don't nuke your own graveyard traverse is finding you more ferocious enablers anyways. Also with three mandrills I don't believe one could justify gnarlwood dryad and with only two mandrills he has been amazing. Trample is great but doesn't help you with any creature with toughness > 4. Desthtouch is evasion it's own right, helping punch through damage on an otherwise clogged board similar to Delver or Curator. It has one less power and doesn't trigger ferocious but in a format of death shadow goyf angler and reality smasher being able to tutor for a deathtouch blocker has been clutch countless times. All that being said it gives you one more way to start the game with a threat on the field taxing removal immediately or giving you a more ways to play under Lilliana of the veil or the three mana Gideon. Similar to delver it's a 1/1 that often doesn't become a 3 power creature until turns 3/4 but has the upside potentially explosive starts with multiple one drops.
I've run many versions that have had at least one huntmaster in the side but I think he just doesn't do enough to justify his inclusion right now. Firespout is my favorite card in the sideboard and bringing him in alongside it always felt awkward. The midrange decks have no shortage of ways to remove him and leaving behind a 2/2 is 'value' but it's not gamebreaking for a 4 mana investment to eat a bolt and leave behind a 2/2. That's about the same as playing a kitchen finks. If left unchecked, certainly he is a game winner but in my mind is too fragile. Instead my traverse package is a little more diverse with an additional threat in curator and a pseudo removal spell in the dryad. Clique is actually the card I put in over huntmaster because tron/titanshift is a much harder matchup than any midrange/aggro decks and clique has seemed necessary to shore up those matchups, but is great against midrange as well as long as they don't have lingering souls.
I have not tried chandra but I think I should. My main issue is that if this slot was something you could tutor for with traverse, wouldn't that make the deck more efficient?
I like chart but feel like this deck has a ton of slot devoted to card selection as is. I truthfully havnt tried to intigrate it. How has it been?
Also if pithing needle has proven worth it inclusion then trinket Mage could make an excellent sideboard package for you to find with traverse through trinket Mage. It currently finds bauble, explosives, and needle but it would be easy to include a pierce for eldrazi/burn in Basilisk collar or a piece of grave hate with tormods crypt. Btw, bojuka bog has been awesome for me. A little slow and fairly average as a hate effect but always seems to be just enough to give me a window to win.
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Gnarlwood Dryad
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Hooting Mandrills
1 Savage Knuckleblade
1 Curator of Mysteries
2 Snapcaster Mage
Spells:28
4 Serum Visions
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Mishra's Bauble
2 Thought Scour
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Tarfire
2 Vapor Snag
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Spell Snare
2 Mana Leak
1 Remand
1 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Feed the Clan
2 Destructive Revelry
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Deprive
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Roast
2 Firespout
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Blood Moon
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Bojuka Bog
I know at first glance the numbers can seem a bit weird but a lot of work has been put in here and these choices are all calculated. The remand and knuckleblade are the only real flex slots here IMO but as of now I wouldn't be change a thing. The mardu variants that have popped up seem like an uphill battle so I've been mulling things like Kira, great glass spinner a shot as a traverse target but I'm unsure if it's necessary as of yet. Feel free to ask questions.
@blood moon for burn; it's been discussed here before and I've tried it several times but with less than great results. I usually lose to burn because I didn't answer their early creatures, not because I can't stop burn spells. It can certainly steal games though, I can definitely see that.
With all that being said, flame slash and roast are the two options I would always pick first to fill that role. 5 damage from roast answers most eldrazi every delve creature and usually goyf, it's hard to beat that consistency.
Ive found eldrazi tron quite tolerable. If you put them on their backfoot early and don't get chalice'd they usually can't race you. I specifically run Basilisk Collar in my board for this matchup and it's an absolute bomb once resolved. Only an active Endbringer or several Reality Smashers in a row can help them race you. Additionally I run Traverse which means I can easily search up Magus of the Moon and get a bunch of free wins. Having gnarlwood Dryad as a one of tutor target has done a lot of work for me here as well. I also don't run shoal which seems bad here so that could be a major difference.
Curious Obsession is an interesting way to make A flipped Delver trigger Ferocious. Seems good on a mandrills too.
Don't @ me if you can't refute the actual claim I'm making. If someone agrees with my point overall (i.e. That we are going to play scour over opt) but wants to tell me I'm somehow wrong because of the way I said it? That's just annoying dude. How do you not see that?
In the years I've been following the thread, over had 7(!) users PM me to continue discussion of the deck there because they felt like this place was hostile. Frankly if your concern is generating positive discussion, then you should try to Being less dismissive. You shoot people down like you made this deck. Go back to page on every and check out the post at the bottom. Oh yeah, that's me, telling you about this new tech called simic charm. Everyone that has been posting here built this thing. You should try to hearing people out more.
Heres my entire post for reference. You didnt like that I used the word 'strictly'- got it, but trying to tell me a cantrip that offers card selection is worse than one that doesnt because of this imaginary term in velocity? interesting. Frankly i'm not sure how anything else you've said applies to my 'argument', which was really more of a quick summation of my opinion on opts playability here and less of an arguement, as you claim. I don't really care to discuss magic theory with you, particularly if it doesnt even pertain to this deck.
Well seeing as how you're arguing against points I'm not making I have to disagree with you there.
@aston I just mean in a vacuum it's a more powerful card than scour. We don't play in a vacuum. Thought Scour is only a card because of Delve. Otherwise you're mostly just paying a mana to draw a card. The day this deck gets a new printing that allows us to go in a direction away from thought scour, I'll do just that. reach through mists isn't a good magic card, lets not pretend it is.
Either way I'm not even arguing that the card is playable, I even blatantly stated I won't be playing it. So I'm not sure why I'm the straw man here because I mentioned instant speed 'draw a card' is relevant with delver. (It is)