I would definitely prioritize Terminate > Electrolyze > Shadow of Doubt.
I have been an advocate for 3 Terminates from the very beginning even after quite of few kept telling me 3 was 1 to many...
Fact of the matter is; if I could cut something to make room for a 4th; I would.
As for the 4 Serum Visions; IDK how that works... Serum Visions in some matchups easily turns into the best card I play quite often.
I've never had them just sitting...
VS the Affinity Etched Champion + Darksteel Plate; WOW!!! Why isn't all Affinity Players doing that? I haven't ever see that either and that does seem pretty HOSEY.
I mean sure; Cryptic is basically our primary out; if they have no other creatures out then we have CRUEL where they still have to SAC the Champion.
But beyond either of those; we're pretty hosed to that...
I've considered Into the Core; that used to be a great Artifact hoser back in the day...
IDK; I peg you (GURU) to be a very competent player and pilot of the Grixis Cruel deck; is it possible that the combination just caught you off guard once?
And now that you know about it; you could easily play it different and it wouldn't be so bad?
I think that's something to consider... I'd love to hear your thoughts on that?
what do you think of this card? pyromancers goggles
it is a potential 2 cruel ultimatum in turn 6
I saw it; and I think it's really cute... but I don't think it's where I want to be.
Others might find it useful and interesting and worth a try; but def not me.
Too many Kolaghan's Commands seeing play... the thing is; I rarely ever want to tap out on Turn 5 as it is...
And if I do tap out on Turn 5; I would rather play Keranos... Tapping out on Turn 5 for this Artifact doesn't seem super great; although Tapping out on 5 for this gives us what 2 Lightning Bolts....
But with only 2 Cruels in the deck; I'd only want to run potentially 1 of the Goggles; so how often would we ever get to see the cute combination?
Would it really be worth it at that point?
With that said; are we aloud to talk Origins now? I didn't catch that memo...
Well that depends on what type of cards you are trying to counter with Logic Knot. The eighth counterspell in your deck could be a 1 of Countersquall or some super secret tech like Imp's Mischief.
I think of everything you listed I think I'd most like to fit the Deprive. That also makes me want to try to use a small Tolaria West, Pact of Negation, Slaughter Pact package as well which I have no idea where I would put into the deck, but that's all probably a bit to cute in the end.
One other thing I've really been happy with in my list is a Mainboard Vendilion Clique. I left it in the sideboard for a while, but this guy is still great and I'm not sure why I put him there. The card has been awesome everytime I've cast it, and I couldn't realistically see why we would want it in the board. He is great in practically every match I've played and in a pinch he can even help fix our hand or get rid of a permanent in conjunction with cryptic command. He only feels really poor against lingering souls, but other than that I believe we should have at least one somewhere in the 60 and possibly 2.
Few notes to the latest discussion first before I get into my observations from tonight's Modern Event.
1.) Deprive; hate that card. I like it if we're the NON Cruel List; in fact I like it alot. But because we are working towards CRUELS; I feel it just sets us back too much to be worth while. Otherwise; it's a fantastic Counter; and sure; alot can be said if it's being used as a 1 of for our HARD COUNTER slot; but yea I think I'm going to steer clear of it.
2.) Vendilion Clique; so tonight it felt really really underwhelming; but the thing that stuck out at me is just the fact I get to peek at my Opponents Hand and can catch them Sandbagging Lands trying to BLUFF me or gaining valuable information. So although I do think it's pretty MEH more often then not; it's also GREAT GREAT in a few matchups; but even in the majority of matchups I feel it's MEH; you still get to peek at their hand and gain good information. The thing too is; you don't have to make them discard; take a PEEK; and if you have the cards to deal with what is in their hand; choose not to Discard so they don't cantrip. So although I find it MEH more often then not; at the end of the day it's a great PEEK utility; and it's a 3/1 body. So it really fits fine in alot of my GM1s; and more often then not can be sided out. The matchups where it really shines; it's GREAT!
With those little things being said...
So I didn't get to play last week; but the week before that I won 3-0 and this week I went 2-1.
Here's the list I had; it's a bit older from my CURRENT list; but since I didn't get to play last week; I forced myself to keep the previous version with the Tombstalkers so I could gain that needed data/information.
And I gotta say; I'm glad I did... cuz Tombstalkers and the x2 Mulldrifters proved to be pretty good.
WIN 2-1 ROUND 1 VS Jund Living End Combo
+Really don't remember much about this match; first time I played it; pretty much pegged it immediately for what it was worth.
+I didn't feel like I was never really in control; sure in GM2 I lost; but it was a bit of bad luck with a misplay.
LOSS 1-2 ROUND 2 VS Grixis Control
+It was the standard 3 Gurmag 2 Tasigur 22 Land list.
+It was interesting; the Mulldrifter and Tombstalker proved to be very strong in GM2 and ran away with the game.
+In Game 1 however; we go to about 10 Turns; just going back and fourth; he didn't really do anything that I felt left me out of control... but it got to a point where I needed a CRUEL to restock; and just lost a war of attrition; flooded out a bit.
+In Game 3 I kept a poor hand; he stuck Turn 2 Tasigur. That stuck around for a few turns; never got the Terminates; and finally I did get one but by that point he had the Cryptic Backup.
-We talked after the match; at that point I revealed to him what my deck was "REALLY" about... by this point he just assumed it was a tweek from the Tasigur/Gurmag Control build... but noticed I was running more lands because each game I was sitting on 10 to 12 lands before I died. I showed him the Cruels; so then the Mulldrifters made alot more sence to him. He admitted that Mulldrifters and Tombstalkers were really good VS him; when the Tombstalker finished the game; I had ran him out of Removal and it just got there and ended things quickly. He felt Mulldrifter was really good VS Him because they helped me win the Attrition War in the 2nd game.
-He felt had I not flooded out in GM1; I would of taken Game 1; a single Cruel would of turned the tides big time. In Game 3 with the Turn 2 Tasigur; he admitted that it was a bit lucky and all in all he felt I was more geared to beating his deck.
-IN theory; I agree; if you successfully deal with the Gurmags and Tasigurs; they don't really have much else going for them after that.
+And who knows; maybe I should of played the DIRTY game and brought in my Land Destruction Package VS him??? LOL
WIN 2-1 ROUND 3 VS Mono Black Aggro
+Lost Game 1; just out aggroed me and I didn't keep a great hand.
+Once I saw what I was up against; the sideboard plan was easy.
+Dominated from there...
The person that won tonight was playing BURN; he's the same person I have now beat in about 4 straight matches. 2 weeks ago I went undefeated and he was one of the players I beat.
He beat the Grixis Control player that I lost to.
I talked to the Grixis Control player about the Burn match; and he said it's his worst matchup for sure...
I kind of chuckled as I know that matchup very well; and feel like I have a great matchup VS them now and know how the match has to play out...
I did not share my Burn Matchup notes... #Hater HAHA
So with all this being said; I was going to shift my deck and move away from Tombstalker.
However; although in theory I thought Gurmag would be better; and I was planning to go back to 2 Gurmag and 1 Tasigur and go back to being more of a Hybrid of the Control Version of Grixis while also being CRUEL.
However; I saw enough of Tombstalker tonight that I feel it's solid and I think it'll stay.
So because I'm going to keep Tombstalker; I'm still going to go to a 2/1 split... but instead of going 2 Gurmag 1 Tasigur; and switching it to 2 Tombstalker and 1 Tasigur; I'm actually going to go 2 Tasigur and 1 Tombstalker.
Tasigur ends up eating removal the moment you play it; regardless if you're activating or not.
In our decks; I don't think we really want to focus on activating it too often; I think we activate it when we've cleaned up the GY and are going into the realms of a GRINDY war of attrition match.
So the fact that Tasigur is Cheaper than both Gurmag and Tombstalker; I'd rather run a Tasigur out there early to eat up removal; Kolaghan Command Tasigur back; replay it; to eat up more removal.
Counter the Removal when I can; to the point you know they are all dried out and drop Tombstalker.
Beyond that observation; everything else will stay the same.
Now; I do wonder about only having 7 Cantrips... BUT: I do run 2 Mulldrifters; and I have to say I'm very pleased with it.
I feel it's going to be great in the Control Mirrors; and it's going to give me an edge where most of the other decks are just going to be Cantriping and don't really have alot of DRAW going on.
So I think I can get away with 7 Cantrips.
I pulled the Shadow of Doubt to give me my 2nd Tasigur; I think that's ok.
I think with Shadow of Doubt; once people know you have it; and it's on their radar; they play around it and it becomes less and less good from week to week.
So I think it's going to be one of those cards that I put back into my mainboard 60 once and a blue moon just to keep my opponents honest and guessing.
But ultimately I'd rather something that does MORE VS MORE than Shadow of Doubt.
So there's my observations/opinions from tonight...
Well I think the big downside to Hero's Downfall is the double black could be an issue against blood moon. Also as a lot of our decks are packing less counter magic it also is a real problem if our b/g/x decks drop a Liliana of the Veil and we don't have an answer. Dreadbore is also easily cast because it is the same mana cost as terminate. Sorcery isn't any worse than a double black spell is in a deck that consistently wants to play a double red spell in anger of the Gods into a triple blue spell on turn four.
I think silumgar's command is a solid option, but it's definitely not the answer to an early walker.
Well; my point was is that Liliana of the Veil doesn't seem like a horrible planeswalker against us, obviously if shes left unchecked she is; but that can be said about ANY planeswalker...
So what's the worst that happens...
Let's say they Up Tick; and we Kolaghan's Command it for 2 Damage; take our Turn; and maybe Bolt it? Sure we're spending 2 cards to deal with it; but we also have Mana Leaks that could easily counter it early as well.
I feel the chances are pretty good that we have any 1 to 2 of our Burn spells more often then not to deal with that.
That's why I said for the EARLY walkers; most of them can easily be dealt with via our Burn Spells.
Thus I don't put much stock into a Dreadbore at Sorcery Speed that early and also as a 1 OF.
If I am running 2 Dreadbore; then maybe; but even then I still don't think so... The better 1 of for me is either Downfall or Silumgar's Command, with me leaning more towards the Command.
I mean at the end of the day; Dreadbore isn't horrible either; I think 1 of with any of those 3 cards is pretty solid; but if it were me I'd rather a 1 of between Command or Downfall.
As of now though I still haven't really gone there yet and added any of these cards to my 75.
The scenarios that you are describing are true and fine when we are on the play. I agree that we have mana leak and a few two mana spells that should keep liliana from resolving,but on the draw as a control deck we never want to spend our turn
Answering what our opponent did last turn. That is why dreadbore is good, but feels bad. We can agree that we as the control deck aim to one for one our opponent at worst until we can take over the game via cruel or through a couple two for one shots and an unanswerable threat. It just seems like we are approaching the problem wrong if we are spending two cards to deal with a liliana when we could easily dreadbore her and have some counterspell backup as early as turn 3 whether it be dispel or spell snare. Granted they aren't the best things to leave up, but it still doesn't make it all that much worse than finding room for another 3 drop in our deck. I think if we can just avoid people resolving liliana early then silumgar's command may be the next best choice for dealing with the big walkers,but I hate that it can't actually kill a big creature. Granted it can bounce one, but how far does that get us if it happened to be a Thragtusk or a Primeval Titan? I may be wrong, but I believe dreadbore isn't as bad as you guys claim it to be. I've played it in Grixis when Thundermaw Hellkite was still seeing play in uwr and it was fine... Never great but always solid. I think that we just need to see it for what it is, if it was instant it would be banned for being to powerful but even with how it is I'd say it's a solid 3.8 out of 5.
And this is why I chose you to colaborate with privately too. LOL
Very valid points!
Although I still think Downfall or Command are the better "1 OFs"; I def wouldn't be disappointed having Dreadbore either.
I think all 3 are fine options for sure...
Again though; I still haven't gone there yet to have any of these 3 in my 75... I think one of my lists I was going to but ultimately cut it.
I have all 3 and just would want to test it I think; cuz I haven't tested a devoted slot to that yet so I can't say 1 way or another at the end of the day.
Well I think the big downside to Hero's Downfall is the double black could be an issue against blood moon. Also as a lot of our decks are packing less counter magic it also is a real problem if our b/g/x decks drop a Liliana of the Veil and we don't have an answer. Dreadbore is also easily cast because it is the same mana cost as terminate. Sorcery isn't any worse than a double black spell is in a deck that consistently wants to play a double red spell in anger of the Gods into a triple blue spell on turn four.
I think silumgar's command is a solid option, but it's definitely not the answer to an early walker.
Well; my point was is that Liliana of the Veil doesn't seem like a horrible planeswalker against us, obviously if shes left unchecked she is; but that can be said about ANY planeswalker...
So what's the worst that happens...
Let's say they Up Tick; and we Kolaghan's Command it for 2 Damage; take our Turn; and maybe Bolt it? Sure we're spending 2 cards to deal with it; but we also have Mana Leaks that could easily counter it early as well.
I feel the chances are pretty good that we have any 1 to 2 of our Burn spells more often then not to deal with that.
That's why I said for the EARLY walkers; most of them can easily be dealt with via our Burn Spells.
Thus I don't put much stock into a Dreadbore at Sorcery Speed that early and also as a 1 OF.
If I am running 2 Dreadbore; then maybe; but even then I still don't think so... The better 1 of for me is either Downfall or Silumgar's Command, with me leaning more towards the Command.
I mean at the end of the day; Dreadbore isn't horrible either; I think 1 of with any of those 3 cards is pretty solid; but if it were me I'd rather a 1 of between Command or Downfall.
As of now though I still haven't really gone there yet and added any of these cards to my 75.
Personally for Planeswalker Removal; I don't care much for Dreadbore simply because it's Sorcery Speed.
The reason Dreadbore is good is because it's only 2 CMC; but honestly the Walkers we would want Dreadbore against aren't the early ones anyways...
The Early walkers our Bolts/Electrolyze/Kolaghan's Commands usually are enough to do the trick if they get through the early counters.
The ones we really want the Planeswalker kill against are the TRON Walkers... IE: the ones that come down and have massive Loyalty to start out.
Like Ugin; Karn mostly...
So I think Dwarf mentioned Silumgar's Command as it provides great other ToolBox utility for our deck; could bounce a Blood Moon for example pretty easily without it being too mana intensive like a Cryptic would otherwise be.
Beyond Silumgar's Command; I like Hero's Downfall as well; because again they're both Instants.
I vote if we do get into a position where we need a Planeswalker hate; and it more then likely is no more than a 1 OF in our shells; then I say Dwarf is spot on and I tip my hat to Silumgar's Command with Hero's Downfall being the next likely choice.
Although I like Dreadbore; I don't think the 2 CMC is really that significant; and so the fact it's also got a 2nd negative going for it by being Sorcery just takes it off the table for me.
Just my opinion about the Walker hate options... for now I haven't quite gone there yet; but I have considered it a few times.
I'd like to make a comment based on MrRotten's Cruel version 3.03, and please assist me if I missed anything on the thread I was away for a while.
I really like this kind of list, something like that is probably what I would play today if I was going to play Cruel Control. The thing is, it goes too close to the new Grixis no ultimatum lists, which is not bad, on the contrary. So I am wondering if it is worth trying, now that all the grixis control decks up their land numbers (22-23), to jam a Cruel Ultimatum in a Grixis control deck (and probably one in the SB for grindy MUs) instead of other win conditions. Maybe it would require some mana tweaking but wouldn't it be worth a shot?
Ym1r; Cruel is absolutely worth it.
Here's what I think is weak about the Grixis Control shells that are NON Cruel Based; where's their stabilizer?
If they run up against any Rogue Decks; or heck; JUND which has been gaining a ton of popularity lately; and the opponent kills their Tasigurs and Gurmags...
Uses Discard to rip Counters out of your hand; then uses Path to Exile; Maelstrom Pulse; Terminates to kill your winconditions; and just rips your hand apart... then what?
The thing I like about Cruel; it's our Wild Card in every matchup; it's the 1 card in our deck that turns the tides in any game; VS any match.
If a Cruel Resolves; our Win% drastically increases; if we resolve the 2nd; even more.
Without Cruels; I feel like the deck is simply a 1 trick pony... which is why I firmly believe I want some semblance of Tasigurs and Gurmags/Tombstalkers in my CRUEL list.
So I've developed my list to be a bit of a Hybrid of Grixis Control; but adding a few more lands and Cruels.
I've been on this plan since the beginning of my development of this deck simply because I remember playing Cruels before; back in the day when it was STD legal; it was a 1 Trick Pony.
Resolve Cruel; WIN.
In Modern; I don't think you want to be a 1 Trick Pony; because then decks can easily hate you out in Modern because there's so many tools at our disposal.
An Example: Blood Moon? Yea; we probably aren't resolving Cruels with a Blood Moon out; sure we have things we can do to deal with Blood Moon; but until we deal with it; what then?
Well I have a whole Tasigur/Tombstalker-Gurmag package; plus Vendilion Clique and Burn. I still have plenty to keep myself busy if someone sneaks a Blood Moon past me. Still plenty of other ways I can win.
Another example; people use Fulminator Mage on me; although it's probably really really bad for me; I still am able to do some things with the DELVE Tasigurs/Gurmags/Tombstalkers.
So to answer your first question; although lengthy; yes I do believe that Cruels are totally worth trying...
As for trying to jam Cruels in a Delver Deck or the 22 to 23 Land Grixis Control decks and building the hybrid going the other way... I wouldn't recommend it.
Alot of people believe that 24 lands is sufficient to run our deck; while I firmly believe we actually want 25 or 26.
I'd be interested to see a 24 land Grixis Control list like Chapin's for example; but having 1 or 2 Cruels in there for the TOP END wild card type of thing... that could be interesting for sure and "COULD" in theory work.
But anything less than 24; I wouldn't recommend it; and would really not expect much.
Something else to consider if you're planning to go the other way on the Hybrid. Taking a Grixis Control shell with approx 22 lands like Chapins; and adding a Cruel or 2.
The issue I have with doing that is you're ALL in on the Tasigur/Gurmag plan; which is not a terrible thing. They are insanely good; and knowing your TOP END is a Cruel or 2; fantastic.
But when you're all in on the Tasigur/Gurmag plan; you're running the Thought Scour package to go along with it.
With Thought Scour you're running the risk of Milling your 1 or 2 Copies of Cruel; now sure that's not a big deal as we run Snapcasters too; but I'd much rather the first Cruel be hitting and available to hit on Turn 7; not on Turn 8 via a Snapcaster Flashback.
So this is why I kind of skimped on the Tasigur/Gurmags a little bit; the Control shells are running about 5 slots for these guys; 3 Gurmags 2 Tasigurs; or something along that range... They are also running the 4 Thought Scours to go with the 4 Visions.
I cut all that out; I kept the Visions cuz they're so good; lowered my number of Tasigurs; added more Answers/Counters/Cantrips/Draw; and added a few more lands with my 2 Cruels.
That's how I got to my list...
I was running a 2/1 Split of 2 Tasigurs and 1 Gurmag; but I recently dropped it down to 1/1...
So far it's been testing fine; but if I ever go back to a 2/1 split; I'll probably do 2 Gurmags and 1 Tasigur instead going forward.
I've been playing around with Tombstalker in the Gurmag slot; and although it's decent enough; 1 CMC does seem to have pretty significant implications.... I may end up going back to Gurmag after the week's Modern events and analyze how Tombstalker performed in place of Gurmag.
Valid rebuttal points across the board; can't/won't argue that.
It's nice when you're debating card choices and giving constructive feedback when both sides of the arguments are valid; because then at that point I don't think either of us is wrong.
I'm intrigued with Logic Knot; I got 2 FOIL ones awhile ago; it's a card I always thought could be good.
BUT: I feel it clashes with Tasigur AND Tombstalker.
So when I gave you the feedback that if you're going for just x1 OF either of those Bigs; I understand why you would do that because I think Logic Knot would ruin it if you ran x1 or more of both.
So I like your 1 of in that Slot; still think you'll get more out of Tasigur; but I like the 1 of because of your Logic Knot choice; I feel like that's a great choice if you go Logic Knot.
One thing with me; I've always got backup decks... one of my backup plans is if I decide Tasigur and Gurmag/Tombstalker aren't needed; then I could honestly cut them from my list; which makes LOGIC KNOT hella good IMO.
Because at that point; the only card we have that wants cards in the GY is Snapcaster; so Logic Knot gets all the rest for DELVE purposes.
I have my FOIL 2; and everytime I see it in lists; I always consider it and mull it over...
But again I do think it clashes if you're running more than 1 slot of the Tasigurs/Gurmags/Tombstalkers.
So I like your direction...
I say def stick to your guns; test it out and share your feedback/report.
I've analyzed the data from MrRotten's thoughts and the general shell of cruel decks, and came up with this.
this deck is a slight tweak of both delver and draw-go Grixis decks, focusing more on Cruel Ultimatum. Kudos to MrRotten for his thoughts on the board wipe spells, and Lil' Bolas for most of the sideboard ideas.
Way back when I started building this deck, I run 3 Think Twice main. As I acuirred more and more cards, I beun cutting them for more flexible spells, like Electrolyze. But the spells seem too good right now, due to Lyze losing efficiency thanks to K Command. I may go back to 2 remands if I see no results in playtest though.
Taking GrixisGuru's thoughts into consideration, I've come to believe 2 discard spells in the side are more than enough, althought im still debating on whether these spells should be Iok or Seize.
FInally, adding 2 Fulminators in the side to company a lone Salt should be enough against Tron. I feel I have an advantage against them game 1, thanks to those 2 Ghost Quarters.
Overall, Im pretty happy with this version, and im gonna give it a try this Friday. Until then, I wanna hear your feedback
I like the tweeks you've made for sure; wish you luck on Friday.
Batterskull:
While I like alot of the tweeks; I'm not going to rehash why I'm not a fan of Batterskull. You know my take; and I've heard yours; and I say if it works for you by all means play it.
Who am I to try and talk someone out of something that works for them... I'm nobody. I love Batterskull; just not IN LOVE with it right now in the current Meta; or atleast my meta.
NO Tasigur:
While I like the Tombstalker; if you're giving yourself 1 Slot for that kind of card; I would absolutely want Tasigur > Tombstalker. If you're only reserving 1 slot for that kind of spell; Tasigur absolutely does so much more. It's ALMOST as good of a beater as Tombstalker; but where Tasigur gets my nod if I had to pick 1 OR the Other; it's in those Grindy Games; or those Games where maybe you're trying to play around a Blood Moon; and you're looking for things to do till you're able to deal with the Blood Moon. Tasigur gives you just an extra utility that I admit I don't always "NEED" but it's so great to have as an OPTION just in case I do need it.
26 Lands:
I have to say; my very very very FIRST list; the one where I compared all the Top Grixis Lists over the last 6 months or so... All the Grixis Lists were Delver, Twin, and regular Control lists via Young Pyromancer, Olivia, Tasigur/Gurmag.... My list before I even posted here in this Forum/Thread...
I ran 26 lands...
Once I added 4 Serum Visions; stayed true to the formula of about 8 to 12 Cantrips; 25 lands feels really really right and good.
Now; don't get me wrong; I'm of the mindset with LANDs/Manabase that More is BEST... When in doubt; run that extra land and scale it back after you get a feel for things.
But I assure you; that's probably only the 2nd thing that we all agree on. 25 Lands seems to be the good place to be.
BUT: I say that while also considering the fact you have mainboarded 2 Ghost Quarters.
While I like Ghost Quarter; I feel it's RISKY in our Deck.
IF: I ran Ghost Quarters; I too would probably want 26 or heck even 27 Lands if I ran Mainboard Ghost Quarters.
BUT: Let's also keep in mind; in a PINCH; if you really really really need say that 3rd SWAMP to get CRUEL colors online; you can Ghost Quarter your own Land to fetch it up.
So although I think you could drop to 25; I think I totally understand your reasoning for being at 26; and because it's Ghost Quarters; I like it and think it's fine.
What I would like to try though; is having 1 or I guess 2 Ghost Quarters Main; being at 25 Lands; and see how well the 4 Serum Visions with all the Cantrips powers you through and helps you fix things up.
Could be too greedy... but yea; if it were me; I'd try it; cut 1 Land and add the 4th Serum Visions.
3 Cryptic:
I've gone back and forth on this one; many times... Sometimes I like it; most times I don't.
I keep adding it; cutting it back...
Drives me nuts... how could I be "SO DISRESPECTFUL" on such a GREAT card....
It bothers me... but definitely for me; 2 I feel is the right number.
It's something to consider... dropping down to 2 Cryptics is not a "horrible" thing...
Counter Package:
I feel this package can differ depending upon the Player; with personal preference being a big factor; while also the players Meta Game being the bigger factor.
So I have zero issue with it...
What I do think is we want about 7 or 8 Counters Total; that would be my only gripe if it was way too high or way to low.
You're at 9; I think that's right about where we want to be at, so no issues there.
Other than those few little points; some of it probably nit picky; sorry... I think it looks really good!
I hope you do well on Friday!
I'm not going to touch the Side because that to me is also very much about the Players Personal Choices; Play Styles; and also Meta Specific.
So I trust that you've done your homework; you def seem to know Modern well and your list so I'm sure it's fine.
I had a Mystical Teachings list I was playing with earlier this week, but I decided it was not my style.
I think the teachings list will get much stronger as WOTC keeps designing with modern in mind.
Very well said!! I don't know if they have officially said this; but it sure as heck does seem to me that the new sets are dripping with cards that have a clear cut impact on the other formats more so than even STD.
I find it interesting cuz in previous past history; it hasn't been so clear cut.
I do think this is definitely a great observation which makes the Teachings statement very valid and true.
Now, like you , I try to design my decks to be as flexible as possible, thus the feeling I didn't have enough reach. In my meta, batterskull receives hate only against my best friend, who plays the good old Jeskai Control. But I always thought Batterskull is the most diverse bomb for Grixis decks. I used to run Wurmcoils in their place but it just dies so easily, if not exiled. I don't like to Tasigur because personally I think he is a little overrated, but, looking at your decklist , Im thinking of trying out Keranos. He seems good enough in my current build, and synergizes well with Serum Visions.
So only issue remaining is my side. Will need to work on that.
I've actually pulled Keranos from my 75... not sure if it's right or wrong yet; I enjoyed having it; but I like the Flexibility of my Turn 5 play more instead of tapping out for Keranos.
IE: Keeping a Cryptic Up and Delving for Tasigur/Gurmag/Tombstalker; or Evoking a Mulldrifter to draw 2 and leaving Counter Magic Up.
So I have dropped Keranos for this week to try some diff thigns out.
As for Tasigur; I'd say TRY IT before you knock it.
I'm guilty of this myself; so it's nothing personal I mean by it... I hated Serum Visions and tried a bunch of things in that slot before I finally tried Serum Visions; now I couldn't ever drop Visions; it's really good for us and CRUEL.
So try Tasigur; try the Gurmag... they are fantastic.
They are good at closing games out; but even more if you resolve the Tasigur with counter backup; then he can start to take a Grindy Game and start creating advantages with his ability to give us a leg up in a grindy game.
Here's where my current list is at this week; I admit I'm trying a few slight tweeks for the sake of seeing how it plays out...
KERANOS:
Now; the reason I pulled Keranos is again simply because I want more Flexibility with my turn 5. I want something that is impacting the game sooner rather than later... Keranos on Turn 5 doesn't yield you any reward till Turn 6; and let's be honest... On Turn 6; if you hit a SPELL; it's only 3 Damage. Doesn't really help us curve to CRUEL. If we hit a Land; sure then we draw the Land and an additional card; which does help us curve to Turn 7 Cruel. To me; that's the path of victory; curving to Turn 7 or 8 Cruel; everything else should support that and or help setup the finish. I also don't feel like Keranos really helps us VS any matchup; he does provide a clock; and does provide support to our path to victory; but I think this could really be almost anything and it would help us more VS more.
CLIQUE:
I've re-added this back to my 60 simply because I feel like this helps me VS More matchups than not.
I'm very comfortable with the Burn and Zoo matchups; I'm getting more comfortable with the CoCo matchups...
I didn't cut anything that helps me stay comfortable with those matchups; but I cut 3 cards from my previous list...
Keranos was 1; the 2nd Jace was another... Clique helps me in the matchups I felt weak to; IE: Twin; Tron; Amulet Bloom; Abzan CoCo Combo decks.
Keranos doesn't do that... a 2nd Jace is pretty bad if you already have the 1st one.
Thus the change...
DAMNATION & ANGER:
This is another new addition to my mainboard; in private Grixis Guru finally got me convinced... it's needed.
VS the CoCo decks and the Elf Decks; absolutely...
Now; the problem is... do we want 2 Damnations? 2 Angers?
I personally love the 1/1 split... I think VS More matchups; Angers are more important simply because of the EXILE clause.
But then there are some situations where Damnations; more specifically the "Can't be regenerated" clause is better.
Either way; I don't want to be drawing more than 1 of either of these; ever...
VS the CoCo Abzan lists; or Elf Lists; easy.. Bring in the 2nd Anger with the 2 Sprays and even the Sudden Death; and you have yourself a great plan VS those decks.
Those are the key changes to my last known list I posted on the Forums.
Prior to making these slight tweeks.
VS Burn; 3 and 0.
VS Elves; 4 and 0.
VS Affinity; 2 and 1.
VS Bogles; 1 and 0.
I haven't played Tron ina while; have never played against Amulet Bloom; and haven't played the Abzan CoCo in any event.
On the side; I'm:
VS Twin; 0 and 2
VS Abzan CoCo; 1 and 2 --> I still chalk this up to me learning the match though; easily should of been 2 and 1.
So I've made the adjustments; and I'm ready to go again this week and see how things go.
With that; there was 1 other key change to my list.
GURMAG VS TOMBSTALKER --> With my list; I don't go all in on Tasigur or Gurmag; never really have... At most I was 2/1 Split; 2 Tasigur and 1 Gurmag; or 2 Gurmag and 1 Tasigur.
With our Cruel lists; we aren't running the FULL ON Thought Scour package and aren't expecting to be playing Tasigurs/Gurmags on Turn 2 like the Grixis Control lists that are picking up alot of HYPE that Chapin Piloted.
So I felt if I'm at a 1/1 Split; then perhaps I could get away with replacing Gurmag with Tombstalker as I believe Tombstalker is the better 1 OF than Gurmag is.
I give kudos to DoULikeMyUlt1m4tuM; in one of his earlier lists he ran Tombstalker; and I was quite interested in giving it a TRY.
I'm there now; trying it out; and so far in Goldfishing and some minor low level testing; I still get Tombstalker out on Turn 4 or 5 with Counter Backup; and his FLYING has proven to be pretty key.
So I'm interested in giving it a test run on Thursday for the first time officially and see how things go.
I have to agree on Bitterblossom card seems bad for us. Vampire Nighthawk eats a bolt, so that is one less bolt going to our face, which is nice.
Agree on Bitterblossom; seeing it in practice with various Grixis Control streamers; I'm not sure I'm sold.
I suppose it could get under Counter magic against like Blue/X Tron; and I suppose it could work VS GR Tron...
And honestly; in the Grixis Control shells where they aren't jamming Cruels like our crazy butts; they don't really have any way to re-coup the life lost like WE do with Cruels later.
But yea; VS Jund = Maelstrom Pulse / Abrupt Decay
VS other Grixis Control NON Cruel matchups; I think it could be pretty good as a way to apply preasure.
VS Delver decks; I like it as creating Chump Blockers Early; and applying pressure after we've dealt with their Delvers.
So IDK; the more I think about it; it's worth a TEST with our Cruel lists... I don't like it in the Non Cruel Control lists; but in our Cruel lists I think it's worth a look.
As for Nighthawks; I'm totally fine if my Burn opponent puts a Bolt on it.... because that's 1 less Bolt we have to deal with; and when we Kolaghan Command Nighthawk back and re-play it; and they have to waste another Bolt? That's now 6 damage we've saved.
I'm a fan of Nighthawks; but I still think I'd rather my Suffer from the Past because I can bring it in VS other decks that like to use their GY while also gaining me some life in the Burn Matchup; and it can also be a finisher in others.
I do like the Nighthawk option though; in private with Grixis Guru this was one of the options I liked out of the full list I listed in our discussion.
MrRotten main problem in your deck is you have too little card draw. Its the reason im not willing to cut either my lyzes or my remands.
As for me though, I took GrixisGuru's thoughts into consideration and in the ned, I find that Iok is still viable, but not so much. So what I thought is:
-3 Iok +3 Serum Visions.
Since I now got sufficient control over my draws: -1 Smother -1 Electrolyze +2 K Command
and finally, i've come to realize tech edge is just too slow for the current meta, so -2 Tech edge +2 Quarter
I still don't like clique that much, but I'll keep using it for now. As for the side, im still pondering whether I should replace the Salts with Mages, and maybe I should cut Threads aswell. But the card still has its uses.
Finally, i've started looking at viable walkers for the deck ( aside from its master ) and Im gonna test Lil' Bolas's Chandra and see how it goes.
Lets make a Cruel meta guys
The interesting thing is; I actually have more Card "Draw" than you do in your latest list...
Yet I don't have enough? Interesting...
Honestly; I think you guys just like to nit pick at me because I'll defend my list and my choices...
I run Mulldrifter and Jace in my list; along with about 9 to 11 Cantrips depending upon the version I play.
Please before you try to do like the rest do and nit pick about me or my list; get the facts... thanks.
As for your list specifically; where have you been the last 10 or so pages?
Not sure I've seen you here before??
But ok; yea let's make a Cruel meta.. lol
The Batterskulls are Terrible depending upon the meta you're playing; we've all pretty much I think agreed about that finally.
So I wouldn't expect them to do much with such a big up tick with Burn and Kolaghan's Commands seeing play unless you don't see that in your meta.
Other than the Batterskulls; I think your list for the most part is fine.
I'd caution the x3 Mana Leak and x3 Spell Snares though; depending upon your Meta; those could be pretty ugly to get depending upon the matchups you're facing.
I've spread out my Counter Package a bit more...
Good luck.
First of all, I would like to apologize, because my thoughts were about DoULikeMyUlt1m4tuM's deck, and somehow I thought of your decklist while posting it. But I get the feeling you do not like constructive feedback anyways.
My list can be found about 10-12 pages back, before the talk about molten rain over Fulminator.
As for Spell Snares and Mana Leaks, I can cut 1 Leak and add another useful counter, but snares are just too good to cut, having so many targets in the current meta.
Finally, Batterskull is the most efficient finisher in the deck, unless you expect to win by casting Cruel over and over every game. I could move one of them into the side, but, like you, I stand behind my choices.
See that's where you're wrong sir; I don't mind constructive criticism when it's warranted and based on factual information.
Your criticism was that my list wasn't running enough Draw; when actually my list runs more draw then most of the lists here.
Because on top of the 9 to 11 Cantrips; I'm running Jace and Mulldrifter in my list to go along with the Cruels.
Where most people don't run any of that and rely solely on the Cantrips and Cruels.
So your criticism was not taken well because it has nothing to do with my list at all; so you're right; didn't take it well at all cuz it doesn't help me.
As for your list 10 to 12 pages back; sorry I must of missed it because of the zillion pages of the Molten Rain VS Fulminator debate that went on... my apologies.
As for the Mana Leak/Spell Snares; keep them; because I could make a case depending upon what's heavy in a certain meta that they're solid to have.
If you deal with a ton of Burn decks for example; or Zoo Decks; or Abzan CoCo decks; I'd say keep them. Those 2 counter spells are great in those matchups.
As for Batterskull; that's fine; if you think it's the "Most Efficient Finisher" in your deck; then that tells me in the meta you're playing there's not a ton of the hate that most others experience.
I have Batterskulls; just pulled them from my list because of the hate I deal with... so neither one of us is wrong.
I for one like to build beyond my meta though and look for better universal things. Nothing wrong with doing that or not doing that... fair enough.
Guys, I wouldn't go crazy about that IQ finish; a quick trip over to google maps followed by a quick city record building plans search tells me that that IQ couldn't possibly have had more than 30 folks show up (and that's pushing it) which means 2-1-1 could have put him in the top 8. Regular IQ's are not a super significant finish--Super IQ's and Elite IQ's have much greater regular participation and more rounds, so those results say a lot more, but for an IQ that small, it's as easy as playing against some budget brew round one, burning out a storm player round two after a quick piece of countermagic or two, losing to a tier one deck, and ID'ing into top 8, then losing in top 8.
Nope; totally agree with this.
When I said it's the first Cruel list to top 8...
I was making the point that it's the first Cruel list in a very long time to Top 8.
I never said it's the "First Ever" to top 8... and although I was clearly excited; you are spot on that you still have to take a IQ's results with a grain of salt.
Gotta consider the matchups; the meta; and how many people were there... how many rounds; etc..
But fact of the matter is; for the most part the meta will have alot of the similar decks that we all have to face and deal with...
So although we should take the result with a grain of salt; I do think my point is still valid that we could take something away from this and draw a conclusion that Cruel Control is a viable Finisher in Modern; and although many believe it'll never be Tier 1; I still think it can be.
MrRotten main problem in your deck is you have too little card draw. Its the reason im not willing to cut either my lyzes or my remands.
As for me though, I took GrixisGuru's thoughts into consideration and in the ned, I find that Iok is still viable, but not so much. So what I thought is:
-3 Iok +3 Serum Visions.
Since I now got sufficient control over my draws: -1 Smother -1 Electrolyze +2 K Command
and finally, i've come to realize tech edge is just too slow for the current meta, so -2 Tech edge +2 Quarter
I still don't like clique that much, but I'll keep using it for now. As for the side, im still pondering whether I should replace the Salts with Mages, and maybe I should cut Threads aswell. But the card still has its uses.
Finally, i've started looking at viable walkers for the deck ( aside from its master ) and Im gonna test Lil' Bolas's Chandra and see how it goes.
Lets make a Cruel meta guys
The interesting thing is; I actually have more Card "Draw" than you do in your latest list...
Yet I don't have enough? Interesting...
Honestly; I think you guys just like to nit pick at me because I'll defend my list and my choices...
I run Mulldrifter and Jace in my list; along with about 9 to 11 Cantrips depending upon the version I play.
Please before you try to do like the rest do and nit pick about me or my list; get the facts... thanks.
As for your list specifically; where have you been the last 10 or so pages?
Not sure I've seen you here before??
But ok; yea let's make a Cruel meta.. lol
The Batterskulls are Terrible depending upon the meta you're playing; we've all pretty much I think agreed about that finally.
So I wouldn't expect them to do much with such a big up tick with Burn and Kolaghan's Commands seeing play unless you don't see that in your meta.
Also; Jund has seen an up tick in the bigger meta game so Maelstrom Pulse and Abrupt Decay are out in heavy numbers too.
Other than the Batterskulls; I think your list for the most part is fine.
I'd caution the x3 Mana Leak and x3 Spell Snares though; depending upon your Meta; those could be pretty ugly to get depending upon the matchups you're facing.
I have been an advocate for 3 Terminates from the very beginning even after quite of few kept telling me 3 was 1 to many...
Fact of the matter is; if I could cut something to make room for a 4th; I would.
As for the 4 Serum Visions; IDK how that works... Serum Visions in some matchups easily turns into the best card I play quite often.
I've never had them just sitting...
VS the Affinity Etched Champion + Darksteel Plate; WOW!!! Why isn't all Affinity Players doing that? I haven't ever see that either and that does seem pretty HOSEY.
I mean sure; Cryptic is basically our primary out; if they have no other creatures out then we have CRUEL where they still have to SAC the Champion.
But beyond either of those; we're pretty hosed to that...
I've considered Into the Core; that used to be a great Artifact hoser back in the day...
IDK; I peg you (GURU) to be a very competent player and pilot of the Grixis Cruel deck; is it possible that the combination just caught you off guard once?
And now that you know about it; you could easily play it different and it wouldn't be so bad?
I think that's something to consider... I'd love to hear your thoughts on that?
I saw it; and I think it's really cute... but I don't think it's where I want to be.
Others might find it useful and interesting and worth a try; but def not me.
Too many Kolaghan's Commands seeing play... the thing is; I rarely ever want to tap out on Turn 5 as it is...
And if I do tap out on Turn 5; I would rather play Keranos... Tapping out on Turn 5 for this Artifact doesn't seem super great; although Tapping out on 5 for this gives us what 2 Lightning Bolts....
But with only 2 Cruels in the deck; I'd only want to run potentially 1 of the Goggles; so how often would we ever get to see the cute combination?
Would it really be worth it at that point?
With that said; are we aloud to talk Origins now? I didn't catch that memo...
Few notes to the latest discussion first before I get into my observations from tonight's Modern Event.
1.) Deprive; hate that card. I like it if we're the NON Cruel List; in fact I like it alot. But because we are working towards CRUELS; I feel it just sets us back too much to be worth while. Otherwise; it's a fantastic Counter; and sure; alot can be said if it's being used as a 1 of for our HARD COUNTER slot; but yea I think I'm going to steer clear of it.
2.) Vendilion Clique; so tonight it felt really really underwhelming; but the thing that stuck out at me is just the fact I get to peek at my Opponents Hand and can catch them Sandbagging Lands trying to BLUFF me or gaining valuable information. So although I do think it's pretty MEH more often then not; it's also GREAT GREAT in a few matchups; but even in the majority of matchups I feel it's MEH; you still get to peek at their hand and gain good information. The thing too is; you don't have to make them discard; take a PEEK; and if you have the cards to deal with what is in their hand; choose not to Discard so they don't cantrip. So although I find it MEH more often then not; at the end of the day it's a great PEEK utility; and it's a 3/1 body. So it really fits fine in alot of my GM1s; and more often then not can be sided out. The matchups where it really shines; it's GREAT!
With those little things being said...
So I didn't get to play last week; but the week before that I won 3-0 and this week I went 2-1.
Here's the list I had; it's a bit older from my CURRENT list; but since I didn't get to play last week; I forced myself to keep the previous version with the Tombstalkers so I could gain that needed data/information.
And I gotta say; I'm glad I did... cuz Tombstalkers and the x2 Mulldrifters proved to be pretty good.
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Tasigur, The Golden Fang
1 Tombstalker
2 Mulldrifter
Spells: 26
2 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Damnation
1 Anger of the Gods
3 Terminate
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Electrolyze
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Cryptic Command
1 Dispel
2 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
1 Shadow of Doubt
4 Serum Visions
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
Lands: 25
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
2 Blood Crypt
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Island
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Dispel
1 Countersquall
2 Flashfreeze
1 Suffer the Past
1 Sowing Salt
4 Fulminator Mage
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Magma Spray
1 Go for the Throat
WIN 2-1 ROUND 1 VS Jund Living End Combo
+Really don't remember much about this match; first time I played it; pretty much pegged it immediately for what it was worth.
+I didn't feel like I was never really in control; sure in GM2 I lost; but it was a bit of bad luck with a misplay.
LOSS 1-2 ROUND 2 VS Grixis Control
+It was the standard 3 Gurmag 2 Tasigur 22 Land list.
+It was interesting; the Mulldrifter and Tombstalker proved to be very strong in GM2 and ran away with the game.
+In Game 1 however; we go to about 10 Turns; just going back and fourth; he didn't really do anything that I felt left me out of control... but it got to a point where I needed a CRUEL to restock; and just lost a war of attrition; flooded out a bit.
+In Game 3 I kept a poor hand; he stuck Turn 2 Tasigur. That stuck around for a few turns; never got the Terminates; and finally I did get one but by that point he had the Cryptic Backup.
-We talked after the match; at that point I revealed to him what my deck was "REALLY" about... by this point he just assumed it was a tweek from the Tasigur/Gurmag Control build... but noticed I was running more lands because each game I was sitting on 10 to 12 lands before I died. I showed him the Cruels; so then the Mulldrifters made alot more sence to him. He admitted that Mulldrifters and Tombstalkers were really good VS him; when the Tombstalker finished the game; I had ran him out of Removal and it just got there and ended things quickly. He felt Mulldrifter was really good VS Him because they helped me win the Attrition War in the 2nd game.
-He felt had I not flooded out in GM1; I would of taken Game 1; a single Cruel would of turned the tides big time. In Game 3 with the Turn 2 Tasigur; he admitted that it was a bit lucky and all in all he felt I was more geared to beating his deck.
-IN theory; I agree; if you successfully deal with the Gurmags and Tasigurs; they don't really have much else going for them after that.
+And who knows; maybe I should of played the DIRTY game and brought in my Land Destruction Package VS him??? LOL
WIN 2-1 ROUND 3 VS Mono Black Aggro
+Lost Game 1; just out aggroed me and I didn't keep a great hand.
+Once I saw what I was up against; the sideboard plan was easy.
+Dominated from there...
The person that won tonight was playing BURN; he's the same person I have now beat in about 4 straight matches. 2 weeks ago I went undefeated and he was one of the players I beat.
He beat the Grixis Control player that I lost to.
I talked to the Grixis Control player about the Burn match; and he said it's his worst matchup for sure...
I kind of chuckled as I know that matchup very well; and feel like I have a great matchup VS them now and know how the match has to play out...
I did not share my Burn Matchup notes... #Hater HAHA
So with all this being said; I was going to shift my deck and move away from Tombstalker.
However; although in theory I thought Gurmag would be better; and I was planning to go back to 2 Gurmag and 1 Tasigur and go back to being more of a Hybrid of the Control Version of Grixis while also being CRUEL.
However; I saw enough of Tombstalker tonight that I feel it's solid and I think it'll stay.
So because I'm going to keep Tombstalker; I'm still going to go to a 2/1 split... but instead of going 2 Gurmag 1 Tasigur; and switching it to 2 Tombstalker and 1 Tasigur; I'm actually going to go 2 Tasigur and 1 Tombstalker.
Tasigur ends up eating removal the moment you play it; regardless if you're activating or not.
In our decks; I don't think we really want to focus on activating it too often; I think we activate it when we've cleaned up the GY and are going into the realms of a GRINDY war of attrition match.
So the fact that Tasigur is Cheaper than both Gurmag and Tombstalker; I'd rather run a Tasigur out there early to eat up removal; Kolaghan Command Tasigur back; replay it; to eat up more removal.
Counter the Removal when I can; to the point you know they are all dried out and drop Tombstalker.
Beyond that observation; everything else will stay the same.
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Tasigur, The Golden Fang
1 Tombstalker
2 Mulldrifter
Spells: 25
2 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Damnation
1 Anger of the Gods
3 Terminate
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Electrolyze
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Cryptic Command
1 Dispel
2 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
4 Serum Visions
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
Lands: 25
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
2 Blood Crypt
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Island
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Dispel
1 Countersquall
2 Flashfreeze
1 Suffer the Past
1 Sowing Salt
4 Fulminator Mage
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Magma Spray
1 Go for the Throat
Now; I do wonder about only having 7 Cantrips... BUT: I do run 2 Mulldrifters; and I have to say I'm very pleased with it.
I feel it's going to be great in the Control Mirrors; and it's going to give me an edge where most of the other decks are just going to be Cantriping and don't really have alot of DRAW going on.
So I think I can get away with 7 Cantrips.
I pulled the Shadow of Doubt to give me my 2nd Tasigur; I think that's ok.
I think with Shadow of Doubt; once people know you have it; and it's on their radar; they play around it and it becomes less and less good from week to week.
So I think it's going to be one of those cards that I put back into my mainboard 60 once and a blue moon just to keep my opponents honest and guessing.
But ultimately I'd rather something that does MORE VS MORE than Shadow of Doubt.
So there's my observations/opinions from tonight...
And this is why I chose you to colaborate with privately too. LOL
Very valid points!
Although I still think Downfall or Command are the better "1 OFs"; I def wouldn't be disappointed having Dreadbore either.
I think all 3 are fine options for sure...
Again though; I still haven't gone there yet to have any of these 3 in my 75... I think one of my lists I was going to but ultimately cut it.
I have all 3 and just would want to test it I think; cuz I haven't tested a devoted slot to that yet so I can't say 1 way or another at the end of the day.
Well; my point was is that Liliana of the Veil doesn't seem like a horrible planeswalker against us, obviously if shes left unchecked she is; but that can be said about ANY planeswalker...
So what's the worst that happens...
Let's say they Up Tick; and we Kolaghan's Command it for 2 Damage; take our Turn; and maybe Bolt it? Sure we're spending 2 cards to deal with it; but we also have Mana Leaks that could easily counter it early as well.
I feel the chances are pretty good that we have any 1 to 2 of our Burn spells more often then not to deal with that.
That's why I said for the EARLY walkers; most of them can easily be dealt with via our Burn Spells.
Thus I don't put much stock into a Dreadbore at Sorcery Speed that early and also as a 1 OF.
If I am running 2 Dreadbore; then maybe; but even then I still don't think so... The better 1 of for me is either Downfall or Silumgar's Command, with me leaning more towards the Command.
I mean at the end of the day; Dreadbore isn't horrible either; I think 1 of with any of those 3 cards is pretty solid; but if it were me I'd rather a 1 of between Command or Downfall.
As of now though I still haven't really gone there yet and added any of these cards to my 75.
The reason Dreadbore is good is because it's only 2 CMC; but honestly the Walkers we would want Dreadbore against aren't the early ones anyways...
The Early walkers our Bolts/Electrolyze/Kolaghan's Commands usually are enough to do the trick if they get through the early counters.
The ones we really want the Planeswalker kill against are the TRON Walkers... IE: the ones that come down and have massive Loyalty to start out.
Like Ugin; Karn mostly...
So I think Dwarf mentioned Silumgar's Command as it provides great other ToolBox utility for our deck; could bounce a Blood Moon for example pretty easily without it being too mana intensive like a Cryptic would otherwise be.
Beyond Silumgar's Command; I like Hero's Downfall as well; because again they're both Instants.
I vote if we do get into a position where we need a Planeswalker hate; and it more then likely is no more than a 1 OF in our shells; then I say Dwarf is spot on and I tip my hat to Silumgar's Command with Hero's Downfall being the next likely choice.
Although I like Dreadbore; I don't think the 2 CMC is really that significant; and so the fact it's also got a 2nd negative going for it by being Sorcery just takes it off the table for me.
Just my opinion about the Walker hate options... for now I haven't quite gone there yet; but I have considered it a few times.
Ym1r; Cruel is absolutely worth it.
Here's what I think is weak about the Grixis Control shells that are NON Cruel Based; where's their stabilizer?
If they run up against any Rogue Decks; or heck; JUND which has been gaining a ton of popularity lately; and the opponent kills their Tasigurs and Gurmags...
Uses Discard to rip Counters out of your hand; then uses Path to Exile; Maelstrom Pulse; Terminates to kill your winconditions; and just rips your hand apart... then what?
The thing I like about Cruel; it's our Wild Card in every matchup; it's the 1 card in our deck that turns the tides in any game; VS any match.
If a Cruel Resolves; our Win% drastically increases; if we resolve the 2nd; even more.
Without Cruels; I feel like the deck is simply a 1 trick pony... which is why I firmly believe I want some semblance of Tasigurs and Gurmags/Tombstalkers in my CRUEL list.
So I've developed my list to be a bit of a Hybrid of Grixis Control; but adding a few more lands and Cruels.
I've been on this plan since the beginning of my development of this deck simply because I remember playing Cruels before; back in the day when it was STD legal; it was a 1 Trick Pony.
Resolve Cruel; WIN.
In Modern; I don't think you want to be a 1 Trick Pony; because then decks can easily hate you out in Modern because there's so many tools at our disposal.
An Example:
Blood Moon? Yea; we probably aren't resolving Cruels with a Blood Moon out; sure we have things we can do to deal with Blood Moon; but until we deal with it; what then?
Well I have a whole Tasigur/Tombstalker-Gurmag package; plus Vendilion Clique and Burn. I still have plenty to keep myself busy if someone sneaks a Blood Moon past me. Still plenty of other ways I can win.
Another example; people use Fulminator Mage on me; although it's probably really really bad for me; I still am able to do some things with the DELVE Tasigurs/Gurmags/Tombstalkers.
So to answer your first question; although lengthy; yes I do believe that Cruels are totally worth trying...
As for trying to jam Cruels in a Delver Deck or the 22 to 23 Land Grixis Control decks and building the hybrid going the other way... I wouldn't recommend it.
Alot of people believe that 24 lands is sufficient to run our deck; while I firmly believe we actually want 25 or 26.
I'd be interested to see a 24 land Grixis Control list like Chapin's for example; but having 1 or 2 Cruels in there for the TOP END wild card type of thing... that could be interesting for sure and "COULD" in theory work.
But anything less than 24; I wouldn't recommend it; and would really not expect much.
Something else to consider if you're planning to go the other way on the Hybrid. Taking a Grixis Control shell with approx 22 lands like Chapins; and adding a Cruel or 2.
The issue I have with doing that is you're ALL in on the Tasigur/Gurmag plan; which is not a terrible thing. They are insanely good; and knowing your TOP END is a Cruel or 2; fantastic.
But when you're all in on the Tasigur/Gurmag plan; you're running the Thought Scour package to go along with it.
With Thought Scour you're running the risk of Milling your 1 or 2 Copies of Cruel; now sure that's not a big deal as we run Snapcasters too; but I'd much rather the first Cruel be hitting and available to hit on Turn 7; not on Turn 8 via a Snapcaster Flashback.
So this is why I kind of skimped on the Tasigur/Gurmags a little bit; the Control shells are running about 5 slots for these guys; 3 Gurmags 2 Tasigurs; or something along that range... They are also running the 4 Thought Scours to go with the 4 Visions.
I cut all that out; I kept the Visions cuz they're so good; lowered my number of Tasigurs; added more Answers/Counters/Cantrips/Draw; and added a few more lands with my 2 Cruels.
That's how I got to my list...
I was running a 2/1 Split of 2 Tasigurs and 1 Gurmag; but I recently dropped it down to 1/1...
So far it's been testing fine; but if I ever go back to a 2/1 split; I'll probably do 2 Gurmags and 1 Tasigur instead going forward.
I've been playing around with Tombstalker in the Gurmag slot; and although it's decent enough; 1 CMC does seem to have pretty significant implications.... I may end up going back to Gurmag after the week's Modern events and analyze how Tombstalker performed in place of Gurmag.
You're missing Cruels; otherwise that list doesn't belong on this Thread... lol
It's nice when you're debating card choices and giving constructive feedback when both sides of the arguments are valid; because then at that point I don't think either of us is wrong.
I'm intrigued with Logic Knot; I got 2 FOIL ones awhile ago; it's a card I always thought could be good.
BUT: I feel it clashes with Tasigur AND Tombstalker.
So when I gave you the feedback that if you're going for just x1 OF either of those Bigs; I understand why you would do that because I think Logic Knot would ruin it if you ran x1 or more of both.
So I like your 1 of in that Slot; still think you'll get more out of Tasigur; but I like the 1 of because of your Logic Knot choice; I feel like that's a great choice if you go Logic Knot.
One thing with me; I've always got backup decks... one of my backup plans is if I decide Tasigur and Gurmag/Tombstalker aren't needed; then I could honestly cut them from my list; which makes LOGIC KNOT hella good IMO.
Because at that point; the only card we have that wants cards in the GY is Snapcaster; so Logic Knot gets all the rest for DELVE purposes.
I have my FOIL 2; and everytime I see it in lists; I always consider it and mull it over...
But again I do think it clashes if you're running more than 1 slot of the Tasigurs/Gurmags/Tombstalkers.
So I like your direction...
I say def stick to your guns; test it out and share your feedback/report.
I like the tweeks you've made for sure; wish you luck on Friday.
Batterskull:
While I like alot of the tweeks; I'm not going to rehash why I'm not a fan of Batterskull. You know my take; and I've heard yours; and I say if it works for you by all means play it.
Who am I to try and talk someone out of something that works for them... I'm nobody. I love Batterskull; just not IN LOVE with it right now in the current Meta; or atleast my meta.
NO Tasigur:
While I like the Tombstalker; if you're giving yourself 1 Slot for that kind of card; I would absolutely want Tasigur > Tombstalker. If you're only reserving 1 slot for that kind of spell; Tasigur absolutely does so much more. It's ALMOST as good of a beater as Tombstalker; but where Tasigur gets my nod if I had to pick 1 OR the Other; it's in those Grindy Games; or those Games where maybe you're trying to play around a Blood Moon; and you're looking for things to do till you're able to deal with the Blood Moon. Tasigur gives you just an extra utility that I admit I don't always "NEED" but it's so great to have as an OPTION just in case I do need it.
26 Lands:
I have to say; my very very very FIRST list; the one where I compared all the Top Grixis Lists over the last 6 months or so... All the Grixis Lists were Delver, Twin, and regular Control lists via Young Pyromancer, Olivia, Tasigur/Gurmag.... My list before I even posted here in this Forum/Thread...
I ran 26 lands...
Once I added 4 Serum Visions; stayed true to the formula of about 8 to 12 Cantrips; 25 lands feels really really right and good.
Now; don't get me wrong; I'm of the mindset with LANDs/Manabase that More is BEST... When in doubt; run that extra land and scale it back after you get a feel for things.
But I assure you; that's probably only the 2nd thing that we all agree on. 25 Lands seems to be the good place to be.
BUT: I say that while also considering the fact you have mainboarded 2 Ghost Quarters.
While I like Ghost Quarter; I feel it's RISKY in our Deck.
IF: I ran Ghost Quarters; I too would probably want 26 or heck even 27 Lands if I ran Mainboard Ghost Quarters.
BUT: Let's also keep in mind; in a PINCH; if you really really really need say that 3rd SWAMP to get CRUEL colors online; you can Ghost Quarter your own Land to fetch it up.
So although I think you could drop to 25; I think I totally understand your reasoning for being at 26; and because it's Ghost Quarters; I like it and think it's fine.
What I would like to try though; is having 1 or I guess 2 Ghost Quarters Main; being at 25 Lands; and see how well the 4 Serum Visions with all the Cantrips powers you through and helps you fix things up.
Could be too greedy... but yea; if it were me; I'd try it; cut 1 Land and add the 4th Serum Visions.
3 Cryptic:
I've gone back and forth on this one; many times... Sometimes I like it; most times I don't.
I keep adding it; cutting it back...
Drives me nuts... how could I be "SO DISRESPECTFUL" on such a GREAT card....
It bothers me... but definitely for me; 2 I feel is the right number.
It's something to consider... dropping down to 2 Cryptics is not a "horrible" thing...
Counter Package:
I feel this package can differ depending upon the Player; with personal preference being a big factor; while also the players Meta Game being the bigger factor.
So I have zero issue with it...
What I do think is we want about 7 or 8 Counters Total; that would be my only gripe if it was way too high or way to low.
You're at 9; I think that's right about where we want to be at, so no issues there.
Other than those few little points; some of it probably nit picky; sorry... I think it looks really good!
I hope you do well on Friday!
I'm not going to touch the Side because that to me is also very much about the Players Personal Choices; Play Styles; and also Meta Specific.
So I trust that you've done your homework; you def seem to know Modern well and your list so I'm sure it's fine.
Very well said!! I don't know if they have officially said this; but it sure as heck does seem to me that the new sets are dripping with cards that have a clear cut impact on the other formats more so than even STD.
I find it interesting cuz in previous past history; it hasn't been so clear cut.
I do think this is definitely a great observation which makes the Teachings statement very valid and true.
I've actually pulled Keranos from my 75... not sure if it's right or wrong yet; I enjoyed having it; but I like the Flexibility of my Turn 5 play more instead of tapping out for Keranos.
IE: Keeping a Cryptic Up and Delving for Tasigur/Gurmag/Tombstalker; or Evoking a Mulldrifter to draw 2 and leaving Counter Magic Up.
So I have dropped Keranos for this week to try some diff thigns out.
As for Tasigur; I'd say TRY IT before you knock it.
I'm guilty of this myself; so it's nothing personal I mean by it... I hated Serum Visions and tried a bunch of things in that slot before I finally tried Serum Visions; now I couldn't ever drop Visions; it's really good for us and CRUEL.
So try Tasigur; try the Gurmag... they are fantastic.
They are good at closing games out; but even more if you resolve the Tasigur with counter backup; then he can start to take a Grindy Game and start creating advantages with his ability to give us a leg up in a grindy game.
Here's where my current list is at this week; I admit I'm trying a few slight tweeks for the sake of seeing how it plays out...
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Tasigur, The Golden Fang
1 Tombstalker
2 Mulldrifter
Spells: 26
2 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Damnation
1 Anger of the Gods
3 Terminate
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Electrolyze
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Cryptic Command
2 Mana Leak
1 Dispel
2 Spell Snare
1 Shadow of Doubt
4 Serum Visions
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
Lands: 25
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
2 Blood Crypt
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Dispel
2 Flashfreeze
1 Countersquall
1 Suffer the Past
1 Sowing Salt
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Magma Spray
1 Sudden Death
KERANOS:
Now; the reason I pulled Keranos is again simply because I want more Flexibility with my turn 5. I want something that is impacting the game sooner rather than later... Keranos on Turn 5 doesn't yield you any reward till Turn 6; and let's be honest... On Turn 6; if you hit a SPELL; it's only 3 Damage. Doesn't really help us curve to CRUEL. If we hit a Land; sure then we draw the Land and an additional card; which does help us curve to Turn 7 Cruel. To me; that's the path of victory; curving to Turn 7 or 8 Cruel; everything else should support that and or help setup the finish. I also don't feel like Keranos really helps us VS any matchup; he does provide a clock; and does provide support to our path to victory; but I think this could really be almost anything and it would help us more VS more.
CLIQUE:
I've re-added this back to my 60 simply because I feel like this helps me VS More matchups than not.
I'm very comfortable with the Burn and Zoo matchups; I'm getting more comfortable with the CoCo matchups...
I didn't cut anything that helps me stay comfortable with those matchups; but I cut 3 cards from my previous list...
Keranos was 1; the 2nd Jace was another... Clique helps me in the matchups I felt weak to; IE: Twin; Tron; Amulet Bloom; Abzan CoCo Combo decks.
Keranos doesn't do that... a 2nd Jace is pretty bad if you already have the 1st one.
Thus the change...
DAMNATION & ANGER:
This is another new addition to my mainboard; in private Grixis Guru finally got me convinced... it's needed.
VS the CoCo decks and the Elf Decks; absolutely...
Now; the problem is... do we want 2 Damnations? 2 Angers?
I personally love the 1/1 split... I think VS More matchups; Angers are more important simply because of the EXILE clause.
But then there are some situations where Damnations; more specifically the "Can't be regenerated" clause is better.
Either way; I don't want to be drawing more than 1 of either of these; ever...
VS the CoCo Abzan lists; or Elf Lists; easy.. Bring in the 2nd Anger with the 2 Sprays and even the Sudden Death; and you have yourself a great plan VS those decks.
Those are the key changes to my last known list I posted on the Forums.
Prior to making these slight tweeks.
VS Burn; 3 and 0.
VS Elves; 4 and 0.
VS Affinity; 2 and 1.
VS Bogles; 1 and 0.
I haven't played Tron ina while; have never played against Amulet Bloom; and haven't played the Abzan CoCo in any event.
On the side; I'm:
VS Twin; 0 and 2
VS Abzan CoCo; 1 and 2 --> I still chalk this up to me learning the match though; easily should of been 2 and 1.
So I've made the adjustments; and I'm ready to go again this week and see how things go.
With that; there was 1 other key change to my list.
GURMAG VS TOMBSTALKER --> With my list; I don't go all in on Tasigur or Gurmag; never really have... At most I was 2/1 Split; 2 Tasigur and 1 Gurmag; or 2 Gurmag and 1 Tasigur.
With our Cruel lists; we aren't running the FULL ON Thought Scour package and aren't expecting to be playing Tasigurs/Gurmags on Turn 2 like the Grixis Control lists that are picking up alot of HYPE that Chapin Piloted.
So I felt if I'm at a 1/1 Split; then perhaps I could get away with replacing Gurmag with Tombstalker as I believe Tombstalker is the better 1 OF than Gurmag is.
I give kudos to DoULikeMyUlt1m4tuM; in one of his earlier lists he ran Tombstalker; and I was quite interested in giving it a TRY.
I'm there now; trying it out; and so far in Goldfishing and some minor low level testing; I still get Tombstalker out on Turn 4 or 5 with Counter Backup; and his FLYING has proven to be pretty key.
So I'm interested in giving it a test run on Thursday for the first time officially and see how things go.
Agree on Bitterblossom; seeing it in practice with various Grixis Control streamers; I'm not sure I'm sold.
I suppose it could get under Counter magic against like Blue/X Tron; and I suppose it could work VS GR Tron...
And honestly; in the Grixis Control shells where they aren't jamming Cruels like our crazy butts; they don't really have any way to re-coup the life lost like WE do with Cruels later.
But yea; VS Jund = Maelstrom Pulse / Abrupt Decay
VS other Grixis Control NON Cruel matchups; I think it could be pretty good as a way to apply preasure.
VS Delver decks; I like it as creating Chump Blockers Early; and applying pressure after we've dealt with their Delvers.
So IDK; the more I think about it; it's worth a TEST with our Cruel lists... I don't like it in the Non Cruel Control lists; but in our Cruel lists I think it's worth a look.
As for Nighthawks; I'm totally fine if my Burn opponent puts a Bolt on it.... because that's 1 less Bolt we have to deal with; and when we Kolaghan Command Nighthawk back and re-play it; and they have to waste another Bolt? That's now 6 damage we've saved.
I'm a fan of Nighthawks; but I still think I'd rather my Suffer from the Past because I can bring it in VS other decks that like to use their GY while also gaining me some life in the Burn Matchup; and it can also be a finisher in others.
I do like the Nighthawk option though; in private with Grixis Guru this was one of the options I liked out of the full list I listed in our discussion.
See that's where you're wrong sir; I don't mind constructive criticism when it's warranted and based on factual information.
Your criticism was that my list wasn't running enough Draw; when actually my list runs more draw then most of the lists here.
Because on top of the 9 to 11 Cantrips; I'm running Jace and Mulldrifter in my list to go along with the Cruels.
Where most people don't run any of that and rely solely on the Cantrips and Cruels.
So your criticism was not taken well because it has nothing to do with my list at all; so you're right; didn't take it well at all cuz it doesn't help me.
As for your list 10 to 12 pages back; sorry I must of missed it because of the zillion pages of the Molten Rain VS Fulminator debate that went on... my apologies.
As for the Mana Leak/Spell Snares; keep them; because I could make a case depending upon what's heavy in a certain meta that they're solid to have.
If you deal with a ton of Burn decks for example; or Zoo Decks; or Abzan CoCo decks; I'd say keep them. Those 2 counter spells are great in those matchups.
As for Batterskull; that's fine; if you think it's the "Most Efficient Finisher" in your deck; then that tells me in the meta you're playing there's not a ton of the hate that most others experience.
I have Batterskulls; just pulled them from my list because of the hate I deal with... so neither one of us is wrong.
I for one like to build beyond my meta though and look for better universal things. Nothing wrong with doing that or not doing that... fair enough.
Nope; totally agree with this.
When I said it's the first Cruel list to top 8...
I was making the point that it's the first Cruel list in a very long time to Top 8.
I never said it's the "First Ever" to top 8... and although I was clearly excited; you are spot on that you still have to take a IQ's results with a grain of salt.
Gotta consider the matchups; the meta; and how many people were there... how many rounds; etc..
But fact of the matter is; for the most part the meta will have alot of the similar decks that we all have to face and deal with...
So although we should take the result with a grain of salt; I do think my point is still valid that we could take something away from this and draw a conclusion that Cruel Control is a viable Finisher in Modern; and although many believe it'll never be Tier 1; I still think it can be.
The interesting thing is; I actually have more Card "Draw" than you do in your latest list...
Yet I don't have enough? Interesting...
Honestly; I think you guys just like to nit pick at me because I'll defend my list and my choices...
I run Mulldrifter and Jace in my list; along with about 9 to 11 Cantrips depending upon the version I play.
Please before you try to do like the rest do and nit pick about me or my list; get the facts... thanks.
As for your list specifically; where have you been the last 10 or so pages?
Not sure I've seen you here before??
But ok; yea let's make a Cruel meta.. lol
The Batterskulls are Terrible depending upon the meta you're playing; we've all pretty much I think agreed about that finally.
So I wouldn't expect them to do much with such a big up tick with Burn and Kolaghan's Commands seeing play unless you don't see that in your meta.
Also; Jund has seen an up tick in the bigger meta game so Maelstrom Pulse and Abrupt Decay are out in heavy numbers too.
Other than the Batterskulls; I think your list for the most part is fine.
I'd caution the x3 Mana Leak and x3 Spell Snares though; depending upon your Meta; those could be pretty ugly to get depending upon the matchups you're facing.
I've spread out my Counter Package a bit more...
Good luck.