That's... a pretty nice comparison. Wow. I'm thinking that maybe I should find some room for it in other blue-based decks I have, particularly my Memnarch deck. Particularly with how ubiquitous mana dorks have become in the cEDH scene.
I brought up the idea of Forge of Heroes to the Discord community there and they argued against its inclusion. So its removal from the main decklist was a concession to the excellent Hive Mind on Discord, especially since I haven't had a chance to playtest with Teferi recently.
Their basic argument was that the chances of the Forge being a dead draw were greater than the niche case of being able to generate infinite colorless mana via the Forge. Further, the corner case where the Forge COULD generate infinite colorless mana was relatively uncommon to lose an Island for.
gotta say, shifted away from the old tendin tribal list and am currently running the tapped out main primer list. Its pretty ridiculously fast, though there have been a few times where i have mourned the lack of static and winter orb in my main deck. What is your thoughts on the removal of these two stax effects?
It really depends on what your meta looks like. Personally, I have found that Winter Orb has now been largely outclassed as a Stax piece simply because so many cEDH decks focus on mana dorks and mana rocks as their primary sources of mana advantage. While it's nice to be able to slow down mana production from lands, it's generally become less powerful than Cursed Totem. Static Orb is a Stax card that could easily come back in because it DOES hinder the mana development that our opponents can accrue from their mana rocks, mana dorks, and lands. Static Orb is simply more effective now because it hits multiple permanent types in comparison to Winter Orb.
Thanks for sharing that. I think it would be useful to have a thread for that kind of information as part of the Primer directory, to be updated twice a year or so. That would be good information to have so that the cEDH community has an idea of how the general meta looks for part of the year. Twice a year would ensure that it accurately reflects any new cards that are introduced while allowing them time to marinate in the cEDH world to actually be substantiated as good cards.
Of those Mid-Range decks, it seems like Teferi is the big boy at the table, which is pretty pleasing to see!
Yup, the Discord consensus is similar. The Primer has been updated to reflect that!
In other speculation, it seems like they're hinting at an artifact centric deck in the near future with all the enchantment and artifact removal that's being printed in the new Ravnica sets. I sure hope so, because Paradox Engine was the best artifact to come out for combo decks in years.
Also, I haven't been able to play as frequently as others have. What are the most common archetypes represented in the cEDH meta now? I assume that it's 4 Color Hulk decks followed by Zur Storm. Is that right?
Thanks! Mana Leak is a card that's often come in and out of the deck for other counterspells. Since I play against my wife's Kaalia deck most frequently (particularly in 1v1 matches) I like my counterspells to be as live as possible in that matchup. Flusterstorm was consistently useless in that matchup whereas the leak countered that T3 Kaalia without fail.
That being said, I've often eyed Spell Pierce as a slot option for Flusterstorm. How has the Pierce performed in your experience? I'll also pose the question to the Discord and see what they say as well.
EDIT: I've updated the OP to reflect some Discord discussion. Based on the cumulative experience of the Discord, Flusterstorm is too important to leave out and Forge of Heroes and Urza's Factory are not terribly good cards. Cut the Spell Pierce and the lands in favor of Islands and Flusterstorm
The distinction that I immediately note is that my decklist has a slightly higher removal count, with the addition of Shackles and Capsize, in comparison to the stock list which has 2 more cantrips than I (Sleight of Hand and Gitaxian Probe. In my analysis, I think this comes to playstyle and how I perceive card advantage in this cEDH format. Generally speaking, removal counts are low and many of the most valuable creatures in cEDH have power 2 or less. I have found, through my own experiences, that Shackles has generally overperformed for me in halting an opponent's gameplan. The immediate comparison that I would make for this is the power of Gilded Drake. Gaining control of an opponent's creature is VERY powerful, especially when done at a low CMC. I believe that Shackles trades the CMC efficiency of Drake and other removal spells for a card that synergizes more completely with the decklist as a whole while also being repeatable. I have often tutored for Shackles via [CARD}Whir of Invention[/CARD] in order to gain control of an Arcum, Yisan, Kaalia, or Zur. The opponent then either spends a tutor to go and find a removal spell or, more often than not, is stranded from executing their primary gameplan. While I certainly concede the efficacy of cantrips in digging into a tutor in order to execute our own combo line, I find that I personally prefer the tempo loss and subtle card advantage that removal spells provide. I readily admit, though, that there have been times where Capsize has looked particularly useless depending on the board state.
Verity Circle is a card I simply haven't tested yet, hence its lack of inclusion in the maindeck. I anticipate that it will replace Careful Consideration as it did in the stock list.
Urza's FActory is a holdover from the original decklist that hasn't been too terrible. I haven't had it in play and diminish the amount of mana that High Tide needs to make in order to combo off, and the ability to make chump blockers has been useful at times. In full disclosure, though, this is a land that should be removed for an Island.
Forge of Heroes has actually been relatively interesting as a land. Because it adds loyalty counters directly to a Planeswalker, there is a small corner case where you can create infinite mana with Teferi's minus ability, mana rocks, and Forge of Heroes. It's come up once during a game, but not since then.
Blue Sun's Zenith is simply a good card in my opinion and I prefer to have as many draw X effects in the deck as possible. I prefer the raw card advantage the Zenith provides in comparison to the repeatable Pulse of the Grid. I'd rather see a burst of 3-4 cards for more mana than only net 2 cards from Pulse at the same mana cost consideration.
Everflowing Chalice has been consistent at what it needs to do for me. It can scale into a Sol permanent when it needs to or be a combo piece with Tezzeret the Seeker. Its flexibility in how much mana it produces is valuable to me, especially since I can tutor for it via Trinket Mage to get the last mana source I need to reliably combo off.
I think that Mana Leak is an underrated counterspell, personally. While Flusterstorm may be better if there's a Storm presence in your playgroup, I find that Flash Hulk decks or Arcum decks are more popular currently. And the Leak is effectively a hard counter at 1U against hose decks whereas there might be some cases where the Flusterstorm simply misses.
With the newly minted cEDH forums, I decided that it would be appropriate to post a couple of Primers so that future cEDH'ers can get an idea of what a Primer will look like and how they can interact on MTGSal. I hope that this Primer is a good example of the type of content we're looking for!
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Their basic argument was that the chances of the Forge being a dead draw were greater than the niche case of being able to generate infinite colorless mana via the Forge. Further, the corner case where the Forge COULD generate infinite colorless mana was relatively uncommon to lose an Island for.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
It really depends on what your meta looks like. Personally, I have found that Winter Orb has now been largely outclassed as a Stax piece simply because so many cEDH decks focus on mana dorks and mana rocks as their primary sources of mana advantage. While it's nice to be able to slow down mana production from lands, it's generally become less powerful than Cursed Totem. Static Orb is a Stax card that could easily come back in because it DOES hinder the mana development that our opponents can accrue from their mana rocks, mana dorks, and lands. Static Orb is simply more effective now because it hits multiple permanent types in comparison to Winter Orb.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
- Careful Consideration
+ Verity Circle
Other than that, not much is going with Teferi.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Of those Mid-Range decks, it seems like Teferi is the big boy at the table, which is pretty pleasing to see!
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
In other speculation, it seems like they're hinting at an artifact centric deck in the near future with all the enchantment and artifact removal that's being printed in the new Ravnica sets. I sure hope so, because Paradox Engine was the best artifact to come out for combo decks in years.
Also, I haven't been able to play as frequently as others have. What are the most common archetypes represented in the cEDH meta now? I assume that it's 4 Color Hulk decks followed by Zur Storm. Is that right?
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
That being said, I've often eyed Spell Pierce as a slot option for Flusterstorm. How has the Pierce performed in your experience? I'll also pose the question to the Discord and see what they say as well.
EDIT: I've updated the OP to reflect some Discord discussion. Based on the cumulative experience of the Discord, Flusterstorm is too important to leave out and Forge of Heroes and Urza's Factory are not terribly good cards. Cut the Spell Pierce and the lands in favor of Islands and Flusterstorm
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
On a card for card basis of differences between Sigi/Neosloth's list on TappedOut in comparison to mine, these are the differences that I see:
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Mana Leak
1 Capsize
1 Careful Consideration
1 Forge of Heroes
1 Urza's Factory
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Sleight of Hand
1 Verity Circle
1 Pulse of the Grid
1 Dispel
1 Flusterstorm
1 Island
Those are the initial differences that I can see.
The distinction that I immediately note is that my decklist has a slightly higher removal count, with the addition of Shackles and Capsize, in comparison to the stock list which has 2 more cantrips than I (Sleight of Hand and Gitaxian Probe. In my analysis, I think this comes to playstyle and how I perceive card advantage in this cEDH format. Generally speaking, removal counts are low and many of the most valuable creatures in cEDH have power 2 or less. I have found, through my own experiences, that Shackles has generally overperformed for me in halting an opponent's gameplan. The immediate comparison that I would make for this is the power of Gilded Drake. Gaining control of an opponent's creature is VERY powerful, especially when done at a low CMC. I believe that Shackles trades the CMC efficiency of Drake and other removal spells for a card that synergizes more completely with the decklist as a whole while also being repeatable. I have often tutored for Shackles via [CARD}Whir of Invention[/CARD] in order to gain control of an Arcum, Yisan, Kaalia, or Zur. The opponent then either spends a tutor to go and find a removal spell or, more often than not, is stranded from executing their primary gameplan. While I certainly concede the efficacy of cantrips in digging into a tutor in order to execute our own combo line, I find that I personally prefer the tempo loss and subtle card advantage that removal spells provide. I readily admit, though, that there have been times where Capsize has looked particularly useless depending on the board state.
Verity Circle is a card I simply haven't tested yet, hence its lack of inclusion in the maindeck. I anticipate that it will replace Careful Consideration as it did in the stock list.
Urza's FActory is a holdover from the original decklist that hasn't been too terrible. I haven't had it in play and diminish the amount of mana that High Tide needs to make in order to combo off, and the ability to make chump blockers has been useful at times. In full disclosure, though, this is a land that should be removed for an Island.
Forge of Heroes has actually been relatively interesting as a land. Because it adds loyalty counters directly to a Planeswalker, there is a small corner case where you can create infinite mana with Teferi's minus ability, mana rocks, and Forge of Heroes. It's come up once during a game, but not since then.
Blue Sun's Zenith is simply a good card in my opinion and I prefer to have as many draw X effects in the deck as possible. I prefer the raw card advantage the Zenith provides in comparison to the repeatable Pulse of the Grid. I'd rather see a burst of 3-4 cards for more mana than only net 2 cards from Pulse at the same mana cost consideration.
Everflowing Chalice has been consistent at what it needs to do for me. It can scale into a Sol permanent when it needs to or be a combo piece with Tezzeret the Seeker. Its flexibility in how much mana it produces is valuable to me, especially since I can tutor for it via Trinket Mage to get the last mana source I need to reliably combo off.
I think that Mana Leak is an underrated counterspell, personally. While Flusterstorm may be better if there's a Storm presence in your playgroup, I find that Flash Hulk decks or Arcum decks are more popular currently. And the Leak is effectively a hard counter at 1U against hose decks whereas there might be some cases where the Flusterstorm simply misses.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
1x Teferi, Temporal Archmage
Artifact (20)
0x Chrome Mox
0x Mana Crypt
0x Mox Diamond
0x Mox Opal
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Mana Vault
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sol Ring
1x Voltaic Key
2x Cursed Totem
2x Fellwar Stone
2x Grim Monolith
2x Mind Stone
3x Basalt Monolith
3x Rings of Brighthearth
3x Vedalken Shackles
4x The Chain Veil
4x Thran Dynamo
5x Gilded Lotus
5x Memory Jar
Creatures (2)
3x Spellseeker
3x Trinket Mage
Planeswalkers (3)
3x Narset, Parter of Veils
5x Tezzeret the Seeker
8x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
0x Pact of Negation
1x Brainstorm
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Flusterstorm
1x High Tide
1x Mental Misstep
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Swan Song
2x Blink of an Eye
2x Counterspell
2x Cyclonic Rift
2x Delay
2x Impulse
2x Mana Drain
2x Muddle the Mixture
2x Narset's Reversal
2x Negate
2x Pull from Tomorrow
3x Blue Sun's Zenith
3x Capsize
3x Intuition
3x Stroke of Genius
3x Whir of Invention
4x Fact or Fiction
5x Force of Will
8x Dig Through Time
1x Ponder
1x Preordain
2x Merchant Scroll
2x Reshape
2x Transmute Artifact
3x Fabricate
3x Timetwister
3x Windfall
6x Time Spiral
Enchantments (6)
1x Mystic Remora
2x Copy Artifact
2x Power Artifact
2x Stasis
3x Back to Basics
3x Rhystic Study
3x Verity Circle
Land (31)
1x Academy Ruins
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Blast Zone
1x Buried Ruin
1x Flooded Strand
1x Inventors' Fair
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Polluted Delta
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
22x Island
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager