Thanks Bolas; as far as Surgical VS Extirpate; it's a matter of flexibility to be honest.
I wanted a Turn 0 Option; this card replaced the Tormod's Crypts for me in my list.
Surgical does a little bit more than Extirpate as it can take out Turn 0 Combo decks or even take care of things when I've assumed the coast was clear and went for a Cruel.
Surgical just gives me alot more flesibility with being able to pay 2 life.
VS the Tron Decks; our life total doesn't really matter; if they get Tron Assembled; we're pretty much in trouble.
So casting for example Shadow of Doubt to stop a Expedition Map SEARCH then Surgical Extracting the Map really slowed down my Tron Opponent.
My match yesterday I was very close to stealing GM1 from him even without the Extractions.
I made a bad read and went for a Cruel with my opponent having only 2 mana up and 4 cards in his hand; of course he had the counter.
The turns Prior we got into some minor counter wars over Shadow of Doubt/Snapcasters/Shadow wars; and some other things... so I thought it was a chance worth taking.
If it resolves; I probably steal GM1.
I think I could of been more patient as I had Cryptic and other things going for me in that moment when I made the decision to go for it.
GM2 VS Blue Tron I won; dominated was Surgical Extraction; Sowing Salt; and the Shadow of Doubts; all of those cards, however many all worked well together to get that victory and keep him off balance.
Then in GM3 I was mana screwed and it wasn't even close... SO I feel like I'm almost there...
How many matches did u play against robots, colletc and abzan?
I cant understand why that gurmag isnt the 2nd tasigur
I haven't played enough to greatly answer your first question; as far as matchups and trends I'm seeing. Sorry about that; I don't think it would be good data if I told you matchups right now because of the fact I haven't played enough; and I'm still working my way through being new into Modern again. Although I made less mistakes yesterday; I still made SOME. Specifically in the Tron matchup; the 1 match that I lost.
As far as Gurmag + Tasigur; I really like having BOTH.
Generally I really only want these semi late; maybe MID game... like a Turn 5 or 6ish.
And I would only want 1 Tasigur and 1 Gurmag; as they both play well with each other. Tasigur being Legendary; doesn't really play well with a 2nd Tasigur.
I like being able to drop Tasigur; then follow up maybe the next turn with a Gurmag; activate Tasigur and the GY be really really clean to the point I've really got control over what card my opponent gives me back.
That's all it is; the justification of 1 for 1 split as opposed to 2 Tasigur.
I m really confindent with my 75s now ( maybe i will change idea After those 2 events that i will play on weekend ) but I have a good question.. "especially in a list with 3 discards " can logic knot be more usefully Then mana leak?
That's great!!!
I honestly think that's where we are all at right now...
I like the fact that all of us have for the most part the Grixis SHELL; but also have a bunch of big differences surrounding that shell.
I think it's pretty cool and this is one reason why I think Grixis Cruel "COULD" become a Tier 1 deck because there's a ton of Tools to make it work and we've proven that.
It's just a matter of finding the best combination...
I'm starting to finally feel settled into Modern; took a few weeks; but I played in a Thursday Night Modern Event and I feel like I didn't make too many mistakes; managed to go 2-1; only losing to Mono Blue Tron.
One match I did win and it was a match that I heavily heavily analyzed; it was VS BURN.
2 weeks in a row as it so happens I've been in a position to beat BURN; the first week I made a crucial mistake; but this week I did it.
What I found is it's still an iffy match; and you really need to prioritize your spells and be sure to play your Cantrips/Draw spells at key moments to keep your hand full of answers.
So I'm really comfortable with that matchup now...
With that being said; I won't get into my Tourny report as I still want to get more experience with Modern and then get into bigger events; but as such with DoULikeMyUlt1m4tuM; I'm comfortable and confident in my list going forward.
Burn everywhere so I set some snares for those fire happy mofos
First; GOOD LUCK!!!
Second; I think you should put a bit of variance with your Counter suite...
If you're expecting tons of BURN; then I would absolutely not go 4 Spell Snares.
Burn decks have a ton of 1 and 3 Drop Spells as well as the 2s.
Also; Burn decks generally aren't great on Mana; so Mana Leaks easily are ONLINE VS Them as well.
Mana Leak although not super popular with the masses turns out to be great VS the majority of most fields; with a few matchups it's not the greatest.
But even in the matchups Mana Leak isn't the greatest; if our game plans work; IE: VS Tron to attack their Searching or Lands; then it does mean that Mana Leak does become a tool we can use if they aren't getting TRON assembled.
So I would -2 Spell Snare and do +2 Mana Leak at the very least.
Third; I think you have way too much removal... You have 4 Terminate; plus 2 Edict; plus 2 Damnation; plus the Bolts and COmmands and Electorlyze.
I really don't think you need that much removal.
I think you could easily drop down to 2 Terminates if you're content with the Edicts; afterall you do run 4 Snapcasters so you really only need to see 1 or 2 of these spells to still get MAX value out of them.
Fourth; I think your list has all the right tools to get the job done; but I fear the problem is going to be you're stuck with a hand full of Removal or Useless Counters; with no real way to LOOT or Draw Cards early to try and mold your hand; I think you could easily Tune the list; cut a few little things and add some Anticipates or Serum Visions.
I know no one likes Serum Visions except for me I think; and it took me a long while to get on board with it... so if Visions isn't your preference; then I think you could go along way with ANTICIPATE.
If you have a hand full of Removal/Counters; then Anticipate digs up Win Cons.
If you have a hand full or removal; Anticipate can dig up Counters; or help smooth your land drops out.
I think you'd be doing yourself a diservice if you don't fine tune things just a bit and add some kind of package of Anticipates or something.
A card that I think also could be solid in your list; if you're not a fan of Anticipate or Visions; Gitaxian Probe?
It's Sorcery sure; it's a Cantrip; and in some matchups you can easily just do the 2 Life to leave up counter magic or prior to Cruel and see what your opponent is packing and mold your plan of attack based on that info.
EDIT:Fifth; I gotta say; I'm not a big fan of Chandra in Modern. I love her right now in Standard; but in Modern? Not so much...
I would highly recommend a 2nd Jace if you have it.
I was running just 1 Jace; and the list that won the MODO Daily 4-0 ran 2; so last night I ran 2 and it was amazing.
I think because our Top End of the Deck is resolving a 7CMC Cruel; I think Jace really helps big time to either keep us fueled with Answers; Lands; or helps us get to Cruel or get cards that will get us to Cruel.
That's just my opinion; by all means if you like it the way it is; again I sincerely wish you the best of luck.
I think once we start to see more Cruel lists hitting in Top 8's and winning Dailies and/or smaller events; we'll start to see Cruel break out and we'll have more information to process.
EDIT: Sideboard Suggestions First; I gotta assume Batterskulls are VS Burn; I wouldn't do it... Batterskulls I think honestly right now are just not positioned very well right now VS the majority of the field.
With all the Kolaghan's Commands around now; and the BURN decks running anywhere between 5 to 8 Artifact or Enchantment destruction spells; I don't think I want to take the chance of Tapping out on Turn 5 for a Artifact that is supposed to "Save" me in that much. I don't know about the rest of you; but on Turn 5 VS BURN; I'm generally 1 or 2 Turns away from Death. If I tap out for a 5 CMC Artifact; I'm probably dead if they have the Smash to Smithereens or Destructive Revelry; I just helped them finish. It's like when you have Draconic Roars in your hand in a STD match; you're just dying for your opponent to play a little creature so you can 3 - 3 it and get max value from it. I've analyzed the Burn match to great detail; and I just don't think that's the way to go.
Last night I tried a combination of the Flashfreeze + Dispel and a Suffer the Past and I beat Burn; had a nice group watching too and another Grixis player came up to me last night and wanted to pick my brain on the Burn matchup.
Just a thought...
Beyond that; I don't have many issues with the SB; you're meta gaming the event; so I can't really argue to much with the rest of the choices.
I'd say as far as Grixis Decks go; here's how I'd rank them currently.
#1. Grixis Delver --> Just seems to be the strongest of them all so far; it's consistent; also plays Young Pyromancer; it's a very solid Grixis deck I think.
#2. Grixis Twin --> Another very strong Grixis list; but it is built around an infinite Combo and that's what can also make it weak.
#3. Grixis Moon --> This is the Grixis Conrol list that runs mainboard Blood Moon and Vedalken Shackles. TO be fair to this one; this one might even be #1 just because it's positioned very good right now currently. But I'm biased against this deck because of Mainboard Blood Moon.... LOL
#4. Grixis Control --> There's a new Control Grixis list popping up; runs Tasigur/Gurmag; Young Pyromancer; NO Delver NO Mainboard Blood Moon NO Twin Combo. A few of the win conditions are swapped around between all of the builds; but primarily it's a Young Pyromancer deck.
Those are the only Grixis lists that I really know of... I researched ALL the Grixis lists heavily before I settled on my shell and started posting on this thread.
I don't even put Grixis Cruel Control on the list because well let's be honest... CURRENTLY it's not Tier 1; some believe it never will be; while others think it's still early in development and alot of us are still trying different things while for the most part we all agree on the core shell.
I still think it could be Tier 1 and the handful of us here that are working on it are just a little ahead of the curve.
I think it'll be a matter of time till we start seeing a few CRUEL Control lists start popping up.
People keep telling me that CRUEL costs too much and it'll never be Tier 1 in Modern...
Yet; I'm seeing more and more each day Control decks stepping outside of those narrow minded boxes and people going with Elspeth which is a 6 CMC or higher.
I think the ones that have been active over the last few weeks too with Grixis Cruel can attest; that it is possible to out wit; out smart; out play your opponent and CONTROL the game for 6 Turns and Cruel easily on Turn 7.
And I have to say; thus far in playing various matchup;s CRUEL is still powerful enough that when it does Resolve; it's a Game Changer.
I don't think there's a Modern deck in the format that can just smile at Cruel and still win... sure; the first resolution of Cruel doesn't always WIN right there; but the card just does an amazing job at swinging games back in our favor. With the Card Draw and Life; our Win% rises dramatically.
With Snapcasters; it makes casting your 2nd or 3rd Cruel even more likely....
So that's my opinion on it... It's not going to stop me from trying and working on it; Cruel is the reason I am back in Modern.
And here's what I perceive to be the core shell...
Creatures:
3-4 Snapcaster Mage
Spells:
2 Cruel Ultimatum - For the Cruel builds.
2-4 Cryptic Command
2-3 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
0-2 Remand
4 Lightning Bolt
1-3 Electrolyze
1-3 Kolaghan's Command
2-3 Terminate
Lands: 24-25
Beyond this; alot of the decks start to look fairly different... but for the most part we all agree on the above Tools to get the job done.
1st of all; someone said that the Cruel Plan is an unwindable card; that the strategy is not competitive; and it'll never be Tier 1.
...athough a showing like this doesn't suggest that any of that is less TRUE; I do believe with all the feedback that we've all brought to the table; AND this tells us that Cruel can be a winning plan and that the strategy hasn't really been fully tapped into yet and so it's unclear if it can be Tier 1.
2nd; GrixisGuru says this list is a few cards off his 60; for mine it's about 9 or so cards off my 60. So I do think there's somethings we can learn here.
Pretty sure too; that this 4-0 list isn't too far off Dwarf's list; I don't recall seeing a list from Bolas ina while so I am unsure how close he is.
Interesting stuff...
3rd; anyone a little shocked that he's on CRUEL plan with only 24 lands??? LOL I mean I am a little shocked because he's not running the full 4 Serum Visions and it feels like he's not running as many draw/cantrip spells as we do. I think 25 lands is just fine; and with more draw 24 could be ok? So I'm not greatly shocked; but a little...
If I minus the liliana's from my deck and add serum Visions our decks are practically the same 60 cards. lol
Yea man props; I am not convinced that this is a list that we should all suddenly adopt and mirror the 75; but at the same time I think we can pull some information from this list and look try to analyze why it was successful and go from there.
I'm approx 9 cards off this list; but I really like where my list is at as a WHOLE... I'm going to drop Vendilion Clique from my mainboard; and make a few other minor adjustments too.
I'm going to keep Keranos in my main simply due to that being just a META call.
So I've got a few adjustments I'm going to make and this list helps justify a few of the things I was thinking.
I mean I've used it as a one of beefore...and it was fine...I agree that it is a high variance card and when you are winning it is the best card in the deck...when you are losing it is the worst card in the deck..just like running discard spells in the main.
Now there's the problem of finding another foil Shadow of Doubt...lol
They aren't too cheap neither; and with the last Invitation of GR Tron and Amulet being so good; I do believe I've noticed they've gone up a little bit.
Luckily I have my 2 Foils already!!! PHEW!
But; Bolas is running x4 in his 75.... crap!!! I might want 1 or 2 more now. LOL
I'm convinced that surgical extraction may have a sideboard spot.. I also will be up for trying out the main board shadow's... So pulling it altogether I think will leave me with something like this...What do you all think?
I'll warn you though; temper your expectations with Shadow of Doubt; I only say this because you've not been one to be on it's high praises like myself or Bolas has been.
There will be times it's not great; and all it ever ends up being is a Cantrip.
But there will be times where it feels like a total Blow Out; stopping a Fetch or stopping a Search from a Tron or Amulet player or something. It sets them back quite of bit if it stifles the Fetch/Search; it just seems to take their SOUL... take their HEART. LOL
I run x2 in the Main knowing that more often then not the first one probably only ends up being a Cantrip; but the 2nd one ends up being a Snapcaster Flashback Shadow of Doubt.
I'm ok with those expectations... for someone that doesn't normally run it; that hasn't been high on the card; you may feel it to be lackluster and easily dropped; so just give it a chance; all I'm saying.
I know how good it is when it hits; and at worse it's another Cantrip in a deck that already has like 9 more. I'm ok with that.
Yeah that counter suite looks good to me. I've found that I'm usually trying to counter non-creature spells most of the time.
I have four Shadow of Doubt in my 75. The advantage we get from screwing up a land drop is HUGE.
It also helps against tron and amulet as MrRotten has pointed out.
WOW! Good God man! x4 in the 75!? I LOVE IT!!! lol
Me personally; I probably would go 3 tops, but I have 2 in my main now... (Both Foils) lol
I'm going to try this counter package probably after this weeks event... going to give my lateast list another go round and then we'll make a few minor tweeks.
For my intent at the moment is to try and have as versatile a maindeck as possible and have great options in the sideboard.
Agreed; that's exactly what I'm trying to do as well... I think the Tasigur/Gurmag package does exactly this; make the deck Flexible and gives me an alternate game plan to play around Blood Moon while also giving me an option to play a Longer Game if I have to against other decks.
Like right now I think vendilion clique in the main is less good than it used to be so I'm considering cutting it, if I do I easily have space for a 3rd Fulminator Mage. Not to say that clique is always bad it's just really easy to take care of at the moment.
I've noticed the latest round of Grixis Lists on these Articles and they have opted to drop Vendilion Clique from the 75 all together; while I don't know how I feel about that; I am close to cutting it myself.
The issue I have with cutting it has NOTHING to do with Magic or Matchups; it's simply it took me alot to get the 1 copy that I have; it's not a cheap card; I'd hate to have splurged for it and now not be running it.
That's the only argument I have on the PRO side of the Vendilion argument; I admit it.. LOL
I can also see the merit of countersquall in our real bad matches like I'm sure it helps out our tron match immensely because a hard counter against them is actually fantastic where mana leak has it's limits. Of usually dead after the 4th tron land. It's probably even alright against bloom titan but I've never had mana leak be terrible in that match because of them always jamming their cards when they can. The burn match it's probably close to a tie..collected company decks aren't probably a little better against us if we can't counter the combo creature but I can see the upside.
I agree; I haven't felt thus far that Mana Leak has been really terrible... the way I see it if you allow Tron to Search up it's Pieces; and they get the Tron online; or they not only get the Tron online and also get their Winconditions; then we are doing something wrong and we're probably going to lose that battle anyways. Mana Leak or not...
I feel like the best way to attack those decks is to stifle their Searching; with Shadow of Doubts and Snapcasting them back. Along with timely Land Destruction like Fulminator Mages or Sowing Salts. I feel like if we have a good strong gameplan to stifle their attempts to get Tron Online and/or their Winconditions; then Mana Leak actually does turn out to be solid.
If we for example kill their Tron and they can't get it online; now they play a much more fairer game.. Tapping out 7 whole lands to cast a Karn for example... or 8 for an Ugin... If they have NO Tron; then Mana Leaks become amazing IMO against them as all their winconditions are Permanants that require a ton of mana and generally they're tapping out for them if Tron isn't Online.
That's why I said; Timely Shadow of Doubts to say stop a Exploration Map; or to stop a Search for an Artifact for example really puts them behind the clock... Imagine if you Shadow of Doubt their first crack at Exploration Map; then they cast another and we Snapcaster the 2nd Attempt? Mmmmm; that really should hurt......
My 2ndary plan is Surgical Extraction; a insanely undervalued and underutilized card in Modern in my opinion; it's underrated big time...
Perhaps Surgical Extraction isn't as good on it's OWN; but when you're running a Permission Package; or Discard Package; or Shadow of Doubt; or hell even Fulminator Mages in the mainboard for Non Basics; then you pay 2 life and follow it up with a Surgical Extraction???? That's more flexible and more reasonable than thinking we're going to Sowing Salt.
I'm very high on Surgical Extraction right now with our Snapcasters... 2 mana? Play Snapcaster; target Surgical Extraction and pay 2 life and cast it to nail something hardcore.
The flexibility is great! I like it better than Tormod's Crypt; I like it better againt Goryo's Vengeance decks; Amulet; Tron... I think it has alot of merit to what we're doing in Cruel Control.
I do think there is merit to shadow of doubt in the main with the Fulminator Mage. My problem is I don't necessarily want to cut my discard completely. I understand sacrifices must be made in order to improve the deck I may be at the point of cutting thoughtseize and a land for two shadow off doubt which may be greedy but it might be for the best. Worst case scenario I think I may squeeze thoughtseize in the board.
It's interesting that I've been a big advocate for Shadow of Doubt and now if you look/read alot of the Modern Articles on SCG; anyone running Blue seems to be getting high on it's merit too...
If you expect alot of TRON decks after this past Invitational since GR Tron won it; or even Amulet decks having come in 2nd... then Shadow of Doubt is right where you want to be; and in private I've made a case for Shadow of Doubt slots being more important than mainboard Fulminators. lol
However; with Chapin's Land Destruction Grixis deck; I really like that he's ALL in on the whole plan and it's pretty nifty looking if you ask me...
I can't think of too many Modern Decks that aren't running some Fetches and/or Non Basics. So you're bound to screw most matches over; and sure; there are a few matchups where they run Fetches with little to no non basics... or the other way around; no Fetches with tons of Non Basics... either way; there's bound to be options to screw with the mana base.
Well I look at most modern decks and they run more spells than creatures more often than not. Countersquall has outperformed Mana Leak for me so far. I have enough kill spells to deal with resolved creatures in my 75.
You do have Liliana, so you don't need the playset of terminate if your meta has less midrange lurking around.
I will never run Mana Leak because late game it does nothing for me, Rune Snag is better. However, Rune Snag requires more card slots.
I agree; if you're on the Liliana plan; then you could probably easily get away with 2 or 3 Terminates; and not need to run all 4.
With that said; You have a great point about Countersqual VS Mana Leak. Alot of times I don't need to counter Creatures with those spells... The Spell Snares hit Goyf; and Mana Leaks are more for the Spells or CoCo.
That might not be a terrible way to go... drop down to 2 Mana Leak slots and just swap them for Countersqualls...
BEFORE:
x2 Crytpic Command
x3 Mana Leak
x2 Spell Snare
so I know no one like my tap out Grixis list....but all crtiicism's neagative or positive shall be considered and thanks for any that take time to reply.
GrixisGuru; you know my stance on your list... I like it as far as Tap Out lists go; it's one of my favorite lists if my list proves to flop even if I play it perfectly.
With that said; you also know my only issue I feel with it is the mainboard Thoughtseize/IOKs; I think I'd rather Shadow of Doubts at the very least.
You saw the Land Destruction Grixis deck that Chapin posted in his most recent article; while I agree with your point that going ALL IN on Fulminator and Kolaghan's Commands will have it's matchups where that's going to be bad; I do think you'll go along way to going with a card that just does more; or atleast Cantrips like Shadow of Doubt > Thoughtseize/IOK.
With the Land Destruction being a side angle of attack in your list; casting Shadow of Doubt to Fetch Screw your opponent; then pop a Fulminator seems like you'd put alot of opponents so far behind against us; which also makes cards like Mana Leak stronger as they won't have the extra lands to pay it.
In the current meta the full set of Terminate is wise. Goyfs, Rhinos and Elves oh my!
As far as Countersquall; I really like it; just not sure where I want it... either in the Side or Main.
When it comes to the rest of the counters that I have in my Main; Mana Leak for example... When it's good; it's really really really good; even GREAT. But when it's bad; it's really really really bad; THE WORST.
I think in more matchups than not; Mana Leak is still definitely the best option we have.
And with so many decks running some very big time 2 CMC Cost Modern Staples; Spell Snare I think is pretty dang good too.
The one Counter slot that I don't like is Remand; and I've opted to cut it for a 2nd Kolaghan's Command.
And of course Cryptics are amazing... it's widely debated if it should be 2 of; or a 3 of; or even some run 4.
I think with how speedy decks are and how alot of Modern decks are full of Turn 1-3 plays; I think 2 or 3 Cryptics is where we want to be at; 4 is too many.
With that all being said; I like my counter package; I don't always "LOVE" it; but I like it.
Out of the Side I bring in Flashfreeze and Dispel and Counterflux to clean up some of the areas where the Counter Package limits us.
So again; it's hard for me to justify Countersqual. I almost want it over the Dispels in my side; but then I can think of many times I want that 1 CMC Counter Spell in Counter Wars; or to protect Tasigur when I drop him being able to leave up 1 Blue for example... So I don't know.
On the topic of Terminate; I still don't know that 4 is right; but you can't go wrong... I say this is META dependent.
I was one of the people running 3 from the very beginning and alot of people telling me 3 was too many.... now we're talking of going up to 4.
I'm all for it; but I'll stick with 3 for now; I think 3 with Snapcasters is pretty good with a 4th or other removal in the side to bring in VS the Zoo Decks we want it against.
Beyond that; there's 3 lists that I love so far over the past 5 or 6 pages...
GrixisGuru semi Tap Out List.
UndeadDwarf's Draw Go heavy Control focused list.
And my own...
Not a fan of the Artifact builds; but again if they work can't hate on it.
And any lists that don't run Cruels; just plainly shouldn't be posted in this thread.
I just think Cruel Ultimatum is too restrictive to be competitive enough, mostly because Blood Moon ruin all plans if it get past. And other reasons mentioned before.
Even if I totaly love the spell and I think it's powerfull.
Abusing it in EDH is fun for exemple (Like with Izzet Chronarch,Archaeomancer and Mnemonic Wall with wraths and time walks in Jeleva, keep wrathing the board and playing free spells while recurring a cruel when you can tons of fun for me at least ...)
EDIT: What do you mean by "can't be replace" ?
You do realize this is a Modern Category; and a Cruel Control thread right?
And to your points; Cruel Ultimatum is still a powerful tool I agree; and once it resolves it still carries the weight of being a death blow in any matchups.
Generally you resolve the first one; your chances of winning are much much higher and it leads right into the 2nd casting of the spell.
Also; let's just call it what it is for some of us too... it's the challenge of casting it and taking over the game that is the thrill.
It's such a powerful card; it's a TRUE Control win condition... control the game for 6 Turns; jam a spell that completely and utterly shifts the game so drastically that we now are on path to victory.
IDK; I mean I'm on this Thread cuz Cruel is my favorite card; and I'm developing a list with Cruels.... isn't that the point?
As far as Blood Moon; I've analyzed and researched and dug dug dug... Blood Moon doesn't really bother us till we get to Turn 7 and want to cast Cruel.
Atleast for my list; I have other things going for me besides Cruel.
Tasigur, the Golden Fang; Gurmag Angler; Keranos, God of Storms; BURN... This is a big reason why I have opted to keep these packages; it provides the deck much needed midrange game just in case the Cruel Path doesn't pan out. Not to mention it also provides alot of utility to go LONG if we get pushed to that direction.
I don't always need to win by resolving Cruel and I think that's the best way to play the deck.
And fact is; I can cast all of those above threat while still playing around Blood Moon. All those Creatures I just named; Only need just 1 Swamp and 1 Island to resolve all of those.
That's it...
Come time for Turn 7; do a EOT Turn 6 Cryptic Command; Bouncing Blood Moon to their hand; into Turn 7 CRUEL and force them to discard it.
Blood Moon honestly doesn't feel like it'll be that bad ever if we're playing our game right; and really that's what Modern is all about... skilled lines of play and impeccable decision making...
I've learned alot by studying how we play around it... if I see Red on my opponents side; I just plan immediately from the start that they're going to Blood Moon me.
So I line up Islands and Swamps any chance I can fetch them... Serum Visions and the SCRY Action certainly also helps to get Multiple Islands/Swamps Basics.
Blood Moon although annoying is just that; an annoyance and I just know to shift my focus for awhile.... it's just that simple.
I'm to the point now that I"m feeling very comfortable against any matchups that intend to try and BLOOD MOON hate us out... because generally if that's their plan; they think once they resolve that; they can rest on that plan and put too much confidence in the card... meanwhile we still keep plugging away; killing a creature here or there; not really being forced to do much of anything... because some of the decks that play Blood Moon also end up hurting themselves too... It's a chance they take... we keep plugging away; still able to drop my threats like Tasigur; Gurmag; Keranos... needing only 1 Island to sit behind that and protect.... and sure; I hit my Engineered Explosives and destroy it; or Bounce Blood Moon and CRUEL.
I welcome the tech... just like Grafdigger's Cage; buddy of mine thinks that really hurts us... lol It doesn't.
Unfortunatly if a control player make a mistake too often it cost to him the game/match.
for that we need to test much then another player, and we need too much focus in every play and move.
During this week I continue to test my new deck with few artifacts and 3x Thirst for knowledge.
On saturday I will play a small 10$ tournament , after which I will decide which Kindle of List I play on sunday at PPTQ . (I will write a report of both)
Atm I m really happy with thirstList but I don't test it so much. And for SURE an Anger of the Gods md will be better then an engineered explosives, but I need some artifacts and I don't know what leave for my mainDeckAnger.
I don't feel like having all these Artifacts that really don't do much against our opponents just to make 1 Card better is really worth going down that road?
IDK: maybe I'm wrong.
But hey; I mean if it works for you it works; I'm not one to be negative about anyones ideas or thought process if it's working for you.
It's just def not for me; like the Tasigur/Gurmag stuff isn't for you.
Let us know how it goes... I'm interested to hear.
I talked with people and the idea came out of trying a Blood Moon/vedalken Shackles build with more basics ... not sure about this but might give it a try online.
Not sure about Extirpate either ... felt useless a lot but shyned when it was good.
Thanks for reading !
If you look at like the last 20 SCG Events for Modern; Grixis has had about 3 different versions going for it.
1.) Twin
2.) Delver
3.) Blood Moon/Shackles
BUT: alot of us are on the belief that Grixis is good because of Kolaghan's Command so the Shells stay fairly close to the same; but the Win Conditions can be different.
Me personally; I don't like Blood Moon Mainboard; but yea it's definitely a Deck.
If we opt for any of the NON Cruel lists; I think I'd move in the direction of the Young Pyromancer, Olivia, Keranos, Tasigur list myself.
I think the Young Pyromancer Control lists are actually really well position and insanely flexible with Kolaghan's Command.
BUT: With that being said; this is a CRUEL thread; and I'm back in Modern because I wanted to play my favorite Magic card of all time -- CRUEL; so I'm not giving in to the peer pressure or giving up on Cruel so soon to me being back into Modern.
I personally think; if you look at the Modern events SCG has listed over this past week; there's alot of new Grixis CONTROL lists that have popped up; I think it's a matter of time before people start trying to jam Cruels to see if it can work.
I think we're just ahead of the game.... KUDOS to us!
And with that being said; I'm settling; have settled on this list now... For the most part the list is the same; but I was swapping a few cards here and there all around but now I'm settled.
The sideboard is pretty settled and stable now too...
I too have been making alot of mistakes that have cost me in Modern already too; but when I re-play things in my head I believe I had the advantage everytime had I just played things correctly.
So I need to grind Modern; learn the format; and it helps to have a stable list and not be taking a knee jerk reaction every week and dismantling and re-building...
NOTES:
1.) Shadow of Doubt I've been known to run x1 mainboard; and the other slot this past event was a 3rd Cruel; which turned out to be tooooo greedy. I did the math; and instead of a 3rd Cruel I wanted another 1 or 2 CMC Cantrip/Draw or Counterspell. I decided I didn't want another Counter; so I wanted a Cantrip/Draw spell. So I was going to go with x2 Anticipate to go with the x4 Serum Visions and the rest of the other Cantrips/Draw. But then I decided that Anticipate really just Cantrips; it replaces itself; sure it digs down 3 cards deep to replace it self; but I felt I wanted something that was more powerful and that could help me in my Matchups. So I opted for Shadow of Doubt x2 in the slot instead. Shadow of Doubt still cantrips; sure it doesn't dig 3 cards deep; but what it does do in many situations is it stifles an opponent from Searching their Library... Whether it be they are Fetching a Land to Color Fix themselves; or they are Searching for UrzaTron; or the Artifact or Wincondition to combo off. Or they're Transmutting... So you're stopping them early from doing that and then Cantripping. I feel that mode of Shadow of Doubt makes it better than just digging 3 cards deep and then replacing itself. Sure there maybe times I'm going to just Cycle Shadow of Doubt and that's ok. Because then we have Snapcaster; and the moment your opponent plays a Fetch; or plays Search Spell; stifle it and Cantrip again. I think the flexibility is pretty great; and the moment you stop that search can really give us the time we need for Cruels. Add in the fact that if we stop them from Searching early; we are now pushing some of these decks to combo off a little later which plays better with the counter permission suite.
2.) Tasigur, the Golden Fang + Gurmag Angler I know the Tasigur/Gurmag package is a debated topic; while some like it and are running it; others don't. I get that; I think there's merit of both arguments. I'm staying in the Tasigur/Gurmag camp; for now. I haven't given my list a fair shot because of the mistakes I keep making; so I'm going to keep grinding it out till I feel more comfortable with the format and I can truly evaluate my card choices properly. I do know that everytime I cast Tasigur; or Gurmag; I'm dropping out a big enough creature that blocks the heck out of Goyf or other bigger creatures... even smaller creatures; it's a road block. Perhaps one of my issues when I play Zoo is I focus a bit too heavily on Goyf and need to focus more on the COMBO. At any rate; I really like what both of these guys bring; and then in the longer Grindy games; what Tasigur does to keep giving us fuel to get there.
Other than that; everything else stays pretty much the same...
Mainboard Considerations: I picked up a few of these; I want to hear thoughts if you guys don't mind?
The only thing about this deck that I feel "CAN" be inconsistent or awkward; other than me just flat out being dumb and making mistakes...
...it's the COUNTER Permission suite
I've gone back quite of few pages back to see what other things have been discussed before we got here; I admit I didn't read every page there's over 100.... but somethings caught my eye. Spell Blast - I like Spell Blast; seems pretty flexible and gets stronger as the game goes.
Disrupting Shoal - My favorite card out of these 3 potential considerations. This can be a Turn 0 counter spell. For example; your opponent plays Goryo's Vengeance and tries to combo off Turn 1; I remove say Shadow of Doubt or Mana Leak/Remand and counter the spell and prevent a Turn 1 win. Or how about your opponent thinks the coast is clear to cast a Expedition Map; and I remove a Serum Visions or Spell Snare to counter the 1 CMC Artifact. There's many examples of things that can happen; and let's be honest too; as the game goes a bit longer; it's reasonable to expect just straight up casting this to counter alot of things.
Logic Knot - I'm not sure how much of a fan I am of this; I seen Grimble running it; because I'm already running Tasigur/Gurmag; it could delve those out... But then; Logic Knot could go along way to assist in keeping the GY cleaner so that I have greater control over what Tasigur brings back. But again; perhaps we don't even need to Delve with this; just cast it straight up as the game goes longer.
I picked up a few of these each; I'd like to give them each a try; not all of them at the same time; I feel like they each would take the same slot that I free up for them... I'd probably drop down to 2 Mana Leaks; and maybe 1 Spell Snare to make room for any 2 of the above and try them out. I'm leaning more towards Disrupting Shoal for my list.
SIDEBOARD: As I said; I feel my sideboard is now going to pretty much stay settled; I'm happy with everything I have... one area I think I may need to improve perhaps might be the Land Destruction; but the way I see it; I don't know that I want to go too all in on Land Destruction against some of those special decks like TRON or Amulet because they're hella resilient and if we focus too much on their lands and controlling their lands; we still end up getting beat down by a Thragtusk or losing to a Karn anyways. So I wanted to becareful a bit... with Shadow of Doubt mainboard; the other counters; bringing in some other things; I feel as though I can control things to some degree; while digging and landing haymakers like Slaughter Games or Sowing Salts to nail em.
All in all; even with my mistakes; I've seen some really good things from the list and I'm still hella encouraged that I'm going down a good path for this deck.
I still got alot to learn about Modern; just kinda fumbling my way through it...
First 2 rounds was riddled with Mistakes; in the 2nd round however the Mistake cost me the Match.
So that was disappointing...
Oh and it as it turned out; another mistake was trying to go 3 CRUELS. IN the testing prior to the event the Visions, Cantrips, Mulldrifter, Keranos, Jace all helped to get me to 7 and Cruel consistently... But of course; come Event time; all that smoothness was GONE and I ran into lots of issues. So yea; 2 Cruels going forward from here.
I'm not even sure if it's worth to do a little report; but I will...
LOSS 0-2 VS Abzan Combo CoCo Zoo
-Both games he combos off; first game I know I kept a bad hand; and tapped out for a Tasigur at around Turn 4 or 5 and left him wide open to Combo off for Infinite Life.
-Game 2 he combo'ed off; BUT: this time I was smart enough to not tap out; had the removal in hand; but didn't see the combo till I let it "Resolve" then tried to kill the combo; and in response he combos off and goes Infinite.
-I learned alot about how this deck worked though; and I gotta believe that this matchup is INSANELY FAVORABLE for us with all our 2 Damage Burn Spells + Lightning Bolts + Terminates and our Counter Spells. Just feels like we are heavily stacked against alot of the creatures they're using; not to mention the Angers of the Gods and the Flashfreezes that I brought in against him.
-I just flat out didn't see how he would combo and just flat out fell asleep at the wheel with this one... #LessonsLearned
LOSS 1-2 VS BURN
-Game 1 he casts Boros Charm with 1 other card in his hand. I LEAK it; force him to tap the other 3 Lands to let it resolve; so he's tapped out but he has me to 1 life; he's sitting at 8; I battled through a few missed land drops; we are on Turn 8; I'm sitting at like 5 lands; so I'm way off CRUEL at this point; he passes the Turn; and suddenly it hit me.... I Lightning Bolt him EOT; Untap; hit him with Electrolyze then Draw; then I cast Serum Visions to DRAW again and SCRY 2. I see a Lightning Bolt on the SCRY; luckily I had a Jace in play so I down tick Jace and get the Bolt and finish the game.
-Game 2 was much much more uglier... The Flashfreezes, Spell Snares and Mana Leaks are putting in alot of work though!!! Snapcaster into Spell Snares... Yes please! I felt like I had complete control of the game; but it's still a close battle...
-Then; I made a FATAL Mistake... THE MISTAKE: So on his turn he casts Eidolon; I had 2 mana open and a Snapcaster in my hand with a Jace. No other answer to deal with Eidolon; so I in response cast Snapcaster targeting NOTHING so that I could prevent him from attacking me and gave me a blocker atleast. Knowing I can't do Snapcaster with Eidolon resolved; so I do it. I think that was the CORRECT part of the play.
-I untapped; took my turn; drew a CRUEL. But I was 1 Red Source away from being able to cast Cruel to stabilize and win. So what do I do? The only stupidest thing possible; I cast JACE; and UP TICK????? I up ticked thinking it would make his Eidolon Smaller making it so that my Snapcaster lived... We all know that won't be the case either way; but I made the mistake an Up Ticked. I should of Down Ticked; which would of gotten me the Red Source I needed THAT TURN. I would of had to play it Tapped though to take no damage but that would of given me CRUEL the next turn. So then he takes his turn; bolts me; drops me to 2. I take my Turn; draw my Red Source; and I can't play it UNTAPPED or I lose. So I'm left with the decision to play it Tapped and Pass again. He of course top decks the Boros Charm to steal the game.
-To be fair; I stole Game 1 and he stole Game 2.... but yea; and Game 3 I was stuck on 3 lands and removal with no Blue Sources. Probably a BAD KEEP.
WIN 2-1 VS Goryo's Vengeance Combo
-Game 1; combo'ed off Turn 3; GG.
-Game 2; I bring in the Tormod's Crypts; the Dispels; Counterflux; Slaughter Games. I get the Dispels; and Spell Snares; and Mana Leaks; I somehow got into a Zone even after my Round 2 Mistakes; and played perfectly; countering the right stuff; answering the right stuff; GG.
-Game 3; much of the same; although it's debatable apparently a few of the decisions I made that ended up working out; but I still think I had the right line of play and thought process.
So it's hard for me to truly tell what I have as far as a deck yet because I'm still making alot of mistakes... but; when I play things out in my head; and if I had done things right; I feel like all 3 of those decks I coulda beat.
VS the Abzan Coco Zoo Deck; we got so much removal main board that hates them out... Should be a walk in the park?
VS the Burn deck; the Flashfreezes were amazing; I admit in GM3 although I was mana screwed; I had the Butcher's Glee in my hand and kept although I prob shoulda mulled. I hate mulling..... I really wanted so bad to see what that card could do.... I didn't get to see how it would do; I was mana screwed and didn't get a creature to play; so I don't know if it would of worked. In hindsight after the match; seeing what he was gripping; I do sincerely believe it would of worked had I gottan any of my bigs to drop on the board. Perhaps I need a Lifegain option that doesn't require the Creature; maybe just some Instant Speed spell that gains life on it's own... I sincerely believe that Ench/Art Life Gain is not the option though even still. But the Flashfreezes were boss.
VS the Combo Deck; I again feel there's alot of hate here and we can stop that deck... The issue is if it combos off Turn 1 which it can.... I don't know how we stop a Turn 1 Combo Off. The only way I think is with Tormod's Crypt; but if they're using the Breech Combo; then I think we're just screwed.
I'm happy with what I saw of the deck still; I think once I get through the growing pains of being a newbie to the format; things will get much better.
1.) I'm still going with the Tasigur/Gurmag Delve direction; just devoting less to the package; they are great on their own right and don't need to be dropped Turn 2 I don't think.
We have Terminates and Counters to manage most early bigs; and plenty of early spells and Fetches that make Tasigur and Gurmag easy a Turn 4 or 5 expectation.
2.) I'm opting for 3 Cruels; in testing although I know alot of people don't like Serum Visions; Serum Visions has actually been testing well and keeping the top deck live with either the Lands or Support. I've been smoothly hitting Turn 7 Cruel; and that's really what we want to be doing. Everything from Turns 1 - 6 is designed to Control/Answer and Stall your opponent. Once the first Cruel resolves; usually it's all good from there for us. So I'm going to try it.
3.) Keranos is back in my mainboard; I'm going to give him a REAL try. I've had it in my main before; and was always apprehensive to cast it on Turn 5 fearing alot of things that are quite frankly UNKNOWN because I'm unfamiliar with the format. And almost every time I feared "Something" and "Nothing" happened... I like Turn 5 Keranos I think more often then not; because then on Turn 6 and 7 he's going to help us possibly hit our Lands to ensure a Turn 7 Cruel. Also; having watched the Twitch Coverage of SCG: INV for Modern this week; Keranos just seems really boss and so I want to make sure I give it a fair shake and not discount it.
4.) My sideboard has some interesting different things; some of it is quite honestly either for TESTING or because I don't have EVERYTHING that I would like to have if it was a perfect world...
Flashfreeze --> I really really like this option; I had it in my list originally but then dropped it when I saw NO ONE running it. But the more and more I look at this card; and consider the meta game in which I play; I think Flashfreeze still could end up being my best sideboard slot. Hoses Zoo decks; Hoses the hell out of Burn decks; I plan to side out some of the narrow Counters for the 3 Flashfreezes to bolster the permission package in those matchups. I think it'll be really good.
Butcher's Glee --> An odd ball for sure!!! It almost was Jorubai Murk Lurker... LOL So I looked at all the Burn decks that have made Top 8s over the last few months; every single one of them run anywhere between 5 to 7 Enchantment/Artifact kill cards. ALL of which not only Destroy those permanents; but they also continue with the damage by doing additional damage too. So expecting that tapping out on Turn 5 for a Batterskull is going to save your life; I don't think that's a reasonable expectation. Sure; maybe you play it and you're lucky that they don't have 1 of their 5 to 7 cards to destroy it... The fact you're tapping out for the Batterskull really sets you back bad and you're playing right into their hands. I spoke to a Burn player at my shop and he agrees completely... So maybe I'm being mislead; but I think I'm right...
So I looked at all the options that were NON Art/Ench; mostly Instant; mostly Cheap; also looked at some creatures... And even Sorin Markov. Sure Sorin is expensive; but the fact he's gaining us 2 every turn he comes down is pretty good. But still; didn't go that route. The plan is; getting Butcher's Glee on a Blocking Tasigur or Gurmag; or a Attacking Gurmag or Tasigur; and gaining 7 to 8 life in one pinch. Then being able to Snapcaster it back to do it again. That's a 14 to 16 point possible swing.
Sure; alot of the burn decks run Skull Cracks too; but I like my chances VS 4 Skull Cracks with Butcher's Glee than a Tap Out Turn 5 Batterskull VS 5 to 8 Removal Spells for it. I think the odds are in my favor here...
With Jorubai Murk Lurker; I saw no 4 cost Creature Burn spells to kill it; we easily turn it into a 2/4 Creature. For 2 mana on Turn 4 after we untap with it; we start gaining 2 a turn while having 2 mana untapped for backup. I really do think this could be an option too... IF they want to kill it; they'll devote 2 Burn Spells; or Lose a Creature and a Burn spell to kill it. Then we Kolaghan's Command and/or CRUEL it back. When I drop Gurmags or Tasigurs; then I give one of those fatties Lifelink; and really start stabalizing well before CRUEL come down.
That's the point... We need the early life gain option so we can get to CRUEL; Cruel resolves and we are pretty much stable.
Tormod's Crypt --> I deal with Goryo's Vengeance decks; turn 1 or 2 drop Grisel or Emrakul into the GY and reanimate it and combo off... Also Mindslaver in Tron decks... The way I see it; if I drop this on Turn 1 or 2; that tells the Reanimation Deck that I have to combo off the other way; which plays into my Counter Spells. It may not be the best option; but it's a 0 cost option none the less and can tap and remove a graveyard without costing us anything. So I feel it's a decent option on short notice.
...everything else is either pretty easy to understand; or I've already explained it in another post......
/Cheers!
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Thanks Bolas; as far as Surgical VS Extirpate; it's a matter of flexibility to be honest.
I wanted a Turn 0 Option; this card replaced the Tormod's Crypts for me in my list.
Surgical does a little bit more than Extirpate as it can take out Turn 0 Combo decks or even take care of things when I've assumed the coast was clear and went for a Cruel.
Surgical just gives me alot more flesibility with being able to pay 2 life.
VS the Tron Decks; our life total doesn't really matter; if they get Tron Assembled; we're pretty much in trouble.
So casting for example Shadow of Doubt to stop a Expedition Map SEARCH then Surgical Extracting the Map really slowed down my Tron Opponent.
My match yesterday I was very close to stealing GM1 from him even without the Extractions.
I made a bad read and went for a Cruel with my opponent having only 2 mana up and 4 cards in his hand; of course he had the counter.
The turns Prior we got into some minor counter wars over Shadow of Doubt/Snapcasters/Shadow wars; and some other things... so I thought it was a chance worth taking.
If it resolves; I probably steal GM1.
I think I could of been more patient as I had Cryptic and other things going for me in that moment when I made the decision to go for it.
GM2 VS Blue Tron I won; dominated was Surgical Extraction; Sowing Salt; and the Shadow of Doubts; all of those cards, however many all worked well together to get that victory and keep him off balance.
Then in GM3 I was mana screwed and it wasn't even close... SO I feel like I'm almost there...
I haven't played enough to greatly answer your first question; as far as matchups and trends I'm seeing. Sorry about that; I don't think it would be good data if I told you matchups right now because of the fact I haven't played enough; and I'm still working my way through being new into Modern again. Although I made less mistakes yesterday; I still made SOME. Specifically in the Tron matchup; the 1 match that I lost.
As far as Gurmag + Tasigur; I really like having BOTH.
Generally I really only want these semi late; maybe MID game... like a Turn 5 or 6ish.
And I would only want 1 Tasigur and 1 Gurmag; as they both play well with each other. Tasigur being Legendary; doesn't really play well with a 2nd Tasigur.
I like being able to drop Tasigur; then follow up maybe the next turn with a Gurmag; activate Tasigur and the GY be really really clean to the point I've really got control over what card my opponent gives me back.
That's all it is; the justification of 1 for 1 split as opposed to 2 Tasigur.
Personal preference I guess...
That's great!!!
I honestly think that's where we are all at right now...
I like the fact that all of us have for the most part the Grixis SHELL; but also have a bunch of big differences surrounding that shell.
I think it's pretty cool and this is one reason why I think Grixis Cruel "COULD" become a Tier 1 deck because there's a ton of Tools to make it work and we've proven that.
It's just a matter of finding the best combination...
I'm starting to finally feel settled into Modern; took a few weeks; but I played in a Thursday Night Modern Event and I feel like I didn't make too many mistakes; managed to go 2-1; only losing to Mono Blue Tron.
One match I did win and it was a match that I heavily heavily analyzed; it was VS BURN.
2 weeks in a row as it so happens I've been in a position to beat BURN; the first week I made a crucial mistake; but this week I did it.
What I found is it's still an iffy match; and you really need to prioritize your spells and be sure to play your Cantrips/Draw spells at key moments to keep your hand full of answers.
So I'm really comfortable with that matchup now...
With that being said; I won't get into my Tourny report as I still want to get more experience with Modern and then get into bigger events; but as such with DoULikeMyUlt1m4tuM; I'm comfortable and confident in my list going forward.
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Mulldrifter
Spells: 26
2 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Terminate
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Electrolyze
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Cryptic Command
1 Counterflux
2 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
2 Shadow of Doubt
4 Serum Visions
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
Lands: 25
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Dragonskull Summit
3 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Island
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Slaughter Games
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Dispel
3 Flashfreeze
1 Suffer the Past
1 Sowing Salt
1 Vandalblast
1 Sudden Death
2 Anger of the Gods
First; GOOD LUCK!!!
Second; I think you should put a bit of variance with your Counter suite...
If you're expecting tons of BURN; then I would absolutely not go 4 Spell Snares.
Burn decks have a ton of 1 and 3 Drop Spells as well as the 2s.
Also; Burn decks generally aren't great on Mana; so Mana Leaks easily are ONLINE VS Them as well.
Mana Leak although not super popular with the masses turns out to be great VS the majority of most fields; with a few matchups it's not the greatest.
But even in the matchups Mana Leak isn't the greatest; if our game plans work; IE: VS Tron to attack their Searching or Lands; then it does mean that Mana Leak does become a tool we can use if they aren't getting TRON assembled.
So I would -2 Spell Snare and do +2 Mana Leak at the very least.
Third; I think you have way too much removal... You have 4 Terminate; plus 2 Edict; plus 2 Damnation; plus the Bolts and COmmands and Electorlyze.
I really don't think you need that much removal.
I think you could easily drop down to 2 Terminates if you're content with the Edicts; afterall you do run 4 Snapcasters so you really only need to see 1 or 2 of these spells to still get MAX value out of them.
Fourth; I think your list has all the right tools to get the job done; but I fear the problem is going to be you're stuck with a hand full of Removal or Useless Counters; with no real way to LOOT or Draw Cards early to try and mold your hand; I think you could easily Tune the list; cut a few little things and add some Anticipates or Serum Visions.
I know no one likes Serum Visions except for me I think; and it took me a long while to get on board with it... so if Visions isn't your preference; then I think you could go along way with ANTICIPATE.
If you have a hand full of Removal/Counters; then Anticipate digs up Win Cons.
If you have a hand full or removal; Anticipate can dig up Counters; or help smooth your land drops out.
I think you'd be doing yourself a diservice if you don't fine tune things just a bit and add some kind of package of Anticipates or something.
A card that I think also could be solid in your list; if you're not a fan of Anticipate or Visions; Gitaxian Probe?
It's Sorcery sure; it's a Cantrip; and in some matchups you can easily just do the 2 Life to leave up counter magic or prior to Cruel and see what your opponent is packing and mold your plan of attack based on that info.
EDIT: Fifth; I gotta say; I'm not a big fan of Chandra in Modern. I love her right now in Standard; but in Modern? Not so much...
I would highly recommend a 2nd Jace if you have it.
I was running just 1 Jace; and the list that won the MODO Daily 4-0 ran 2; so last night I ran 2 and it was amazing.
I think because our Top End of the Deck is resolving a 7CMC Cruel; I think Jace really helps big time to either keep us fueled with Answers; Lands; or helps us get to Cruel or get cards that will get us to Cruel.
That's just my opinion; by all means if you like it the way it is; again I sincerely wish you the best of luck.
I think once we start to see more Cruel lists hitting in Top 8's and winning Dailies and/or smaller events; we'll start to see Cruel break out and we'll have more information to process.
EDIT: Sideboard Suggestions
First; I gotta assume Batterskulls are VS Burn; I wouldn't do it... Batterskulls I think honestly right now are just not positioned very well right now VS the majority of the field.
With all the Kolaghan's Commands around now; and the BURN decks running anywhere between 5 to 8 Artifact or Enchantment destruction spells; I don't think I want to take the chance of Tapping out on Turn 5 for a Artifact that is supposed to "Save" me in that much. I don't know about the rest of you; but on Turn 5 VS BURN; I'm generally 1 or 2 Turns away from Death. If I tap out for a 5 CMC Artifact; I'm probably dead if they have the Smash to Smithereens or Destructive Revelry; I just helped them finish. It's like when you have Draconic Roars in your hand in a STD match; you're just dying for your opponent to play a little creature so you can 3 - 3 it and get max value from it. I've analyzed the Burn match to great detail; and I just don't think that's the way to go.
Last night I tried a combination of the Flashfreeze + Dispel and a Suffer the Past and I beat Burn; had a nice group watching too and another Grixis player came up to me last night and wanted to pick my brain on the Burn matchup.
Just a thought...
Beyond that; I don't have many issues with the SB; you're meta gaming the event; so I can't really argue to much with the rest of the choices.
I'd say as far as Grixis Decks go; here's how I'd rank them currently.
#1. Grixis Delver --> Just seems to be the strongest of them all so far; it's consistent; also plays Young Pyromancer; it's a very solid Grixis deck I think.
#2. Grixis Twin --> Another very strong Grixis list; but it is built around an infinite Combo and that's what can also make it weak.
#3. Grixis Moon --> This is the Grixis Conrol list that runs mainboard Blood Moon and Vedalken Shackles. TO be fair to this one; this one might even be #1 just because it's positioned very good right now currently. But I'm biased against this deck because of Mainboard Blood Moon.... LOL
#4. Grixis Control --> There's a new Control Grixis list popping up; runs Tasigur/Gurmag; Young Pyromancer; NO Delver NO Mainboard Blood Moon NO Twin Combo. A few of the win conditions are swapped around between all of the builds; but primarily it's a Young Pyromancer deck.
Those are the only Grixis lists that I really know of... I researched ALL the Grixis lists heavily before I settled on my shell and started posting on this thread.
I don't even put Grixis Cruel Control on the list because well let's be honest... CURRENTLY it's not Tier 1; some believe it never will be; while others think it's still early in development and alot of us are still trying different things while for the most part we all agree on the core shell.
I still think it could be Tier 1 and the handful of us here that are working on it are just a little ahead of the curve.
I think it'll be a matter of time till we start seeing a few CRUEL Control lists start popping up.
People keep telling me that CRUEL costs too much and it'll never be Tier 1 in Modern...
Yet; I'm seeing more and more each day Control decks stepping outside of those narrow minded boxes and people going with Elspeth which is a 6 CMC or higher.
I think the ones that have been active over the last few weeks too with Grixis Cruel can attest; that it is possible to out wit; out smart; out play your opponent and CONTROL the game for 6 Turns and Cruel easily on Turn 7.
And I have to say; thus far in playing various matchup;s CRUEL is still powerful enough that when it does Resolve; it's a Game Changer.
I don't think there's a Modern deck in the format that can just smile at Cruel and still win... sure; the first resolution of Cruel doesn't always WIN right there; but the card just does an amazing job at swinging games back in our favor. With the Card Draw and Life; our Win% rises dramatically.
With Snapcasters; it makes casting your 2nd or 3rd Cruel even more likely....
So that's my opinion on it... It's not going to stop me from trying and working on it; Cruel is the reason I am back in Modern.
And here's what I perceive to be the core shell...
Creatures:
3-4 Snapcaster Mage
Spells:
2 Cruel Ultimatum - For the Cruel builds.
2-4 Cryptic Command
2-3 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
0-2 Remand
4 Lightning Bolt
1-3 Electrolyze
1-3 Kolaghan's Command
2-3 Terminate
Lands: 24-25
Beyond this; alot of the decks start to look fairly different... but for the most part we all agree on the above Tools to get the job done.
I don't think we're talking about this enough...
1st of all; someone said that the Cruel Plan is an unwindable card; that the strategy is not competitive; and it'll never be Tier 1.
...athough a showing like this doesn't suggest that any of that is less TRUE; I do believe with all the feedback that we've all brought to the table; AND this tells us that Cruel can be a winning plan and that the strategy hasn't really been fully tapped into yet and so it's unclear if it can be Tier 1.
2nd; GrixisGuru says this list is a few cards off his 60; for mine it's about 9 or so cards off my 60. So I do think there's somethings we can learn here.
Pretty sure too; that this 4-0 list isn't too far off Dwarf's list; I don't recall seeing a list from Bolas ina while so I am unsure how close he is.
Interesting stuff...
3rd; anyone a little shocked that he's on CRUEL plan with only 24 lands??? LOL I mean I am a little shocked because he's not running the full 4 Serum Visions and it feels like he's not running as many draw/cantrip spells as we do. I think 25 lands is just fine; and with more draw 24 could be ok? So I'm not greatly shocked; but a little...
Yea man props; I am not convinced that this is a list that we should all suddenly adopt and mirror the 75; but at the same time I think we can pull some information from this list and look try to analyze why it was successful and go from there.
I'm approx 9 cards off this list; but I really like where my list is at as a WHOLE... I'm going to drop Vendilion Clique from my mainboard; and make a few other minor adjustments too.
I'm going to keep Keranos in my main simply due to that being just a META call.
So I've got a few adjustments I'm going to make and this list helps justify a few of the things I was thinking.
They aren't too cheap neither; and with the last Invitation of GR Tron and Amulet being so good; I do believe I've noticed they've gone up a little bit.
Luckily I have my 2 Foils already!!! PHEW!
But; Bolas is running x4 in his 75.... crap!!! I might want 1 or 2 more now. LOL
I like it!!
I'll warn you though; temper your expectations with Shadow of Doubt; I only say this because you've not been one to be on it's high praises like myself or Bolas has been.
There will be times it's not great; and all it ever ends up being is a Cantrip.
But there will be times where it feels like a total Blow Out; stopping a Fetch or stopping a Search from a Tron or Amulet player or something. It sets them back quite of bit if it stifles the Fetch/Search; it just seems to take their SOUL... take their HEART. LOL
I run x2 in the Main knowing that more often then not the first one probably only ends up being a Cantrip; but the 2nd one ends up being a Snapcaster Flashback Shadow of Doubt.
I'm ok with those expectations... for someone that doesn't normally run it; that hasn't been high on the card; you may feel it to be lackluster and easily dropped; so just give it a chance; all I'm saying.
I know how good it is when it hits; and at worse it's another Cantrip in a deck that already has like 9 more. I'm ok with that.
WOW! Good God man! x4 in the 75!? I LOVE IT!!! lol
Me personally; I probably would go 3 tops, but I have 2 in my main now... (Both Foils) lol
I'm going to try this counter package probably after this weeks event... going to give my lateast list another go round and then we'll make a few minor tweeks.
I don't know about 3 Cryptics tho...
Maybe:
2 Cryptics
3 Countersquall
2 Spell Snare
Agreed; that's exactly what I'm trying to do as well... I think the Tasigur/Gurmag package does exactly this; make the deck Flexible and gives me an alternate game plan to play around Blood Moon while also giving me an option to play a Longer Game if I have to against other decks.
I've noticed the latest round of Grixis Lists on these Articles and they have opted to drop Vendilion Clique from the 75 all together; while I don't know how I feel about that; I am close to cutting it myself.
The issue I have with cutting it has NOTHING to do with Magic or Matchups; it's simply it took me alot to get the 1 copy that I have; it's not a cheap card; I'd hate to have splurged for it and now not be running it.
That's the only argument I have on the PRO side of the Vendilion argument; I admit it.. LOL
I agree; I haven't felt thus far that Mana Leak has been really terrible... the way I see it if you allow Tron to Search up it's Pieces; and they get the Tron online; or they not only get the Tron online and also get their Winconditions; then we are doing something wrong and we're probably going to lose that battle anyways. Mana Leak or not...
I feel like the best way to attack those decks is to stifle their Searching; with Shadow of Doubts and Snapcasting them back. Along with timely Land Destruction like Fulminator Mages or Sowing Salts. I feel like if we have a good strong gameplan to stifle their attempts to get Tron Online and/or their Winconditions; then Mana Leak actually does turn out to be solid.
If we for example kill their Tron and they can't get it online; now they play a much more fairer game.. Tapping out 7 whole lands to cast a Karn for example... or 8 for an Ugin... If they have NO Tron; then Mana Leaks become amazing IMO against them as all their winconditions are Permanants that require a ton of mana and generally they're tapping out for them if Tron isn't Online.
That's why I said; Timely Shadow of Doubts to say stop a Exploration Map; or to stop a Search for an Artifact for example really puts them behind the clock... Imagine if you Shadow of Doubt their first crack at Exploration Map; then they cast another and we Snapcaster the 2nd Attempt? Mmmmm; that really should hurt......
My 2ndary plan is Surgical Extraction; a insanely undervalued and underutilized card in Modern in my opinion; it's underrated big time...
Perhaps Surgical Extraction isn't as good on it's OWN; but when you're running a Permission Package; or Discard Package; or Shadow of Doubt; or hell even Fulminator Mages in the mainboard for Non Basics; then you pay 2 life and follow it up with a Surgical Extraction???? That's more flexible and more reasonable than thinking we're going to Sowing Salt.
I'm very high on Surgical Extraction right now with our Snapcasters... 2 mana? Play Snapcaster; target Surgical Extraction and pay 2 life and cast it to nail something hardcore.
The flexibility is great! I like it better than Tormod's Crypt; I like it better againt Goryo's Vengeance decks; Amulet; Tron... I think it has alot of merit to what we're doing in Cruel Control.
It's interesting that I've been a big advocate for Shadow of Doubt and now if you look/read alot of the Modern Articles on SCG; anyone running Blue seems to be getting high on it's merit too...
If you expect alot of TRON decks after this past Invitational since GR Tron won it; or even Amulet decks having come in 2nd... then Shadow of Doubt is right where you want to be; and in private I've made a case for Shadow of Doubt slots being more important than mainboard Fulminators. lol
However; with Chapin's Land Destruction Grixis deck; I really like that he's ALL in on the whole plan and it's pretty nifty looking if you ask me...
I can't think of too many Modern Decks that aren't running some Fetches and/or Non Basics. So you're bound to screw most matches over; and sure; there are a few matchups where they run Fetches with little to no non basics... or the other way around; no Fetches with tons of Non Basics... either way; there's bound to be options to screw with the mana base.
...just my 1 cent worth
I agree; if you're on the Liliana plan; then you could probably easily get away with 2 or 3 Terminates; and not need to run all 4.
With that said; You have a great point about Countersqual VS Mana Leak. Alot of times I don't need to counter Creatures with those spells... The Spell Snares hit Goyf; and Mana Leaks are more for the Spells or CoCo.
That might not be a terrible way to go... drop down to 2 Mana Leak slots and just swap them for Countersqualls...
BEFORE:
x2 Crytpic Command
x3 Mana Leak
x2 Spell Snare
AFTER:
x3 Cryptic Command
x2 Countersqual
x2 Spell Snare
...or something along that line
GrixisGuru; you know my stance on your list... I like it as far as Tap Out lists go; it's one of my favorite lists if my list proves to flop even if I play it perfectly.
With that said; you also know my only issue I feel with it is the mainboard Thoughtseize/IOKs; I think I'd rather Shadow of Doubts at the very least.
You saw the Land Destruction Grixis deck that Chapin posted in his most recent article; while I agree with your point that going ALL IN on Fulminator and Kolaghan's Commands will have it's matchups where that's going to be bad; I do think you'll go along way to going with a card that just does more; or atleast Cantrips like Shadow of Doubt > Thoughtseize/IOK.
With the Land Destruction being a side angle of attack in your list; casting Shadow of Doubt to Fetch Screw your opponent; then pop a Fulminator seems like you'd put alot of opponents so far behind against us; which also makes cards like Mana Leak stronger as they won't have the extra lands to pay it.
Other than that; I'm a fan of your list..
As far as Countersquall; I really like it; just not sure where I want it... either in the Side or Main.
When it comes to the rest of the counters that I have in my Main; Mana Leak for example... When it's good; it's really really really good; even GREAT. But when it's bad; it's really really really bad; THE WORST.
I think in more matchups than not; Mana Leak is still definitely the best option we have.
And with so many decks running some very big time 2 CMC Cost Modern Staples; Spell Snare I think is pretty dang good too.
The one Counter slot that I don't like is Remand; and I've opted to cut it for a 2nd Kolaghan's Command.
And of course Cryptics are amazing... it's widely debated if it should be 2 of; or a 3 of; or even some run 4.
I think with how speedy decks are and how alot of Modern decks are full of Turn 1-3 plays; I think 2 or 3 Cryptics is where we want to be at; 4 is too many.
With that all being said; I like my counter package; I don't always "LOVE" it; but I like it.
Out of the Side I bring in Flashfreeze and Dispel and Counterflux to clean up some of the areas where the Counter Package limits us.
So again; it's hard for me to justify Countersqual. I almost want it over the Dispels in my side; but then I can think of many times I want that 1 CMC Counter Spell in Counter Wars; or to protect Tasigur when I drop him being able to leave up 1 Blue for example... So I don't know.
On the topic of Terminate; I still don't know that 4 is right; but you can't go wrong... I say this is META dependent.
I was one of the people running 3 from the very beginning and alot of people telling me 3 was too many.... now we're talking of going up to 4.
I'm all for it; but I'll stick with 3 for now; I think 3 with Snapcasters is pretty good with a 4th or other removal in the side to bring in VS the Zoo Decks we want it against.
Beyond that; there's 3 lists that I love so far over the past 5 or 6 pages...
GrixisGuru semi Tap Out List.
UndeadDwarf's Draw Go heavy Control focused list.
And my own...
Not a fan of the Artifact builds; but again if they work can't hate on it.
And any lists that don't run Cruels; just plainly shouldn't be posted in this thread.
You do realize this is a Modern Category; and a Cruel Control thread right?
And to your points; Cruel Ultimatum is still a powerful tool I agree; and once it resolves it still carries the weight of being a death blow in any matchups.
Generally you resolve the first one; your chances of winning are much much higher and it leads right into the 2nd casting of the spell.
Also; let's just call it what it is for some of us too... it's the challenge of casting it and taking over the game that is the thrill.
It's such a powerful card; it's a TRUE Control win condition... control the game for 6 Turns; jam a spell that completely and utterly shifts the game so drastically that we now are on path to victory.
IDK; I mean I'm on this Thread cuz Cruel is my favorite card; and I'm developing a list with Cruels.... isn't that the point?
As far as Blood Moon; I've analyzed and researched and dug dug dug... Blood Moon doesn't really bother us till we get to Turn 7 and want to cast Cruel.
Atleast for my list; I have other things going for me besides Cruel.
Tasigur, the Golden Fang; Gurmag Angler; Keranos, God of Storms; BURN... This is a big reason why I have opted to keep these packages; it provides the deck much needed midrange game just in case the Cruel Path doesn't pan out. Not to mention it also provides alot of utility to go LONG if we get pushed to that direction.
I don't always need to win by resolving Cruel and I think that's the best way to play the deck.
And fact is; I can cast all of those above threat while still playing around Blood Moon. All those Creatures I just named; Only need just 1 Swamp and 1 Island to resolve all of those.
That's it...
Come time for Turn 7; do a EOT Turn 6 Cryptic Command; Bouncing Blood Moon to their hand; into Turn 7 CRUEL and force them to discard it.
Blood Moon honestly doesn't feel like it'll be that bad ever if we're playing our game right; and really that's what Modern is all about... skilled lines of play and impeccable decision making...
I've learned alot by studying how we play around it... if I see Red on my opponents side; I just plan immediately from the start that they're going to Blood Moon me.
So I line up Islands and Swamps any chance I can fetch them... Serum Visions and the SCRY Action certainly also helps to get Multiple Islands/Swamps Basics.
Blood Moon although annoying is just that; an annoyance and I just know to shift my focus for awhile.... it's just that simple.
I'm to the point now that I"m feeling very comfortable against any matchups that intend to try and BLOOD MOON hate us out... because generally if that's their plan; they think once they resolve that; they can rest on that plan and put too much confidence in the card... meanwhile we still keep plugging away; killing a creature here or there; not really being forced to do much of anything... because some of the decks that play Blood Moon also end up hurting themselves too... It's a chance they take... we keep plugging away; still able to drop my threats like Tasigur; Gurmag; Keranos... needing only 1 Island to sit behind that and protect.... and sure; I hit my Engineered Explosives and destroy it; or Bounce Blood Moon and CRUEL.
I welcome the tech... just like Grafdigger's Cage; buddy of mine thinks that really hurts us... lol It doesn't.
So why run an Artifact heavier build?
Just for the better Draw option of Thirst for Knowledge?
I don't feel like having all these Artifacts that really don't do much against our opponents just to make 1 Card better is really worth going down that road?
IDK: maybe I'm wrong.
But hey; I mean if it works for you it works; I'm not one to be negative about anyones ideas or thought process if it's working for you.
It's just def not for me; like the Tasigur/Gurmag stuff isn't for you.
Let us know how it goes... I'm interested to hear.
If you look at like the last 20 SCG Events for Modern; Grixis has had about 3 different versions going for it.
1.) Twin
2.) Delver
3.) Blood Moon/Shackles
BUT: alot of us are on the belief that Grixis is good because of Kolaghan's Command so the Shells stay fairly close to the same; but the Win Conditions can be different.
Me personally; I don't like Blood Moon Mainboard; but yea it's definitely a Deck.
If we opt for any of the NON Cruel lists; I think I'd move in the direction of the Young Pyromancer, Olivia, Keranos, Tasigur list myself.
I think the Young Pyromancer Control lists are actually really well position and insanely flexible with Kolaghan's Command.
BUT: With that being said; this is a CRUEL thread; and I'm back in Modern because I wanted to play my favorite Magic card of all time -- CRUEL; so I'm not giving in to the peer pressure or giving up on Cruel so soon to me being back into Modern.
I personally think; if you look at the Modern events SCG has listed over this past week; there's alot of new Grixis CONTROL lists that have popped up; I think it's a matter of time before people start trying to jam Cruels to see if it can work.
I think we're just ahead of the game.... KUDOS to us!
And with that being said; I'm settling; have settled on this list now... For the most part the list is the same; but I was swapping a few cards here and there all around but now I'm settled.
The sideboard is pretty settled and stable now too...
I too have been making alot of mistakes that have cost me in Modern already too; but when I re-play things in my head I believe I had the advantage everytime had I just played things correctly.
So I need to grind Modern; learn the format; and it helps to have a stable list and not be taking a knee jerk reaction every week and dismantling and re-building...
SO here's where I'm at:
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Tasigur, The Golden Fang
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Mulldrifter
Spells: 25
2 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Terminate
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Electrolyze
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Cryptic Command
3 Mana Leak
1 Remand
2 Spell Snare
4 Serum Visions
2 Shadow of Doubt
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
Lands: 25
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
1 Drowned Catacomb
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Dragonskull Summit
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Island
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Slaughter Games
1 Counterflux
2 Dispel
4 Flashfreeze
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sowing Salt
3 Anger of the Gods
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Surgical Extraction
NOTES:
1.) Shadow of Doubt I've been known to run x1 mainboard; and the other slot this past event was a 3rd Cruel; which turned out to be tooooo greedy. I did the math; and instead of a 3rd Cruel I wanted another 1 or 2 CMC Cantrip/Draw or Counterspell. I decided I didn't want another Counter; so I wanted a Cantrip/Draw spell. So I was going to go with x2 Anticipate to go with the x4 Serum Visions and the rest of the other Cantrips/Draw. But then I decided that Anticipate really just Cantrips; it replaces itself; sure it digs down 3 cards deep to replace it self; but I felt I wanted something that was more powerful and that could help me in my Matchups. So I opted for Shadow of Doubt x2 in the slot instead. Shadow of Doubt still cantrips; sure it doesn't dig 3 cards deep; but what it does do in many situations is it stifles an opponent from Searching their Library... Whether it be they are Fetching a Land to Color Fix themselves; or they are Searching for UrzaTron; or the Artifact or Wincondition to combo off. Or they're Transmutting... So you're stopping them early from doing that and then Cantripping. I feel that mode of Shadow of Doubt makes it better than just digging 3 cards deep and then replacing itself. Sure there maybe times I'm going to just Cycle Shadow of Doubt and that's ok. Because then we have Snapcaster; and the moment your opponent plays a Fetch; or plays Search Spell; stifle it and Cantrip again. I think the flexibility is pretty great; and the moment you stop that search can really give us the time we need for Cruels. Add in the fact that if we stop them from Searching early; we are now pushing some of these decks to combo off a little later which plays better with the counter permission suite.
2.) Tasigur, the Golden Fang + Gurmag Angler I know the Tasigur/Gurmag package is a debated topic; while some like it and are running it; others don't. I get that; I think there's merit of both arguments. I'm staying in the Tasigur/Gurmag camp; for now. I haven't given my list a fair shot because of the mistakes I keep making; so I'm going to keep grinding it out till I feel more comfortable with the format and I can truly evaluate my card choices properly. I do know that everytime I cast Tasigur; or Gurmag; I'm dropping out a big enough creature that blocks the heck out of Goyf or other bigger creatures... even smaller creatures; it's a road block. Perhaps one of my issues when I play Zoo is I focus a bit too heavily on Goyf and need to focus more on the COMBO. At any rate; I really like what both of these guys bring; and then in the longer Grindy games; what Tasigur does to keep giving us fuel to get there.
Other than that; everything else stays pretty much the same...
Mainboard Considerations: I picked up a few of these; I want to hear thoughts if you guys don't mind?
The only thing about this deck that I feel "CAN" be inconsistent or awkward; other than me just flat out being dumb and making mistakes...
...it's the COUNTER Permission suite
I've gone back quite of few pages back to see what other things have been discussed before we got here; I admit I didn't read every page there's over 100.... but somethings caught my eye.
Spell Blast - I like Spell Blast; seems pretty flexible and gets stronger as the game goes.
Disrupting Shoal - My favorite card out of these 3 potential considerations. This can be a Turn 0 counter spell. For example; your opponent plays Goryo's Vengeance and tries to combo off Turn 1; I remove say Shadow of Doubt or Mana Leak/Remand and counter the spell and prevent a Turn 1 win. Or how about your opponent thinks the coast is clear to cast a Expedition Map; and I remove a Serum Visions or Spell Snare to counter the 1 CMC Artifact. There's many examples of things that can happen; and let's be honest too; as the game goes a bit longer; it's reasonable to expect just straight up casting this to counter alot of things.
Logic Knot - I'm not sure how much of a fan I am of this; I seen Grimble running it; because I'm already running Tasigur/Gurmag; it could delve those out... But then; Logic Knot could go along way to assist in keeping the GY cleaner so that I have greater control over what Tasigur brings back. But again; perhaps we don't even need to Delve with this; just cast it straight up as the game goes longer.
I picked up a few of these each; I'd like to give them each a try; not all of them at the same time; I feel like they each would take the same slot that I free up for them... I'd probably drop down to 2 Mana Leaks; and maybe 1 Spell Snare to make room for any 2 of the above and try them out. I'm leaning more towards Disrupting Shoal for my list.
SIDEBOARD: As I said; I feel my sideboard is now going to pretty much stay settled; I'm happy with everything I have... one area I think I may need to improve perhaps might be the Land Destruction; but the way I see it; I don't know that I want to go too all in on Land Destruction against some of those special decks like TRON or Amulet because they're hella resilient and if we focus too much on their lands and controlling their lands; we still end up getting beat down by a Thragtusk or losing to a Karn anyways. So I wanted to becareful a bit... with Shadow of Doubt mainboard; the other counters; bringing in some other things; I feel as though I can control things to some degree; while digging and landing haymakers like Slaughter Games or Sowing Salts to nail em.
All in all; even with my mistakes; I've seen some really good things from the list and I'm still hella encouraged that I'm going down a good path for this deck.
/Cheers
I still got alot to learn about Modern; just kinda fumbling my way through it...
First 2 rounds was riddled with Mistakes; in the 2nd round however the Mistake cost me the Match.
So that was disappointing...
Oh and it as it turned out; another mistake was trying to go 3 CRUELS. IN the testing prior to the event the Visions, Cantrips, Mulldrifter, Keranos, Jace all helped to get me to 7 and Cruel consistently... But of course; come Event time; all that smoothness was GONE and I ran into lots of issues. So yea; 2 Cruels going forward from here.
Third round I kicked some Goryo's Vengeance butt... LOL
I'm not even sure if it's worth to do a little report; but I will...
LOSS 0-2 VS Abzan Combo CoCo Zoo
-Both games he combos off; first game I know I kept a bad hand; and tapped out for a Tasigur at around Turn 4 or 5 and left him wide open to Combo off for Infinite Life.
-Game 2 he combo'ed off; BUT: this time I was smart enough to not tap out; had the removal in hand; but didn't see the combo till I let it "Resolve" then tried to kill the combo; and in response he combos off and goes Infinite.
-I learned alot about how this deck worked though; and I gotta believe that this matchup is INSANELY FAVORABLE for us with all our 2 Damage Burn Spells + Lightning Bolts + Terminates and our Counter Spells. Just feels like we are heavily stacked against alot of the creatures they're using; not to mention the Angers of the Gods and the Flashfreezes that I brought in against him.
-I just flat out didn't see how he would combo and just flat out fell asleep at the wheel with this one... #LessonsLearned
LOSS 1-2 VS BURN
-Game 1 he casts Boros Charm with 1 other card in his hand. I LEAK it; force him to tap the other 3 Lands to let it resolve; so he's tapped out but he has me to 1 life; he's sitting at 8; I battled through a few missed land drops; we are on Turn 8; I'm sitting at like 5 lands; so I'm way off CRUEL at this point; he passes the Turn; and suddenly it hit me.... I Lightning Bolt him EOT; Untap; hit him with Electrolyze then Draw; then I cast Serum Visions to DRAW again and SCRY 2. I see a Lightning Bolt on the SCRY; luckily I had a Jace in play so I down tick Jace and get the Bolt and finish the game.
-Game 2 was much much more uglier... The Flashfreezes, Spell Snares and Mana Leaks are putting in alot of work though!!! Snapcaster into Spell Snares... Yes please! I felt like I had complete control of the game; but it's still a close battle...
-Then; I made a FATAL Mistake... THE MISTAKE: So on his turn he casts Eidolon; I had 2 mana open and a Snapcaster in my hand with a Jace. No other answer to deal with Eidolon; so I in response cast Snapcaster targeting NOTHING so that I could prevent him from attacking me and gave me a blocker atleast. Knowing I can't do Snapcaster with Eidolon resolved; so I do it. I think that was the CORRECT part of the play.
-I untapped; took my turn; drew a CRUEL. But I was 1 Red Source away from being able to cast Cruel to stabilize and win. So what do I do? The only stupidest thing possible; I cast JACE; and UP TICK????? I up ticked thinking it would make his Eidolon Smaller making it so that my Snapcaster lived... We all know that won't be the case either way; but I made the mistake an Up Ticked. I should of Down Ticked; which would of gotten me the Red Source I needed THAT TURN. I would of had to play it Tapped though to take no damage but that would of given me CRUEL the next turn. So then he takes his turn; bolts me; drops me to 2. I take my Turn; draw my Red Source; and I can't play it UNTAPPED or I lose. So I'm left with the decision to play it Tapped and Pass again. He of course top decks the Boros Charm to steal the game.
-To be fair; I stole Game 1 and he stole Game 2.... but yea; and Game 3 I was stuck on 3 lands and removal with no Blue Sources. Probably a BAD KEEP.
WIN 2-1 VS Goryo's Vengeance Combo
-Game 1; combo'ed off Turn 3; GG.
-Game 2; I bring in the Tormod's Crypts; the Dispels; Counterflux; Slaughter Games. I get the Dispels; and Spell Snares; and Mana Leaks; I somehow got into a Zone even after my Round 2 Mistakes; and played perfectly; countering the right stuff; answering the right stuff; GG.
-Game 3; much of the same; although it's debatable apparently a few of the decisions I made that ended up working out; but I still think I had the right line of play and thought process.
So it's hard for me to truly tell what I have as far as a deck yet because I'm still making alot of mistakes... but; when I play things out in my head; and if I had done things right; I feel like all 3 of those decks I coulda beat.
VS the Abzan Coco Zoo Deck; we got so much removal main board that hates them out... Should be a walk in the park?
VS the Burn deck; the Flashfreezes were amazing; I admit in GM3 although I was mana screwed; I had the Butcher's Glee in my hand and kept although I prob shoulda mulled. I hate mulling..... I really wanted so bad to see what that card could do.... I didn't get to see how it would do; I was mana screwed and didn't get a creature to play; so I don't know if it would of worked. In hindsight after the match; seeing what he was gripping; I do sincerely believe it would of worked had I gottan any of my bigs to drop on the board. Perhaps I need a Lifegain option that doesn't require the Creature; maybe just some Instant Speed spell that gains life on it's own... I sincerely believe that Ench/Art Life Gain is not the option though even still. But the Flashfreezes were boss.
VS the Combo Deck; I again feel there's alot of hate here and we can stop that deck... The issue is if it combos off Turn 1 which it can.... I don't know how we stop a Turn 1 Combo Off. The only way I think is with Tormod's Crypt; but if they're using the Breech Combo; then I think we're just screwed.
I'm happy with what I saw of the deck still; I think once I get through the growing pains of being a newbie to the format; things will get much better.
Here's what I got for my latest list...
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Tasigur, The Golden Fang
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Mulldrifter
Spells: 25
3 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Terminate
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Electrolyze
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Cryptic Command
3 Mana Leak
1 Remand
2 Spell Snare
4 Serum Visions
1 Shadow of Doubt
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
Lands: 25
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
1 Drowned Catacomb
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Dragonskull Summit
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Island
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Slaughter Games
1 Counterflux
2 Dispel
3 Flashfreeze
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Sowing Salt
3 Anger of the Gods
1 Butcher's Glee
1.) I'm still going with the Tasigur/Gurmag Delve direction; just devoting less to the package; they are great on their own right and don't need to be dropped Turn 2 I don't think.
We have Terminates and Counters to manage most early bigs; and plenty of early spells and Fetches that make Tasigur and Gurmag easy a Turn 4 or 5 expectation.
2.) I'm opting for 3 Cruels; in testing although I know alot of people don't like Serum Visions; Serum Visions has actually been testing well and keeping the top deck live with either the Lands or Support. I've been smoothly hitting Turn 7 Cruel; and that's really what we want to be doing. Everything from Turns 1 - 6 is designed to Control/Answer and Stall your opponent. Once the first Cruel resolves; usually it's all good from there for us. So I'm going to try it.
3.) Keranos is back in my mainboard; I'm going to give him a REAL try. I've had it in my main before; and was always apprehensive to cast it on Turn 5 fearing alot of things that are quite frankly UNKNOWN because I'm unfamiliar with the format. And almost every time I feared "Something" and "Nothing" happened... I like Turn 5 Keranos I think more often then not; because then on Turn 6 and 7 he's going to help us possibly hit our Lands to ensure a Turn 7 Cruel. Also; having watched the Twitch Coverage of SCG: INV for Modern this week; Keranos just seems really boss and so I want to make sure I give it a fair shake and not discount it.
4.) My sideboard has some interesting different things; some of it is quite honestly either for TESTING or because I don't have EVERYTHING that I would like to have if it was a perfect world...
Flashfreeze --> I really really like this option; I had it in my list originally but then dropped it when I saw NO ONE running it. But the more and more I look at this card; and consider the meta game in which I play; I think Flashfreeze still could end up being my best sideboard slot. Hoses Zoo decks; Hoses the hell out of Burn decks; I plan to side out some of the narrow Counters for the 3 Flashfreezes to bolster the permission package in those matchups. I think it'll be really good.
Butcher's Glee --> An odd ball for sure!!! It almost was Jorubai Murk Lurker... LOL So I looked at all the Burn decks that have made Top 8s over the last few months; every single one of them run anywhere between 5 to 7 Enchantment/Artifact kill cards. ALL of which not only Destroy those permanents; but they also continue with the damage by doing additional damage too. So expecting that tapping out on Turn 5 for a Batterskull is going to save your life; I don't think that's a reasonable expectation. Sure; maybe you play it and you're lucky that they don't have 1 of their 5 to 7 cards to destroy it... The fact you're tapping out for the Batterskull really sets you back bad and you're playing right into their hands. I spoke to a Burn player at my shop and he agrees completely... So maybe I'm being mislead; but I think I'm right...
So I looked at all the options that were NON Art/Ench; mostly Instant; mostly Cheap; also looked at some creatures... And even Sorin Markov. Sure Sorin is expensive; but the fact he's gaining us 2 every turn he comes down is pretty good. But still; didn't go that route. The plan is; getting Butcher's Glee on a Blocking Tasigur or Gurmag; or a Attacking Gurmag or Tasigur; and gaining 7 to 8 life in one pinch. Then being able to Snapcaster it back to do it again. That's a 14 to 16 point possible swing.
Sure; alot of the burn decks run Skull Cracks too; but I like my chances VS 4 Skull Cracks with Butcher's Glee than a Tap Out Turn 5 Batterskull VS 5 to 8 Removal Spells for it. I think the odds are in my favor here...
With Jorubai Murk Lurker; I saw no 4 cost Creature Burn spells to kill it; we easily turn it into a 2/4 Creature. For 2 mana on Turn 4 after we untap with it; we start gaining 2 a turn while having 2 mana untapped for backup. I really do think this could be an option too... IF they want to kill it; they'll devote 2 Burn Spells; or Lose a Creature and a Burn spell to kill it. Then we Kolaghan's Command and/or CRUEL it back. When I drop Gurmags or Tasigurs; then I give one of those fatties Lifelink; and really start stabalizing well before CRUEL come down.
That's the point... We need the early life gain option so we can get to CRUEL; Cruel resolves and we are pretty much stable.
Tormod's Crypt --> I deal with Goryo's Vengeance decks; turn 1 or 2 drop Grisel or Emrakul into the GY and reanimate it and combo off... Also Mindslaver in Tron decks... The way I see it; if I drop this on Turn 1 or 2; that tells the Reanimation Deck that I have to combo off the other way; which plays into my Counter Spells. It may not be the best option; but it's a 0 cost option none the less and can tap and remove a graveyard without costing us anything. So I feel it's a decent option on short notice.
...everything else is either pretty easy to understand; or I've already explained it in another post......
/Cheers!