FWIW, Blood Moon decks seem to be pretty popular right now; I played eight matches on cockatrice this morning and four of them featured that card from my opponent, all maindeck. I believe Moon is showing up in league results as well. Which is smart, because the card is real good right now. Make sure you are ready for it, is my advice. If you see T1 Temple of Triumph it could as easily be Sun & Moon as Ad Nauseam. Beware of opponents fetching basics in general too, of course.
Gonna hold off on Lili V for now, for the reasons stated above. Also, I definitely do not feel like I want to lose the Relics, as they are a major part of this deck's gameplay. Push remains as a three-of main, with three Paths main, and one more in the side. I took out the maindeck Surgical Extraction, though, as I have been seriously reconsidering the wisdom of running 61 cards. Plus, Extraction is really pretty bad overall; it has a "high ceiling" for sure, but most matchups don't actually put us in the right room for that, so to speak.
Lastly, so far, Endless One has been pretty decent. There really isn't that much Fatal Push running around out there, actually, so it's 0 CMC cost is less of a downside. However, it does get wiped by sweepers like Engineered Explosives and Ratchet Bomb that opponents are likely to bring in for our tokens anyway, so there is that downside.
Yeah, I really want a new lili but I am waiting until it rotates. Endless one seems okay but with all of the fatal pushes running around I would look for a creature that provides value when it dies. Such as hangarback walker, which somebody brought up a few pages ago. Lingering souls is one of the best cards for us, why no try a card that produces 1/1 fliers when it dies?
Because we have Lingering Souls, is why.
Endless One can do something our deck can't do (make a 6/6 or bigger), while Walker does something our deck already does (make 1/1 fliers, replace itself when it dies).
Endless One has half the casting cost, and benefits from Temple--so it will always be much bigger, at really any stage of the game. And it benefits from from Cavern, so it will land on occasions when Walker would not.
Walker can't pump itself until you can untap with it, nor if you attack with it, and even then it can do so only if you have the untapped mana.
It seems clear to me that Endless One will be much faster pressure overall, while Walker will be much grinder. I want a card that shores up our weak spots, not one that reinforces our strengths. Which one would you rather have in a Gx Tron match (AKA one of our toughest), where you're siding in Stony Silence? Walker might be better, but I am not convinced.
Either way I'd run only one, in a Reshaper slot. And I have no idea where I might squeeze in a Liliana, the Last Hope. Sorin is necessary for lifegain, as far as I'm concerned. (I tried Whip of Erebos for a while, but Sorin is so much stronger.) Soren's a lot easier to cast on-curve than Lili is, and he conflicts with fewer cards for his slot on the curve. And, I'm already at 61 cards (for now) as I debate the role of Relic, Mind Stone, Fatal Push, and Surgical Extraction in the main. Making room for one more seems pretty tough.
It's been a while since I played this deck. Right now I'm looking for something to deal with my crazy meta, it's all over the place. Lately I've been losing to Grixis Delver, various control decks with Ancestral Vision, Breach Titan, Abzan Coco, but I also have merfolk, tron (GR and U varieties), infect on a regular basis, and the occasional affinity, burn, zoo, Jund, and Ad Nauseum. I've been playing a really off the wall Saultai artifact gifts control, but it's only been doing good against half the stuff I run into. With such a diverse meta, I feel I need a versatile deck choice. Would this be a good deck to run? Here's the last list I played, which dates back to around Septemberish of last year.
Looking at the list, I recall liking the Tidehallows against combo and heavy creature decks, and decks that didn't have tons of removal. They were generally sided out against control decks or jund/abzan that can just remove it easily. Can't remember why there's only 2 Smashers, other than space issues. I didn't care much for Mind Stone either, and just opted for a 25 land, 1 Expedition Map set up instead.
It's my belief that Sculler and C-cost Eldrazi are a tough pairing because of the mana demands. I suspect you don't have quite enough BW sources to reliably cast Sculler on-curve, especially with 3 lands that ETB tapped. I find Smasher to be one of the absolute all-stars in the deck, and personally I can't see myself going below a playset for any foreseeable reason.
I would definitely suggest making some room for Fatal Push and trying to find room for all four Smashers. Against the meta you describe, I would expect my build to be good (in some cases very good) against all of it except for Tron, Breach Titan, and Merfolk, which are all hard matches.
I haven't been posting play reports, but I have had the chance to play in a few FNM type events over the past week. I went 2-2 and 3-2 at my LGS and went 3-1 last night at a new shop out of state (a shop that was described to me as "spikey") using the list I proposed a couple weeks ago. I also happened to run into one of the writers for modernnexus.com (who is also a mod here) and had a good conversation with him about that site and about Eldrazi decks, which was fun.
TL;DR version of the deck changes: right now I have 3 Path, 3 Push, 3 Relic, 3 Strangler, 4 Reshaper, and 1 Extraction in the main, with a total of 61 cards. Thanks to Tituba9 and DCteamup for the ideas about cutting Relic and adding Extraction. I don't necessarily intend to remain at 61 cards, but I wanted to try out both Push as a 3-of, and Extraction as a corner case out to Tron and Valakut decks. Right now it is too soon to tell how I feel overall about the changes, but I do have some thoughts about some of them.
But first, a brief play report from last night:
vs. mono-W Humans: 2-0 (1-0)
I was on the draw. He started out much faster than me, but I was able to turn the corner easily by the mid game, with Souls chumping until I could Smash in for the win. Push was amazing here against his cheap dudes. I was able to trade a Reshaper for one of his attackers and flip it into a Strangler to get a second attacker in G2--that always feels good, and I have done the same thing to both a 5/6 Goyf and a 6/6 Titan before. Love Reshaper, especially when I can run it out T2.
vs. Affinity: 0-2 (1-1)
Kept a hand with Temple and GQ plus 2x Reshaper, 2x Seer, and a Smasher, blind on the draw--only to see him run out a T1 Opal/Drum/Skirge and then a Plating on T2. That game was over quickly as he flew over my head and I bricked on further lands. In G2 I kept a 6 with Flats and Temple plus 2x Push, Strangler, and Unmaking. I chose to fetch for a Shrine so I could play any of my cards that I might draw later, though I was worried about Blood Moon. I killed a couple of Overseers with the Pushes, but it turned out he had the Moon, and played it out on T4 to shut me off all my colors after I missed land draws for two turns. Flipping Reshaper into my sole Wastes was not enough to get around his big Ravager and Master of Etherium, and he took the win having drawn his hate while I whiffed on mine.
vs. Doubling Season/Superfriends: 2-1 (2-1)
On the draw again. He was able to get Season down in G1 and then go off with planeswalkers to overwhelm me. In G2 a lot of hand disruption kept him on the back foot and off his walkers, and Vault kept me out of range of dying to his Westvale Abbey tokens. In G3 he bricked by drawing only 1-CMC mana enablers while I Smashed him mercilessly.
vs. Jeskai Nahiri: 2-0 (3-1) Cavern of Souls won me G1, keeping my threats coming. In G2 he kept a marginal 6 that I shredded with Thoughtseize and Seer. I was able to process his Ancestral Vision with one counter on it, targeting my Seer in my second main phase while he was hellbent, which tilted him pretty strongly. After that he bricked on sweepers and I ran him over.
Thoughts:
Fatal Push is the real deal for sure. Love this new addition to the deck, and I think it will help quite a bit with the early-pressure matches that can be tough to turn around on in time. Playing three feels right to me so far. I definitely think that it means Path should go below four in the maindeck since I almost never want to play Path before T3 if I can help it (with a few exceptions).
I think Relic is still a key part of the build, since it is still the case that Modern is a highly graveyard-dependent format in general. I don't necessarily like running only three, but sacrifices must be made.
I also think Strangler is still an amazing 2-for-1 value play when it can process, and I love being able to attack an opponent's exile zone. That is rare, but always very unpleasant for them.
Surgical Extraction hasn't been relevant yet, but I also haven't faced Tron or Valakut yet, since adding one main and one side.
Matter Reshaper continues to be a feel-good card for me every time I cast it, and it makes openers with Temples much better because T2 Reshaper is always very good, while T2 Strangler is a pretty bad play unless it has processing fodder and a good target, which it often doesn't.
Both Vault and Cavern of Souls continue to provide lots of value. They are relevant only rarely, but are game-changers when in such cases.
Feeling good about the list, hoping to get a few matches against big mana soon to see how things work out in these challenging contests. Thanks to the forum as always for the conversation and good ideas.
I think the way you hope to do, and can not infrequently do, is play Relic and Mind Stone together on T2 after a tapland investment T1. That T2 line is slow, especially on the draw, but gives you T3 Souls/Reshaper/Strangler + threaten Relic crack, or T3 Seer. (And this is on the draws that don't have a Temple!) But I have to say that you have me wondering about swapping a Mind Stone for another T1 disruption play... if I could get my hands on a single Spanish copy of Inquisition of Kozilek I'd run it in a heartbeat just for style points.
I've been facing a lot of aggros (merfolk, bushwacker zoo) and RW Prisons, so I started running 4 Herders and no Smashers.
Still not sure if it's a good choice. Herder has the pros to dodge BM, provide chump and <> mana. Besides it's sometimes hard condition to value, he has saved me enough games to give him a point. Smasher is amazing on Bant Eldrazi because you can consistently play him on T3, and this don't happen on this deck.
Well, Herder doesn't come out any earlier than Smasher does, in terms of getting either on a T3 play. And I don't think Herder is good against Merfolk, because what will they have in the graveyard for Relic? Probably nothing, that's what. Running Herder instead of Smasher makes the deck more dependent on Processing and therefore on Relics, but Relics are only sometimes good. Being able to side them out without nerfing our own wincons is important.
With practice, you will not worry about playing around Blood Moon, if you run Marsh Flats and Mind Stones, and a Wastes somewhere in the 75.
iostream, I like that you are thinking critically and testing with the deck. Some good ideas there.
1) I think Lili Mark V could be real good, especially if opposing Lingering Souls decks make an upswing. I also think she supports the crucial card-advantage aspect that is so important for the deck, by getting things back from the yard and by killing small dudes on the other side. My only concern is that lifegain is very important, and Sorin has saved me many time when in the single digits on life. I think that running Lili over Sorin probably means adding more lifegain to the side to compensate.
2) Endless One is an amazing late game play, far better than Reshaper. I might try one and see how I like it. I am still a huge fan of Matter Reshaper's replacement effect though.
3) Right now I am on 3 Path/3 Push, with Path #4 in the side. Too soon for me to tell how I feel about it, though I feel certain that Push makes 4 Paths bad.
4) I love the early game discard plan. I have reluctantly shaved those slots over a period of many months, and as you note, I only felt able to do it because of TKS--and because we have had a good T1 play in Relic, and now in Push. Mind Stone is more proactive in ramping threats out, and is better in the late game since it is not a dead draw in a topdeck war, but I do miss my reliable T1 disruption. I think this list is extremely tight--as I mentioned earlier I have not been able to get below 61 in my current build testing Push and a single Extraction in the main.
Personally, I think Matter Reshaper is the best T2 play this deck can be making. (Except for T1 Temple --> T2 Temple/TKS of course!) It is far better than Scourge, in my opinion. And running Reshaper over Scourge helps carve out space to side out the Relics in all the matches where they are not relevant against the opponent. Maybe try Eldrazi Displacer out, but it doesn't fill the early-game void like Reshaper does, because it is much more likely to die without value to a cheap mana investment like Bolt or Push from our opponent. Displacer is usually much stronger in the late game.
Against Jund, I have found the most success in embracing the topdeck war. If they don't stick a Bob then I can usually win this war. But if they do stick him it can be pretty tough.
You want targeted removal for creatures, and ways to deal with Lili. Look for Ghost Quarter, Souls, and Relic, of course. Fatal Push is real good against Jund's creature base. Pithing Needle and Ratchet Bomb should come in from the side, and so should Unmaking or Celestial Purge. Thoughtseize/IoK and Collective Brutality go out.
The top creature for removal, in my experience, is Kalitas--sandbag removal for that guy, if possible. Luckily Purge hits this card, because it is extremely dangerous for us. Kalitas turns off Reshaper's replacement effect, and if he starts making zombies then we're in trouble, because he's gonna get bigger than Smasher in a hurry while pushing the opponent's life total fast and hard in the wrong direction.
Here's my current SB plan vs. Jund (based on my current reconfiguration to accommodate Push):
OUT: 3x Thoughtseize, 1x Extraction, 1x Brutality, 1x Strangler, 1x Cavern of Souls (irrelevant). Possibly I might side out 2x Mind Stone on the play if I was worried about artifact hate. But the card draw and Revolt trigger--not to mention the ramp--can be pretty relevant in this match.
IN: 1x Path, 2x Needle, 2x Bomb, 1x Unmaking, 1x Wastes (possible Blood Moon from some lists). If Mind Stone comes out, then some blend of Damnation (for Thrun and lopsided board states), Blessed Alliance, and Go for the Throat/Dismember could be good.
Both Needle and Bomb are very strong in this match. They have a lot of two drops, and you can keep Bomb on 2 to slow them down while simultaneously threatening to tick up in their end step after they play Lili. Needle hits a huge number of targets in their deck, including the very dangerous Fulminator Mage out of the side.
Hi iostream, I edited my post with my shot at quantifying the importance of having untapped B on T1.
Your point about Walker leaving behind the same power is very good; my point was that Push doesn't need Revolt to kill it. I dig that you are on board with the resilience/card-advantage aspect of the deck, which I think is crucial. I suspect getting Revolt reliably might be a little trickier than generally assumed so far, is why I brought it up. I think you're right about Stony and Needle.
I really like the Cavern a lot, despite the Souls plan, but YMMV of course. If you want more early BW untapped duals I think Courtyard is the clear favorite, but Sea Gate Wreckage is also a strong contender here to replace a colorless source.
My favorite thing about Unmaking is that it hits everything but lands and makes me feel I don't need to double-up with Disenchant and Purge, for instance. It feels like it frees up slots for me. The exile effect is also relevant in a few corner cases such as when playing against Academy Ruins and Keranos, God of Storms. No doubt it is much more painful to cast, of course.
Hangarback Walker seems like it could be pretty good on T2. It would definitely be very good when held back with 1 up--like ideally from an untapped Ghost Quarter--when also threatening a Relic crack. That would be three lines of instant-speed interaction off one mana. It's better than Reshaper under Blood Moon. It would be a great late-game-topdeck-war card, far better than Reshaper. But Walker has a couple caveats, it seems to me. It dies to un-Revolted Push, and doesn't benefit from Cavern of Souls or Temple. It's much slower in the early game, and unlike Reshaper, it makes a great Bolt target when played early-on. Its "dies" ability is probably worse than Reshaper's unless it has at least two counters on it, for instance; and if you activate its self-pump, Bolt in response nets you zero additional tokens. Like Relic, it prioritizes keeping up available mana in a deck that can be mana-hungry as it is, which can lead to playing off-curve. It conflicts with Mind Stone for the T2 play, and unlike Stone it doesn't ramp to Seer, Sorin, and Smasher. (Though, also unlike Stone, it is actually a proactive threat.) It makes Stony Silence and Pithing Needle better against us--not sure if that last actually matters so much, though. Overall, to me Walker looks lower floor, higher ceiling, compared to Reshaper.
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Concealed Courtyard is great, but so is Shambling Vent. Tough call on the right balance. I thought I'd try to do a little math here. My reckoning suggests:
With six T1 B spells you could cast in a 60 card list, the odds of seeing at least one of them in your opener are 54.1%;
With seven such spells, the odds are 60.1%;
With eight such spells, the odds are 65.4%. (The Law of Diminishing Returns is illustrated nicely here.)
Depending on your land mix, I reckon the odds of having the mana to cast such a spell (assuming that you have drawn one in your opener here), in a 60 card list, are:
Out of the six cards left to be drawn (that are NOT the B-cost spell we already drew), there is a 75.5% chance to get a T1 source for B with 12 ETB untapped sources;
There is a 78.5% chance with 13 sources;
And there is a 81.3% chance with 14 sources. (The LDR again, here.)
(All this assumes we are keeping the opening seven, regardless of any of the other cards in hand, which is why my numbers differ from Frank Karsten's.)
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Still not too sold on running Eldrazi Displacer in this build, because it automatically becomes the best target for Bolt in our entire deck. But it's amazing when it sticks, though, it's true.
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I played Oblivion Ring for quite a while and decided that I wanted the instant speed and protection from Decay, Maelstrom Pulse, Qasali Pridemage, etc. But I have definitely found that I couldn't cast Unmaking before, due to either mana availability or life total, so it's a judgment call. Specifically regarding Tron, note that O-Ring is vulnerable to many of their cards, including Oblivion Stone, Karn Liberated, and Nature's Claim out of the side.
I've been turning over Push (and Mimic) in my head a LOT while I am not so busy with work and also not able to play cards this week. Here's what I am thinking as of now.
I think Push nudges us towards 4x Reshaper and 3x Strangler, cutting a Relic in part to make room for more than one copy of Push. Fatal Push kills things much better than Wasteland Strangler does, and Matter Reshaper is much better against opposing Pushes than Strangler is. Relics are still important, but considering that playing Push also makes running 4x Path to Exile worse, Strangler is starting to feel some pressure from multiple directions. Reshaper's replacement ability helps to offset losing a Relic draw as well.
I think Mimic could possibly lead to a very different CBW Processors variant altogether. It is true that T2 plays are somewhat lacking in the deck, though to be honest I don't find this to be a huge problem because the deck's gameplan is built around different sequencing. But if Processors did run Metallic Mimic, I think it makes Blight Herder better than Reality Smasher, maybe. (And I say that as a true believer that Smasher is currently far stronger than Herder, overall.) Mimic + Tokens + Sorin, Solemn Visitor could be busted wide open, I think. The tokens could be Spirits or Scions, doesn't really matter, and multiple Mimics in play would be nuts. I could see cutting several Stranglers for Mimic, with the intent of saving our exiled Processing targets for Herder. Thus would probably entail running 4x Path, plus 3-4x Push, to keep the exile flowing but also the creature removal count high. (Note that Scions easily turn on Revolt.)
BUT, getting Herder live turns out in practice to be MUCH harder than getting Strangler live, I can say from experience. And, assuming that Relic is still the best way to feed Processing--and I think it is--this approach would weaken us to decks that don't fill the yard. This build would go big on BW duals and lower on C lands. It would be easy to cut Vault, Cavern of Souls, and Wastes if we had a lot of other lifelink and fewer EMN Eldrazi, for instance. Then it would run Tidehollow Sculler(and maybe Eldrazi Displacer too? Having Mimic on the battlefield makes him Bolt-proof) but no Smasher or Reshaper. Displacer's flicker ability could use both Sculler and Thought-Knot Seer(which would become our only C-reliant card) to help enable Processing more reliably. With more duals and tokens, 2x Sorin starts to look really, really good. However this deck idea sounds potentially very slow to me, and I would probably only work if the entire meta slows down significantly, which I think is unlikely.
Honestly, I am not so sure about all that Mimic theory crafting, because Mimic dies to everything in a deck that otherwise makes removal bad. But anyway, that's my thoughts right now.
Have you found Rest in Peace useful agains decks other than dredge? I am using 1 on my SB and always put it in and feel that if had drew it, i'd won. Decks like UW Emeria, Jeskai Assencion, dredge, living end, jund/junk (especially since it is probable they Will side out Abrupt Decay), and so on... Or is surgical just better to use because of valakut and tron? Right niw playing a split of both 1/1.
Rest is real good, but it does nerf our own Souls. I have played it at times, but don't think it's the correct angle right now. Getting both GQ and Extraction against Tron and Valakut is not a very good plan, but it is a plan at least. A good trick against Dredge is to Extract their Bloodghasts (NOT their Amalgams) since the Amalgam usually relies on the the Ghast to get into play more than once. Always Extract in response to the trigger or, failing that, on their draw step after they draw, to see one more card in hand and possibly even hit the card they just drew, making it a dead draw step.
Thanks for the explanation. If control becomes popular should we consider eternal scourge over matter reshaper?
I have tried Scourge and could see him as a one-of, but I wasn't super impressed TBH. He was really, really slow.
One feature of my approach to the deck is that I don't feel constrained in siding out all my Relics in matches where they don't hurt my opponent. Putting in cards like Herder and Scourge makes that less feasible. I don't really want Relic to be primarily about building my own game plan, I want it to be primarily about hurting my opponent, wherever possible.
Hey guys, I'm heading to GP San Jose next week. Should I pick up this deck or Eldrazi Tron? What are the strengths and weaknesses compared to each other?
I was initially an early proponent of this deck, back when Eye was still legal (I posted in this very forum!), but its changed so much since, so I want to see which is doing better before I spend the $$ to upgrade my old deck in one direction or another.
Hi Bunny, I remember you. Welcome back.
There's little doubt that the Tron build has put up some results and is generating buzz in a way that Processors hasn't done, so there's that.
Processors will be much better against any graveyard decks and probably also against pump aggro, especially in a blind game one. Tron isn't going to beat Infect, UR Prowess, or Death's Shadow Zoo (and at least the first two decks will definitely continue to see play) without an early Chalice, for instance. Processors has much, much more removal, hand disruption, and Lingering Souls, to help out there. However, if they DO land Chalice on T1/2 they are looking pretty good in those pump aggro matches.
Processors takes more damage from lands (though less from removal) but it also has more lifegain, so the Burn match might be a wash? Don't really know. But Collective Brutality is about the best card in the world to have to combat Burn, especially when you can discard Souls to it. But playing the Souls game plan--as opposed to the big spaghetti game plan--against Burn feels pretty bad, when they have Eidolon on the table.
Processors is amazing against Affinity. I very much doubt Tron can compete with us in that match. But Chalice on zero on the play G2/3 would be real good.
Processors is pretty weak to opposing Gx Tron builds and to Valakut decks. Tron is likely better here because it can often establish a faster clock, given a good draw. But Processors has Stony Silence and early hand disruption, which are very good hate against Gx Tron.
Maindeck Relic is extremely good against any decks running either Snapcaster or Goyf, AKA the two most commonly played creatures in Modern. Relic provides a lot of siding room in matches where it's not relevant, coming out easily for other cards. But Chalice works the same way in siding out, I think.
I played a Colorless Stompy build with Simian Spirit Guide, Gemstone Caverns, and Eternal Scourge (I also tried Serum Powder but ended up cutting that) for several weeks, and it was pretty amazing at times for sure. (In one match I had T1 Thought-Knot Seer in both G1 and G2, for instance.) However, I have little doubt that Processors is much better overall against the wider meta than that Stompy deck was. In general, Processors is much more interactive, and Stompy and Tron are much more linear.
My build of Processors does not worry about Blood Moon. If you want details about how it makes sure not to let this card wreck my day I can go into more depth here. Tron is likely to be much, much weaker to Moon.
Most opponents who see you play BW duals and Eldrazi will mistakenly put you on E&T, which can lead to play mistakes. Others will think you're on tokens if you open with discard into Lingering Souls. It is frequently possible to sandbag lands like Temple or Cavern of Souls to catch opponents by surprise.
It seems to me that the Tron build is likely to be higher variance, especially because there doesn't as yet seem to be a consensus build. It can't always assemble the Urzatron reliably (not that it is trying to in the same way Gx Tron is, of course), and it needs its Chalice hate in many matches. Like Vial decks, getting that crucial piece of early interaction, which you have only as a four-of, is a big deal for the Tron builds. (To be fair, we need our Relic hate in many matches too.) Processors has more cantrips (Relic, Mind Stone) and fewer dead draws (no drawing a Map when you already have Chalice in play, or Ulamog when you don't have the mana to cast him) but Tron has the potential to be much more explosive. Overall I'd expect Processors to be better in a meta with a lot of BGx, Dredge, pump aggro, Blood Moon, and Snapcaster decks. Tron will be better for sure against a big mana meta. Since going places in a GP requires both skill and luck, the higher variance of Tron might get you places if you get lucky with matchups and draws.
Hope that helps. That's all I can think of anyway. Let me know if you want a guide to beating Blood Moon with this deck. Also, please feel free to copypasta my remarks over to the other thread to see what they think about my ideas. Good luck!
P.S.: I feel confident in saying that Smasher is much better than Herder nowadays, unless you expect a lot of Blue counterspells. The build has changed a lot from the old days.
Good cards against Uxx control in general include:
Cavern of Souls (obviously)
Lingering Souls (gives you two shots at landing a threat, makes Bolt/Path/Push bad)
Thoughtseize/IoK/Brutality (clear away counterspells before playing threats--especially good on T5 before playing Seer into T6 Smasher)
Shambling Vent (uncounterable--but mana hungry and dies to removal of all kinds)
Ghost Quarter (kills Creeping Tar Pit and Celestial Colonnade)
Relic (nerfs Snapcaster and slows down Delve creatures--leave mana open to threaten cracking it though!)
Pithing Needle, Ratchet Bomb, and Anguished Unmaking (and Smasher of course) are good against planeswalkers like Gideon and Elspeth in UW shells, or Nahiri in Jeskai
In general you need to play slower and more thoughtfully against Blue counterspells, landing one threat at a time. The exception would be when on the play it is often right to play a threat on T2 if possible--even a vanilla Strangler is better than getting your spell countered. Ensure as well as you can that Snapcaster can't hit targets in their graveyard. Sandbag a threat (Smasher is amazing) to run out if they leave the window open by tapping out. With all these tools at my disposal, I usually find that I win the best of 3 against Blue control decks. However UW control is a real pain in the ass because of all their sweepers. Fortunately I see very little UW on paper, because it is not very good lately and it takes forever to win, so timed matches tend to pressure the deck's play style.
Not a huge fan of the idea of splashing Red for any reason, let alone for a T4 play against Tron. The mana base won't support it.
Yeah, I've actually moved the second CoBr to the main for 5 total discard, and gone down to 2 reshapers in my latest post-Revolt list. Also finally trimmed the Fetid Heath, the BW is really nice T3 or later, but it does not at all regularly provide B or W T1 or T2, which is when we need our B/W most often, especially with the addition of push. I took it out to get up to 3 main deck GQs, 2 caverns, and still be at 13B/13C/12W for lands. I've been messing around with the land base quite a bit, and was quite unhappy with any list having a wastes in the main as it felt it cut into our colorless providing Utility landslots; the latest build is 1 short on B and W, but it also allows me to main deck 3 GQs and only run 1 wastes for lands in the side. Im just not satisifed with 2 GQs in the 75 but i also want to keep 2 caverns. The move of CoBr to the main and third GQ to the main has allowed me to shore up the sideboard to allow 2 stonies and 2 surgicals. Even with the shortness of 1 B/W land, it's the list that im overall the most satisfied with.
I gotta say, you and I see pretty eye-to-eye about what makes this deck work, Tituba9. I agree 100% about having 3 GQ in the main, I think it's very important. And I too accept being a tad short of the ideal T1 B count, as a cost of playing the utility lands we do.
I learned about the trap of Fetid Heath back when I played another BW deck and a bunch (but far fewer) of colorless lands. I think it would be really good with Sculler though.
Here's where I am going for the first week or two, when I find some time to play. I cut a Relic (can't believe it!) and... I went to 61 cards main.
You'll notice I also cut Timely, though I have enough respect for Burn that I'm not too comfortable with that, especially if Burn moves to a more spell-based approach.
I have one Surgical main because I want to hit Tron with it in game 1. I figure since SE is "free" it's not really pressuring the deck in the same way as another card would, right? (Shut up, I know I lost a cantrip and gained a card-disadvantage piece, alright?!) But seriously, I meet a Tron and a Valakut player a lot at the top tables at my LGS so I'm gonna try it out again.
Three Pushes main for now, for fast aggro and mana dorks--and I want to actually see how good Push is, so I'll need to be drawing it regularly if I want to test it. The change to Push also made me decide to up my Flats to four, and cut a Caves. I fully expect to see dead Flats at times with this approach. Might be that Revolt is not as necessary as I think right now, though.
If I had room for 2x Cavern and a lot of control in my meta I would totally run two, but as it is I think one only is right for me.
I did not know that about Seal of Cleansing. Huh. Here is the Disenchant I own--agreed that most are awful looking, and I have a little pet peeve about not liking non-Modern card frames in my decks.
Gonna hold off on Lili V for now, for the reasons stated above. Also, I definitely do not feel like I want to lose the Relics, as they are a major part of this deck's gameplay. Push remains as a three-of main, with three Paths main, and one more in the side. I took out the maindeck Surgical Extraction, though, as I have been seriously reconsidering the wisdom of running 61 cards. Plus, Extraction is really pretty bad overall; it has a "high ceiling" for sure, but most matchups don't actually put us in the right room for that, so to speak.
Lastly, so far, Endless One has been pretty decent. There really isn't that much Fatal Push running around out there, actually, so it's 0 CMC cost is less of a downside. However, it does get wiped by sweepers like Engineered Explosives and Ratchet Bomb that opponents are likely to bring in for our tokens anyway, so there is that downside.
Either way I'd run only one, in a Reshaper slot. And I have no idea where I might squeeze in a Liliana, the Last Hope. Sorin is necessary for lifegain, as far as I'm concerned. (I tried Whip of Erebos for a while, but Sorin is so much stronger.) Soren's a lot easier to cast on-curve than Lili is, and he conflicts with fewer cards for his slot on the curve. And, I'm already at 61 cards (for now) as I debate the role of Relic, Mind Stone, Fatal Push, and Surgical Extraction in the main. Making room for one more seems pretty tough.
I would definitely suggest making some room for Fatal Push and trying to find room for all four Smashers. Against the meta you describe, I would expect my build to be good (in some cases very good) against all of it except for Tron, Breach Titan, and Merfolk, which are all hard matches.
TL;DR version of the deck changes: right now I have 3 Path, 3 Push, 3 Relic, 3 Strangler, 4 Reshaper, and 1 Extraction in the main, with a total of 61 cards. Thanks to Tituba9 and DCteamup for the ideas about cutting Relic and adding Extraction. I don't necessarily intend to remain at 61 cards, but I wanted to try out both Push as a 3-of, and Extraction as a corner case out to Tron and Valakut decks. Right now it is too soon to tell how I feel overall about the changes, but I do have some thoughts about some of them.
But first, a brief play report from last night:
vs. mono-W Humans: 2-0 (1-0)
I was on the draw. He started out much faster than me, but I was able to turn the corner easily by the mid game, with Souls chumping until I could Smash in for the win. Push was amazing here against his cheap dudes. I was able to trade a Reshaper for one of his attackers and flip it into a Strangler to get a second attacker in G2--that always feels good, and I have done the same thing to both a 5/6 Goyf and a 6/6 Titan before. Love Reshaper, especially when I can run it out T2.
vs. Affinity: 0-2 (1-1)
Kept a hand with Temple and GQ plus 2x Reshaper, 2x Seer, and a Smasher, blind on the draw--only to see him run out a T1 Opal/Drum/Skirge and then a Plating on T2. That game was over quickly as he flew over my head and I bricked on further lands. In G2 I kept a 6 with Flats and Temple plus 2x Push, Strangler, and Unmaking. I chose to fetch for a Shrine so I could play any of my cards that I might draw later, though I was worried about Blood Moon. I killed a couple of Overseers with the Pushes, but it turned out he had the Moon, and played it out on T4 to shut me off all my colors after I missed land draws for two turns. Flipping Reshaper into my sole Wastes was not enough to get around his big Ravager and Master of Etherium, and he took the win having drawn his hate while I whiffed on mine.
vs. Doubling Season/Superfriends: 2-1 (2-1)
On the draw again. He was able to get Season down in G1 and then go off with planeswalkers to overwhelm me. In G2 a lot of hand disruption kept him on the back foot and off his walkers, and Vault kept me out of range of dying to his Westvale Abbey tokens. In G3 he bricked by drawing only 1-CMC mana enablers while I Smashed him mercilessly.
vs. Jeskai Nahiri: 2-0 (3-1)
Cavern of Souls won me G1, keeping my threats coming. In G2 he kept a marginal 6 that I shredded with Thoughtseize and Seer. I was able to process his Ancestral Vision with one counter on it, targeting my Seer in my second main phase while he was hellbent, which tilted him pretty strongly. After that he bricked on sweepers and I ran him over.
Thoughts:
With practice, you will not worry about playing around Blood Moon, if you run Marsh Flats and Mind Stones, and a Wastes somewhere in the 75.
iostream, I like that you are thinking critically and testing with the deck. Some good ideas there.
1) I think Lili Mark V could be real good, especially if opposing Lingering Souls decks make an upswing. I also think she supports the crucial card-advantage aspect that is so important for the deck, by getting things back from the yard and by killing small dudes on the other side. My only concern is that lifegain is very important, and Sorin has saved me many time when in the single digits on life. I think that running Lili over Sorin probably means adding more lifegain to the side to compensate.
2) Endless One is an amazing late game play, far better than Reshaper. I might try one and see how I like it. I am still a huge fan of Matter Reshaper's replacement effect though.
3) Right now I am on 3 Path/3 Push, with Path #4 in the side. Too soon for me to tell how I feel about it, though I feel certain that Push makes 4 Paths bad.
4) I love the early game discard plan. I have reluctantly shaved those slots over a period of many months, and as you note, I only felt able to do it because of TKS--and because we have had a good T1 play in Relic, and now in Push. Mind Stone is more proactive in ramping threats out, and is better in the late game since it is not a dead draw in a topdeck war, but I do miss my reliable T1 disruption. I think this list is extremely tight--as I mentioned earlier I have not been able to get below 61 in my current build testing Push and a single Extraction in the main.
Good thoughts, thanks for sharing!
Against Jund, I have found the most success in embracing the topdeck war. If they don't stick a Bob then I can usually win this war. But if they do stick him it can be pretty tough.
You want targeted removal for creatures, and ways to deal with Lili. Look for Ghost Quarter, Souls, and Relic, of course. Fatal Push is real good against Jund's creature base. Pithing Needle and Ratchet Bomb should come in from the side, and so should Unmaking or Celestial Purge. Thoughtseize/IoK and Collective Brutality go out.
The top creature for removal, in my experience, is Kalitas--sandbag removal for that guy, if possible. Luckily Purge hits this card, because it is extremely dangerous for us. Kalitas turns off Reshaper's replacement effect, and if he starts making zombies then we're in trouble, because he's gonna get bigger than Smasher in a hurry while pushing the opponent's life total fast and hard in the wrong direction.
Here's my current SB plan vs. Jund (based on my current reconfiguration to accommodate Push):
Your point about Walker leaving behind the same power is very good; my point was that Push doesn't need Revolt to kill it. I dig that you are on board with the resilience/card-advantage aspect of the deck, which I think is crucial. I suspect getting Revolt reliably might be a little trickier than generally assumed so far, is why I brought it up. I think you're right about Stony and Needle.
I really like the Cavern a lot, despite the Souls plan, but YMMV of course. If you want more early BW untapped duals I think Courtyard is the clear favorite, but Sea Gate Wreckage is also a strong contender here to replace a colorless source.
My favorite thing about Unmaking is that it hits everything but lands and makes me feel I don't need to double-up with Disenchant and Purge, for instance. It feels like it frees up slots for me. The exile effect is also relevant in a few corner cases such as when playing against Academy Ruins and Keranos, God of Storms. No doubt it is much more painful to cast, of course.
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Concealed Courtyard is great, but so is Shambling Vent. Tough call on the right balance. I thought I'd try to do a little math here. My reckoning suggests:
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Still not too sold on running Eldrazi Displacer in this build, because it automatically becomes the best target for Bolt in our entire deck. But it's amazing when it sticks, though, it's true.
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I played Oblivion Ring for quite a while and decided that I wanted the instant speed and protection from Decay, Maelstrom Pulse, Qasali Pridemage, etc. But I have definitely found that I couldn't cast Unmaking before, due to either mana availability or life total, so it's a judgment call. Specifically regarding Tron, note that O-Ring is vulnerable to many of their cards, including Oblivion Stone, Karn Liberated, and Nature's Claim out of the side.
I think Push nudges us towards 4x Reshaper and 3x Strangler, cutting a Relic in part to make room for more than one copy of Push. Fatal Push kills things much better than Wasteland Strangler does, and Matter Reshaper is much better against opposing Pushes than Strangler is. Relics are still important, but considering that playing Push also makes running 4x Path to Exile worse, Strangler is starting to feel some pressure from multiple directions. Reshaper's replacement ability helps to offset losing a Relic draw as well.
I think Mimic could possibly lead to a very different CBW Processors variant altogether. It is true that T2 plays are somewhat lacking in the deck, though to be honest I don't find this to be a huge problem because the deck's gameplan is built around different sequencing. But if Processors did run Metallic Mimic, I think it makes Blight Herder better than Reality Smasher, maybe. (And I say that as a true believer that Smasher is currently far stronger than Herder, overall.) Mimic + Tokens + Sorin, Solemn Visitor could be busted wide open, I think. The tokens could be Spirits or Scions, doesn't really matter, and multiple Mimics in play would be nuts. I could see cutting several Stranglers for Mimic, with the intent of saving our exiled Processing targets for Herder. Thus would probably entail running 4x Path, plus 3-4x Push, to keep the exile flowing but also the creature removal count high. (Note that Scions easily turn on Revolt.)
BUT, getting Herder live turns out in practice to be MUCH harder than getting Strangler live, I can say from experience. And, assuming that Relic is still the best way to feed Processing--and I think it is--this approach would weaken us to decks that don't fill the yard. This build would go big on BW duals and lower on C lands. It would be easy to cut Vault, Cavern of Souls, and Wastes if we had a lot of other lifelink and fewer EMN Eldrazi, for instance. Then it would run Tidehollow Sculler (and maybe Eldrazi Displacer too? Having Mimic on the battlefield makes him Bolt-proof) but no Smasher or Reshaper. Displacer's flicker ability could use both Sculler and Thought-Knot Seer (which would become our only C-reliant card) to help enable Processing more reliably. With more duals and tokens, 2x Sorin starts to look really, really good. However this deck idea sounds potentially very slow to me, and I would probably only work if the entire meta slows down significantly, which I think is unlikely.
Honestly, I am not so sure about all that Mimic theory crafting, because Mimic dies to everything in a deck that otherwise makes removal bad. But anyway, that's my thoughts right now.
One feature of my approach to the deck is that I don't feel constrained in siding out all my Relics in matches where they don't hurt my opponent. Putting in cards like Herder and Scourge makes that less feasible. I don't really want Relic to be primarily about building my own game plan, I want it to be primarily about hurting my opponent, wherever possible.
There's little doubt that the Tron build has put up some results and is generating buzz in a way that Processors hasn't done, so there's that.
Processors will be much better against any graveyard decks and probably also against pump aggro, especially in a blind game one. Tron isn't going to beat Infect, UR Prowess, or Death's Shadow Zoo (and at least the first two decks will definitely continue to see play) without an early Chalice, for instance. Processors has much, much more removal, hand disruption, and Lingering Souls, to help out there. However, if they DO land Chalice on T1/2 they are looking pretty good in those pump aggro matches.
Processors takes more damage from lands (though less from removal) but it also has more lifegain, so the Burn match might be a wash? Don't really know. But Collective Brutality is about the best card in the world to have to combat Burn, especially when you can discard Souls to it. But playing the Souls game plan--as opposed to the big spaghetti game plan--against Burn feels pretty bad, when they have Eidolon on the table.
Processors is amazing against Affinity. I very much doubt Tron can compete with us in that match. But Chalice on zero on the play G2/3 would be real good.
Processors is pretty weak to opposing Gx Tron builds and to Valakut decks. Tron is likely better here because it can often establish a faster clock, given a good draw. But Processors has Stony Silence and early hand disruption, which are very good hate against Gx Tron.
Maindeck Relic is extremely good against any decks running either Snapcaster or Goyf, AKA the two most commonly played creatures in Modern. Relic provides a lot of siding room in matches where it's not relevant, coming out easily for other cards. But Chalice works the same way in siding out, I think.
I played a Colorless Stompy build with Simian Spirit Guide, Gemstone Caverns, and Eternal Scourge (I also tried Serum Powder but ended up cutting that) for several weeks, and it was pretty amazing at times for sure. (In one match I had T1 Thought-Knot Seer in both G1 and G2, for instance.) However, I have little doubt that Processors is much better overall against the wider meta than that Stompy deck was. In general, Processors is much more interactive, and Stompy and Tron are much more linear.
My build of Processors does not worry about Blood Moon. If you want details about how it makes sure not to let this card wreck my day I can go into more depth here. Tron is likely to be much, much weaker to Moon.
Most opponents who see you play BW duals and Eldrazi will mistakenly put you on E&T, which can lead to play mistakes. Others will think you're on tokens if you open with discard into Lingering Souls. It is frequently possible to sandbag lands like Temple or Cavern of Souls to catch opponents by surprise.
It seems to me that the Tron build is likely to be higher variance, especially because there doesn't as yet seem to be a consensus build. It can't always assemble the Urzatron reliably (not that it is trying to in the same way Gx Tron is, of course), and it needs its Chalice hate in many matches. Like Vial decks, getting that crucial piece of early interaction, which you have only as a four-of, is a big deal for the Tron builds. (To be fair, we need our Relic hate in many matches too.) Processors has more cantrips (Relic, Mind Stone) and fewer dead draws (no drawing a Map when you already have Chalice in play, or Ulamog when you don't have the mana to cast him) but Tron has the potential to be much more explosive. Overall I'd expect Processors to be better in a meta with a lot of BGx, Dredge, pump aggro, Blood Moon, and Snapcaster decks. Tron will be better for sure against a big mana meta. Since going places in a GP requires both skill and luck, the higher variance of Tron might get you places if you get lucky with matchups and draws.
Hope that helps. That's all I can think of anyway. Let me know if you want a guide to beating Blood Moon with this deck. Also, please feel free to copypasta my remarks over to the other thread to see what they think about my ideas. Good luck!
P.S.: I feel confident in saying that Smasher is much better than Herder nowadays, unless you expect a lot of Blue counterspells. The build has changed a lot from the old days.
Not a huge fan of the idea of splashing Red for any reason, let alone for a T4 play against Tron. The mana base won't support it.
I learned about the trap of Fetid Heath back when I played another BW deck and a bunch (but far fewer) of colorless lands. I think it would be really good with Sculler though.
Here's where I am going for the first week or two, when I find some time to play. I cut a Relic (can't believe it!) and... I went to 61 cards main.
1x Cavern of Souls
3x Caves of Koilos
1x Concealed Courtyard
4x Eldrazi Temple
3x Ghost Quarter
2x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
2x Shambling Vent
2x Swamp
1x Vault of the Archangel
Artifact (5)
2x Mind Stone
3x Relic of Progenitus
1x Anguished Unmaking
3x Fatal Push
3x Path to Exile
1x Surgical Extraction
Creature (15)
3x Matter Reshaper
4x Reality Smasher
4x Thought-Knot Seer
4x Wasteland Strangler
Sorcery (8)
1x Collective Brutality
4x Lingering Souls
3x Thoughtseize
Planeswalker (1)
1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1x Anguished Unmaking
2x Blessed Alliance
1x Collective Brutality
1x Damnation
1x Go for the Throat
1x Path to Exile
2x Pithing Needle
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Stony Silence
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Wastes
I did not know that about Seal of Cleansing. Huh. Here is the Disenchant I own--agreed that most are awful looking, and I have a little pet peeve about not liking non-Modern card frames in my decks.