LotV is not that great in Grixis. She's significantly better in Jund, where she fuels the Delirium Engine, grows Tarmogoyf and gets rid of unwanted discard spells (of which Jund runs 8 MD). I'd say she is a 10 in traditional Jund, a 8 in DSJ and a 6 in Grixis Shadow.
LotV is playable in Grixis Shadow mostly due to her raw power level, but IMHO needs some support or a very specific metagame to justify her inclusion. Extra Discard spells, Rise // Fall and maybe Claim // Fame increase LotV's synergy with the rest of the deck. Lowering the land count, however, makes LotV worse.
It's also noteworthy that while LotV is less often a bad card than LtLH, she is not particularly helpful in most of the more difficult matchups. She's not that good against D'n'T because of Thalia, Blade Splicer and the sheer number of creatures they run. Affinity can take her out quickly and cares little about sorcery speed discard effects. Eldrazi Tron wins most topdecking battles and gladly sacrifices Matter Reshaper, Hangerback Walker and Walking Ballista with one last counter. Dredge can even benefit from her. Swarm decks often just overrun her.
LotV is good in the mirror, but so are many other cards. The current metagame is so hostile towards our deck that few other archetypes can afford to rely on just a few big creatures. So LotV is less relevant than she used to be when Jund with 12 creatures was tier 1 and Infect was still a deck.
BTW: I just became the victim of an attempt of Tron to lock me out of a color with Karn and Newlamog. So I guess we can add Tron to the list of evil land destruction decks. It was obviously the 19th land that saved me!
Your points aren't bad, but I'm going to push back on you against the BGx thing---Jund and Junk will NOT go the land destruction route, not the good ones. There isn't enough room to be cutting things for that, and a fulminator looks incredibly bad to topdeck in a long game
They can't cut discard because they need to snatch away snapcasters
They're bringing in the grindy cards, finks, graveyard hate, etc---there isn't room to cut for that route.
From my experience, if they are running Traverse the Ulvenwald, Fulminator Mage is usually coming in. Fulminator Mage is also not a terrrible topdeck in the long game. It can chump a Death's Shadow or delve fatty and destroy a land. Since the typical Grixis Shadow list only runs 7 non-fetch lands (some of the Sleight of Hand lists even run only 6), destroying a few of those can lock the Grixis Shadow deck out of the Snapcaster + Kommand engine, which is exactly what the GBx decks want to achieve. The first Fulminator Mage is usually not much of a problem, but multiple Fulminator Mages often are.
Good gbx players don't slot in fulminators for shadow decks
I have recently developed a habit of disliking sentences that start with "good <insert random deck> players don't <insert tactic>". It always comes down to what their strategy against Grixis Shadow is. If they pack enough disruption to force us into a grindy game, attacking our manabase is a legit strategy.
Living end, I think you want to finish things before they get to that point
Living End often has considerable numbers of Fulminator Mage and Simian Spirit Guide maindeck. I don't see how we can reliably "finish things" before having to deal with this situation. In game 2 and 3, they are highly interested in taking us off our second blue mana source for some nifty Ricochet Trap action.
DnT can totally land lock you. That matchup is a serious uphill fight
It's not THAT bad actually, but you can make the matchup worse by cutting that 19th land if you like to lose against the one deck in the format that has recently gained popularity.
Ponza isn't really eating large meta shares
I mostly mentioned it because it punishes flimsy manabases badly. I have seen quite a few Ponza decks on MTGO lately.
I mentioned just a few decks. There was an "etc." in my list for a reason. In a metagame where big mana decks thrive, a lot of deck archtypes cannot affort to ignore lands. Sure, you can dodge all those matchups and hope that the "good players" will never come up with the idea of attacking our deck's already vulnerable manabase.
18 lands is fine from my experience as long as the opponent is not running any land destruction. If they are (D'n'T, Living End, Ponza, various GBx decks after boarding, etc.), 19 lands are certainly not too much. Any extra fetch land also helps playing around Blood Moon. You can often take out the 19th land after boarding if you are sure that your manabase is not going to be attacked. But I'd rather get occasionally flooded than miss a land drop.
Orzhov Charm is a trap. Most Esper Shadow list don't even run it because it is too situational. Some of the Jund Shadow decks with a White splash ran it months ago, but not anymore.
For similar reasons, I don't think that Claim // Fame is going to be a staple in Grixis Shadow. Yes, some lists will contain one or two copies of it when Hour of Devastation becomes legal. But before another deck becomes the boogeyman of the format, I doubt that there is room in the typical Grixis list for a card that does not stop any of the many attempts to hate on the deck. Unless Grixis Shadow evolves in a new direction to specifically exploit Claim // Fame, I don't see it happen.
Path to Exile is a definitely good card in Esper Shadow, but the drawback hurts the deck's capability of playing the tempo game, which is already worse without direct damage spells. The one mana casting cost also means that Chalice of the Void on 1 becomes even more backbreaking for the deck. Worse, Esper doesn't have any maindeck artifact hate that comes remotely near the power level of Kolaghan's Command. So, I don't think Esper Shadow will be in a good spot unless Eldrazi Tron falls out of favor.
It's also noteworthy that Ensnaring Bridge is good against Eldrazi Tron. A shift away from Grixis Shadow towards Esper Shadow would likely make this card too good to ignore for the Burn sideboard and various other decks.
- One Kommand in the 75 looks just wrong. Lightning Bolt and the second Kommand are not interchangeable. Ever.
- There is a random Claim // Fame in the sideboard that doesn't seem to be worth the slot without any deck-tweaking.
- Liliana's Defeat in addition to 7 maindeck creature removals seems to be too much trading on a one-for-one basis.
- Part of the sideboard seems to be geared towards beating midrange decks, but for some reason there is only one Nihil Spellbomb.
It seems that you took my counter-argument to your post as a direct attack. That was not at all my intention and I apologize if it came off that way.
Apology accepted. I might have overreacted a bit, but I really dislike it when people make too many assumptions out of the blue on what I do and what I think. I would not have answered your question if I hadn't done quite a bit of testing with the third Angler. I also wanted to make it work, but in the end, it didn't work for my play style.
My goal was to explain why I prefer Angler over Tasigur. If it seems like I am approaching the mirror strongly, it's because that is one of the few matchups that I've been testing constantly. When I'm not at my LGS the only other friend in proximity at school that plays modern also has the same deck so we get a lot of reps in of the mirror.
IMHO, this is not a good way to master the mirror matchup. If you play against the same person over and over again, the two of you will end up heavily influencing each other.
Also if I may ask, what exactly is your reasoning for having 0 copies of Denial post board? Do you leave in all 6 discard spells? I'm now very curious as to what approach you take in the mirror and how your results have been.
Yes, I leave all my discard spells in the deck and board out my Stubborn Denials because we can only have so many reactive cards without hurting the threat density. IoK used to be the card I liked least in the deck, but my various attempts to cut it have resulted in too many game losses. Our deck archetype has so many different roads to victory and I really want to know what my opponent is working with. Unless I get a very explosive hand, my plan is to make sure that the game goes long and requires a lot of micromanagement. I'm a control player at heart and these are the kinds of games that I usually end up winning.
If my opponents were pro players, I would probably lose more often than not by taking this road because I'm not a pro player. But as things stand, I win about 2/3 of the mirror matches, making Grixis DS one of my best matchups in practice. This is why I don't feel an urge to optimize specifically against it. Currently, so many decks pack hate against us, making me feel that I need every available sideboard slot to counter that hate.
oPoptartz, you seem to be very biased towards certain cards. So why are you even asking such a question, when you are already so convinced that you know the one and only right answer?
Tasigur's ability isn't efficient, and often leaves you to getting blown out by a Terminate or Dismember. Post board both of you will have 4 copies of Stubborn Denial and the last thing either of you want to do is tap out and show your opponent that you don't have one.
Post board in the mirror match, I will have exactly 0 copies of Stubborn Denial.
Also in combat Gurmag being able to tackle opposing Tasgurs and not die is a lot more relevant than you think.
Really, what do you want to tell me? That I don't know what is relevant in the mirror match? That have no idea what I'm talking about? That's how it sounds. Or is it possible that different play styles and strategies exist and not just the one play style and one strategy you personally favor?
Has anyone on this list that doesn't run 4 Sleight of Hands tried running 3 Angler - 1 Tasigur. Angler is much better vs. Eldrazi and mirror matches because it trades with every non Shadow creature and clocks faster. Also angler works a little better with TBR. I find myself never really getting the opportunity to use Tasigur's ability anyway, and if I am in that spot I'm probably very ahead anyway. I think for a deck like this vs. Grixis control we can utilize the extra power more often than we can utilize the Tasigur ability. Also milling Discard spells feels pretty terrible when activating the ability.
I have tried running 3 Angler / 1 Tasigur. Tasigur is significantly easier to cast on turn 2 and easier to sneak past Relic of Progenitus, of which Eldrazi Tron usually runs 4. The mirror matchup is actually one of the few occasions at which Tasigur's ability matters. The deck does not have a high creature count, so LtLH often benefits from extra mill action. It's also a good way of getting a Terminate ready for a snap-back, which is also important in the mirror. So I wouldn't say that Angler is "much better" than Tasigur. Maybe slightly better if the match doesn't turn into a grindfest and potentially worse if it does.
I recently replaced the 2nd LtLH with a 3rd Kolaghan's Command and like it so far. In the aftermath of GP Vegas, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity and Hatebears have become even more popular. LtLH is not what we want against Eldrazi Tron and often is too little too late against Affinity. Kollaghan's Command really shines in these matchups. Against Hatebears, Kollaghan's Command can be great if they have Bladesplicer and/or Tidehollow Sculler, whereas LtLH is just terrible in this matchup.
The deck wouldn't change much, because its low land count is not Jace-friendly. If Jace saw a lot of play in other decks, 3+ Stubborn Denials and some Lightning Bolts would make even more sense. Sideboard-wise, Dreadbore, Disdainful Stroke and Countersquall would become more attractive.
(1) Fame is not in Sultai colors. Sultai Shadow is problematic in general because it tends to rely too much on the graveyard. Claim // Fame looks as if it could find a place in combo-orientated DSJ builds.
(2) Lightning Bolt is a flexible maindeck card but underwhelming as a sideboard card. A third Anger/Tendrils/KReturn is probably the better choice for the sideboard.
I don't believe Surgical is right for Valakut/Tron matchups, especially without Fulminator. Scouring them and hoping to get lucky seems highly ambitious likely a bad use of Scour. If big mana is a problem my preference is to tune the deck by putting in Disdainful>Rejection and put a clock on them+disrupt them through countermagic and discard.
I also don't believe Extraction is that good vs. Storm, but I could be wrong.
Against RG Titanshift/Valakut, surgically extracting Primeval Titan from their deck is really good. Scapeshift is less of a problem thanks to Stubborn Denial, but it makes a good secondary target. Without the Fulminator Mages, I also don't like Surgical Extraction that much vs. Tron. It's still not really bad, because Tron is a relatively threat-light deck. If Karn has been extracted, they will have a hard time getting their remaining 8-10 threats past our 6-7 counterspells + 4 Snapcaster Mages. Against Storm, extracting their Into the Warrens will often be backbreaking. But that's not really needed and we usually have plenty of other good stuff to side in.
LotV is playable in Grixis Shadow mostly due to her raw power level, but IMHO needs some support or a very specific metagame to justify her inclusion. Extra Discard spells, Rise // Fall and maybe Claim // Fame increase LotV's synergy with the rest of the deck. Lowering the land count, however, makes LotV worse.
It's also noteworthy that while LotV is less often a bad card than LtLH, she is not particularly helpful in most of the more difficult matchups. She's not that good against D'n'T because of Thalia, Blade Splicer and the sheer number of creatures they run. Affinity can take her out quickly and cares little about sorcery speed discard effects. Eldrazi Tron wins most topdecking battles and gladly sacrifices Matter Reshaper, Hangerback Walker and Walking Ballista with one last counter. Dredge can even benefit from her. Swarm decks often just overrun her.
LotV is good in the mirror, but so are many other cards. The current metagame is so hostile towards our deck that few other archetypes can afford to rely on just a few big creatures. So LotV is less relevant than she used to be when Jund with 12 creatures was tier 1 and Infect was still a deck.
I mentioned just a few decks. There was an "etc." in my list for a reason. In a metagame where big mana decks thrive, a lot of deck archtypes cannot affort to ignore lands. Sure, you can dodge all those matchups and hope that the "good players" will never come up with the idea of attacking our deck's already vulnerable manabase.
For similar reasons, I don't think that Claim // Fame is going to be a staple in Grixis Shadow. Yes, some lists will contain one or two copies of it when Hour of Devastation becomes legal. But before another deck becomes the boogeyman of the format, I doubt that there is room in the typical Grixis list for a card that does not stop any of the many attempts to hate on the deck. Unless Grixis Shadow evolves in a new direction to specifically exploit Claim // Fame, I don't see it happen.
Path to Exile is a definitely good card in Esper Shadow, but the drawback hurts the deck's capability of playing the tempo game, which is already worse without direct damage spells. The one mana casting cost also means that Chalice of the Void on 1 becomes even more backbreaking for the deck. Worse, Esper doesn't have any maindeck artifact hate that comes remotely near the power level of Kolaghan's Command. So, I don't think Esper Shadow will be in a good spot unless Eldrazi Tron falls out of favor.
It's also noteworthy that Ensnaring Bridge is good against Eldrazi Tron. A shift away from Grixis Shadow towards Esper Shadow would likely make this card too good to ignore for the Burn sideboard and various other decks.
- One Kommand in the 75 looks just wrong. Lightning Bolt and the second Kommand are not interchangeable. Ever.
- There is a random Claim // Fame in the sideboard that doesn't seem to be worth the slot without any deck-tweaking.
- Liliana's Defeat in addition to 7 maindeck creature removals seems to be too much trading on a one-for-one basis.
- Part of the sideboard seems to be geared towards beating midrange decks, but for some reason there is only one Nihil Spellbomb.
If my opponents were pro players, I would probably lose more often than not by taking this road because I'm not a pro player. But as things stand, I win about 2/3 of the mirror matches, making Grixis DS one of my best matchups in practice. This is why I don't feel an urge to optimize specifically against it. Currently, so many decks pack hate against us, making me feel that I need every available sideboard slot to counter that hate.
(1) Fame is not in Sultai colors. Sultai Shadow is problematic in general because it tends to rely too much on the graveyard. Claim // Fame looks as if it could find a place in combo-orientated DSJ builds.
(2) Lightning Bolt is a flexible maindeck card but underwhelming as a sideboard card. A third Anger/Tendrils/KReturn is probably the better choice for the sideboard.