this isn't the first ever, the first in awhile yes but not the first. the bitterblossom in the side is the first time i have seen them in the 75 at all so that's new. anyone with a bitterblossom wanna test this?
This is most certainly not the first time cruel has top 8ed a bigger event(in modern), but this is the first time that a pure Grixis list has placed in a while. Most placing cruel lists were four-color in the scg circuit.
Cruel Control always had a place in modern, it is up to us to show everyone else just how Cruel we can be
First of all I realize it used to be really good awhile back ago...
Second; most of you keep saying that Cruel isn't Tier 1 yet I been saying that all it's going to take is 1 Top 8...
I never said it was the "FIRST EVER"; it's definitely the "First" Cruel list in quite a long time while most of you believe that it'll never be a Tier 1 deck. #HookedOnPhonics
You guys always nit pick at my replies... love it.
Third; Bolas you're saying Cruel "Always" had a place in Modern? Yet you're also one of the ones that claims it'll never be Tier 1... so that by the very definition means that no; Cruel hasn't always had a place in Modern.
In fact; quite a few people believe that Cruel doesn't have a place in the Current meta game in Modern and it'll never be Tier 1.
I've disagreed with that from the start and have always said all its going to take is 1 list to Top 8...
Low and behold; we have 1 that has Top 8ed; and it's almost identical to Grixis Guru's and pretty dang close to mine...
As far as Vampire Nighthawk in the side when I analyzed the BURN matchup; this was one of the cards that I discussed with Grixis Guru during our private collaborations.
I think it's a BETTER option than any Enchantment or Artifact because BURN players run anywhere between 6 to 8 Art/Ench hate spells in Smash To Smithereens or Destructive Revelry.
So when I built a big list of NON Art/NON Ench options to help us in the Burn matchup; this was on the list.
Sure; they run a ton of removal via burn to kill the Nighthawk; but that's 1 less burn spell hitting your face; but with Kolaghan's Commands and Cruels; we can get the Nighthawk back and replay it. Nighthawk in my theorizing runs away with the game if it lives for even just 1 Attack.
In this guys list that Top 8ed the IQ; he has 3 Kolaghan's Commands; so yea I think it is a pretty fine option.
I have opted for Suffer the Past only because I had 1 Slot I could devote beyond my Counter Package to the Burn Matchup and it's been a great option too. But I would love to try and find x2 slots for 2 Nighthawks to go along with the Counter Package.
As for Bitterblossom I've seen alot of Grixis Control variations running it in the side; and I've had a chance to see it in Action on Twitch with people play testing Grixis Control lists. I gotta admit; not a fan at all.
Personally I think the streamer brought it in on some of the bad matchups like Jund; they play Maelstrom Pulse and can easily remove it; Abrupt Decay also...
VS Control decks like Grixis Control; or Jeskai or Tron decks; I think it could be good. The Grixis Players don't really have a way to deal with it; but the Tron players generally do.
So I don't know; I'd much rather see Counter magic in there VS Control Matchups instead of a card that can be played around and force us to slowly tick our life total down or be easily removed.
So since it seems no one has caught this list yet...
We have our first Grixis CRUEL List that Top 8ed a SCG IQ.
And to top it off; this list is very very close if not damn near identical to Grixis Guru's list where he had mainboard Fulminators.
EDIT: to give myself a little credit too; other than the Mainboard Fulminators in the list; it's almost identical to my "current" list too. Few minor differences; but I firmly believe my differences are good ones.
I saw someone post their thoughts on sideboarding for the CoCo in their article on channel fireball. He sided into some dispels and vendilion cliques and he explained his thoughts:
"The Vendilion Clique + Dispel package may look a bit weird, but Collected Company is their best card by such a substantial margin that it is important to have a really efficient answer to it. [...] Vendilion Clique is pretty good as a flying win condition, but it also prevents them from building up a hand of lots of Collected Companies/Witnesses to overload your counterspells. Clique on end step (with Dispel or Deprive up) will force them to either go for it or lose a great card, and let you use your counterspell mana efficiently and on your terms."
I thought this was interesting, I could definitely see keeping these cards in if you have some weak cards to cut especially in that matchup :).
I have 1 Mainboard Dispel in my current list; and 1 Side.
And I too have said that Dispel VS CoCo is pretty good; I also bring in my x2 Flashfreeze out of the Side with the Countersquall.
I basically side out some numbers of the Narrow Counters and bring in these and keep all my removal VS them.
You pluck away at their Combo Pieces; but protect VS CoCo to make sure that it doesn't resolve.
Then Sweep with Counterspell backup so they can't reset.
Anger of the Gods is the better Sweeper in this matchup but Damnation is "O.K"
I also have x2 Magma Sprays in my side too.
I do fairly well I think VS CoCo; without any of the side I feel the match is pretty close already.
But I think my side plan helps greatly.
EDIT: And this is all without Vendilion Clique. I feel like with Magma Sprays/Anger of the Gods and the Counters; Clique isn't needed.
You have SCG premium? If you do he literally says his list was not tuned correctly citing his only loses being to collected company decks.
So I am very right considering I repeated what the man himself had to say about his deck.
Said he wanted an extra land and a pair of sweepers.
I think what GrixisGuru is saying; Chapin never admitted or said those words exactly in his article...
I've read it a few times; and I don't recall him saying anything to the tune of "My list wasn't tuned.."
Where Chapin admitted fault was he didn't bring enough to counteract what CoCo decks were doing.
He is 0-13 VS CoCo Decks and admitted the need for some kind of Sweeper of either Damnation or Angers; or a combination of the 2.
I'm going to re-read it again; don't think he admitted that his list wasn't Tuned though... Finishing 9th with an Untuned list if he did say that; wow... Kudos to him.
It was Tuned; it was tuned towards Burn/AmuletBloom/Tron; less so towards CoCo; I wouldn't call that an untuned list.
He also admitted that 3 Cryptic is probably the "Right" number; but his favorite card is Cryptic; so he couldn't see himself registering the Deck List without the full 4.
I maybe wrong; but yea; he didn't use those words of it not being tuned.
EDIT:
I think we all can learn something in hindsight...
I think that's really what he was saying.
Thought he could of gone 3 Cryptics.
Thought he needed a 22nd land.
Thought he needed a pair of sweepers.
But all in all; finishing 9th; he didn't say it was an untuned list; he just learned a few new things with his finish and gained a better perspective is all.
I have been testing Silumgar's Command and it seems like a good card to include in the 75.
Played a modern event last night and I have come to the conclusion that we do not need that silly Dragon's Claw to beat burn.
I beat burn with Dispels and Countersqualls, so I think countermagic is the path to take against them.
I also tested a single Witchbane Orb that I resolved against my burn opponent that had him cursing himself.
After last night I strongly believe that 4 Cryptic Command is correct for my list with all the aggro. That may seem counter intuitive, but using the fog mode gave me enough time to find a wrath and reset the board.
I made this case a few pages back but it seems if I make a case; it's only because a Pro said it or something and no one really listens or takes me seriously; which is fine...
I know I have a lack of experience in the format; but one thing I do pride myself on is understanding how decks beat me; and understand the best ways or appropriate reasonable ways to attack them to prevent them from beating us.
I'm pretty good with Meta Gaming...
My first match that I studied when I sleeved up my Cruel Control list was Burn; I said it awhile ago that Artifacts/Enchantments are NOT the way to beat Burn.
I said it before any pro said it; but since certain people enjoy the fact that I also like to reference pros; Chapin just wrote an article about his Grixis Control list and finishing 9th at GP:C...
My finding awhile back ago was that Burn decks run anywhere between 5 to 8 "Destroy Enchantment/Artifact Deal Some Damage cards".
I said tapping out for Turn 5 Batterskull just plays right into their hands... tapping out for Turn 6 Wurmcoil Engine plays right into their hands.
If I did give a slight nod to an Artifact that "COULD" in theory get the job done; it would be devoting like 3 slots to Dragon's Claw.
Simply because Dragon's Claw comes down as early as Turn 2; and if you run more than one your chances of getting one to stick are pretty good.
But that's 3 Slots... 3 precious slots; for 1 matchup... I don't like it.
I hated that solution to the problem; I've been saying its all about the Counterspells. Dispel; Flashfreeze/Countersquall.
I also run a 1 of Suffer the Past; because although our Counters certainly help; it's still a close game around Turn 6 or 7; if we don't curve out to Turn 7 Cruel; we are pretty close to death and 1 mistake at mishandling a resource or tapping out taking any kind of chance could cost us...
So I run a 1 of Suffer the Past as a way to help just in case...
So yea; I been saying it for awhile now... Welcome aboard.
The match I'm currently studying is TRON/XX matches... Blue Tron; GR Tron; sure they are vastly different decks; but they still rely on the same weakness; their Mana Base. Successfully neutralize that; and both decks drop down to our level and become much more manageable.
Currently we all disagree about the proper way to attack Tron Decks; but that's ok... I like my way.
...and I'm glad I corrupted someone else to trying Silumgar's Command haha
Yea we've been discussing it; and I gotta admit; I'm coming around to it as well.
It's easier to get the BOUNCE out of it than Cryptic in a situation where we want/need to bounce Blood Moon; but it also has some much needed Planeswalker Hate if one slips through our Permission Package.
Of all the Planeswalker Hate; I think this is one of the ones that is up there and should be strongly considered.
I'm not talking about the Cheaper Walkers; I'm talking about the big bad ugly ones that are tough to kill with Burn when they resolve... UGIN/KARN.
Silumgar Command I think could really have a home in Modern; so I'm becoming convinced myself.
To take that a step further; you make alot of great cases for your list and card choices; I leave no stone unturned; especially about a deck I'm passionate about.
So I appreciate your perspective and feedback that you bring to this thread.
Finallly a good reply that add something that isn't like " play fulminator is really better cuz pros play it And idk but is better ".
If this is all you got out of my reply on my reasoning of Fulminator VS Molten Rain; then you're more of an idiot than I thought... I honestly didn't think that was possible; kudos to you sir.
With Fulmintaor; I should hope that no one here casts a Fulminator and instantly POPS it and destroys a land.
yes especially on turn 3 , when oppo Alredy putted out 2/3 urzaLands
But the theory is still sound; you want Fulminator; attack with Fulminator to get some damage in; and SAC Fulminator when a great situation presents itself.
yep we can attack And still wait his third piece then we can responde to a Land with our Instant ability, oh wait!
Where as Molten Rain is Sorcery Speed; so we're either forced to potentially play it EARLY tapping out for it; potentially hitting a land that isn't ideal; or it simply rots in your hand.
agree on this fulminator is good to play mid/late game , it has flash / 0 cmc so is really better
Not to mention Sowing Salt can be brought in as a way to exile Darksteel Citadel VS Affinity matchups to help to keep Etched Champion turned off when we've answered everything else...
LOL sowing salt was we ak in my play test also against bloom, i don't want know how it work vs robots . Is a really narrow card, I still think to go down to 1x in favor of 1x surgical/extirpate that can be usefully also in other matches
VS these 2 decks; neutralizing their lands is only the first priority of the battle; because these decks have the ability to shift and still cast their threats if we're not careful.
so isn't really important If fulminator can help our race! (Molten is however better cuz always do 2dmgs) . But potentially is more important to take 2 important lands in 5 turns with more probabilities
But our Answers become much much better if they don't have Tron or alot of Lands in play. Mana Leaks become a fine reasonable option to counter a tappout attempt for a Karn; or Ugin...
So ty but your words can only convince me that Molten will be better
...only confirmed what I already thought; good luck to you.
Not to mention that a Fulminator Mage plus a surgical extraction on the piece that hit the graveyard leaves them crippled the rest of the game and all that can potentially cast on turn 3 alongside paying 2 life.
To be fair; that's IF you're playing Surgical Extraction post board...
From what I can tell; you and I are pretty much the only people that find Value in the Extraction.
What I like to do is attack these decks from all different angles; hit em with Haymaker after Haymaker; after Haymaker....
Let them be worried I have Shadow of Doubt so they opt to not crack Expedition Map until a turn or 2 later with counter backup; let them be worried I have Surgical Extraction; let them be worried I have the Sowing Salt so instead of tapping out they leave mana up always...
All of that plays right into my hands of a Long Game; slowing their building of the Tron/Amulet Blood and allows me to continue to store resources and still have the ability to hit em in alot of different ways.
If they play VS my hate aggressively; then they put the onus on me in being able to use the Right Tool for the Right Situation; and if that's the case? With more practice in the format; I bank on me in the long run.
I think the problem with Molten Rain is what GrixisGuru eluded to; but I could take it another step forward.
It's SORCERY.
So you're either casting it; hitting a Land that potentially doesn't put Amulet Bloom or XX Tron behind all that much at all.
OR: It just rots in your hand; with the idea that you HOPE to Untap and be able to Hit a Land that is relevant to what they're instead of us just sitting there helpless while they drop their last Tron Piece or drop a Tron Piece; and use Expedition Map to fetch up the 3rd one and complete it... I feel like smart Amulet/Tron players can easily play around a Sorcery Speed Molten Rain as opposed to them knowing that a Fulminator Mage is sitting on the table.
With Fulmintaor; I should hope that no one here casts a Fulminator and instantly POPS it and destroys a land.
Having watched Chapin's Coverage Feature Match VS Amulet Bloom; the commentators referenced a conversation with CVM talking about when people played Fulminators VS Him when he was on Amulet Bloom; that too often people mis-play Fulminators and pop them too early.
Chapin being the HOF Pro that he is did not do that; but unfortunately he didn't draw much more gas beyond that to make the Fulminator better and although he played the Fulminator correctly; he still lost.
But the theory is still sound; you want Fulminator; attack with Fulminator to get some damage in; and SAC Fulminator when a great situation presents itself.
Fulminator gives us a bit more flexibility because you can drop it out there and aren't required to POP it immediately; can provide some sneaky points of damage and still synergizes with the rest of our deck.
Where as Molten Rain is Sorcery Speed; so we're either forced to potentially play it EARLY tapping out for it; potentially hitting a land that isn't ideal; or it simply rots in your hand.
So IMO Fulminator > Molten Rain; but with that being said; I think the best plan of attack is Fulminator 3 or 4 with 1 or 2 Sowing Salt.
Sowing Salt provides some permanent inevitability in those Matchups.
Not to mention Sowing Salt can be brought in as a way to exile Darksteel Citadel VS Affinity matchups to help to keep Etched Champion turned off when we've answered everything else...
If we say EXILE and REMOVE their Urza Tower; they no longer get Tron Online and that helps tremendously on how we attack them the rest of the game.
Also; if we use Sowing Salt, it can't be neutralized by Crucible of Worlds; if we are going all in on the Fulminator Plan AND/OR the Molten Rain Plan; people start using Crucibles to play around that.
For my LD Package; I have opted for a 3 Fulminator and 1 Sowing Salt split to go with my Shadow of Doubt and Counter Suite.
All of which has proven to slow down Tron; and gives us good windows to resolve Sowing Salts or to Snapcaster Flash Sowing Salt BACK.
Because let's be honest; if they Assemble Tron; or Assemble alot of their Bounce Lands in Amulet Bloom; we've already lost.
VS these 2 decks; neutralizing their lands is only the first priority of the battle; because these decks have the ability to shift and still cast their threats if we're not careful.
But our Answers become much much better if they don't have Tron or alot of Lands in play. Mana Leaks become a fine reasonable option to counter a tappout attempt for a Karn; or Ugin...
All of our Answers are great so long as we neutralize the mana base.
Hello folks,
I've been trying to go the narrow path of draw-go with little succes at the last FNM. Annihilated by affinity (animated artifact with my response swallowed by spellskite, then ravager ravaging undbound as my flawed manabase denied me a cryptic), as I was destroyed by regular Jund goyfing me to death.
But... how to put that ? Strangely enough, be able to cast Nicol Bolas three times made my night. And the diffence of power level between tier 1/1.5 decks and my awkward control was more than erased by the pleasure of driving the Eternel Outsider's deck.
I love this deck !
If your approach to grixis is to play pure draw go I think uwr and esper are much better at doing that due to rev. I think the right approach to grixis is something like Patrick Chapin's list from the last gp.
...good thing for us I don't think any of us try to copy what a pro does; this is a CRUEL Control thread and thus we're building decks with Cruel and trying to think outside the box a little bit.
I think most of us here love Cruel; it's our favorite card to resolve; and that's a big reason why we're playing Modern with it... so coming here and saying we should copy Chapin's list or trying to talk us out of Cruel is pertty much a moot point and shouldn't be made at all.
Man keep calm.u admitted That u didnt play test a Lot against Creatures so is stupid to say 'guyz Who hit a top8 in Last 3 month. ' CUz often them didnt play keranos too. And if on mass removal in 75s I can heard reasons there are NO REASONS to dont play the Best card We have positioned on the meta. Anger of the gods is for sure a good card but doesnt take tasi/tarmo/rhino. Prolly u can propose better blockers or See ur entire terminate package no problem for me really.
So how'd your Artifact Grixis Cruel version go? lol
Rotten my first question is cuz ur list run 0 mass removal on ur main deck, and 0 Damnation in 75, I really think we can't be competitive without those cards
Rotten my first question is cuz ur list run 0 mass removal on ur main deck, and 0 Damnation in 75, I really think we can't be competitive without those cards
I think that you are correct...I think sweepers are needed in most matches like Collected Company decks, affinity and even aginst junk/abzan decks. I think his list gets away without maindeck removal a little better because he has a lot of card draw and some bigger bodied blockers for cheap with counter magic back up...
The thing that's interesting to me is that NONE of the other Grixis lists that have placed in the top 8 on SCG: Opens or Invitationals run any Damnations in the 75 either.
What's more interesting is your guys lists are the first lists that have advocated for Damnations.
To be fair; the majority of the creature decks that we have to worry about are wipe-able with Anger of the Gods out of the side.
All the other creature decks turn out to be Combo Decks and so you wouldn't want to tap out for a Turn 4 Wipe as it is.
Thus far; I haven't felt like I needed board sweeps other than Anger of the Gods.
SO I guess It's interesting that it's being said that my list isn't competitive because it lacks Damnation... Tell that to all the Grixis players that have Top 8'ed over the last 3 months or so that also opted to not run Damnation.
Whoa dude... No one said that your list isn't competitive... But the outside of the twin decks... The collected company decks can just play as a beatdown deck the majority of the time until they hit their combo. I just said that I feel it is needed because we are generally trying to play a longer game and that affinity can just run you over without a sweeper in the main deck. If your meta is light on those decks then it is perfectly fine to not run the sweepers main. I just travel a lot and never know what kind of meta I am going to be playing so I build my deck to be able to fight any sort of deck I come across vs. Being tuned to beat my local meta decks. I usually play in a different area every week all summer long then I have a more dedicated 75 during the winter where I see the same decks every week.
On the contrary; that's exactly what DoULikeMyUlt1m4tuM said; has been saying; and keeps saying... At the end of the day I take it with a grain of salt because that artifact build is no worse then what I'm rolling with; I've just tried to be nice.
At any rate; if you're thinking that Damnation is needed for Collective Company decks; then I think everyones perception is flawed.
So on Turns 1, 2, 3, and possibly 4 they play creature creature and more creatures... You try to remove their creatures; the big fatty ones or the ones that are key to combos..
So then on Turn 4 you tap out for a Sorcery Speed Damnation and at EOT they Collective Company?
Or let's just say you tap out for a Turn 4 or 5 Damnation; and they still re-build with CoCo and if you're LUCKY hopefully they don't hit 2 of their 3 pieces of the combo and have the 3rd piece sandbagged... cuz if so; now they are free to Combo off while you're tapped out from the precious Damnation that we so desperately need. LOL
So this idea that Damnation is needed because of CoCo decks is flawed... I'd rather pick off 1 for 1 of their creatures, while using my LIFE as a resource VS those Aggro/Midrange decks; Counter/Kill the Goyfs; and/or counter the CoCo all the while slowly using combat tricks, Tasigurs; and Flashing Back my removal to widdle away at their board.
For the big finish... CRUEL stabilization. Cruel is so good that once it resolves; it's a huge swing in the game; fuels your hand for additional hate; gains you a big chunk of life; and puts your opponent behind. That's when the game shifts; we can afford to take some damage early; picking off the big threats; leaving the little threats; preventing the combos....
Then in Game 2 I bring in the Angers for starters; but also I even bring in the Flashfreezes... Zoo Decks; the up coming Vengevine Decks; Burn; GR Tron; all the CoCo decks; Chord; Tooth and Nail... These decks are here; Flashfreeze is great VS all of those.
Let them build up their board; pick off what you can; then either Turn 3 or 5 Anger and wipe their board with Removal/Counter backup.
That's a much more reasonable plan VS CoCo strategies then tapping out for a Damnation for them to just re-stock up with a EOT CoCo and then possibly Combo you out... lol.
And onto the Affinity situation... Lightning Bolts; Electrolyze; Kolaghan's Commands; Terminates; Leaks, Snares all put in work Mainboard VS Affinity.
Then the Anger of the Gods post board cleans the rest up... yet again we are talking about the same issues; Damnation is just too slow; you want to Anger on Turn 3; or Anger on Turn 5 with Backup.
Last time I checked; Affinity wasn't one of our weak matchups; with or without Damnations...
So perhaps I've gotten really really lucky... perhaps I just play my deck and use my tools very well?
Perhaps as suggested my deck isn't competitive; and perhaps I'll find that out once I stop making some play mistakes that cost me games and have that as my excuse.
Perhaps the success I've had in practice; and in my last event is a fluke... Afterall; in my last event I did beat Burn; I did beat a White Aggro Entreat the Angels deck; almost pulled off the win VS Tron; all without Damnations, Batterskulls, Dragon's Claws, Spellskites, Fulminator Mages while using Tasigur/Gurmag, Shadow of Doubts, Leaks and Serum Visions... all the cards that everyone seems to agree stinks.
Rotten my first question is cuz ur list run 0 mass removal on ur main deck, and 0 Damnation in 75, I really think we can't be competitive without those cards
Rotten my first question is cuz ur list run 0 mass removal on ur main deck, and 0 Damnation in 75, I really think we can't be competitive without those cards
I think that you are correct...I think sweepers are needed in most matches like Collected Company decks, affinity and even aginst junk/abzan decks. I think his list gets away without maindeck removal a little better because he has a lot of card draw and some bigger bodied blockers for cheap with counter magic back up...
The thing that's interesting to me is that NONE of the other Grixis lists that have placed in the top 8 on SCG: Opens or Invitationals run any Damnations in the 75 either.
What's more interesting is your guys lists are the first lists that have advocated for Damnations.
To be fair; the majority of the creature decks that we have to worry about are wipe-able with Anger of the Gods out of the side.
All the other creature decks turn out to be Combo Decks and so you wouldn't want to tap out for a Turn 4 Wipe as it is.
Thus far; I haven't felt like I needed board sweeps other than Anger of the Gods.
SO I guess It's interesting that it's being said that my list isn't competitive because it lacks Damnation... Tell that to all the Grixis players that have Top 8'ed over the last 3 months or so that also opted to not run Damnation.
...also if you want to just take a random card in a match up to see what they are working with in hand it is fairly relevant.
Such WIN!!!
I agree with this and this is a very valid thing too.
With so many decks too having access to some very early spells to help them setup; it's very reasonable that we're going to take something pretty significant in the matchup while getting to look at what they're working with.
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Wow guys really?
First of all I realize it used to be really good awhile back ago...
Second; most of you keep saying that Cruel isn't Tier 1 yet I been saying that all it's going to take is 1 Top 8...
I never said it was the "FIRST EVER"; it's definitely the "First" Cruel list in quite a long time while most of you believe that it'll never be a Tier 1 deck. #HookedOnPhonics
You guys always nit pick at my replies... love it.
Third; Bolas you're saying Cruel "Always" had a place in Modern? Yet you're also one of the ones that claims it'll never be Tier 1... so that by the very definition means that no; Cruel hasn't always had a place in Modern.
In fact; quite a few people believe that Cruel doesn't have a place in the Current meta game in Modern and it'll never be Tier 1.
I've disagreed with that from the start and have always said all its going to take is 1 list to Top 8...
Low and behold; we have 1 that has Top 8ed; and it's almost identical to Grixis Guru's and pretty dang close to mine...
As far as Vampire Nighthawk in the side when I analyzed the BURN matchup; this was one of the cards that I discussed with Grixis Guru during our private collaborations.
I think it's a BETTER option than any Enchantment or Artifact because BURN players run anywhere between 6 to 8 Art/Ench hate spells in Smash To Smithereens or Destructive Revelry.
So when I built a big list of NON Art/NON Ench options to help us in the Burn matchup; this was on the list.
Sure; they run a ton of removal via burn to kill the Nighthawk; but that's 1 less burn spell hitting your face; but with Kolaghan's Commands and Cruels; we can get the Nighthawk back and replay it. Nighthawk in my theorizing runs away with the game if it lives for even just 1 Attack.
In this guys list that Top 8ed the IQ; he has 3 Kolaghan's Commands; so yea I think it is a pretty fine option.
I have opted for Suffer the Past only because I had 1 Slot I could devote beyond my Counter Package to the Burn Matchup and it's been a great option too. But I would love to try and find x2 slots for 2 Nighthawks to go along with the Counter Package.
As for Bitterblossom I've seen alot of Grixis Control variations running it in the side; and I've had a chance to see it in Action on Twitch with people play testing Grixis Control lists. I gotta admit; not a fan at all.
Personally I think the streamer brought it in on some of the bad matchups like Jund; they play Maelstrom Pulse and can easily remove it; Abrupt Decay also...
VS Control decks like Grixis Control; or Jeskai or Tron decks; I think it could be good. The Grixis Players don't really have a way to deal with it; but the Tron players generally do.
So I don't know; I'd much rather see Counter magic in there VS Control Matchups instead of a card that can be played around and force us to slowly tick our life total down or be easily removed.
...might be just me
We have our first Grixis CRUEL List that Top 8ed a SCG IQ.
And to top it off; this list is very very close if not damn near identical to Grixis Guru's list where he had mainboard Fulminators.
EDIT: to give myself a little credit too; other than the Mainboard Fulminators in the list; it's almost identical to my "current" list too. Few minor differences; but I firmly believe my differences are good ones.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=86683
What's most impressive; this is the first sign that a CRUEL list can top 8 a big event and be successful.
The other list was a Magic Online daily.... quite a big jump up if you ask me.
I think this is the beginning of a great future for Cruel Control; I been playing my list alot and feeling really good about Cruels.
I think we'll start to see that it does have a place in modern and it can be Tier 1.
#IpredictedThis
I have 1 Mainboard Dispel in my current list; and 1 Side.
And I too have said that Dispel VS CoCo is pretty good; I also bring in my x2 Flashfreeze out of the Side with the Countersquall.
I basically side out some numbers of the Narrow Counters and bring in these and keep all my removal VS them.
You pluck away at their Combo Pieces; but protect VS CoCo to make sure that it doesn't resolve.
Then Sweep with Counterspell backup so they can't reset.
Anger of the Gods is the better Sweeper in this matchup but Damnation is "O.K"
I also have x2 Magma Sprays in my side too.
I do fairly well I think VS CoCo; without any of the side I feel the match is pretty close already.
But I think my side plan helps greatly.
EDIT: And this is all without Vendilion Clique. I feel like with Magma Sprays/Anger of the Gods and the Counters; Clique isn't needed.
I've actually pulled Clique from my 75.
I think what GrixisGuru is saying; Chapin never admitted or said those words exactly in his article...
I've read it a few times; and I don't recall him saying anything to the tune of "My list wasn't tuned.."
Where Chapin admitted fault was he didn't bring enough to counteract what CoCo decks were doing.
He is 0-13 VS CoCo Decks and admitted the need for some kind of Sweeper of either Damnation or Angers; or a combination of the 2.
I'm going to re-read it again; don't think he admitted that his list wasn't Tuned though... Finishing 9th with an Untuned list if he did say that; wow... Kudos to him.
It was Tuned; it was tuned towards Burn/AmuletBloom/Tron; less so towards CoCo; I wouldn't call that an untuned list.
He also admitted that 3 Cryptic is probably the "Right" number; but his favorite card is Cryptic; so he couldn't see himself registering the Deck List without the full 4.
I maybe wrong; but yea; he didn't use those words of it not being tuned.
EDIT:
I think we all can learn something in hindsight...
I think that's really what he was saying.
Thought he could of gone 3 Cryptics.
Thought he needed a 22nd land.
Thought he needed a pair of sweepers.
But all in all; finishing 9th; he didn't say it was an untuned list; he just learned a few new things with his finish and gained a better perspective is all.
I made this case a few pages back but it seems if I make a case; it's only because a Pro said it or something and no one really listens or takes me seriously; which is fine...
I know I have a lack of experience in the format; but one thing I do pride myself on is understanding how decks beat me; and understand the best ways or appropriate reasonable ways to attack them to prevent them from beating us.
I'm pretty good with Meta Gaming...
My first match that I studied when I sleeved up my Cruel Control list was Burn; I said it awhile ago that Artifacts/Enchantments are NOT the way to beat Burn.
I said it before any pro said it; but since certain people enjoy the fact that I also like to reference pros; Chapin just wrote an article about his Grixis Control list and finishing 9th at GP:C...
My finding awhile back ago was that Burn decks run anywhere between 5 to 8 "Destroy Enchantment/Artifact Deal Some Damage cards".
It's either Smash to Smithereens or Destructive Revelry for the most part...
I said tapping out for Turn 5 Batterskull just plays right into their hands... tapping out for Turn 6 Wurmcoil Engine plays right into their hands.
If I did give a slight nod to an Artifact that "COULD" in theory get the job done; it would be devoting like 3 slots to Dragon's Claw.
Simply because Dragon's Claw comes down as early as Turn 2; and if you run more than one your chances of getting one to stick are pretty good.
But that's 3 Slots... 3 precious slots; for 1 matchup... I don't like it.
I hated that solution to the problem; I've been saying its all about the Counterspells. Dispel; Flashfreeze/Countersquall.
I also run a 1 of Suffer the Past; because although our Counters certainly help; it's still a close game around Turn 6 or 7; if we don't curve out to Turn 7 Cruel; we are pretty close to death and 1 mistake at mishandling a resource or tapping out taking any kind of chance could cost us...
So I run a 1 of Suffer the Past as a way to help just in case...
So yea; I been saying it for awhile now... Welcome aboard.
The match I'm currently studying is TRON/XX matches... Blue Tron; GR Tron; sure they are vastly different decks; but they still rely on the same weakness; their Mana Base. Successfully neutralize that; and both decks drop down to our level and become much more manageable.
Currently we all disagree about the proper way to attack Tron Decks; but that's ok... I like my way.
Yea we've been discussing it; and I gotta admit; I'm coming around to it as well.
It's easier to get the BOUNCE out of it than Cryptic in a situation where we want/need to bounce Blood Moon; but it also has some much needed Planeswalker Hate if one slips through our Permission Package.
Of all the Planeswalker Hate; I think this is one of the ones that is up there and should be strongly considered.
I'm not talking about the Cheaper Walkers; I'm talking about the big bad ugly ones that are tough to kill with Burn when they resolve... UGIN/KARN.
Silumgar Command I think could really have a home in Modern; so I'm becoming convinced myself.
To take that a step further; you make alot of great cases for your list and card choices; I leave no stone unturned; especially about a deck I'm passionate about.
So I appreciate your perspective and feedback that you bring to this thread.
If this is all you got out of my reply on my reasoning of Fulminator VS Molten Rain; then you're more of an idiot than I thought... I honestly didn't think that was possible; kudos to you sir.
...only confirmed what I already thought; good luck to you.
To be fair; that's IF you're playing Surgical Extraction post board...
From what I can tell; you and I are pretty much the only people that find Value in the Extraction.
What I like to do is attack these decks from all different angles; hit em with Haymaker after Haymaker; after Haymaker....
Let them be worried I have Shadow of Doubt so they opt to not crack Expedition Map until a turn or 2 later with counter backup; let them be worried I have Surgical Extraction; let them be worried I have the Sowing Salt so instead of tapping out they leave mana up always...
All of that plays right into my hands of a Long Game; slowing their building of the Tron/Amulet Blood and allows me to continue to store resources and still have the ability to hit em in alot of different ways.
If they play VS my hate aggressively; then they put the onus on me in being able to use the Right Tool for the Right Situation; and if that's the case? With more practice in the format; I bank on me in the long run.
I think the problem with Molten Rain is what GrixisGuru eluded to; but I could take it another step forward.
It's SORCERY.
So you're either casting it; hitting a Land that potentially doesn't put Amulet Bloom or XX Tron behind all that much at all.
OR: It just rots in your hand; with the idea that you HOPE to Untap and be able to Hit a Land that is relevant to what they're instead of us just sitting there helpless while they drop their last Tron Piece or drop a Tron Piece; and use Expedition Map to fetch up the 3rd one and complete it... I feel like smart Amulet/Tron players can easily play around a Sorcery Speed Molten Rain as opposed to them knowing that a Fulminator Mage is sitting on the table.
With Fulmintaor; I should hope that no one here casts a Fulminator and instantly POPS it and destroys a land.
Having watched Chapin's Coverage Feature Match VS Amulet Bloom; the commentators referenced a conversation with CVM talking about when people played Fulminators VS Him when he was on Amulet Bloom; that too often people mis-play Fulminators and pop them too early.
Chapin being the HOF Pro that he is did not do that; but unfortunately he didn't draw much more gas beyond that to make the Fulminator better and although he played the Fulminator correctly; he still lost.
But the theory is still sound; you want Fulminator; attack with Fulminator to get some damage in; and SAC Fulminator when a great situation presents itself.
Fulminator gives us a bit more flexibility because you can drop it out there and aren't required to POP it immediately; can provide some sneaky points of damage and still synergizes with the rest of our deck.
Where as Molten Rain is Sorcery Speed; so we're either forced to potentially play it EARLY tapping out for it; potentially hitting a land that isn't ideal; or it simply rots in your hand.
So IMO Fulminator > Molten Rain; but with that being said; I think the best plan of attack is Fulminator 3 or 4 with 1 or 2 Sowing Salt.
Sowing Salt provides some permanent inevitability in those Matchups.
Not to mention Sowing Salt can be brought in as a way to exile Darksteel Citadel VS Affinity matchups to help to keep Etched Champion turned off when we've answered everything else...
If we say EXILE and REMOVE their Urza Tower; they no longer get Tron Online and that helps tremendously on how we attack them the rest of the game.
Also; if we use Sowing Salt, it can't be neutralized by Crucible of Worlds; if we are going all in on the Fulminator Plan AND/OR the Molten Rain Plan; people start using Crucibles to play around that.
For my LD Package; I have opted for a 3 Fulminator and 1 Sowing Salt split to go with my Shadow of Doubt and Counter Suite.
All of which has proven to slow down Tron; and gives us good windows to resolve Sowing Salts or to Snapcaster Flash Sowing Salt BACK.
Because let's be honest; if they Assemble Tron; or Assemble alot of their Bounce Lands in Amulet Bloom; we've already lost.
VS these 2 decks; neutralizing their lands is only the first priority of the battle; because these decks have the ability to shift and still cast their threats if we're not careful.
But our Answers become much much better if they don't have Tron or alot of Lands in play. Mana Leaks become a fine reasonable option to counter a tappout attempt for a Karn; or Ugin...
All of our Answers are great so long as we neutralize the mana base.
...good thing for us I don't think any of us try to copy what a pro does; this is a CRUEL Control thread and thus we're building decks with Cruel and trying to think outside the box a little bit.
I think most of us here love Cruel; it's our favorite card to resolve; and that's a big reason why we're playing Modern with it... so coming here and saying we should copy Chapin's list or trying to talk us out of Cruel is pertty much a moot point and shouldn't be made at all.
Thanks for your advice... moving along.
So how'd your Artifact Grixis Cruel version go? lol
...just curious
On the contrary; that's exactly what DoULikeMyUlt1m4tuM said; has been saying; and keeps saying... At the end of the day I take it with a grain of salt because that artifact build is no worse then what I'm rolling with; I've just tried to be nice.
At any rate; if you're thinking that Damnation is needed for Collective Company decks; then I think everyones perception is flawed.
So on Turns 1, 2, 3, and possibly 4 they play creature creature and more creatures... You try to remove their creatures; the big fatty ones or the ones that are key to combos..
So then on Turn 4 you tap out for a Sorcery Speed Damnation and at EOT they Collective Company?
Or let's just say you tap out for a Turn 4 or 5 Damnation; and they still re-build with CoCo and if you're LUCKY hopefully they don't hit 2 of their 3 pieces of the combo and have the 3rd piece sandbagged... cuz if so; now they are free to Combo off while you're tapped out from the precious Damnation that we so desperately need. LOL
So this idea that Damnation is needed because of CoCo decks is flawed... I'd rather pick off 1 for 1 of their creatures, while using my LIFE as a resource VS those Aggro/Midrange decks; Counter/Kill the Goyfs; and/or counter the CoCo all the while slowly using combat tricks, Tasigurs; and Flashing Back my removal to widdle away at their board.
For the big finish... CRUEL stabilization. Cruel is so good that once it resolves; it's a huge swing in the game; fuels your hand for additional hate; gains you a big chunk of life; and puts your opponent behind. That's when the game shifts; we can afford to take some damage early; picking off the big threats; leaving the little threats; preventing the combos....
Then in Game 2 I bring in the Angers for starters; but also I even bring in the Flashfreezes... Zoo Decks; the up coming Vengevine Decks; Burn; GR Tron; all the CoCo decks; Chord; Tooth and Nail... These decks are here; Flashfreeze is great VS all of those.
Let them build up their board; pick off what you can; then either Turn 3 or 5 Anger and wipe their board with Removal/Counter backup.
That's a much more reasonable plan VS CoCo strategies then tapping out for a Damnation for them to just re-stock up with a EOT CoCo and then possibly Combo you out... lol.
And onto the Affinity situation... Lightning Bolts; Electrolyze; Kolaghan's Commands; Terminates; Leaks, Snares all put in work Mainboard VS Affinity.
Then the Anger of the Gods post board cleans the rest up... yet again we are talking about the same issues; Damnation is just too slow; you want to Anger on Turn 3; or Anger on Turn 5 with Backup.
Last time I checked; Affinity wasn't one of our weak matchups; with or without Damnations...
So perhaps I've gotten really really lucky... perhaps I just play my deck and use my tools very well?
Perhaps as suggested my deck isn't competitive; and perhaps I'll find that out once I stop making some play mistakes that cost me games and have that as my excuse.
Perhaps the success I've had in practice; and in my last event is a fluke... Afterall; in my last event I did beat Burn; I did beat a White Aggro Entreat the Angels deck; almost pulled off the win VS Tron; all without Damnations, Batterskulls, Dragon's Claws, Spellskites, Fulminator Mages while using Tasigur/Gurmag, Shadow of Doubts, Leaks and Serum Visions... all the cards that everyone seems to agree stinks.
Hmmmm.... good stuff.
The thing that's interesting to me is that NONE of the other Grixis lists that have placed in the top 8 on SCG: Opens or Invitationals run any Damnations in the 75 either.
What's more interesting is your guys lists are the first lists that have advocated for Damnations.
To be fair; the majority of the creature decks that we have to worry about are wipe-able with Anger of the Gods out of the side.
All the other creature decks turn out to be Combo Decks and so you wouldn't want to tap out for a Turn 4 Wipe as it is.
Thus far; I haven't felt like I needed board sweeps other than Anger of the Gods.
SO I guess It's interesting that it's being said that my list isn't competitive because it lacks Damnation... Tell that to all the Grixis players that have Top 8'ed over the last 3 months or so that also opted to not run Damnation.
Such WIN!!!
I agree with this and this is a very valid thing too.
With so many decks too having access to some very early spells to help them setup; it's very reasonable that we're going to take something pretty significant in the matchup while getting to look at what they're working with.