Hey guys. I played yesterday a list of Blue Jund but played cruel ultimatum. Went quite well. Don't know if I should post the list here since it is not cruel control. You can find the list in the link below.
I am planning to make a new list which is based on this whole Blue Jund/Grixis Control idea but adding Cruel Ultimatum. The ability to cast Cruel Ultimatum from the GY with a flipped Jace is just too tempting. I don't know if you guys are interested for a list, I can post it when I have it ready and post results of a small tourney I ll go on Friday.
I'd like to make a comment based on MrRotten's Cruel version 3.03, and please assist me if I missed anything on the thread I was away for a while.
I really like this kind of list, something like that is probably what I would play today if I was going to play Cruel Control. The thing is, it goes too close to the new Grixis no ultimatum lists, which is not bad, on the contrary. So I am wondering if it is worth trying, now that all the grixis control decks up their land numbers (22-23), to jam a Cruel Ultimatum in a Grixis control deck (and probably one in the SB for grindy MUs) instead of other win conditions. Maybe it would require some mana tweaking but wouldn't it be worth a shot?
I don't have much experience with cruel control in just grixis, but I played it the entire time we had ultimatum + vivid lands in standard. My assumption would be that a 4/5 color mana base off of vivid lands + reflecting pools would be LESS painful, but basically half a turn slower. So, the question becomes, can you be efficient enough to survive long enough to "turn the corner" from a half-turn deficit? If you can, the 4c vivid/reflecting pool version is extremely powerful, offering the best of everything--slot removal, countermagic, planeswalkers, threats... It's a question of tradeoffs.
I hate to answer this in such an absolute manner but I would say no. There is absolutely no way to support so many taplands and still be efficient in such a fast-paced meta game. We are already running a minimum of 4 tapalnds (any combination of manlands). Adding 4-6 more (to support vivids+reflecting) would just be devastating. T1 tapland into T2 tapland into T3 tapland and you die to a single threat pretty much. From my experience with the deck we can already support reflecting pool properly without adding Vivids which are just sub-par to everything else we have available in our mana pool.
My problem with Rune Snag is that once your opponent has seen it G1 it is much easier to play around it rather than playing around Mana Leak and weakens the card a lot.
I really like this list except I have a few questions: Why do you have one Darkslick shores? One River of tears seems better in this situation. Other than that I like this list a lot. Good Job:)
well at that point why not just play drowned catacomb since you're almost always going to be able to play it untapped given that you're not going to keep a 1 lander and almost every land in ur list makes it come into play untapped (except for 5?). Am I missing something?
River of Tears for me is not that great in that deck. Especially when you want to have access to both blue and black since you want to cast Cryptic as well as Cruel Ultimatum.
The problem with Drowned Catacomb is that it's not coming untapped T1.
Darkslick shores was just an idea of the moment since I play it in my other decks, it isn't necessarily correct. I haven't done any math behind this mana base as of yet, which I probably should. But the choice was based on the fact that I am playing 5 discard spells and Darkslick shores help me cast'em T1.
Of course we can't copy but we can adjust. Watching Fabiano's list, he didn't usually use the goyfs to pressure early game. I didn't his deck as being a BGx with blue, the style of his game was much different, holding goyfs to play them when it was safe etc. What we have to offer in exchange are lightning bolts (both removals and a way of pressuring our opponent) as well as a catch all removal. The core idea I guess is to get rid of early threats (with discard), counter the rest, win with tasigur/manlands.
What about going to a list similar to Fabiano's BUG control deck with the anticipates now that they are out? I feel they are much much better for us than Serum Visions.
This is obviously not a tested list but it leans towards the early discard disruption into counters into winning with Tasigur/Creeping Tar pit. Maybe 2 Cruel Ultimatums with 24 lands is a bit optimistic but we make the game go long anyway. The mana list is also shaky but is a starting point. I have been toying with similar lists, both the Sultai (obviously ) as well as a similar version for my UB Faeries and it generally works wonders. I haven't tested it for grixis yet so what do you guys think?
I just have to jump in the command speculation bandwagon, my prediction is:
Optimistic prediction:
4 mana
-Counter target non creature spell
-Target creature gets -4/-4/Destroy target mono/multicolored creature
-Target player puts the top 4-6 cards of his or her library
-Look at target player's hand, discard a non land, non creature spell
Pesimistic prediction:
-Counter target non creature spell
-Target player discards two cards
-Mill your opponent only
-Bounce
If someone goes the hard control route (26 lands and limited creatures) I can't see why anyone would ever want to not play cruel ultimatum. It is an 1 card combo.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/624058-abbot-jace-grixis-blue-jund?page=22#c540
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
I really like this kind of list, something like that is probably what I would play today if I was going to play Cruel Control. The thing is, it goes too close to the new Grixis no ultimatum lists, which is not bad, on the contrary. So I am wondering if it is worth trying, now that all the grixis control decks up their land numbers (22-23), to jam a Cruel Ultimatum in a Grixis control deck (and probably one in the SB for grindy MUs) instead of other win conditions. Maybe it would require some mana tweaking but wouldn't it be worth a shot?
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
I don't know if it has been discussed already. There is the weirdest Cruel control list I have ever seen in this article.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
It looks more like a grixis moon deck than a grixis control deck, which I don't really like but I thought I should share.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
River of Tears for me is not that great in that deck. Especially when you want to have access to both blue and black since you want to cast Cryptic as well as Cruel Ultimatum.
The problem with Drowned Catacomb is that it's not coming untapped T1.
Darkslick shores was just an idea of the moment since I play it in my other decks, it isn't necessarily correct. I haven't done any math behind this mana base as of yet, which I probably should. But the choice was based on the fact that I am playing 5 discard spells and Darkslick shores help me cast'em T1.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
An example would be:
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Thundermaw Hellkite / Batterskull
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Cryptic Command
3 Mana Leak
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
4 Anticipate
3 Terminate
2 Damnation
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Darkslick Shores
This is obviously not a tested list but it leans towards the early discard disruption into counters into winning with Tasigur/Creeping Tar pit. Maybe 2 Cruel Ultimatums with 24 lands is a bit optimistic but we make the game go long anyway. The mana list is also shaky but is a starting point. I have been toying with similar lists, both the Sultai (obviously ) as well as a similar version for my UB Faeries and it generally works wonders. I haven't tested it for grixis yet so what do you guys think?
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Optimistic prediction:
4 mana
-Counter target non creature spell
-Target creature gets -4/-4/Destroy target mono/multicolored creature
-Target player puts the top 4-6 cards of his or her library
-Look at target player's hand, discard a non land, non creature spell
Pesimistic prediction:
-Counter target non creature spell
-Target player discards two cards
-Mill your opponent only
-Bounce
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past