Don't you guys think that Far/Away is a far better choice than geth's verdict? It is the same mana cost, with another relevant ability and better late game option
Maybe you also want to consider going 9 fetches with 4 Scalding Tarns or drop the Mire for a Tarn. I would possibly run 9 fetches and 4 Tar pits instead of the Drowned Catacombs.
Keranos I think is still too slow. Especially if your meta has burn, fish and delver. An extra electrlyze, spell snare, anger of the gods, all fit the slot I think.
I would like 2x edict effects on the SB because boggles MU is simply terrible. I would replace the Fallouts if you chose to go Anger of the Gods main. Also i would up the number of Slaughter Games to 3 to secure scapeshift MU. 1x thoughtseize is not all that relevant as well. Either up it or replace it with Threads of disloyalty (which is amazing) or something else.
1) I would swap one terminate for one Slaughter Pact. Being able to tap out your turn with the ability to kill something on their turn is just amazing. I used to run a list with more planeswalkers and 1 more damnation but I think it would work on your list as well. The card is simply too good to ignore in this deck.
2) I would want 1 Anger of the Gods mainboard. Maybe cutting down the dismember which might eat precious lifepoints. Anger of the Gods is relevant right now against a large percentage of the field, especially with the rise of UR delver. And if you decide to include the Slaughter Pact Dismember isn't really needed.
3) I would change 1 Ghost Quarter for 1 Island because 3 colorless lands are too much for a deck that runs 2 Cruel Ultimatum and the Urborg for a Reflecting Pool (although this is a bit of a preference).
4) on the sideboard, this used to be my sideboard in the last version of the deck I played
Olivia is decent though and since you run Batterskull main Olivia is good in the side. Rakdos charm is kind of great. Threads is one of my favorite SB cards and I don't see why a blue control deck wouldn't want it. I like the inclusion of Teferi, it can be game changing. I don't really like Molten Rain, I would strongly prefer Sowing Salt. Deathmark is not that relevant any more but spellskite still is I think.
5) I used to run 2x Think Twice. I think the DTT is just the single best card we wanted to run over them. I wouldn't go as far as playing more than 2 though. I can also see cutting on Snapcasters in favor of more spells like 2nd damnation and more fuel for DTT. I used to run 2x Snapcaster before delve, and I could justify it now even more.
6) The vendiliong clique I don't think is really relevant. It is a great one of in general but what is its exact point in this deck?
7) 2 Cruel Ultimatums I feel is the right number. 1 is too much of glass cannon and 3 is waaaay too many.
Always choose Scalding Tarn over Bloodstained Mire. I would suggest something like 4 Scalding Tarn, 3 Polluted Delta 1 Bloodstained mire. Also, why would you want to run volcanic fallout and consume the meek over damnation? Fallout and Consume basically hit the same targets (but fallout doesnt hit tarmo). Damnation hits larger threats which they actually exist.
Also i don't get the inclusion of izzet charm. The card does a lot of things badly. If you are going to run a teachings list (which i wouldn't recommend) then you might as well run more powerful cards than izzer charm.
I don't really like the card. The bounce part is not extremely relevant, we need to win on card advantage and it doesn't really provide any. The 2nd part is a worse dismember and the 3rd is simply irrelevant.
If you are so desperate to dig for ultimatum wouldn't diabolic tutor be better?
Then again, you can win even without resolving ultimatum
I think this is a wrong perception. You are not desperate to find cruel ultimatum, CU is the decks main win condition. Of course you could possibly win w/o resolving a cruel ultimatum, just the way you can win any match given the right conditions. More often than not however you will be winning games with Cruel Ultimatum, and being able to dig for CU+protection is crucial for this decks legitimacy.
And no, diabolic tutor is not better. It is sorcery speed, fixed mana cost and only bring 1 card.
I don't know why Cruel Ultimatum is still underquestion here. Our man-lands are not as powerful as Celestial Colonnade and Cruel Ultimatum is way better than sphinx's revelation which is a standard in UWR control decks (as one or two of).
On the remand/think twice discussion, I think that Shadow of Doubt fills a different spot than the other two cards. Between remand and think twice, depending on the style you want to play you should choose. If you want to tempo/discard then go with remand. If you want to play hard control, imho think twice is better.
Well, his list is nothing special. On the contrary I can see some flows. As always with decks like these, people in this forum have them figured out way before the pros do just because they don't decide to pick it up and see the potential. Hopefully now some people will do.
Think Twice is just better than Desperate Ravings. Also, it is better to run a damnation over a Consume the meek cause Consume misses a lot of targets. I wouldn't play thoughtseize as one of, it is better to have the tech in the SB. Against what would you board in Liliana? She has always underperformed for me, but that said I want to play draw-go and discarding a card is not an option.
I hate to be that guy, but i think we are kind of losing track. If none else noticed, this deck is gonna move (probably) to the Deck Creation section of the forum, meaning it is lacking results in the past 6 months. Shouldn't we try to figure out what happened or didn't happen and we are at that situation rather than anything else?
Ok, so I've been playing this deck (among others) for over a year now and I would like to give my thoughts on the new set and on what we get.
Obviously there is no huge card coming our way which would shift everything in our favor over other control decks. I do believe however that we are the deck that benefits the most from the fetchland reprint. Although I rarely had mana issues with the exception of turn 3 anger of the gods, having the ability to thin our deck more and fix our colors on demand is simply huge for any control deck, especially on a deck that runs a card so heavy on colors.
This leads me to my next point about cruel ultimatum and crueless control. Running cruel ultimatum indeed doesn't allow you to run a big amount of land destruction (we can't run 3 like UWR). Cruel ultimatum however is the best card we have in our deck, it is the one card combo we will need to secure a win, to shift a losing game back to our favor, to control the board, everything. If we don't play cruel ultimatum 1) why then not play UWR, what else do we have currently that is better than UWR and 2) what would we play to fill the same role?
Cruel ultimatum, alongside with our manlands is our way to win the game, our only way. Keep in mind that all our manlands are way more fragile than celestial colonnade. Cruel Ultimatum secures an opponent with empty hand so our lands are in no danger. Also, an empty handed opponent is more often a defeated opponent against us. Furthermore, on the lifegain: CU (from now on the cruel ultimatum) is our only way to gain back our HP which is much needed. Even if we manage to stabilize a game, we are, more often than not, in one digit life total which means we are fragile to burns, to a single threat which might slip through etc. Unless they print an efficient way to get life which is in our colors we will be in the need of CU. There are certain other cards which have been considered as a way to get life but none has the efficiency and the multipurpose of CU in order to take its place.
Having said that I think Dig Through Time is a decent card for us. I won't say great but since we do want to find CU this is the most efficient way to do it. Keep 2 cards, send the rest bottom, we can reshuffle with our brand new fetchlands and everything goes according to the plan. In my lists I usually run 2 snapcasters which means that I don't really mind losing some value, but also, at the time we cast Dig Through time, we probably have the mana to also cast CU, which I guess is one of the cards we are digging for, so exiling a couple of fetches from the GY and paying like 3-4 mana is good enough. I will definitely play test it.
On alternative win conditions. As I stated above, imho, Cruel Ultimatum is irreplaceable and it is a great finisher. I don't think I have played a game where I resolved CU and I lost. Keranos is indeed a great card for us which requires testing, but I can't see him as a finisher because he can't kill on demand. Nicol Bolas is a worse CU. He needs 8 mana and a couple of turns. Even if you play 3 tec edges by the time you would be able to resolve Bolases ultimate you would also be able to cast CU and have counter back up. Batterskull is good but not in all MUs so I would prefer it in the SB and Wurmcoil engine as one of I don't think would have great impact although I haven't tested it. Aetherling is probably not good enough for modern, although I would be willing to try it out if I see a strong argument in its favor. Rakdos's Return is also a worse CU.
Overall, and having played also a lot of UWR control (probably as much as Cruel control) I think that fetchlands will be of great use and will definitely rise the deck a bit but not astoundingly. Don't get me wrong I think the deck is great, it could probably be as good, if not better than, UWR control. It is however much harder to pilot than UWR, it is lacking some good cards in the SB which white provides (we need to figure out the SB way more than the MB) and if the pros don't also get their hands to it, it will not see popularity.
I will try to remain calm with the good news of fetches reprints and lets start assessing what we are going to get
1) We are getting the ability to play 1-2 Tec Edges. HOWEVER, playing tec edge still will turn of a stable T7 cruel ultimatum which makes things still not ideal.
2) Stable Anger of the Gods on T3 which becomes more and more relevant or any early 2 red mana spell for that matter (like sowing salt or molten rain)
3) Countersquall will also be now a valid choice over negate cause you can always have the mana T2. The same goes for Counterflux and ofcourse the always relevant T4 3 blue mana for Cryptic command. Maybe we can now safely run 4 of them.
What other cards should we go through? We got some time to prepare
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
I also never liked remands on cruel control decks. I would suggest running 1 Anger of the Gods main and 2 Forbidden Alchemy main (as Sapientissiums suggests) instead of the remands.
Maybe you also want to consider going 9 fetches with 4 Scalding Tarns or drop the Mire for a Tarn. I would possibly run 9 fetches and 4 Tar pits instead of the Drowned Catacombs.
Keranos I think is still too slow. Especially if your meta has burn, fish and delver. An extra electrlyze, spell snare, anger of the gods, all fit the slot I think.
I would like 2x edict effects on the SB because boggles MU is simply terrible. I would replace the Fallouts if you chose to go Anger of the Gods main. Also i would up the number of Slaughter Games to 3 to secure scapeshift MU. 1x thoughtseize is not all that relevant as well. Either up it or replace it with Threads of disloyalty (which is amazing) or something else.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
1) I would swap one terminate for one Slaughter Pact. Being able to tap out your turn with the ability to kill something on their turn is just amazing. I used to run a list with more planeswalkers and 1 more damnation but I think it would work on your list as well. The card is simply too good to ignore in this deck.
2) I would want 1 Anger of the Gods mainboard. Maybe cutting down the dismember which might eat precious lifepoints. Anger of the Gods is relevant right now against a large percentage of the field, especially with the rise of UR delver. And if you decide to include the Slaughter Pact Dismember isn't really needed.
3) I would change 1 Ghost Quarter for 1 Island because 3 colorless lands are too much for a deck that runs 2 Cruel Ultimatum and the Urborg for a Reflecting Pool (although this is a bit of a preference).
4) on the sideboard, this used to be my sideboard in the last version of the deck I played
2x Counterflux
2x Deathmark
2x Duress
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Izzet Staticaster
2x Rakdos Charm
2x Spellskite
1x Threads of Disloyalty
Olivia is decent though and since you run Batterskull main Olivia is good in the side. Rakdos charm is kind of great. Threads is one of my favorite SB cards and I don't see why a blue control deck wouldn't want it. I like the inclusion of Teferi, it can be game changing. I don't really like Molten Rain, I would strongly prefer Sowing Salt. Deathmark is not that relevant any more but spellskite still is I think.
5) I used to run 2x Think Twice. I think the DTT is just the single best card we wanted to run over them. I wouldn't go as far as playing more than 2 though. I can also see cutting on Snapcasters in favor of more spells like 2nd damnation and more fuel for DTT. I used to run 2x Snapcaster before delve, and I could justify it now even more.
6) The vendiliong clique I don't think is really relevant. It is a great one of in general but what is its exact point in this deck?
7) 2 Cruel Ultimatums I feel is the right number. 1 is too much of glass cannon and 3 is waaaay too many.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Also i don't get the inclusion of izzet charm. The card does a lot of things badly. If you are going to run a teachings list (which i wouldn't recommend) then you might as well run more powerful cards than izzer charm.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
And no, diabolic tutor is not better. It is sorcery speed, fixed mana cost and only bring 1 card.
I don't know why Cruel Ultimatum is still underquestion here. Our man-lands are not as powerful as Celestial Colonnade and Cruel Ultimatum is way better than sphinx's revelation which is a standard in UWR control decks (as one or two of).
On the remand/think twice discussion, I think that Shadow of Doubt fills a different spot than the other two cards. Between remand and think twice, depending on the style you want to play you should choose. If you want to tempo/discard then go with remand. If you want to play hard control, imho think twice is better.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Ok, so I've been playing this deck (among others) for over a year now and I would like to give my thoughts on the new set and on what we get.
Obviously there is no huge card coming our way which would shift everything in our favor over other control decks. I do believe however that we are the deck that benefits the most from the fetchland reprint. Although I rarely had mana issues with the exception of turn 3 anger of the gods, having the ability to thin our deck more and fix our colors on demand is simply huge for any control deck, especially on a deck that runs a card so heavy on colors.
This leads me to my next point about cruel ultimatum and crueless control. Running cruel ultimatum indeed doesn't allow you to run a big amount of land destruction (we can't run 3 like UWR). Cruel ultimatum however is the best card we have in our deck, it is the one card combo we will need to secure a win, to shift a losing game back to our favor, to control the board, everything. If we don't play cruel ultimatum 1) why then not play UWR, what else do we have currently that is better than UWR and 2) what would we play to fill the same role?
Cruel ultimatum, alongside with our manlands is our way to win the game, our only way. Keep in mind that all our manlands are way more fragile than celestial colonnade. Cruel Ultimatum secures an opponent with empty hand so our lands are in no danger. Also, an empty handed opponent is more often a defeated opponent against us. Furthermore, on the lifegain: CU (from now on the cruel ultimatum) is our only way to gain back our HP which is much needed. Even if we manage to stabilize a game, we are, more often than not, in one digit life total which means we are fragile to burns, to a single threat which might slip through etc. Unless they print an efficient way to get life which is in our colors we will be in the need of CU. There are certain other cards which have been considered as a way to get life but none has the efficiency and the multipurpose of CU in order to take its place.
Having said that I think Dig Through Time is a decent card for us. I won't say great but since we do want to find CU this is the most efficient way to do it. Keep 2 cards, send the rest bottom, we can reshuffle with our brand new fetchlands and everything goes according to the plan. In my lists I usually run 2 snapcasters which means that I don't really mind losing some value, but also, at the time we cast Dig Through time, we probably have the mana to also cast CU, which I guess is one of the cards we are digging for, so exiling a couple of fetches from the GY and paying like 3-4 mana is good enough. I will definitely play test it.
On alternative win conditions. As I stated above, imho, Cruel Ultimatum is irreplaceable and it is a great finisher. I don't think I have played a game where I resolved CU and I lost. Keranos is indeed a great card for us which requires testing, but I can't see him as a finisher because he can't kill on demand. Nicol Bolas is a worse CU. He needs 8 mana and a couple of turns. Even if you play 3 tec edges by the time you would be able to resolve Bolases ultimate you would also be able to cast CU and have counter back up. Batterskull is good but not in all MUs so I would prefer it in the SB and Wurmcoil engine as one of I don't think would have great impact although I haven't tested it. Aetherling is probably not good enough for modern, although I would be willing to try it out if I see a strong argument in its favor. Rakdos's Return is also a worse CU.
Overall, and having played also a lot of UWR control (probably as much as Cruel control) I think that fetchlands will be of great use and will definitely rise the deck a bit but not astoundingly. Don't get me wrong I think the deck is great, it could probably be as good, if not better than, UWR control. It is however much harder to pilot than UWR, it is lacking some good cards in the SB which white provides (we need to figure out the SB way more than the MB) and if the pros don't also get their hands to it, it will not see popularity.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
1) We are getting the ability to play 1-2 Tec Edges. HOWEVER, playing tec edge still will turn of a stable T7 cruel ultimatum which makes things still not ideal.
2) Stable Anger of the Gods on T3 which becomes more and more relevant or any early 2 red mana spell for that matter (like sowing salt or molten rain)
3) Countersquall will also be now a valid choice over negate cause you can always have the mana T2. The same goes for Counterflux and ofcourse the always relevant T4 3 blue mana for Cryptic command. Maybe we can now safely run 4 of them.
What other cards should we go through? We got some time to prepare
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past