Okay so 23 instants and sorceries isn't wuite enough. However, I still believe Restoration Angel is a contender for a couple slots in the deck. It provides late game, more protection for your other creatures, and combos well with snapcaster mage. Maybe we don't play the dragon, go down to 2 Angels, and cut down to 21 lands, providing 3 instants, boosting us to 26, a reasonable delver-flip consistamcy amount. But with the one more land and restoration angels to keep us alive in bad midrange matchups, we can easily through a couple SB Dragons in the board IMO.
That sounds a lot better, though I prefer Lightning Angel to Restoration Angel in this deck (and I prefer Mantis Rider to Lightning Angel).
What do you guys think of kinda meshing UWR delver and UWR midrange? Keep delver, but instead of the unsettled final creature slot, run some restoration angels and a few more land. Also I feel better about casting Mirran Crusader with a more midrange deck. Also with the higher land count we could fit some storm breath dragons in the 75? Maybe something that looks like this:
I think this version (subject to change, but the idea of a more midrange Delver) is capable of playing either an aggro game (T1 Delver followed buy burn and snapcasters) a tempo game (stick delver and protect it and keep them off balance until resolving another threat) and even a controly/value game, using snapcaster resto angel combo to out value your opponent, deal with their threats, and eventually stick a stormbreath dragon or geist to finish them off.
What do you guys think?
This seems like it can't flip Delver consistently. Only 23 instants and sorceries hurts Delver a lot. I would choose between WUR Delver (with the curve at most topping out at a couple of 4-drops) and WUR Midrange (with no Delvers). I hope you choose WUR Delver.
How's this list? I really like Elspeth. If you're ahead she can help you quickly close the game, and if you're behind she can help you stabilize. Also, is Narset Transcendent worth a look?
I'd cut the Gitaxian Probes for 2 Spell Snares. Probe is pretty bad in this deck if you aren't playing Young Pyromancer, Monastery Swiftspear, or Monastery Mentor and Spell Snare is essential against decks like Junk and Affinity. Other than that (and the sideboard, not a big fan of Molten Rain or Dispel, would replace them with 3 Mirran Crusaders and a Counterflux), this deck looks pretty good.
Edit: Elspeth is also a good card in this deck. She is a little bit too expensive for my tastes, but with 20 lands she is good. I am more skeptical on Narset since she doesn't do anything proactive.
Steppe Lynx was a 4-of in the old lists, which were the only lists that ever made top 8 of a Grand Prix. It is a very good card in this deck. I personally prefer to play the deck with less aggro, but for the more aggressive
also what do you guys think of intrepid hero for junk and kitchen finks is a 3 drop we can play that nobody has mentioned
Intrepid Hero is worse than Mirran Crusader against Junk, is slow, dies to all of their removal, and doesn't have synergy with the rest of our deck. It is not a good card. Finks hasn't been mentioned because it doesn't do much in a relatively aggressive tempo deck. We are trying to play both the aggro and control roles as necessary. Finks can only really play the Control role since it isn't an aggressive card.
Boros Charm is really bad, it reads burn them, combat trick, or counter a removal spell. mana leak is better in aggro list than deprive, but spell snare should be 3-4 in a aggro shell, I don't like UWR for aggro though, if you want aggro I would play burn or UR delver
Burn, combat-tricks, and protection are exactly what this deck wants. I don't see how you could view that as a bad thing.
I would also add electrolyze because of lingering souls.
I don't like Electrolyze against Lingering Souls. The decks that play Lingering Souls are also usually the ones where all of the other threats have more than 2 toughness. This means Electrolyze does nothing outside of killing half of a Lingering Souls in matchups like Junk. That makes it a pretty bad card to leave in.
Okay after a day at school of thinking through this deck, reading through forums,going over the metagame (using mtgtop8 website) and reviewing MB and SB options here is where I have arrived.
Yes there are 13 cards in my sideboard, but I'm still undecided on what the last 2 slots will be. Keep in mind I'm taking this to a Grand Prix (Charlotte) so my meta is not just a LGS meta.
I have not play tested this list versus a gauntlet or anything, as I just made it today, but from what I've researched and read, this seems to be a good list. Please lend me your knowledge.
In response to Valanarch, I don't think I should run Grim Lavamancer or any of those 3 drops main because my objective is to be fast and aggressive, at least game 1. Also, because I want aggro, I feel like Boros Charm trumps Valorous Stance for my main board, because I'll often need just a little more burn so finish my opponent off after beating them with the early game Steppe Lynx.
Boros Charm probably makes more sense if you want to be aggressive and Steppe Lynx is the best aggressive creature if you don't want Gitaxian Probes (with them Monastery Swiftspear is better). As for your sideboard, I would replace the Dispel with another Negate and try to fit in 2-3 Mirran Crusaders for the Junk matchup. I also don't understand the purpose of the Spell Pierces in the sideboard.
Finally after a lot of testing and shedding tears against my friend's Abzan Wilt-Leaf, I found a build able to beat it and that also has good matchups against the local meta
Its low on threats and doesn't have Geist of Saint Traft but it is the build that has worked for me so far
I can't support a list with only 12 threats (especially since Snapcaster Mage isn't a great attacker anyways so it is like you only have 8), but if it is working for you you should continue with it. I personally would cut Electrolyze and a Snapcaster Mage for 3 Geists of Saint Traft and replace Boros Charm with Valorous Stance though.
What are some creatures I could play in place of Young Pyro? I want another playset of threats but I don't think its worth it to run 4 G Probes, as aggro decks are more of a problem than combo.
I'd run Grim Lavamancer as a 2-of and a choose 1 of either Mantis Rider, Myth Realized, or Mirran Crusader as your final slot.
Also, why are people playing valorous stance over something like boros charm? Boros charm makes all your stuff indestructable, and I think 4 damage to your opponents face will come up way more often than destroying a 4 toughness creature. On top of that you get to doublestrike something which may or may not come up but its still there.
Boros Charm might be useful in more matchups, but it is a lot less useful when it works. Valorous Stance is very helpful against decks like Junk. Normally against them you only have 4 removal spells+Snapcaster Mage. Valorous Stance adds 3 more and makes you have a much better shot against them.
I could use some help on deck tweeking, mainly been having a bad junk/jund type matchup, so i added some mirran crusaders to the sideboard to help g2-3, but I also kind of want to add 2 mantis rider to the main deck, but i don't know what is good to remove, this is the current build i use today:
previously i had in mirran crusader's spot 1 Counterflux and 1 Negate, I feel crusader will help my bad match ups with green decks like junk/jund and zoo a lot more due to protection. Any advice for changes or a possible fit for Mantis Rider would be great if you think something isn't good there.
If you want to be better against BGx, I'd cut the 2 Electrolyzes for 2 more copies of Valorous Stance.
This is my current deck. I sorta have a sideboard but it isn't set in stone, because the tournament I plan on going to with this is in a few months, and the meta can change. Before reading through this thread i didn't even know Steppe Lynx existed, and I have 4 Young Pyromancers in its place. Anyways, I need advice on what I should change in the main board, and what I should run in the sideboard. By the way, I plan on taking this bad boy to GP Charlotte, my second GP. My first GP was GP Richmond where I played Tribal Zoo, and went 7-3 or 7-2 something like that. Ive been playing Modern since 1 week before GP Richmond so about a year now.
If you are going to run Young Pyromancer, you should run 4 Gitaxian Probes. I'd cut a 2 lands (most likely the conclave and a fetchland) and either the Electrolyzes or 1 Snapcaster Mage and 1 Electrolyze. I also would cut a Mana Leak for a third Spell Snare, try to fit in some copies of Valorous Stance in the 75, replace the Vendilion Cliques with Counterfluxes, cut the Blood Moons from the sideboard (you don't run enough basics to safely run it IMO), replace Dispel with another Negate, and replace the Phyrexian Unlife and possibly the Kor Firewalkers with Timely Reinforcements.
From skimming through the posts, I have seen combinations of the following creatures used. How many slots in the mainboard should be devoted for creatures and which ones are the best ones worth mainboarding?
Steppe Lynx, Vendilion Clique, Figure of Destiny, Mirran Crusader, Mantis Rider, and possibly Myth Realized should also be added to that list of creatures that are sometimes seen in maindecks. 4 Delvers, 3-4 Snapcasters, and (in most players' opinions) 3 Geists are mandatory. The other 3-5 slots should probably be some combination of Young Pyromancer, Grim Lavamancer, Mantis Rider, Monastery Swiftspear, and (if it works well) Myth Realized.
Wait so Mantis Rider is a thing? Also could you take a look at my deck list a few posts up, I'm preparing for a GP and need critiques!
Mantis Rider used to be a thing. Back in the Treasure Cruise era, I top 4'd an SCG IQ with 3 Mantis Riders maindeck (It was hilarious in the Merfolk matchup in my last match before I drew into the top 8. I got 2 out and they just couldn't do anything.). It is nice because it is a 3-drop that has immediate impact. I might start running it again since it is strong against Junk and decent vs. Twin.
From skimming through the posts, I have seen combinations of the following creatures used. How many slots in the mainboard should be devoted for creatures and which ones are the best ones worth mainboarding?
Steppe Lynx, Vendilion Clique, Figure of Destiny, Mirran Crusader, Mantis Rider, and possibly Myth Realized should also be added to that list of creatures that are sometimes seen in maindecks. 4 Delvers, 3-4 Snapcasters, and (in most players' opinions) 3 Geists are mandatory. The other 3-5 slots should probably be some combination of Young Pyromancer, Grim Lavamancer, Mantis Rider, Monastery Swiftspear, and (if it works well) Myth Realized.
Myth Realized was reallllly bad when I was testing it.
1 Mana to activate it each time is ALOT
it grows very very very slowly, even if you run probe, I think young pyromancer is way better if you want that type of effect.
Yeah i have noticed that with my testing as well, for me, my white dude that i use is Monastery Mentor, although 3 mana is pretty high and he dies to bolt, the way he can spit out monks is astoundingly powerful, and he is a good top deck in the late game. You remember the power he had during our match on cockatrice
I personally think that unless we are playing 3 Geists and 4 Snapcaster Mages, we shouldn't be adding any more 3 mana threats. It starts to get very slow when you start attacking on turn 4 (which is why Mantis Rider is my additional 3-drop of choice instead of Brimaz, Vendilion Clique, Monastery Mentor, Goblin Rabblemaster, or Mirran Crusader [most of the time, I used to be running a maindeck Crusader])
I personally prefer using mentor over Geist for my version. I find both strong in their own ways, both produce tokens that can be extremely powerful, but I hate having to hold back Geist if my opponent has bigger creatures than me. At least with mentor and open mana, you can threaten a big pump for him and your tokens when you attack with them. While it is susceptible to abrupt decay and bolt, I love the mentor. Especially paired with Jeskai Charm for a huge life gain swing.
I just don't think that creatures that do nothing until turn 4 and have no protection are great in this deck. Geist with removal backup is unbeatable for most decks. Mentor just dies for way too much and is too slow for me to want it.
Myth Realized was reallllly bad when I was testing it.
1 Mana to activate it each time is ALOT
it grows very very very slowly, even if you run probe, I think young pyromancer is way better if you want that type of effect.
Yeah i have noticed that with my testing as well, for me, my white dude that i use is Monastery Mentor, although 3 mana is pretty high and he dies to bolt, the way he can spit out monks is astoundingly powerful, and he is a good top deck in the late game. You remember the power he had during our match on cockatrice
I personally think that unless we are playing 3 Geists and 4 Snapcaster Mages, we shouldn't be adding any more 3 mana threats. It starts to get very slow when you start attacking on turn 4 (which is why Mantis Rider is my additional 3-drop of choice instead of Brimaz, Vendilion Clique, Monastery Mentor, Goblin Rabblemaster, or Mirran Crusader [most of the time, I used to be running a maindeck Crusader])
You run 0 Deprives? Deprive is like the counterspell in the deck. WAY better than mana leak, Im on a 2-2 split, but might go 3-1 split soon.
I don't like remand it all, I think it is only good in combo decks like Scapeshift/Twin since they can win out of nowhere and don't care about dealing with troublesome spells while we do.
EDIT : you run very low/none sideboard hate for Junk, I would def add some Mirran Crusaders/Stormbreath Dragon/Elspeth Knight Errant since junk is the most played deck everywhere I go.
I am currently running 4 Remands and 0 Deprives. I have tried Deprive and it often stops me from playing a 3-drop and it is terrible with Snapcaster Mage. Remand buys time, and with this deck, time is often all that you need.
While lowering threat density is bad, having a high threat density and less spells makes almost all of your creatures a lot worse.
[color=black]That is true - I wouldn't go below 25 spells. I am currently playing 15 creatures when cruise was legal I was playing 14.[/color]
Agreed. I am currently running 14 creatures.
I personally think that relying on your opponent ramping you is too risky. Mirran Crusader is as strong as Stormbreath Dragon against BGx for 2 mana less.
[color=black]Crusader dies to bolt - and bolt is one of the most played cards in modern. As I stated before - as a 1off MD and 1off SB card the dragon is fine - I do have access to 3 crusaders in my board as well though (replacing 4 geists with 3 crusader + 1 dragon).[/color]
Bolt isn't played in Junk, which you said is why you are running Stormbreath Dragon.
To be fair, that pro went 5-5, so I don't think we should be modeling our deck after him. Also, what decks are worse against Blood Moon that us? Amulet Bloom and Domain Zoo are worse against it than us, but that is basically it. Playing it is just making our lives harder.
[color=black]The decks I would want it for are: Bloom Titan, Scapeshift, Tron, 4+ colour decks (like gifts), Sultai decks in general, probably against control (but this deck doesn't see any play to be fair). Even if he went 5-5 a closer look at his MUs shows us that his reasoning is solid. I do think that this approach could be at least considered. I was playing blood moon jund in a GP a while back and missed the win and in for day 2 by 1 match without byes - it is possible to get this mana base to work if we want it.
I guess it is good against Tron and Scapeshift (assuming you have a clock out already and enough lands to keep up a protection spell against Pyroclasm), but the BUG decks and most Control decks run more basics than us and they run maindeck enchantment destruction/bounce. If you want a sideboard card against Scapeshift, Tron, 4C Gifts, and Amulet, I guess Blood Moon works, but otherwise I wouldn't run it.
That sounds a lot better, though I prefer Lightning Angel to Restoration Angel in this deck (and I prefer Mantis Rider to Lightning Angel).
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
This seems like it can't flip Delver consistently. Only 23 instants and sorceries hurts Delver a lot. I would choose between WUR Delver (with the curve at most topping out at a couple of 4-drops) and WUR Midrange (with no Delvers). I hope you choose WUR Delver.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I'd cut the Gitaxian Probes for 2 Spell Snares. Probe is pretty bad in this deck if you aren't playing Young Pyromancer, Monastery Swiftspear, or Monastery Mentor and Spell Snare is essential against decks like Junk and Affinity. Other than that (and the sideboard, not a big fan of Molten Rain or Dispel, would replace them with 3 Mirran Crusaders and a Counterflux), this deck looks pretty good.
Edit: Elspeth is also a good card in this deck. She is a little bit too expensive for my tastes, but with 20 lands she is good. I am more skeptical on Narset since she doesn't do anything proactive.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Steppe Lynx was a 4-of in the old lists, which were the only lists that ever made top 8 of a Grand Prix. It is a very good card in this deck. I personally prefer to play the deck with less aggro, but for the more aggressive
Intrepid Hero is worse than Mirran Crusader against Junk, is slow, dies to all of their removal, and doesn't have synergy with the rest of our deck. It is not a good card. Finks hasn't been mentioned because it doesn't do much in a relatively aggressive tempo deck. We are trying to play both the aggro and control roles as necessary. Finks can only really play the Control role since it isn't an aggressive card.
Burn, combat-tricks, and protection are exactly what this deck wants. I don't see how you could view that as a bad thing.
I don't like Electrolyze against Lingering Souls. The decks that play Lingering Souls are also usually the ones where all of the other threats have more than 2 toughness. This means Electrolyze does nothing outside of killing half of a Lingering Souls in matchups like Junk. That makes it a pretty bad card to leave in.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Boros Charm probably makes more sense if you want to be aggressive and Steppe Lynx is the best aggressive creature if you don't want Gitaxian Probes (with them Monastery Swiftspear is better). As for your sideboard, I would replace the Dispel with another Negate and try to fit in 2-3 Mirran Crusaders for the Junk matchup. I also don't understand the purpose of the Spell Pierces in the sideboard.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I can't support a list with only 12 threats (especially since Snapcaster Mage isn't a great attacker anyways so it is like you only have 8), but if it is working for you you should continue with it. I personally would cut Electrolyze and a Snapcaster Mage for 3 Geists of Saint Traft and replace Boros Charm with Valorous Stance though.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I'd run Grim Lavamancer as a 2-of and a choose 1 of either Mantis Rider, Myth Realized, or Mirran Crusader as your final slot.
Boros Charm might be useful in more matchups, but it is a lot less useful when it works. Valorous Stance is very helpful against decks like Junk. Normally against them you only have 4 removal spells+Snapcaster Mage. Valorous Stance adds 3 more and makes you have a much better shot against them.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
If you want to be better against BGx, I'd cut the 2 Electrolyzes for 2 more copies of Valorous Stance.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
If you are going to run Young Pyromancer, you should run 4 Gitaxian Probes. I'd cut a 2 lands (most likely the conclave and a fetchland) and either the Electrolyzes or 1 Snapcaster Mage and 1 Electrolyze. I also would cut a Mana Leak for a third Spell Snare, try to fit in some copies of Valorous Stance in the 75, replace the Vendilion Cliques with Counterfluxes, cut the Blood Moons from the sideboard (you don't run enough basics to safely run it IMO), replace Dispel with another Negate, and replace the Phyrexian Unlife and possibly the Kor Firewalkers with Timely Reinforcements.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Mantis Rider used to be a thing. Back in the Treasure Cruise era, I top 4'd an SCG IQ with 3 Mantis Riders maindeck (It was hilarious in the Merfolk matchup in my last match before I drew into the top 8. I got 2 out and they just couldn't do anything.). It is nice because it is a 3-drop that has immediate impact. I might start running it again since it is strong against Junk and decent vs. Twin.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Steppe Lynx, Vendilion Clique, Figure of Destiny, Mirran Crusader, Mantis Rider, and possibly Myth Realized should also be added to that list of creatures that are sometimes seen in maindecks. 4 Delvers, 3-4 Snapcasters, and (in most players' opinions) 3 Geists are mandatory. The other 3-5 slots should probably be some combination of Young Pyromancer, Grim Lavamancer, Mantis Rider, Monastery Swiftspear, and (if it works well) Myth Realized.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I just don't think that creatures that do nothing until turn 4 and have no protection are great in this deck. Geist with removal backup is unbeatable for most decks. Mentor just dies for way too much and is too slow for me to want it.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I personally think that unless we are playing 3 Geists and 4 Snapcaster Mages, we shouldn't be adding any more 3 mana threats. It starts to get very slow when you start attacking on turn 4 (which is why Mantis Rider is my additional 3-drop of choice instead of Brimaz, Vendilion Clique, Monastery Mentor, Goblin Rabblemaster, or Mirran Crusader [most of the time, I used to be running a maindeck Crusader])
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I am currently running 4 Remands and 0 Deprives. I have tried Deprive and it often stops me from playing a 3-drop and it is terrible with Snapcaster Mage. Remand buys time, and with this deck, time is often all that you need.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Agreed. I am currently running 14 creatures.
Bolt isn't played in Junk, which you said is why you are running Stormbreath Dragon.
I guess it is good against Tron and Scapeshift (assuming you have a clock out already and enough lands to keep up a protection spell against Pyroclasm), but the BUG decks and most Control decks run more basics than us and they run maindeck enchantment destruction/bounce. If you want a sideboard card against Scapeshift, Tron, 4C Gifts, and Amulet, I guess Blood Moon works, but otherwise I wouldn't run it.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.