I think many of you are going entirely the wrong route with these new Eldrazi. Let's not abandon what makes this deck good in the first place.
I do have to agree with this. After testing my new list out quite a bit, I'm back to the drawing board. The deck definitely doesn't function the same without our classic Sowers and Herders. But putting them back in brings up the issue against aggro and tron once again. I'm wondering if main board sweepers is the way to go, kind of like what tron is doing with pyroclasm in the main.
I think Mirrodin's Core is terrible because you can't use it immediately (would feel awful to topdeck), and because you have to waste a turn tapping it to build counters. Someone in the main Eldrazi thread mentioned using Tendo Ice Bridge, which I think is a better solution. I would also be running more Godless Shrines in a fetchless build. You have 7 sources of untapped white mana in a deck that wants access to white early for path. I would cut the Cores for maybe 3 godless, 2 tendo?
Not bad ideas, I'll try that out. The manabase is gonna take some time to figure out ratios that work.
Alright guys, I present the first new deck idea in a while: BW Eldrazi Midrange. The new creatures we've gotten have little to no setup required and provide a lot of value. Reshaper grabs another card, Thought-Knot is a delayed clique, and Smasher... Well, he smashes things. As well, Warping Wail, Path to Exile, and Thought-Knot Seer all setup Strangler. The idea is to drop all the situational stuff, and play a faster deck with less setup required. Relic of Progenitus, Blight Herder, and Oblivion Sower are all cut for lower cost creatures. Against Aggro, we now have early creatures to trade or block. Against midrange, our creatures still provide enough value to make it an easy matchup. Against combo and control, we have a much faster clock now, so we can simply race them. Let me know what you all think, this is quite a drastic change. And I know that some of you are very against dropping Herder, Sower, and Relics, but I feel like this is a direction very much worth exploring. Maybe it won't work out, but we should at least think about it and give it a shot. I mean hey, Heartless Summoning made an appearance at SCG this weekend.
After a decent amount of testing, I really feel like we need another card like Caves of Koilos (Post-OGW). It really is the tri-land for this deck, it's always so good to draw. I've been thinking about using Mirrodin's Core as Caves 5-8. It doesn't give you the color you need on turn 1, but it does stop you from getting color/colorless screwed. My current landbase looks like this, thoughts? (Note that I'm too poor to get Marsh Flats)
We could preemptively set up some contingency plan against Blood Moon. I'm thinking 1-2 copies of Wastes (makes Expedition Map even more useful) and maybe another basic or two. I feel like the tempo version someone introduced earlier in this page would benefit from this kind of lean manabase.
What do you folks think of this MB removal package:
4 PtE
2 Warping Wail
1 Go for the Throat
1 Slaughter Pact
And maybe another Pact in the SB.
What dodges all of these removal spells that we really care about? Really wish we had some kind of Forked Bolt in black...
I don't think Map is worth playing anymore, nor is Wastes. We have so many playable early game threats now, we don't need to be cracking maps and taking punches early on anymore. Mapping into wastes seems so awful, I'd never want to do that. I'd rather have something to just kill the Blood Moon. And that spell lineup seems fine, I'm thinking about 4 PtE, 2 Wail, 1 Pact. And the answer is Bogles. The matchup is a hellish nightmare. Lili helps a ton, if you play it. But they can figure out how to play around it pretty easily once they know it's there.
Has anyone looked at Utter End or is it just too expensive? (or just unnecessary?)
Currently building monoblack version for casual but I definitely plan to try a B/W version next.
It seems very versatile for sure. But is is the best option we have available? Probably not. I feel this would fight for the 2-of slot where we have Dismember, Go for the Throat, and Warping Wail all fighting it out. Utter End feels a bit too slow, I'd rather have removal that comes down earlier. I feel like Wail is a strong pick right now for that slot.
Has anyone had the feeling that the bw eldrazideck is kinda depressing? its white, black and grey - there is no vibrant colour and all the eldrazi or devoid are in muted colours. I kinda miss red, blue and green ;_;
That's the flavor of the deck though. It's like why wastes is our basic land type: the once flourishing land has now been ravaged by the eldrazi, now bland and devoid of any color or life. I, for one, welcome our new eldrazi overlords.
The one thing I need help with is my sideboard. I'm mostly trying to prevent myself from losing to fast aggro decks and blood moon, but man I've basically punted my tron matchup. How are you guys beating tron in Black White colors?
That build looks like a good start, it's similar to what I was thinking of trying out as well. I'll report playtesting results soon enough. I also think it's worth trying out Warping Wail over Dismember/Go for the Throat. Every time I read Wail, I like it even more. As removal, it's able to kill Exarch/Pestermite, Young Pyro, Jace and Delver pre-flip, lots of Affinity stuff, infect guys, Viscera Seer, Spike Feeder when they start the combo, and a lot more. As a counterspell, it stops win cons like Scapeshift and Summer Bloom. Also stops hand attack and even some burn spells. And worst comes to worse, it pops out a blocker or a one-time ramp if you need to desperately ramp. It's so versatile, I love it.
Against Tron, the matchup is definitely an uphill battle. Stony Silence in the side slows them down a lot. Our new faster creatures should help us get there, and forces them to minus karn which makes it much more dealable. But it's like they say, it's not the first Karn or Wurmcoil that kills you. It's the second.
Edit: Aven Mindcensor is also something I'm trying out in the board for tron and other combo decks.
hey everyone, I've been watching and reading this thread for a while now. Having watched this deck demolish Grixis on camera last weekend I've become a huge fan. I traded in my tron deck a while ago (I wasn't happy with it, it really wasn't my style, as a player that enjoys interaction; tron felt like solitaire, it's a great deck, but just not my style).
Which is the best Variant to build? Will Oath change this deck a ton?
Thanks for the input!
It's definitely too early to call a best build. The deck is still under a ton of testing. Oath will massively change the deck for sure, there's at least 4-5 playable cards coming out. Some builds will stay similar, some will change completely. It's an awesome time where we get to try out a ton of stuff as a new modern deck is established!
I think it could be good for an aggro variant, but not worth the slot in a grindy variant like BW.
It's been said before, the reason this deck falls is when it takes too long to get started and just can't play anything early. Having an early drop that is able to trade favorably or even just chump block and dig 1 card deeper (also ramping us 1 land half the time) seems like exactly what this deck wants to solve this problem. It's not color intensive, doesn't require any setup, and lets us establish something on the board so we don't just get run over. We don't need more late game grind cards because we can already reliably do that. We need something to help our early game. Why do you feel that this doesn't fit in with our deck? Is there another weakness you think we should be addressing?
Doesn't Endless one check all of the boxes you mention (other than the one extra card) while ALSO providing late game value?
He does, and that's why we played him. But using him to chump block really sucked, and if he was removed you were just as far behind. I value the ramp and/or card draw this card gives very highly. We don't have access to Serum Visions like other control decks do, so this is what lets us dig. In a grind matchup, I'd rather see a 3/2 that guarantees another card when I'm in topdeck mode. If we just want Endless One because he's big late game, we have all our other creatures to do that. To me, this card fills in the slot that Endless One took, but does it better.
I think it could be good for an aggro variant, but not worth the slot in a grindy variant like BW.
It's been said before, the reason this deck falls is when it takes too long to get started and just can't play anything early. Having an early drop that is able to trade favorably or even just chump block and dig 1 card deeper (also ramping us 1 land half the time) seems like exactly what this deck wants to solve this problem. It's not color intensive, doesn't require any setup, and lets us establish something on the board so we don't just get run over. We don't need more late game grind cards because we can already reliably do that. We need something to help our early game. Why do you feel that this doesn't fit in with our deck? Is there another weakness you think we should be addressing?
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I do have to agree with this. After testing my new list out quite a bit, I'm back to the drawing board. The deck definitely doesn't function the same without our classic Sowers and Herders. But putting them back in brings up the issue against aggro and tron once again. I'm wondering if main board sweepers is the way to go, kind of like what tron is doing with pyroclasm in the main.
Green is definitely worth considering. We have Stirrings and Breaker, as you said, and also Abrupt Decay. However, white brings us Path to Exile, Lingering Souls, Vault of the Archangel, and a whole bunch of sideboard options such as Stony Silence, Timely Reinforcements, Disenchant, and Aven Mindcensor. I'm really attached to all of these cards and they are definitely all-stars in the deck, but I am interested to see how green works out for people.
Not bad ideas, I'll try that out. The manabase is gonna take some time to figure out ratios that work.
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Reality Smasher
3 Wasteland Strangler
3 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Eldrazi Displacer
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Spells (19)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
4 Path to Exile
4 Warping Wail
2 Go for the Throat
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Eye of Ugin
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Mirrodin's Core
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Shambling Vent
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Godless Shrine
3 Plains
3 Swamp
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Timely Reinforcements
2 Stony Silence
2 Languish
2 Disenchant
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 All Is Dust
2 Chalice of the Void
Manabase is still very much in the works. I might want to find room in the main for Thoughtseize, Eldrazi Displacer might get the axe again.
I've considered it, but it's very easy to open it without any color source and then it's just dead completely.
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Eye of Ugin
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Mirrodin's Core
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
2 Plains
2 Swamp
I don't think Map is worth playing anymore, nor is Wastes. We have so many playable early game threats now, we don't need to be cracking maps and taking punches early on anymore. Mapping into wastes seems so awful, I'd never want to do that. I'd rather have something to just kill the Blood Moon. And that spell lineup seems fine, I'm thinking about 4 PtE, 2 Wail, 1 Pact. And the answer is Bogles. The matchup is a hellish nightmare. Lili helps a ton, if you play it. But they can figure out how to play around it pretty easily once they know it's there.
It seems very versatile for sure. But is is the best option we have available? Probably not. I feel this would fight for the 2-of slot where we have Dismember, Go for the Throat, and Warping Wail all fighting it out. Utter End feels a bit too slow, I'd rather have removal that comes down earlier. I feel like Wail is a strong pick right now for that slot.
That's the flavor of the deck though. It's like why wastes is our basic land type: the once flourishing land has now been ravaged by the eldrazi, now bland and devoid of any color or life. I, for one, welcome our new eldrazi overlords.
That build looks like a good start, it's similar to what I was thinking of trying out as well. I'll report playtesting results soon enough. I also think it's worth trying out Warping Wail over Dismember/Go for the Throat. Every time I read Wail, I like it even more. As removal, it's able to kill Exarch/Pestermite, Young Pyro, Jace and Delver pre-flip, lots of Affinity stuff, infect guys, Viscera Seer, Spike Feeder when they start the combo, and a lot more. As a counterspell, it stops win cons like Scapeshift and Summer Bloom. Also stops hand attack and even some burn spells. And worst comes to worse, it pops out a blocker or a one-time ramp if you need to desperately ramp. It's so versatile, I love it.
Against Tron, the matchup is definitely an uphill battle. Stony Silence in the side slows them down a lot. Our new faster creatures should help us get there, and forces them to minus karn which makes it much more dealable. But it's like they say, it's not the first Karn or Wurmcoil that kills you. It's the second.
Edit: Aven Mindcensor is also something I'm trying out in the board for tron and other combo decks.
It's definitely too early to call a best build. The deck is still under a ton of testing. Oath will massively change the deck for sure, there's at least 4-5 playable cards coming out. Some builds will stay similar, some will change completely. It's an awesome time where we get to try out a ton of stuff as a new modern deck is established!
He does, and that's why we played him. But using him to chump block really sucked, and if he was removed you were just as far behind. I value the ramp and/or card draw this card gives very highly. We don't have access to Serum Visions like other control decks do, so this is what lets us dig. In a grind matchup, I'd rather see a 3/2 that guarantees another card when I'm in topdeck mode. If we just want Endless One because he's big late game, we have all our other creatures to do that. To me, this card fills in the slot that Endless One took, but does it better.
It's been said before, the reason this deck falls is when it takes too long to get started and just can't play anything early. Having an early drop that is able to trade favorably or even just chump block and dig 1 card deeper (also ramping us 1 land half the time) seems like exactly what this deck wants to solve this problem. It's not color intensive, doesn't require any setup, and lets us establish something on the board so we don't just get run over. We don't need more late game grind cards because we can already reliably do that. We need something to help our early game. Why do you feel that this doesn't fit in with our deck? Is there another weakness you think we should be addressing?