This may be a crazy idea, but is it worth trying out Jace's Phantasm in Delver's slot for shenanigans? A 1/1 flyer for 1 mana is decent, a 5/5 flyer for 1 mana is great. Plus, you don't even have to build around it with fetchlands and so many low CMC spells in Modern. And it throws your opponent off by making him or her think, "how many more spells can I afford to play before its ability goes online?"
I used to run a mill deck with 4 Jace's Phantasms in it. When I didn't draw my mill spells, they rarely got 10 cards in their graveyard until after turn 6. It wouldn't be good in WUR Delver (unfortunately).
Here's my latest configuration. No changes mainboard. The SCG State Championships is this week so it'll be interesting to see the top 8. I don't plan on actually playing since I don't have all of the cards but do plan on going to trade with people and playtest.
I would probably run the Spell Snares in the maindeck over Electrolyze (Snare is good in almost every matchup while Electrolyze is pretty matchup dependent) and I would replace the Dispel with another Negate, but other than that this list looks good. I'm not going to states either, but that is just because I am watching the Pro Tour instead.
I don't like Elspeth I think she is a bit much, my mainboard threats are.
4 delver
4 snap
4 geist
1 clique
but to fair I never tested her.
I just think Stormbreath is a better BIG threat.
She seems awesome when she hits the table though, I may have to try her out but not sure what I would cut.
EDIT : I sideboard mirran crusader and sower of temptation for junk.
I am not a fan of Elspeth either, but that is just because I don't like having cards that cost more than 3 mana in our deck. Stormbreath Dragon costs 5 mana, which makes me like it even less.
Edit: Also, I probably would add another threat in there. 13 creatures is a bit too risky IMO. I also am not a fan of the 4th Geist. The legend rule comes up a lot.
Is Elspeth, Knight-Errant considered our go-to over the top spell? I have found we need cards that can put us over the top vs BGx or controlling decks similar to twin, would anyone agree that she is probably the best one to use? Other ones i thought about using as a 1 of sideboard is Outpost Siege, Keranos, God of Storms, and Jace, Architect of Thought. Those three provide card advantage the old fashion way, by drawing more of it. Elspeth does it in a different way, creating dudes and tossing Geists in the air is fantastic since he is already difficult to answer as it is. Anyone else find a good card that can work well as a haymaker type effect?
I'd say that, outside of something like Dig Through Time that is cheap and impactful enough to work very well, we don't want card advantage. Against BGx, our cards are usually worse than theirs, so we can't afford to durdle around with mediocre card-draw spells. Elspeth just kills them, which is why it is significantly better than cards like Jace and Outpost Siege.
Edit: Hero is a potent card and underplayed like elspeth. That said I would play her(?) in a lingering souls deck / bitter blossom deck and not in a delver shell because we can't go wide easily.
I wouldn't play Sphinx, getting it pathed would be devastating and we (as a blue deck) don't like to play from the top. Try VClique if u want a 3 drop with evasion and high power.
Sower is certainly VERY good against abzan - it doesn't get hit by decay and steals rhinos and goyfs. I didn't buy them because I think we will see a reprint soon and sower's price tag for a SB card is just too high for my taste. If you have them / want to buy them there is no reason not to play them. As a budget replacement you could run threats of disloyalty but this card got a lot worse due to delve cards (tasigur/hooting mandrills) and rhino.
Agreed, especially since they really don't want to keep Path to Exile in against us and Sower is also immune to Liliana, which means they basically need a 1-of Maelstrom Pulse to kill it. I'll try it out when it gets reprinted.
As a sidenote: I wouldn't run less than 2 deprives MD nowadays.
I've tried Deprive, but I often kept casting it on turn 2 and being unable to play Geist on turn 3.
After some goldfishing, I've come to the conclusion that Serum Visions is just bad, such anti-synergy with fetchlands. What do people think about cutting them and just use Gitaxian Probe? Below are some comments from the WUR Midrange thread about Serum Visions.
Yeah, Gerard's deck is much more control oriented. The current Geist builds tend to be more aggressive and so not in the market to slow down with Serum Visions to setups draw steps. Perhaps a slower more controlling version would want the SB or MB sweepers. Likely it would want soft and hard counters like Snare, Leak and Cryptic and probably some extra end game power. That means cutting some burn spells, which conflicts a bit with the aggressive Geist plan I think.
I think it can work (since I run a list more or less like that) but I don't know if that's the best build for the meta.
The deck #TeamGeist version eschew's selection by having a large number of redundant spells (mainly burn). It isn't quite a full on burn deck, but if most of the cards are proactive and similar, than the selection doesn't buy you as much as it does in a deck with many different types of spells.
Serum Visions has always worked for me. We are trying to play Aggro-Control. We want to be able to play the controlling role sometimes, and Serum Visions excels at that. It also helps us flip Delver without running an insane number of instants and sorceries, which supports our aggro aspects. Besides, we aren't losing much tempo when we use Serum Visions. It only costs 1 mana. Gitaxian Probe not scrying and promoting bad mulligan decisions makes me think that it is much worse. I only play it in decks with Young Pyromancer, Monastery Swiftspear, or Monastery Mentor.
This Grixis Delver list finished 26th at a SCG IQ and only has 18 lands, and has a Keranos, God of Storms and a Batterskull in the sideboard. I wasn't keen on having either in my sideboard since both have 5 CMC, but after seeing this, is it worth having either a WUR Delver sideboard with 20 lands?
It can work, but I'd rather have the 4 mana cards.
Can't you sideboard Izzet Staticaster against lingering souls from abzan? Seems legit.
You really can't against Junk. It only kills Lingering Souls in that matchup. Sideboard cards that only answer one specific threat in the opposing deck are unreliable. Staticaster is a strong sideboard card, but not against Lingering Souls.
Opinions?
I really like the late game Restoration Angel gives this deck, while not really messing with Delver's plan. All except 11 spells can be played at instant speed. I like that. I kinda want to fit some number of Grim Lavamancers in the 75 but dunno what to take out.
Looks solid, I think it is worth a try, though not sure about the Restoration Angels. Also, I was digging through old lists and found this. Chris Pillund - Top 8 Grand Prix Columbus 2012. If I recall, this was before the Deathrite Shaman era and the dominance of BGx Rock, so I don't think there was anything for BGx Rock in this sideboard.
I strongly dislike the old lists. They ran a bunch of lands to fuel Steppe Lynx with little regard to how much weaker it makes Delver and Snapcaster Mage. They might have made some sense back then, but Steppe Lynx is not worth it over Monastery Swiftspear if it is forcing you to play only 22 noncreature spells. I also think that 16 creatures was a little too much.
You can't bring in cards against Junk that only kill half of a Lingering Souls. It is way too easy to get stuck with Electrolyze against a Goyf, Rhino, or Tasigur.
Well, it's time to modify the 75 again lol. I'm mainboarding 2 Spell Snares and moving the Electrolyzes to the sideboard. I'm also replacing 1 Elspeth and 1 Negate for 2 Mirran Crusaders. And I'm replacing the Spreading Seas with Stony Silence.
I am not a fan of Stony Silence in this deck. Our Affinity matchup is decent anyways, and if you are bringing in 2 Electrolyze, 2 Wear // Tear, and 2 Engineered Explosives you should be favored either way. I'd cut it for 2 Spellskites. Also, I definitely like Negate more than Dispel.
Has anyone tried out Kitchen Finks as sideboard tech? It is decent against Burn and can replace Geist at the 3 CMC slot against Junk. Liliana -2 to sac Geist is bad for the Delver player. Liliana -2 to sac Finks is bad for the Junk player. Also, is Brimaz, King of Oreskos worth a look?
It is worse than Mirran Crusader against Junk (especially since it can't even trade with any of Junk's creatures) and it isn't impactful enough against Burn in my opinion. Brimaz is decent, but I really do not like 3-drops without protection from removal, an enter-the-battlefield effect, or haste.
Okay so I see we most agree UWR trumps Grixis. What about UWR vs Temur? We all know Tarmogoyf is an extremely powerful card but is it worth giving up all white has to offer? Let's look at some lists.
So from what I've seen, Green offers the arguably best 2 drop in he format, Tarmogoyf. That's all that is really included main board with the green addition. Ultimately we sacrifice some good removal and more burn in exchange for Tarmogoyf. Green also offers Ancient Grudge and Destructive Revelry for the sideboard but those cards aren't doing anything white can't do. The question is: are you willing to give up Path, Helix, Geist, and all of whites sideboard tech all for tarmogoyf? I guess it depends on the meta but I would say UWR is better than Temur.
I'd argue that RUG is significantly worse than Grixis. At least Grixis and WUR are close, but RUG doesn't abuse the splash well. I'd take Tasigur, Terminate, and Murderous Cut over Tarmogoyf, Destructive Revelry, and Ancient Grudge most of the time. Since I think even Grixis is worse than WUR, I'd say that RUG is significantly worse than WUR.
Okay so while White offers Geist, Path, Helix, Black offers Tasigur, Murderous Cut, Terminate. These are just 2 lists, each color also has other options, such as valorous stance, Boros Charm, Steppe Lynx, etc in White, and Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, and other kill spells in black. Also worth mentioning, Black versions run more cantrips to fuel Delve, which synergizes with Young Pyromancer.
First I'll compare creatures. Geist of Saint Traft vs Tasigur, the Golden Fang.
I don'y have ultimate knowledge on the modern format, but IMO Tasigur trumps Geist. Geist can attack for more in an empty board, but in a field full of Siege Rhinos and Tarmogoyfs, I believe Tasigur is the better card. Not to mention late game board stalls can be utilized with Tasigurs pseudo draw ability. I think black wins here.
Instants: Teminate, Murderous Cut, Thought Scour vs Lightning Helix, Path to Exile
Okay so black has more access to straight removal spells, it comes at a cost. To fuel Delver cards in black, you kinda have to play Thought Scour. IMO Thought Scour is a very underwhelming card, It does fuel your graveyard but really it's just a bad cantrip. It is good with Young Pyromancer as well, but I rather have a real card in my deck, not a cantrip. White offers Helix and Path, I think these are better options. Helix gives you a more favorable matchup against aggressive decks and gives you reach when you're playing as the aggressor. Path to Exile is a 1-mana kill all, but gives them a land. Despite that downside, the ability to clear the path of any creature for your Geists and friends to hit the red zone is quite worth it.
I think white wins here.
As for sideboards, I think it easily goes to white. White gets cards like Valorous Stance, Kor Firewalker, Stony Silence, Wear//Tear, Rule of Law, etc, while in most of the Grixis Delver decks I reviewed barely played any Black cards in their sideboards.
Grixis vs UWR : I think UWR is the stronger deck here. What do you think?
I think that Grixis is better at busing Young Pyromancer because of the additional cantrips, but WUR Delver is stronger overall. WUR Delver has similarly good removal and creatures (I'd definitely prefer Geist of Saint Traft over Tasigur in most cases in Delver. They come down at similar times, but Geist is better on an empty board, which we are trying to have against other decks and are pretty successful at getting). WUR Delver has many better sideboard cards as well, so the advantage ultimately goes to WUR.
Okay so I really want to play delver at GP Charlotte. But I'm having second thoughts on UWR. I feel like black might have more to offer than white. Some kill spells, Inquisition of Kozilek,Tasigur,and in Esper Delver we get Lingering Souls. Is it okay to have an discussion on this forum on the competitiveness of UWR Delver versus Esper, Temur, Grixis, UR, UB, etc. delver variants?
Yes, but only as a comparison to WUR Delver. Independently talking about them with no relation to WUR Delver should be in their threads.
I used to run a mill deck with 4 Jace's Phantasms in it. When I didn't draw my mill spells, they rarely got 10 cards in their graveyard until after turn 6. It wouldn't be good in WUR Delver (unfortunately).
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I would probably run the Spell Snares in the maindeck over Electrolyze (Snare is good in almost every matchup while Electrolyze is pretty matchup dependent) and I would replace the Dispel with another Negate, but other than that this list looks good. I'm not going to states either, but that is just because I am watching the Pro Tour instead.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I am not a fan of Elspeth either, but that is just because I don't like having cards that cost more than 3 mana in our deck. Stormbreath Dragon costs 5 mana, which makes me like it even less.
Edit: Also, I probably would add another threat in there. 13 creatures is a bit too risky IMO. I also am not a fan of the 4th Geist. The legend rule comes up a lot.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I'd say that, outside of something like Dig Through Time that is cheap and impactful enough to work very well, we don't want card advantage. Against BGx, our cards are usually worse than theirs, so we can't afford to durdle around with mediocre card-draw spells. Elspeth just kills them, which is why it is significantly better than cards like Jace and Outpost Siege.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Or Mantis Rider.
Agreed, especially since they really don't want to keep Path to Exile in against us and Sower is also immune to Liliana, which means they basically need a 1-of Maelstrom Pulse to kill it. I'll try it out when it gets reprinted.
I've tried Deprive, but I often kept casting it on turn 2 and being unable to play Geist on turn 3.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Serum Visions has always worked for me. We are trying to play Aggro-Control. We want to be able to play the controlling role sometimes, and Serum Visions excels at that. It also helps us flip Delver without running an insane number of instants and sorceries, which supports our aggro aspects. Besides, we aren't losing much tempo when we use Serum Visions. It only costs 1 mana. Gitaxian Probe not scrying and promoting bad mulligan decisions makes me think that it is much worse. I only play it in decks with Young Pyromancer, Monastery Swiftspear, or Monastery Mentor.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
It can work, but I'd rather have the 4 mana cards.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
You really can't against Junk. It only kills Lingering Souls in that matchup. Sideboard cards that only answer one specific threat in the opposing deck are unreliable. Staticaster is a strong sideboard card, but not against Lingering Souls.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I strongly dislike the old lists. They ran a bunch of lands to fuel Steppe Lynx with little regard to how much weaker it makes Delver and Snapcaster Mage. They might have made some sense back then, but Steppe Lynx is not worth it over Monastery Swiftspear if it is forcing you to play only 22 noncreature spells. I also think that 16 creatures was a little too much.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
You can't bring in cards against Junk that only kill half of a Lingering Souls. It is way too easy to get stuck with Electrolyze against a Goyf, Rhino, or Tasigur.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I am not a fan of Stony Silence in this deck. Our Affinity matchup is decent anyways, and if you are bringing in 2 Electrolyze, 2 Wear // Tear, and 2 Engineered Explosives you should be favored either way. I'd cut it for 2 Spellskites. Also, I definitely like Negate more than Dispel.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
It is worse than Mirran Crusader against Junk (especially since it can't even trade with any of Junk's creatures) and it isn't impactful enough against Burn in my opinion. Brimaz is decent, but I really do not like 3-drops without protection from removal, an enter-the-battlefield effect, or haste.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I'd argue that RUG is significantly worse than Grixis. At least Grixis and WUR are close, but RUG doesn't abuse the splash well. I'd take Tasigur, Terminate, and Murderous Cut over Tarmogoyf, Destructive Revelry, and Ancient Grudge most of the time. Since I think even Grixis is worse than WUR, I'd say that RUG is significantly worse than WUR.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I think that Grixis is better at busing Young Pyromancer because of the additional cantrips, but WUR Delver is stronger overall. WUR Delver has similarly good removal and creatures (I'd definitely prefer Geist of Saint Traft over Tasigur in most cases in Delver. They come down at similar times, but Geist is better on an empty board, which we are trying to have against other decks and are pretty successful at getting). WUR Delver has many better sideboard cards as well, so the advantage ultimately goes to WUR.
And why is WUR Delver worse than Grixis Delver?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Yes, but only as a comparison to WUR Delver. Independently talking about them with no relation to WUR Delver should be in their threads.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.